Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Phantom Strike

[James Cook]

nch discovered a loophole in the Spaaace! rules where e might win a
space battle automatically if e doesn't have a spaceship when it comes
time to resolve the battle. I haven't been following closely enough to
know if the current opinion is that that works.

However, it's fairly clear that we can destroy and create spaceships
at will (creating only works if you don't currently own one), so
there's not much risk to destroying your spaceship. I recommend
destroying your spaceship just in case nch would otherwise win eir
battle with you, otherwise nch might get a Spaaace! victory. (E
initiated the battles in a message with subject "Phantom Strike".)

On Wed, 24 Jul 2019 at 15:02, David Seeber  wrote:
>
> I am completely lost.. What is going on here?? :0
>
> Get Outlook for Android
>
> 
> From: agora-business  on behalf of 
> James Cook 
> Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2019 3:48:23 PM
> To: Agora Business 
> Subject: Re: BUS: Phantom Strike
>
> > I destroy my ship named Theseus. As I have no ship, I create a ship named 
> > Theseus. I challenge Falsifian to a space battle. The resolver for this 
> > battle is R. Lee, the astronomor.
>
> I name my spaceship the SS Principessa Jolanda and destroy it.
>
> --
> - Falsifian



-- 
- Falsifian

DIS: Re: BUS: Phantom Strike

[David Seeber]

I am completely lost.. What is going on here?? :0

Get Outlook for Android


From: agora-business  on behalf of James 
Cook 
Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2019 3:48:23 PM
To: Agora Business 
Subject: Re: BUS: Phantom Strike

> I destroy my ship named Theseus. As I have no ship, I create a ship named 
> Theseus. I challenge Falsifian to a space battle. The resolver for this 
> battle is R. Lee, the astronomor.

I name my spaceship the SS Principessa Jolanda and destroy it.

--
- Falsifian

DIS: Re: BUS: Phantom Strike

[omd]

On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 3:43 PM Jason Cobb  wrote:
>
> Actually, everyone should destroy their spaceship. Then clause 3 has
> equal standing for both.
>
> I destroy the spaceship in my possession.

Me too.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Phantom Strike

[nch]

On 7/23/19 6:07 PM, Rebecca wrote:

Well fine, I resolve the space battle between nch and Jason Cobb by the
following steps

   "1) N Energy is revoked from each Spaceship, where N is the lesser
  of the Spaceship's Energy balance and the amount of Energy
  decided on by the Spaceship's owner, or 0 if the Spaceship's
  owner failed to do so"

nch opted to spend 21 energy, but no energy can be revoked from eir
spaceship because that spaceship doesn't exist and doesn't own energy.
5 energy is revoked from Jason's spaceship
   "2) each Spaceship's Armour is decreased by X, where X is the
  lesser of the Spaceship's Armour and the amount of Energy
  revoked from the other Spaceship;"
Oops, this is the real fatal flaw. I didn't realize X here was the 
amount revoked, rather than N. The final part of my plan was to CFJ 
"null < 1" (to determine N) but I suppose it doesn't matter now.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Phantom Strike

[nch]

On 7/23/19 5:57 PM, Rebecca wrote:

"These two

   players are the "combatants" of the Space Battle, and the two
   Spaceships are then "engaging" in the Space Battle until it is
   resolved."

So if "the two spaceships" don't exist anymore, nobody is "engaging in
the Space Battle"
The rules do not specify that there needs to be any ships engaged in the 
battle for the battle to be resolved. They need to exist for the 
initiation, and they did.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Phantom Strike

[Rebecca]

"These two

  players are the "combatants" of the Space Battle, and the two
  Spaceships are then "engaging" in the Space Battle until it is
  resolved."

So if "the two spaceships" don't exist anymore, nobody is "engaging in
the Space Battle"


On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 8:53 AM nch  wrote:

>
> On 7/23/19 5:51 PM, Rebecca wrote:
> > According to my interpretation of the rules, a space battle ends as soon
> as
> > there aren't two  spaceships involved. And so I believe (until a CFJ
> > directs me to believe to the contrary) that I have nothing to resolve
>
> Can you cite what clause makes you believe this, AFAICT battles only end
> when you resolve them.
>
>After both combatants have communicated the Energy they will
>spend, or if the time limit to do so has expired, the resolver
>CAN, and SHALL in a timely fashion, resolve the Space Battle by
>announcing the changes in each Spaceship's Energy balance and
>Armour (described below), and the Winner (if any) of the Space
>Battle.
>
> No other clause references a battle ending or being resolved, and that
> clause doesn't require the ships to exist at all.
>
>

-- 
>From R. Lee

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Phantom Strike

[nch]

On 7/23/19 5:51 PM, Rebecca wrote:

According to my interpretation of the rules, a space battle ends as soon as
there aren't two  spaceships involved. And so I believe (until a CFJ
directs me to believe to the contrary) that I have nothing to resolve


Can you cite what clause makes you believe this, AFAICT battles only end 
when you resolve them.


  After both combatants have communicated the Energy they will
  spend, or if the time limit to do so has expired, the resolver
  CAN, and SHALL in a timely fashion, resolve the Space Battle by
  announcing the changes in each Spaceship's Energy balance and
  Armour (described below), and the Winner (if any) of the Space
  Battle.

No other clause references a battle ending or being resolved, and that clause 
doesn't require the ships to exist at all.

DIS: Re: BUS: Phantom Strike

[Rebecca]

According to my interpretation of the rules, a space battle ends as soon as
there aren't two  spaceships involved. And so I believe (until a CFJ
directs me to believe to the contrary) that I have nothing to resolve

On Wed, Jul 24, 2019 at 8:43 AM Jason Cobb  wrote:

> Actually, everyone should destroy their spaceship. Then clause 3 has
> equal standing for both.
>
> I destroy the spaceship in my possession.
>
> Jason Cobb
>
> On 7/23/19 6:42 PM, nch wrote:
> >
> > On 7/23/19 5:40 PM, Jason Cobb wrote:
> >> Everybody should expend 10 energy in your Space Battle so that nch
> >> can't win (I was an idiot and didn't think on mine).
> >>
> > Why would that stop me? My ships don't have any armour to reduce, they
> > don't exist.
> >
> >
> >> Jason Cobb
> >>
> >> On 7/23/19 6:25 PM, nch wrote:
> >>> I destroy my ship named Theseus. As I have no ship, I create a ship
> >>> named Theseus. I challenge omd to a space battle. The resolver for
> >>> this battle is R. Lee, the astronomor.
> >>>
> >>> I destroy my ship named Theseus. As I have no ship, I create a ship
> >>> named Theseus. I challenge Aris to a space battle. The resolver for
> >>> this battle is R. Lee, the astronomor.
> >>>
> >>> I destroy my ship named Theseus. As I have no ship, I create a ship
> >>> named Theseus. I challenge Gaelan to a space battle. The resolver
> >>> for this battle is R. Lee, the astronomor.
> >>>
> >>> I destroy my ship named Theseus. As I have no ship, I create a ship
> >>> named Theseus. I challenge G. to a space battle. The resolver for
> >>> this battle is R. Lee, the astronomor.
> >>>
> >>> I destroy my ship named Theseus. As I have no ship, I create a ship
> >>> named Theseus. I challenge Cuddle Beam to a space battle. The
> >>> resolver for this battle is R. Lee, the astronomor.
> >>>
> >>> I destroy my ship named Theseus. As I have no ship, I create a ship
> >>> named Theseus. I challenge Trigon to a space battle. The resolver
> >>> for this battle is R. Lee, the astronomor.
> >>>
> >>> I destroy my ship named Theseus. As I have no ship, I create a ship
> >>> named Theseus. I challenge Murphy to a space battle. The resolver
> >>> for this battle is R. Lee, the astronomor.
> >>>
> >>> I destroy my ship named Theseus. As I have no ship, I create a ship
> >>> named Theseus. I challenge ATMunn to a space battle. The resolver
> >>> for this battle is R. Lee, the astronomor.
> >>>
> >>> I destroy my ship named Theseus. As I have no ship, I create a ship
> >>> named Theseus. I challenge twg to a space battle. The resolver for
> >>> this battle is R. Lee, the astronomor.
> >>>
> >>> I destroy my ship named Theseus. As I have no ship, I create a ship
> >>> named Theseus. I challenge D. Margaux to a space battle. The
> >>> resolver for this battle is R. Lee, the astronomor.
> >>>
> >>> I destroy my ship named Theseus. As I have no ship, I create a ship
> >>> named Theseus. I challenge Baron von Vaderham to a space battle. The
> >>> resolver for this battle is R. Lee, the astronomor.
> >>>
> >>> I destroy my ship named Theseus. As I have no ship, I create a ship
> >>> named Theseus. I challenge Falsifian to a space battle. The resolver
> >>> for this battle is R. Lee, the astronomor.
> >>>
> >>> I destroy my ship named Theseus. As I have no ship, I create a ship
> >>> named Theseus. I challenge Bernie to a space battle. The resolver
> >>> for this battle is R. Lee, the astronomor.
> >>>
> >>> I destroy my ship named Theseus. As I have no ship, I create a ship
> >>> named Theseus. I challenge Rance to a space battle. The resolver for
> >>> this battle is R. Lee, the astronomor.
> >>>
> >>> I destroy my ship named Theseus. As I have no ship, I create a ship
> >>> named Theseus. I challenge o to a space battle. The resolver for
> >>> this battle is R. Lee, the astronomor.
> >>>
> >>> I destroy my ship named Theseus. As I have no ship, I create a ship
> >>> named Theseus. I challenge Jason Cobb to a space battle. The
> >>> resolver for this battle is R. Lee, the astronomor.
> >>>
> >>> I destroy my ship named Theseus. As I have no ship, I create a ship
> >>> named Theseus. I challenge Walker to a space battle. The resolver
> >>> for this battle is R. Lee, the astronomor.
> >>>
> >>> I destroy my ship named Theseus. As I have no ship, I create a ship
> >>> named Theseus. I challenge PSS to a space battle. The resolver for
> >>> this battle is R. Lee, the astronomor.
> >>>
> >>> I destroy my ship named Theseus. As I have no ship, I create a ship
> >>> named Theseus. I challenge Corona to a space battle. The resolver
> >>> for this battle is R. Lee, the astronomor.
> >>>
> >>> I destroy my ship named Theseus. As I have no ship, I create a ship
> >>> named Theseus. I challenge L to a space battle. The resolver for
> >>> this battle is R. Lee, the astronomor.
> >>>
> >>> I destroy my ship named Theseus. As I have no ship, I create a ship
> >>> named Theseus. I challenge Hālian to a space battle. The resolver
> >>> for this battle is R. 

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Phantom Strike

[Kerim Aydin]

On Tue, Jul 23, 2019 at 3:38 PM nch  wrote:
> On 7/23/19 5:27 PM, Jason Cobb wrote:
> > Hey, I was actually going to do this :P.
> >
> > I will expend 5 energy in my space battle.
>
> Since this is about to get more broken anyway we might as well discuss
> this part: If I haven't declared the amount of energy I expend, which I
> may have secretly done, then this fails:
>
>* by publishing a salted cryptographic hash, and revealing its
>  text after the other combatant has also communicated the Energy
>  e will spend;
>* by sending the amount to the resolver in a private message;
>* by publishing the amount, if the other combatant has already
>  communicated the Energy e will spend.

The whole hash function thing is pretty broken anyway I was wondering
if an opportunity to demonstrate would come up but it might be worth
talking about now that we're clearly in debugging mode.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Phantom Strike

[nch]

On 7/23/19 5:39 PM, Jason Cobb wrote:
The list and requirement is only guarded by a SHOULD, so I think this 
still works.


In this particular case it works either way, I've already sent the 
message. But if I hadn't I think it'd be ambiguous.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Phantom Strike

[Jason Cobb]

The list and requirement is only guarded by a SHOULD, so I think this 
still works.


Jason Cobb

On 7/23/19 6:38 PM, nch wrote:


On 7/23/19 5:27 PM, Jason Cobb wrote:

Hey, I was actually going to do this :P.

I will expend 5 energy in my space battle.


Since this is about to get more broken anyway we might as well discuss 
this part: If I haven't declared the amount of energy I expend, which 
I may have secretly done, then this fails:


  * by publishing a salted cryptographic hash, and revealing its
    text after the other combatant has also communicated the Energy
    e will spend;
  * by sending the amount to the resolver in a private message;
  * by publishing the amount, if the other combatant has already
    communicated the Energy e will spend.

DIS: Re: BUS: Phantom Strike

[nch]

On 7/23/19 5:27 PM, Jason Cobb wrote:

Hey, I was actually going to do this :P.

I will expend 5 energy in my space battle.


Since this is about to get more broken anyway we might as well discuss 
this part: If I haven't declared the amount of energy I expend, which I 
may have secretly done, then this fails:


  * by publishing a salted cryptographic hash, and revealing its
text after the other combatant has also communicated the Energy
e will spend;
  * by sending the amount to the resolver in a private message;
  * by publishing the amount, if the other combatant has already
communicated the Energy e will spend.