Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proto: Stamps

[Owen Jacobson]

> On May 24, 2017, at 4:24 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:
> 
> It's monthly (though that's only stated indirectly), because an org can
> be destroyed if it hasn't paid the admin fee in a given month.

That may be the intent, but I don’t think that’s how it reads:

>>>  An organization is "In Bad Standing" if it a) has no members or b)
>>>  was not created this month and has not paid the Administrative Fee to
>>>  Agora.

Having paid the Administrative Fee once - possibly at the inception of the 
Organization - seems to satisfy this.

I’m not terribly fussed either way - periodic rent keeps shinies moving, and 
makes it easier to reap derelict Organizations, but doesn’t appear to 
meaningfully change the dynamics of Agora’s shiny economy.

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proto: Stamps

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I would be interested.


Publius Scribonius Scholasticus

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 11:20 PM, Quazie  wrote:

>
> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 19:39 Alex Smith  wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 2017-05-24 at 19:08 +, Quazie wrote:
>> > Proto Organization: 'Bing Bong'
>> >
>> > At the beginning of the game of Bing Bong each player SHALL pay the
>> > organization 1 Shiny.
>>
>> An Organization isn't a contract, it can't do a SHALL. If you want to
>> punish someone, you do so via increasing eir budget.
>>
>> --
>> ais523
>>
> Fair.
>
> At the beginning of each game each member is expected to pay 1 Shiny to
> the organization.  If they dont eir budget will be increased by 5 and they
> will be ineligible to earn a point.
>
> I'm aware the organization isn't near valid yet, I'm simply seeing if
> anyone would want to play.
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proto: Stamps

[Quazie]

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 19:39 Alex Smith  wrote:

> On Wed, 2017-05-24 at 19:08 +, Quazie wrote:
> > Proto Organization: 'Bing Bong'
> >
> > At the beginning of the game of Bing Bong each player SHALL pay the
> > organization 1 Shiny.
>
> An Organization isn't a contract, it can't do a SHALL. If you want to
> punish someone, you do so via increasing eir budget.
>
> --
> ais523
>
Fair.

At the beginning of each game each member is expected to pay 1 Shiny to the
organization.  If they dont eir budget will be increased by 5 and they will
be ineligible to earn a point.

I'm aware the organization isn't near valid yet, I'm simply seeing if
anyone would want to play.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proto: Stamps

[Nic Evans]

On 05/24/2017 04:37 PM, Josh T wrote:
Would a proposal that says to the effect of each organization that a 
player has created and still exists makes that player's next new 
organization more expensive? (Eg. A player's first organization costs 
5 Shinies, 2nd organization costs 10, 3rd 20, etc.)


天火狐


I still prefer my system, but to me this feels like a viable 
alternative. If it's prefered by others, I'll implement it instead.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proto: Stamps

[Alex Smith]

On Wed, 2017-05-24 at 19:08 +, Quazie wrote:
> Proto Organization: 'Bing Bong'
>
> At the beginning of the game of Bing Bong each player SHALL pay the
> organization 1 Shiny.

An Organization isn't a contract, it can't do a SHALL. If you want to
punish someone, you do so via increasing eir budget.

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proto: Stamps

[Josh T]

On one hand, I respectfully disagree that limiting the number of
organizations that a player can join "reduces the strategic moves
available". It just means that each player needs to think more
strategically about how to allocate their resources (which organizations
they join), which in turn makes each organization need to compete for
players (since organizations would die by not having players).

On the other hand, people aren't required to join organizations, and thus
is hard enough to get people to join without giving them a good reason to,
and having people be limited in doing so doesn't help. As stated, I agree
that the process outlined would result in a victory.

However, I do honestly think it is valuable that we can have organizations
not partake in the Shiny economy, if nothing else other than being able to
have a subsystem which doesn't directly influence the Shiny economy, and if
an organization is barred from owning a Shiny, they can't pay the
administrative cost, effectively banning such organizations. Would a
proposal that says to the effect of each organization that a player has
created and still exists makes that player's next new organization more
expensive? (Eg. A player's first organization costs 5 Shinies, 2nd
organization costs 10, 3rd 20, etc.)

天火狐

On 24 May 2017 at 16:26, Nic Evans  wrote:

> On 05/24/17 15:24, Nic Evans wrote:
>
>
>
> On 05/24/17 15:03, Josh T wrote:
>
> > [...] to solve the problem of orgs receiving assets they don't want and
> don't know how to deal with [...]
> I think it's valuable to allow orgs to not want to take part in the Shiny
> system if they don't want to.
>
> > Why play a game where I may lose some shinies and not gain a stamp when
> I could just save my shinies to farm more stamps?
> Because the stamps rule proposal says 15 *different* stamps, so someone
> angling for this victory has to get some stamps from sources they can't
> control.
>
> Create a shell org to buy stamps when they're cheap, and do nothing else.
> You pay 5 shinies for it once, and from then on you can buy 2 Stamps at the
> minimum price every month. When Stamp prices go up, sell the excess stamps
> to fund new orgs. After a couple months (assuming prices fluxtuate up and
> down, by as little as 2 shinies, monthly) you're making unique stamps for
> free.
>
>
> Clarification: By 'for free' I mean, without paying any extra. It's
> cheaper or as cheap to make shinies this way as it is to cooperate. A good
> economy is based on the value you create for others, not for yourself.
>
> If the Agora community as a whole doesn't want to encourage a player
> sitting on three organizations (the number I think is reasonable) farming
> stamps, the community as a whole doesn't have to accept that player's
> stamps.
>
> The Budget system works by acting as a streamlined currency. Everyone is
> 'paying in' to maintain the org, and the price per individual can go down
> as the org grows. A hard limit removes the advantages of trying to make
> inclusive orgs, and reduces the strategic moves available.
>
>
> Actually, I think I would support an addition to the rule which increases
> the destroy value of a stamp if a stamp of that type had not been created
> recently, giving stamps a hold value as well.
>
> That might be an interesting mechanic. Even without codifying it, rare
> Stamps may trade at a premium because variety is important.
>
> 天火狐
>
> On 24 May 2017 at 15:51, Aris Merchant  > wrote:
>
>> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 12:41 PM, Josh T 
>> wrote:
>> > On a more serious note, the proposal says that the organization needs
>> to pay
>> > an administrative fee, but the latest version of the Assets proposal
>> states
>> > that an organization can decide for themselves if they want to accept an
>> > asset. While I think the budget system is clunky, I would rather a
>> player
>> > pay a one-time administration fee to create an Organization, and have a
>> > restriction on how many organizations a player is allowed to be in
>> (which is
>> > my understanding a feature of the budget system) than force all
>> > Organizations to have a Shiny balance.
>> I'm happy to remove that section, or to grant shinies an exception. I
>> just added it to solve the problem of orgs receiving assets they don't
>> want and don't know how to deal with, which came up in a discussion.
>>
>> -Aris
>>
>
>
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proto: Stamps

[Nic Evans]

On 05/24/17 15:24, Nic Evans wrote:
>
>
>
> On 05/24/17 15:03, Josh T wrote:
>> > [...] to solve the problem of orgs receiving assets they don't want
>> and don't know how to deal with [...]
>> I think it's valuable to allow orgs to not want to take part in the
>> Shiny system if they don't want to. 
>>
>> > Why play a game where I may lose some shinies and not gain a stamp
>> when I could just save my shinies to farm more stamps?
>> Because the stamps rule proposal says 15 *different* stamps, so
>> someone angling for this victory has to get some stamps from sources
>> they can't control.
> Create a shell org to buy stamps when they're cheap, and do nothing
> else. You pay 5 shinies for it once, and from then on you can buy 2
> Stamps at the minimum price every month. When Stamp prices go up, sell
> the excess stamps to fund new orgs. After a couple months (assuming
> prices fluxtuate up and down, by as little as 2 shinies, monthly)
> you're making unique stamps for free.

Clarification: By 'for free' I mean, without paying any extra. It's
cheaper or as cheap to make shinies this way as it is to cooperate. A
good economy is based on the value you create for others, not for yourself.

>> If the Agora community as a whole doesn't want to encourage a player
>> sitting on three organizations (the number I think is reasonable)
>> farming stamps, the community as a whole doesn't have to accept that
>> player's stamps.
> The Budget system works by acting as a streamlined currency. Everyone
> is 'paying in' to maintain the org, and the price per individual can
> go down as the org grows. A hard limit removes the advantages of
> trying to make inclusive orgs, and reduces the strategic moves available.
>>
>> Actually, I think I would support an addition to the rule which
>> increases the destroy value of a stamp if a stamp of that type had
>> not been created recently, giving stamps a hold value as well. 
>>
> That might be an interesting mechanic. Even without codifying it, rare
> Stamps may trade at a premium because variety is important.
>> 天火狐
>>
>> On 24 May 2017 at 15:51, Aris Merchant
>> > > wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 12:41 PM, Josh T
>> >
>> wrote:
>> > On a more serious note, the proposal says that the organization
>> needs to pay
>> > an administrative fee, but the latest version of the Assets
>> proposal states
>> > that an organization can decide for themselves if they want to
>> accept an
>> > asset. While I think the budget system is clunky, I would
>> rather a player
>> > pay a one-time administration fee to create an Organization,
>> and have a
>> > restriction on how many organizations a player is allowed to be
>> in (which is
>> > my understanding a feature of the budget system) than force all
>> > Organizations to have a Shiny balance.
>> I'm happy to remove that section, or to grant shinies an exception. I
>> just added it to solve the problem of orgs receiving assets they
>> don't
>> want and don't know how to deal with, which came up in a discussion.
>>
>> -Aris
>>
>>
>



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proto: Stamps

[Nic Evans]

It's monthly (though that's only stated indirectly), because an org can
be destroyed if it hasn't paid the admin fee in a given month.


On 05/24/17 15:14, Gaelan Steele wrote:
> To clarify, is the admin fee a one time fee? This is different from the 
> current system (where there is a cost to maintaining an org, not just 
> creating one). 
>
> Gaelan 
>
>> On May 24, 2017, at 12:02 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:
>>
>> I submit the following proposal:
>>
>> Title: Organization Integration and Stamp Collecting
>> AI: 1.2
>> Author: nichdel
>> Co-author(s):
>>
>> Amend "Organizations" by replacing the second, third, and fourth
>> paragraphs with:
>>
>>   Players may become members of an organization by announcement as
>>   specified by the charter of the organization. Players may stop being
>>   a member of an organization by announcement.
>>
>>   An organization may cause any player to stop being a member as
>>   specified in its charter.
>>
>> [Remove Budget and make org membership more flexible.]
>>
>> Amend "Death and Birth of Organizations to read, in full:
>>
>>   The Administrative Fee is 5 shinies.
>>
>>   An organization is "In Bad Standing" if it a) has no members or b)
>>   was not created this month and has not paid the Administrative Fee to
>>   Agora.
>>
>>   If an organization is In Bad Standing for more than 7 days, then any
>>   player CAN destroy it by announcement, and the Secretary SHALL do so
>>   in a timely fashion if the situation persists.
>>
>>   Any player CAN create an Organization by announcement by paying the
>>   Administrative Fee to Agora and specifying a name for the
>>   Organization that is unique among Organizations and a Charter.
>>
>> [Replaces Budget with the Administrative Fee. Combined with giving org's
>> more control over their membership, it allows for orgs to raise money
>> and pay the fee in whichever way seems appropriate to them. Also removed
>> the limits on org membership and creation, because the price should be
>> a good enough limiters.]
>>
>> Amend "Organization Restructuring" by removing the text "Budget or", and
>> removing the paragraph starting with "2.", then changing "3." to "2.".
>>
>> [Budget cleanup]
>>
>> Enact a power 1 rule titled "Stamps" with the following text:
>>
>>   Stamps are a type of asset tracked by the Secretary. Each Stamp is
>>   identified by the person or organization that created the Stamp.
>>   Stamps created by the same person or organization are fungible.
>>
>>   The Stamp Price is always 4 times the current Pending List Price.
>>
>>   Once per month any player MAY, by announcement, pay Agora the Stamp
>>   Price, in shinies, to create one Stamp in eir possession. Once per
>>   month any player MAY, by announcement and as specified by the
>>   organization's charter, pay Agora the Stamp Price, in shinies, to
>>   create one Stamp in its possession.
>>
>>   Any player MAY, by announcement, destroy a specified Stamp in eir
>>   possession. Any player MAY, by announcement and as specified by the
>>   organization's charter, destroy a specified Stamp in its possession.
>>   Whenever an organization or player destroys a Stamp in eir
>>   possession, Agora SHALL pay em the Stamp Price.
>>
>>   When a player has in eir possession at least one Stamp created by 15
>>   different players or organizations then e may win by announcement,
>>   specifying each stamp e possesses. When a player does so
>>   successfully, all Stamps in eir possession are destroyed.
>>
>> [This implements what I described previously. Stamps are both a
>> speculative currency, with a changing value month-to-month, and a
>> valuable win condition. Also note that with the org changes, a single
>> player could create all the Stamps e needs, but it'd be more expensive
>> than gaining them via trade due to the Administrative fee.]
>>
>>




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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proto: Stamps

[Nic Evans]

On 05/24/17 15:03, Josh T wrote:
> > [...] to solve the problem of orgs receiving assets they don't want
> and don't know how to deal with [...]
> I think it's valuable to allow orgs to not want to take part in the
> Shiny system if they don't want to. 
>
> > Why play a game where I may lose some shinies and not gain a stamp
> when I could just save my shinies to farm more stamps?
> Because the stamps rule proposal says 15 *different* stamps, so
> someone angling for this victory has to get some stamps from sources
> they can't control.
Create a shell org to buy stamps when they're cheap, and do nothing
else. You pay 5 shinies for it once, and from then on you can buy 2
Stamps at the minimum price every month. When Stamp prices go up, sell
the excess stamps to fund new orgs. After a couple months (assuming
prices fluxtuate up and down, by as little as 2 shinies, monthly) you're
making unique stamps for free.
> If the Agora community as a whole doesn't want to encourage a player
> sitting on three organizations (the number I think is reasonable)
> farming stamps, the community as a whole doesn't have to accept that
> player's stamps.
The Budget system works by acting as a streamlined currency. Everyone is
'paying in' to maintain the org, and the price per individual can go
down as the org grows. A hard limit removes the advantages of trying to
make inclusive orgs, and reduces the strategic moves available.
>
> Actually, I think I would support an addition to the rule which
> increases the destroy value of a stamp if a stamp of that type had not
> been created recently, giving stamps a hold value as well. 
>
That might be an interesting mechanic. Even without codifying it, rare
Stamps may trade at a premium because variety is important.
> 天火狐
>
> On 24 May 2017 at 15:51, Aris Merchant
>  > wrote:
>
> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 12:41 PM, Josh T
> >
> wrote:
> > On a more serious note, the proposal says that the organization
> needs to pay
> > an administrative fee, but the latest version of the Assets
> proposal states
> > that an organization can decide for themselves if they want to
> accept an
> > asset. While I think the budget system is clunky, I would rather
> a player
> > pay a one-time administration fee to create an Organization, and
> have a
> > restriction on how many organizations a player is allowed to be
> in (which is
> > my understanding a feature of the budget system) than force all
> > Organizations to have a Shiny balance.
> I'm happy to remove that section, or to grant shinies an exception. I
> just added it to solve the problem of orgs receiving assets they don't
> want and don't know how to deal with, which came up in a discussion.
>
> -Aris
>
>



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DIS: Re: BUS: Proto: Stamps

[Gaelan Steele]

To clarify, is the admin fee a one time fee? This is different from the current 
system (where there is a cost to maintaining an org, not just creating one). 

Gaelan 

> On May 24, 2017, at 12:02 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:
> 
> I submit the following proposal:
> 
> Title: Organization Integration and Stamp Collecting
> AI: 1.2
> Author: nichdel
> Co-author(s):
> 
> Amend "Organizations" by replacing the second, third, and fourth
> paragraphs with:
> 
>   Players may become members of an organization by announcement as
>   specified by the charter of the organization. Players may stop being
>   a member of an organization by announcement.
> 
>   An organization may cause any player to stop being a member as
>   specified in its charter.
> 
> [Remove Budget and make org membership more flexible.]
> 
> Amend "Death and Birth of Organizations to read, in full:
> 
>   The Administrative Fee is 5 shinies.
> 
>   An organization is "In Bad Standing" if it a) has no members or b)
>   was not created this month and has not paid the Administrative Fee to
>   Agora.
> 
>   If an organization is In Bad Standing for more than 7 days, then any
>   player CAN destroy it by announcement, and the Secretary SHALL do so
>   in a timely fashion if the situation persists.
> 
>   Any player CAN create an Organization by announcement by paying the
>   Administrative Fee to Agora and specifying a name for the
>   Organization that is unique among Organizations and a Charter.
> 
> [Replaces Budget with the Administrative Fee. Combined with giving org's
> more control over their membership, it allows for orgs to raise money
> and pay the fee in whichever way seems appropriate to them. Also removed
> the limits on org membership and creation, because the price should be
> a good enough limiters.]
> 
> Amend "Organization Restructuring" by removing the text "Budget or", and
> removing the paragraph starting with "2.", then changing "3." to "2.".
> 
> [Budget cleanup]
> 
> Enact a power 1 rule titled "Stamps" with the following text:
> 
>   Stamps are a type of asset tracked by the Secretary. Each Stamp is
>   identified by the person or organization that created the Stamp.
>   Stamps created by the same person or organization are fungible.
> 
>   The Stamp Price is always 4 times the current Pending List Price.
> 
>   Once per month any player MAY, by announcement, pay Agora the Stamp
>   Price, in shinies, to create one Stamp in eir possession. Once per
>   month any player MAY, by announcement and as specified by the
>   organization's charter, pay Agora the Stamp Price, in shinies, to
>   create one Stamp in its possession.
> 
>   Any player MAY, by announcement, destroy a specified Stamp in eir
>   possession. Any player MAY, by announcement and as specified by the
>   organization's charter, destroy a specified Stamp in its possession.
>   Whenever an organization or player destroys a Stamp in eir
>   possession, Agora SHALL pay em the Stamp Price.
> 
>   When a player has in eir possession at least one Stamp created by 15
>   different players or organizations then e may win by announcement,
>   specifying each stamp e possesses. When a player does so
>   successfully, all Stamps in eir possession are destroyed.
> 
> [This implements what I described previously. Stamps are both a
> speculative currency, with a changing value month-to-month, and a
> valuable win condition. Also note that with the org changes, a single
> player could create all the Stamps e needs, but it'd be more expensive
> than gaining them via trade due to the Administrative fee.]
> 
> 

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proto: Stamps

[Josh T]

> [...] to solve the problem of orgs receiving assets they don't want and
don't know how to deal with [...]
I think it's valuable to allow orgs to not want to take part in the Shiny
system if they don't want to.

> Why play a game where I may lose some shinies and not gain a stamp when I
could just save my shinies to farm more stamps?
Because the stamps rule proposal says 15 *different* stamps, so someone
angling for this victory has to get some stamps from sources they can't
control. If the Agora community as a whole doesn't want to encourage a
player sitting on three organizations (the number I think is reasonable)
farming stamps, the community as a whole doesn't have to accept that
player's stamps.

Actually, I think I would support an addition to the rule which increases
the destroy value of a stamp if a stamp of that type had not been created
recently, giving stamps a hold value as well.

天火狐

On 24 May 2017 at 15:51, Aris Merchant 
wrote:

> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 12:41 PM, Josh T 
> wrote:
> > On a more serious note, the proposal says that the organization needs to
> pay
> > an administrative fee, but the latest version of the Assets proposal
> states
> > that an organization can decide for themselves if they want to accept an
> > asset. While I think the budget system is clunky, I would rather a player
> > pay a one-time administration fee to create an Organization, and have a
> > restriction on how many organizations a player is allowed to be in
> (which is
> > my understanding a feature of the budget system) than force all
> > Organizations to have a Shiny balance.
> I'm happy to remove that section, or to grant shinies an exception. I
> just added it to solve the problem of orgs receiving assets they don't
> want and don't know how to deal with, which came up in a discussion.
>
> -Aris
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proto: Stamps

[Aris Merchant]

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 12:41 PM, Josh T  wrote:
> On a more serious note, the proposal says that the organization needs to pay
> an administrative fee, but the latest version of the Assets proposal states
> that an organization can decide for themselves if they want to accept an
> asset. While I think the budget system is clunky, I would rather a player
> pay a one-time administration fee to create an Organization, and have a
> restriction on how many organizations a player is allowed to be in (which is
> my understanding a feature of the budget system) than force all
> Organizations to have a Shiny balance.
I'm happy to remove that section, or to grant shinies an exception. I
just added it to solve the problem of orgs receiving assets they don't
want and don't know how to deal with, which came up in a discussion.

-Aris

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proto: Stamps

[Nic Evans]

On 05/24/17 14:41, Josh T wrote:
> We'd have to see Stamp Collecting pass anyway. As for the Bing Bong
> game itself, I'd have to see how it plays out first. 
>
> On a more serious note, the proposal says that the organization needs
> to pay an administrative fee, but the latest version of the Assets
> proposal states that an organization can decide for themselves if they
> want to accept an asset. While I think the budget system is clunky, I
> would rather a player pay a one-time administration fee to create an
> Organization, and have a restriction on how many organizations a
> player is allowed to be in (which is my understanding a feature of the
> budget system) than force all Organizations to have a Shiny balance. 
>

I'm not fond of this. It would encourage players to create their own
orgs to farm Stamps from instead of creating cooperative orgs like Bing
Bong or AAaAA (which will be updated to a Stamp penny auction). Why play
a game where I may lose some shinies and not gain a stamp when I could
just save my shinies to farm more stamps?

> 天火狐
>
> On 24 May 2017 at 15:31, Quazie  > wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 12:30 Josh T  > wrote:
>
> > At the beginning of the game of Bing Bong each player SHALL
> pay the organization 1 Shiny.
>
> I object to being obliged to pay the organization 1 Shiny even
> if I do not wish to partake in Bing Bong. 
>
> 天火狐
>
>
> Each member obviously - i was simply throwing out a simple game
> idea to see if others were interested - I can't even make/join
> organizations for another month or so.
>
>
>
>
> On 24 May 2017 at 15:08, Quazie  > wrote:
>
> Proto Organization: 'Bing Bong'
>
> [Organization standard stuff]
>
> There exists a game master, originally the creator of this
> organization.
>
> If a game of Bing Bong is not ongoing, a game of Bing Bong
> can be started with 24 hours notice.
>
> At the beginning of the game of Bing Bong each player
> SHALL pay the organization 1 Shiny.
>
> At the beginning of a game of Bing Bong the set of players
> of the game of Bing Bong is the set of members of this org.
>
> No player may join the org while a game is ongoing.
>
> A game starts with a list of players, to be treated as a
> circular array, with the game master in the first
> position, and a direction, Bing or Bong.
>
> When a player is in the first position of this list, they
> have 24 hours to publicly declare, within the Game Thread
> either Bing or Bong.
>
> If a player declares Bing then the array shifts left.
>
> If a player declares Bong then the array shifts right.
>
> If a player doesn't declare Bing or Bong in 24 hours then
> they are removed from the list, and the array shifts in
> such a way as if the player had declared Bing.
>
> When there is only 1 player left, that player gets a point.
>
> When the organization has enough shinies to buy a stamp,
> it does, and awards it to the player with the most points
> at that time - at that point all players points reset to 0.
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 12:00 PM Nic Evans
> > wrote:
>
> I submit the following proposal:
>
> Title: Organization Integration and Stamp Collecting
> AI: 1.2
> Author: nichdel
> Co-author(s):
>
> Amend "Organizations" by replacing the second, third,
> and fourth
> paragraphs with:
>
>Players may become members of an organization by
> announcement as
>specified by the charter of the organization.
> Players may stop being
>a member of an organization by announcement.
>
>An organization may cause any player to stop being
> a member as
>specified in its charter.
>
> [Remove Budget and make org membership more flexible.]
>
> Amend "Death and Birth of Organizations to read, in full:
>
>The Administrative Fee is 5 shinies.
>
>An organization is "In Bad Standing" if it a) has
> no members or b)
>was not created this month and has not paid the
> Administrative Fee to
>Agora.
>
>If an organization is In Bad Standing for more than
> 

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proto: Stamps

[Josh T]

We'd have to see Stamp Collecting pass anyway. As for the Bing Bong game
itself, I'd have to see how it plays out first.

On a more serious note, the proposal says that the organization needs to
pay an administrative fee, but the latest version of the Assets proposal
states that an organization can decide for themselves if they want to
accept an asset. While I think the budget system is clunky, I would rather
a player pay a one-time administration fee to create an Organization, and
have a restriction on how many organizations a player is allowed to be in
(which is my understanding a feature of the budget system) than force all
Organizations to have a Shiny balance.

天火狐

On 24 May 2017 at 15:31, Quazie  wrote:

>
> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 12:30 Josh T  wrote:
>
>> > At the beginning of the game of Bing Bong each player SHALL pay the
>> organization 1 Shiny.
>>
>> I object to being obliged to pay the organization 1 Shiny even if I do
>> not wish to partake in Bing Bong.
>>
>> 天火狐
>>
>
> Each member obviously - i was simply throwing out a simple game idea to
> see if others were interested - I can't even make/join organizations for
> another month or so.
>
>
>
>
>> On 24 May 2017 at 15:08, Quazie  wrote:
>>
>>> Proto Organization: 'Bing Bong'
>>>
>>> [Organization standard stuff]
>>>
>>> There exists a game master, originally the creator of this organization.
>>>
>>> If a game of Bing Bong is not ongoing, a game of Bing Bong can be
>>> started with 24 hours notice.
>>>
>>> At the beginning of the game of Bing Bong each player SHALL pay the
>>> organization 1 Shiny.
>>>
>>> At the beginning of a game of Bing Bong the set of players of the game
>>> of Bing Bong is the set of members of this org.
>>>
>>> No player may join the org while a game is ongoing.
>>>
>>> A game starts with a list of players, to be treated as a circular array,
>>> with the game master in the first position, and a direction, Bing or Bong.
>>>
>>> When a player is in the first position of this list, they have 24 hours
>>> to publicly declare, within the Game Thread either Bing or Bong.
>>>
>>> If a player declares Bing then the array shifts left.
>>>
>>> If a player declares Bong then the array shifts right.
>>>
>>> If a player doesn't declare Bing or Bong in 24 hours then they are
>>> removed from the list, and the array shifts in such a way as if the player
>>> had declared Bing.
>>>
>>> When there is only 1 player left, that player gets a point.
>>>
>>> When the organization has enough shinies to buy a stamp, it does, and
>>> awards it to the player with the most points at that time - at that point
>>> all players points reset to 0.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 12:00 PM Nic Evans  wrote:
>>>
 I submit the following proposal:

 Title: Organization Integration and Stamp Collecting
 AI: 1.2
 Author: nichdel
 Co-author(s):

 Amend "Organizations" by replacing the second, third, and fourth
 paragraphs with:

Players may become members of an organization by announcement as
specified by the charter of the organization. Players may stop being
a member of an organization by announcement.

An organization may cause any player to stop being a member as
specified in its charter.

 [Remove Budget and make org membership more flexible.]

 Amend "Death and Birth of Organizations to read, in full:

The Administrative Fee is 5 shinies.

An organization is "In Bad Standing" if it a) has no members or b)
was not created this month and has not paid the Administrative Fee to
Agora.

If an organization is In Bad Standing for more than 7 days, then any
player CAN destroy it by announcement, and the Secretary SHALL do so
in a timely fashion if the situation persists.

Any player CAN create an Organization by announcement by paying the
Administrative Fee to Agora and specifying a name for the
Organization that is unique among Organizations and a Charter.

 [Replaces Budget with the Administrative Fee. Combined with giving org's
 more control over their membership, it allows for orgs to raise money
 and pay the fee in whichever way seems appropriate to them. Also removed
 the limits on org membership and creation, because the price should be
 a good enough limiters.]

 Amend "Organization Restructuring" by removing the text "Budget or", and
 removing the paragraph starting with "2.", then changing "3." to "2.".

 [Budget cleanup]

 Enact a power 1 rule titled "Stamps" with the following text:

Stamps are a type of asset tracked by the Secretary. Each Stamp is
identified by the person or organization that created the Stamp.
Stamps created by the same person or organization are fungible.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proto: Stamps

[Quazie]

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 12:30 Josh T  wrote:

> > At the beginning of the game of Bing Bong each player SHALL pay the
> organization 1 Shiny.
>
> I object to being obliged to pay the organization 1 Shiny even if I do not
> wish to partake in Bing Bong.
>
> 天火狐
>

Each member obviously - i was simply throwing out a simple game idea to see
if others were interested - I can't even make/join organizations for
another month or so.




> On 24 May 2017 at 15:08, Quazie  wrote:
>
>> Proto Organization: 'Bing Bong'
>>
>> [Organization standard stuff]
>>
>> There exists a game master, originally the creator of this organization.
>>
>> If a game of Bing Bong is not ongoing, a game of Bing Bong can be started
>> with 24 hours notice.
>>
>> At the beginning of the game of Bing Bong each player SHALL pay the
>> organization 1 Shiny.
>>
>> At the beginning of a game of Bing Bong the set of players of the game of
>> Bing Bong is the set of members of this org.
>>
>> No player may join the org while a game is ongoing.
>>
>> A game starts with a list of players, to be treated as a circular array,
>> with the game master in the first position, and a direction, Bing or Bong.
>>
>> When a player is in the first position of this list, they have 24 hours
>> to publicly declare, within the Game Thread either Bing or Bong.
>>
>> If a player declares Bing then the array shifts left.
>>
>> If a player declares Bong then the array shifts right.
>>
>> If a player doesn't declare Bing or Bong in 24 hours then they are
>> removed from the list, and the array shifts in such a way as if the player
>> had declared Bing.
>>
>> When there is only 1 player left, that player gets a point.
>>
>> When the organization has enough shinies to buy a stamp, it does, and
>> awards it to the player with the most points at that time - at that point
>> all players points reset to 0.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 12:00 PM Nic Evans  wrote:
>>
>>> I submit the following proposal:
>>>
>>> Title: Organization Integration and Stamp Collecting
>>> AI: 1.2
>>> Author: nichdel
>>> Co-author(s):
>>>
>>> Amend "Organizations" by replacing the second, third, and fourth
>>> paragraphs with:
>>>
>>>Players may become members of an organization by announcement as
>>>specified by the charter of the organization. Players may stop being
>>>a member of an organization by announcement.
>>>
>>>An organization may cause any player to stop being a member as
>>>specified in its charter.
>>>
>>> [Remove Budget and make org membership more flexible.]
>>>
>>> Amend "Death and Birth of Organizations to read, in full:
>>>
>>>The Administrative Fee is 5 shinies.
>>>
>>>An organization is "In Bad Standing" if it a) has no members or b)
>>>was not created this month and has not paid the Administrative Fee to
>>>Agora.
>>>
>>>If an organization is In Bad Standing for more than 7 days, then any
>>>player CAN destroy it by announcement, and the Secretary SHALL do so
>>>in a timely fashion if the situation persists.
>>>
>>>Any player CAN create an Organization by announcement by paying the
>>>Administrative Fee to Agora and specifying a name for the
>>>Organization that is unique among Organizations and a Charter.
>>>
>>> [Replaces Budget with the Administrative Fee. Combined with giving org's
>>> more control over their membership, it allows for orgs to raise money
>>> and pay the fee in whichever way seems appropriate to them. Also removed
>>> the limits on org membership and creation, because the price should be
>>> a good enough limiters.]
>>>
>>> Amend "Organization Restructuring" by removing the text "Budget or", and
>>> removing the paragraph starting with "2.", then changing "3." to "2.".
>>>
>>> [Budget cleanup]
>>>
>>> Enact a power 1 rule titled "Stamps" with the following text:
>>>
>>>Stamps are a type of asset tracked by the Secretary. Each Stamp is
>>>identified by the person or organization that created the Stamp.
>>>Stamps created by the same person or organization are fungible.
>>>
>>>The Stamp Price is always 4 times the current Pending List Price.
>>>
>>>Once per month any player MAY, by announcement, pay Agora the Stamp
>>>Price, in shinies, to create one Stamp in eir possession. Once per
>>>month any player MAY, by announcement and as specified by the
>>>organization's charter, pay Agora the Stamp Price, in shinies, to
>>>create one Stamp in its possession.
>>>
>>>Any player MAY, by announcement, destroy a specified Stamp in eir
>>>possession. Any player MAY, by announcement and as specified by the
>>>organization's charter, destroy a specified Stamp in its possession.
>>>Whenever an organization or player destroys a Stamp in eir
>>>possession, Agora SHALL pay em the Stamp Price.
>>>
>>>When a player has in eir possession at least one Stamp created by 15
>>>different 

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proto: Stamps

[Josh T]

> At the beginning of the game of Bing Bong each player SHALL pay the
organization 1 Shiny.

I object to being obliged to pay the organization 1 Shiny even if I do not
wish to partake in Bing Bong.

天火狐

On 24 May 2017 at 15:08, Quazie  wrote:

> Proto Organization: 'Bing Bong'
>
> [Organization standard stuff]
>
> There exists a game master, originally the creator of this organization.
>
> If a game of Bing Bong is not ongoing, a game of Bing Bong can be started
> with 24 hours notice.
>
> At the beginning of the game of Bing Bong each player SHALL pay the
> organization 1 Shiny.
>
> At the beginning of a game of Bing Bong the set of players of the game of
> Bing Bong is the set of members of this org.
>
> No player may join the org while a game is ongoing.
>
> A game starts with a list of players, to be treated as a circular array,
> with the game master in the first position, and a direction, Bing or Bong.
>
> When a player is in the first position of this list, they have 24 hours to
> publicly declare, within the Game Thread either Bing or Bong.
>
> If a player declares Bing then the array shifts left.
>
> If a player declares Bong then the array shifts right.
>
> If a player doesn't declare Bing or Bong in 24 hours then they are removed
> from the list, and the array shifts in such a way as if the player had
> declared Bing.
>
> When there is only 1 player left, that player gets a point.
>
> When the organization has enough shinies to buy a stamp, it does, and
> awards it to the player with the most points at that time - at that point
> all players points reset to 0.
>
>
>
> On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 12:00 PM Nic Evans  wrote:
>
>> I submit the following proposal:
>>
>> Title: Organization Integration and Stamp Collecting
>> AI: 1.2
>> Author: nichdel
>> Co-author(s):
>>
>> Amend "Organizations" by replacing the second, third, and fourth
>> paragraphs with:
>>
>>Players may become members of an organization by announcement as
>>specified by the charter of the organization. Players may stop being
>>a member of an organization by announcement.
>>
>>An organization may cause any player to stop being a member as
>>specified in its charter.
>>
>> [Remove Budget and make org membership more flexible.]
>>
>> Amend "Death and Birth of Organizations to read, in full:
>>
>>The Administrative Fee is 5 shinies.
>>
>>An organization is "In Bad Standing" if it a) has no members or b)
>>was not created this month and has not paid the Administrative Fee to
>>Agora.
>>
>>If an organization is In Bad Standing for more than 7 days, then any
>>player CAN destroy it by announcement, and the Secretary SHALL do so
>>in a timely fashion if the situation persists.
>>
>>Any player CAN create an Organization by announcement by paying the
>>Administrative Fee to Agora and specifying a name for the
>>Organization that is unique among Organizations and a Charter.
>>
>> [Replaces Budget with the Administrative Fee. Combined with giving org's
>> more control over their membership, it allows for orgs to raise money
>> and pay the fee in whichever way seems appropriate to them. Also removed
>> the limits on org membership and creation, because the price should be
>> a good enough limiters.]
>>
>> Amend "Organization Restructuring" by removing the text "Budget or", and
>> removing the paragraph starting with "2.", then changing "3." to "2.".
>>
>> [Budget cleanup]
>>
>> Enact a power 1 rule titled "Stamps" with the following text:
>>
>>Stamps are a type of asset tracked by the Secretary. Each Stamp is
>>identified by the person or organization that created the Stamp.
>>Stamps created by the same person or organization are fungible.
>>
>>The Stamp Price is always 4 times the current Pending List Price.
>>
>>Once per month any player MAY, by announcement, pay Agora the Stamp
>>Price, in shinies, to create one Stamp in eir possession. Once per
>>month any player MAY, by announcement and as specified by the
>>organization's charter, pay Agora the Stamp Price, in shinies, to
>>create one Stamp in its possession.
>>
>>Any player MAY, by announcement, destroy a specified Stamp in eir
>>possession. Any player MAY, by announcement and as specified by the
>>organization's charter, destroy a specified Stamp in its possession.
>>Whenever an organization or player destroys a Stamp in eir
>>possession, Agora SHALL pay em the Stamp Price.
>>
>>When a player has in eir possession at least one Stamp created by 15
>>different players or organizations then e may win by announcement,
>>specifying each stamp e possesses. When a player does so
>>successfully, all Stamps in eir possession are destroyed.
>>
>> [This implements what I described previously. Stamps are both a
>> speculative currency, with a changing value month-to-month, and a
>> valuable win condition. Also note that with 

DIS: Re: BUS: Proto: Stamps

[Quazie]

Proto Organization: 'Bing Bong'

[Organization standard stuff]

There exists a game master, originally the creator of this organization.

If a game of Bing Bong is not ongoing, a game of Bing Bong can be started
with 24 hours notice.

At the beginning of the game of Bing Bong each player SHALL pay the
organization 1 Shiny.

At the beginning of a game of Bing Bong the set of players of the game of
Bing Bong is the set of members of this org.

No player may join the org while a game is ongoing.

A game starts with a list of players, to be treated as a circular array,
with the game master in the first position, and a direction, Bing or Bong.

When a player is in the first position of this list, they have 24 hours to
publicly declare, within the Game Thread either Bing or Bong.

If a player declares Bing then the array shifts left.

If a player declares Bong then the array shifts right.

If a player doesn't declare Bing or Bong in 24 hours then they are removed
from the list, and the array shifts in such a way as if the player had
declared Bing.

When there is only 1 player left, that player gets a point.

When the organization has enough shinies to buy a stamp, it does, and
awards it to the player with the most points at that time - at that point
all players points reset to 0.



On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 12:00 PM Nic Evans  wrote:

> I submit the following proposal:
>
> Title: Organization Integration and Stamp Collecting
> AI: 1.2
> Author: nichdel
> Co-author(s):
>
> Amend "Organizations" by replacing the second, third, and fourth
> paragraphs with:
>
>Players may become members of an organization by announcement as
>specified by the charter of the organization. Players may stop being
>a member of an organization by announcement.
>
>An organization may cause any player to stop being a member as
>specified in its charter.
>
> [Remove Budget and make org membership more flexible.]
>
> Amend "Death and Birth of Organizations to read, in full:
>
>The Administrative Fee is 5 shinies.
>
>An organization is "In Bad Standing" if it a) has no members or b)
>was not created this month and has not paid the Administrative Fee to
>Agora.
>
>If an organization is In Bad Standing for more than 7 days, then any
>player CAN destroy it by announcement, and the Secretary SHALL do so
>in a timely fashion if the situation persists.
>
>Any player CAN create an Organization by announcement by paying the
>Administrative Fee to Agora and specifying a name for the
>Organization that is unique among Organizations and a Charter.
>
> [Replaces Budget with the Administrative Fee. Combined with giving org's
> more control over their membership, it allows for orgs to raise money
> and pay the fee in whichever way seems appropriate to them. Also removed
> the limits on org membership and creation, because the price should be
> a good enough limiters.]
>
> Amend "Organization Restructuring" by removing the text "Budget or", and
> removing the paragraph starting with "2.", then changing "3." to "2.".
>
> [Budget cleanup]
>
> Enact a power 1 rule titled "Stamps" with the following text:
>
>Stamps are a type of asset tracked by the Secretary. Each Stamp is
>identified by the person or organization that created the Stamp.
>Stamps created by the same person or organization are fungible.
>
>The Stamp Price is always 4 times the current Pending List Price.
>
>Once per month any player MAY, by announcement, pay Agora the Stamp
>Price, in shinies, to create one Stamp in eir possession. Once per
>month any player MAY, by announcement and as specified by the
>organization's charter, pay Agora the Stamp Price, in shinies, to
>create one Stamp in its possession.
>
>Any player MAY, by announcement, destroy a specified Stamp in eir
>possession. Any player MAY, by announcement and as specified by the
>organization's charter, destroy a specified Stamp in its possession.
>Whenever an organization or player destroys a Stamp in eir
>possession, Agora SHALL pay em the Stamp Price.
>
>When a player has in eir possession at least one Stamp created by 15
>different players or organizations then e may win by announcement,
>specifying each stamp e possesses. When a player does so
>successfully, all Stamps in eir possession are destroyed.
>
> [This implements what I described previously. Stamps are both a
> speculative currency, with a changing value month-to-month, and a
> valuable win condition. Also note that with the org changes, a single
> player could create all the Stamps e needs, but it'd be more expensive
> than gaining them via trade due to the Administrative fee.]
>
>
>