[android-beginners] Re: Suggestions on tutorials
I think you are correct about the tools not being mature enough. However it's a sad state of an OS where tools are require to develop because the process has so many moving parts, like dominos ready to fall. This reminds me of JavaServerFaces (JSF). Wow another XML debacle. Or the ANT build system. Once it got past then you had to start stacking on more and more tools such as antenna. Oh well thanks to all the zealots that completely twisted this thread into nothing but BS that didn't help anyone. (except for Niko20 who actually provided some real answers... thanks). I'm done with droid, it's not worth it. I'll wait till real tools are ready or they fix the metaphor. -Shawn On Nov 9, 4:22 pm, Jeffrey Blattman wrote: > shawn, > > you do not have to define your layout in XML. you are free to build it > up your android layout view programmatically, if you so wish. as a side > note, if you are doing any sort of development, on any platform, you > will be hard pressed to avoid XML. that's just a fact so don't kill the > messenger. > > what XML is good at is providing an easily parsable machine > communication mechanism. a lot of what you say is true, but only because > XML is being misused. the ADT plugin provides GUI wrappers around most > (all?) of the XML you need to write, but of course the plugin is lacking > so you quickly get to a point where you need to get into the XML. > > good luck. > > On 11/9/09 1:36 PM, Indicator Veritatis wrote: > > > > > > > If you really want to learn to code using the Android SDK, then you > > WILL use the XML. Otherwise, you simply are not using Android after > > all. In that case, you should give up your membership in the Google > > Beginner's group, since you will get nothing out of it. > > > On Nov 7, 1:20 pm, sfitzjava wrote: > > >> Wow thought I said I "Please no .. benefits of XML (BECAUSE YOU > >> ARE WRONG. [PERIOD])". > >> So thanks for wasting my time reading your diatribe and you are wrong > >> still. Sadly you would jump over a cliff if some > >> script kiddie told you it was the new thing to do. > > >> So to quickly cut through all of your BS. > >> XML in android is processed down to Java at compile time. > >> XML does not make your system any more flexible than writing it in > >> standard java (unless you don't know how to program) > >> XML is error prone > >> XML is not a programming language > >> XML is BLOATED! > >> XML is a data description syntax for communication between > >> heterogeneous system. > >> XML is a data description syntax which supports data versioning. > >> XML can not be debugged > >> XML has to be gen'ed into the R.class > >> XML tag has to match what is typed in the java code, and there is no > >> validation since the R.class is not constantly regen'ed. > >> XML is not validated, nor has any javadocs, nor has any code > >> completion support. > >> XML can not be visualized without building and running the app. > > >> Now if Google wants to make a decent tool such as Apple has with XCode > >> InterfaceBuilder (not calling xcode perfect but it does a very nice > >> job) then I don't care what they save their files in, and I will > >> happily jump back and forth if it saves me time, boilerplate coding, > >> code bloat that gets in the way of debugging, and helps with the > >> maintainability of the codebase. To date XML in android does none of > >> these. > > >> Also don't talk to me like I have no idea about technology, ESPECIALLY > >> MOBILE!!! > >> It is clear that you use technology and do not understand it. Your > >> use of the statement "XML is used everywhere" > >> as some type of validation demonstrates that. Millions of people > >> believed for hundreds of years that the world was flat, > >> that the earth was the center of everything, more recently that > >> Quantum physics was a pipe-dream. > >> If XML is the greatest then why was JSON developed? > > >> So unless you can answer my question you need not reply. > >> Again to be clear the question is, "Any tutorials for android that do > >> not require XML". > > >> -Shawn > > >> On Nov 3, 12:33 am, confetti wrote: > > >>> Shawn, > > >>> I'm not going to tell you that you should use xml because I'll be the > >>> first to admit, it's a hard thing to learn. However, saying there are > >>> absolutel
[android-beginners] Re: Suggestions on tutorials
Hmmm. Learn android, that was kind of the idea. And all of the intros to android brag there are 2 way to do it, all I ask is to find the information on the non-XML way. Looks like niko20 knows how to ask mr google better than I can, and knows how to answer the key question. I had hoped not to have the XML zealots trying to push the koolaid on me. On Nov 7, 7:00 pm, Kingcrowley wrote: > maybe you are just looking at this wronginstead of trying to mash > your knowledge into Android development, maybe you should learn > Android... > > On Nov 7, 10:01 pm, sfitzjava wrote: > > > > > Wow thanks David that was so helpful. > > > If there were tutorials that weren't made up of 99% XML I could. > > Here let's take LinearLayout. > > > http://schemas.android.com/apk/res/ > > android" > > android:layout_width="fill_parent" > > android:layout_height="fill_parent" > > android:orientation="vertical" > > > > So I can find a LinearLayout class. Great, now where is the setWidth > > ()... None > > Ok is is setLayoutWidth() Fail again. Hmm... Wait there is nothing > > in the LinearLayout > > class that sets anything related to the width. Oh wait it must be in > > the constructor, sure > > there is an Attribute object. I must have to set it there... what is > > this... > > The Attribute class is.. A collection of attributes, as found > > associated with a tag in an XML document. > > Noo... XML document again. Well isn't that just fun. I love > > how XML is so similar to the API. > > Not to mention the xmlns and having to prefix everything with > > android:. > > Wow could this be more seamless and fluid to understand... Sorry I > > meant confusing. > > > So you see I don't have time to weed through all the chaff to figure > > out > > which of the mickey mouse XML file goes in what special > > directory, and where to find all the XML attributes and sub-tags > > associated with a parent-tag. If Android was really Java then > > there would be no problem, or if there was a book/tutorial that > > would go through the various APIs and options to set up things > > it would be a home run. But there isn't, or that I've found. > > > Now you want to help or just be a smartazz?! > > > I'm writing in JavaME, Java, RIM-BB, Obj-C, RevTalk all in the same > > day, > > and don't feel I need to waste time on some squirrelly XML mess when > > I already know all that I should need to with java. > > > Regards, > > -Shawn > > > On Nov 7, 3:31 pm, Kingcrowley wrote: > > > > well someone with your knowledge of Java should be able to use the > > > Android API with the tutorials available to learn android in no time! > > > > Regards, > > > > David > > > > On Nov 7, 9:20 pm, sfitzjava wrote: > > > > > Wow thought I said I "Please no .. benefits of XML (BECAUSE YOU > > > > ARE WRONG. [PERIOD])". > > > > So thanks for wasting my time reading your diatribe and you are wrong > > > > still. Sadly you would jump over a cliff if some > > > > script kiddie told you it was the new thing to do. > > > > > So to quickly cut through all of your BS. > > > > XML in android is processed down to Java at compile time. > > > > XML does not make your system any more flexible than writing it in > > > > standard java (unless you don't know how to program) > > > > XML is error prone > > > > XML is not a programming language > > > > XML is BLOATED! > > > > XML is a data description syntax for communication between > > > > heterogeneous system. > > > > XML is a data description syntax which supports data versioning. > > > > XML can not be debugged > > > > XML has to be gen'ed into the R.class > > > > XML tag has to match what is typed in the java code, and there is no > > > > validation since the R.class is not constantly regen'ed. > > > > XML is not validated, nor has any javadocs, nor has any code > > > > completion support. > > > > XML can not be visualized without building and running the app. > > > > > Now if Google wants to make a decent tool such as Apple has with XCode > > > > InterfaceBuilder (not calling xcode perfect but it does a very nice > > > > job) then I don't care what they save their files in, and I will > > > > h
[android-beginners] Re: Suggestions on tutorials
Awesome links Niko20. Thank you!! Do you remember the keywords you searched with? That might help me better understand why my searches have not been working. As a side note about the magic of XML allowing you to redesign an app without coding. If you change your ui there is a 99% chance you are changing some logic behind the scenes as well. But now you have XML to change and make sure the R.class gets gened and that you used the write keyword from the R.class in your code. You see you have increased the likelihood of an error 3x. The XML in android is not read in at runtime like a CSS might be in HTML but is used to build java classfiles. And as far as I have seen the XML does not link data in from a model to fields. So really all the XML can do is provide some format and ordering support. Seems like a lot of effort and points of failure for such little return. On Nov 7, 8:47 pm, niko20 wrote: > I also found this article too: > > http://www.brighthub.com/mobile/google-android/articles/48845.aspx > > Perhaps you should increase your skills in google searching (since you > are saving so much time not learning the XML). And learn some manners > please. > > -niko > > On Nov 7, 8:45 pm, niko20 wrote: > > > > > A simple google search works fine, I was able to find this for > > example: > > >http://vinnysoft.blogspot.com/2009/08/xml-layout-in-java.html > > > -niko > > > On Nov 7, 8:42 pm, niko20 wrote: > > > > There isn't any need to be rude. > > > > And also the XML is there to allow seperation between the view of the > > > data, and the code behind the data. That way you can change the view > > > without having to edit any code. That is the benefit of using it. > > > > -niko20 > > > > On Nov 7, 7:00 pm, Kingcrowley wrote: > > > > > maybe you are just looking at this wronginstead of trying to mash > > > > your knowledge into Android development, maybe you should learn > > > > Android... > > > > > On Nov 7, 10:01 pm, sfitzjava wrote: > > > > > > Wow thanks David that was so helpful. > > > > > > If there were tutorials that weren't made up of 99% XML I could. > > > > > Here let's take LinearLayout. > > > > > > http://schemas.android.com/apk/res/ > > > > > android" > > > > > android:layout_width="fill_parent" > > > > > android:layout_height="fill_parent" > > > > > android:orientation="vertical" > > > > > > > So I can find a LinearLayout class. Great, now where is the setWidth > > > > > ()... None > > > > > Ok is is setLayoutWidth() Fail again. Hmm... Wait there is nothing > > > > > in the LinearLayout > > > > > class that sets anything related to the width. Oh wait it must be in > > > > > the constructor, sure > > > > > there is an Attribute object. I must have to set it there... what is > > > > > this... > > > > > The Attribute class is.. A collection of attributes, as found > > > > > associated with a tag in an XML document. > > > > > Noo... XML document again. Well isn't that just fun. I love > > > > > how XML is so similar to the API. > > > > > Not to mention the xmlns and having to prefix everything with > > > > > android:. > > > > > Wow could this be more seamless and fluid to understand... Sorry I > > > > > meant confusing. > > > > > > So you see I don't have time to weed through all the chaff to figure > > > > > out > > > > > which of the mickey mouse XML file goes in what special > > > > > directory, and where to find all the XML attributes and sub-tags > > > > > associated with a parent-tag. If Android was really Java then > > > > > there would be no problem, or if there was a book/tutorial that > > > > > would go through the various APIs and options to set up things > > > > > it would be a home run. But there isn't, or that I've found. > > > > > > Now you want to help or just be a smartazz?! > > > > > > I'm writing in JavaME, Java, RIM-BB, Obj-C, RevTalk all in the same > > > > > day, > > > > > and don't feel I need to waste time on some squirrelly XML mess when > > > > > I already know all that I should need to with java. > > > > > > Regards, > > > >
[android-beginners] Re: Suggestions on tutorials
Wow thanks David that was so helpful. If there were tutorials that weren't made up of 99% XML I could. Here let's take LinearLayout. http://schemas.android.com/apk/res/ android" android:layout_width="fill_parent" android:layout_height="fill_parent" android:orientation="vertical" > So I can find a LinearLayout class. Great, now where is the setWidth ()... None Ok is is setLayoutWidth() Fail again. Hmm... Wait there is nothing in the LinearLayout class that sets anything related to the width. Oh wait it must be in the constructor, sure there is an Attribute object. I must have to set it there... what is this... The Attribute class is.. A collection of attributes, as found associated with a tag in an XML document. Noo... XML document again. Well isn't that just fun. I love how XML is so similar to the API. Not to mention the xmlns and having to prefix everything with android:. Wow could this be more seamless and fluid to understand... Sorry I meant confusing. So you see I don't have time to weed through all the chaff to figure out which of the mickey mouse XML file goes in what special directory, and where to find all the XML attributes and sub-tags associated with a parent-tag. If Android was really Java then there would be no problem, or if there was a book/tutorial that would go through the various APIs and options to set up things it would be a home run. But there isn't, or that I've found. Now you want to help or just be a smartazz?! I'm writing in JavaME, Java, RIM-BB, Obj-C, RevTalk all in the same day, and don't feel I need to waste time on some squirrelly XML mess when I already know all that I should need to with java. Regards, -Shawn On Nov 7, 3:31 pm, Kingcrowley wrote: > well someone with your knowledge of Java should be able to use the > Android API with the tutorials available to learn android in no time! > > Regards, > > David > > On Nov 7, 9:20 pm, sfitzjava wrote: > > > > > Wow thought I said I "Please no .. benefits of XML (BECAUSE YOU > > ARE WRONG. [PERIOD])". > > So thanks for wasting my time reading your diatribe and you are wrong > > still. Sadly you would jump over a cliff if some > > script kiddie told you it was the new thing to do. > > > So to quickly cut through all of your BS. > > XML in android is processed down to Java at compile time. > > XML does not make your system any more flexible than writing it in > > standard java (unless you don't know how to program) > > XML is error prone > > XML is not a programming language > > XML is BLOATED! > > XML is a data description syntax for communication between > > heterogeneous system. > > XML is a data description syntax which supports data versioning. > > XML can not be debugged > > XML has to be gen'ed into the R.class > > XML tag has to match what is typed in the java code, and there is no > > validation since the R.class is not constantly regen'ed. > > XML is not validated, nor has any javadocs, nor has any code > > completion support. > > XML can not be visualized without building and running the app. > > > Now if Google wants to make a decent tool such as Apple has with XCode > > InterfaceBuilder (not calling xcode perfect but it does a very nice > > job) then I don't care what they save their files in, and I will > > happily jump back and forth if it saves me time, boilerplate coding, > > code bloat that gets in the way of debugging, and helps with the > > maintainability of the codebase. To date XML in android does none of > > these. > > > Also don't talk to me like I have no idea about technology, ESPECIALLY > > MOBILE!!! > > It is clear that you use technology and do not understand it. Your > > use of the statement "XML is used everywhere" > > as some type of validation demonstrates that. Millions of people > > believed for hundreds of years that the world was flat, > > that the earth was the center of everything, more recently that > > Quantum physics was a pipe-dream. > > If XML is the greatest then why was JSON developed? > > > So unless you can answer my question you need not reply. > > Again to be clear the question is, "Any tutorials for android that do > > not require XML". > > > -Shawn > > > On Nov 3, 12:33 am, confetti wrote: > > > > Shawn, > > > > I'm not going to tell you that you should use xml because I'll be the > > > first to admit, it's a hard thing to learn. However, saying there are > > > absolutely no benefits to xml is wrong. Ther
[android-beginners] Re: Suggestions on tutorials
; > I highly recommend, if you haven't already, seriously reading and > completinghttp://developer.android.com/guide/tutorials/hello-world.html. > Don't just copy and paste, but type the code in yourself by hand. > You'll gain a much better understanding of the interactions between > various pieces because you'll be forced to look closely at each part. > > On Nov 2, 10:55 pm, sfitzjava wrote: > > > > > I want to learn how to write android apps, let me restate that. I > > want to learn how to actually program the android using java, and not > > just type a bunch of XM(hel)L tags. Actually to be perfectly clear > > I NEVER WANT TO WRITE AN XM(HEL)L TAG EVER > > > Given this requirement (ABSOLUTELY NO XMhelL) is there any tutorials, > > books, videos that truly teach how to write for the android platform. > > > Please no flames on the benefits of XML (BECAUSE YOU ARE WRONG > > [PERIOD]) and I will not listen to you anyway. > > > Thanks > > -Shawn -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Android Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to android-beginners@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-beginners+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-beginners?hl=en
[android-beginners] Suggestions on tutorials
I want to learn how to write android apps, let me restate that. I want to learn how to actually program the android using java, and not just type a bunch of XM(hel)L tags. Actually to be perfectly clear I NEVER WANT TO WRITE AN XM(HEL)L TAG EVER Given this requirement (ABSOLUTELY NO XMhelL) is there any tutorials, books, videos that truly teach how to write for the android platform. Please no flames on the benefits of XML (BECAUSE YOU ARE WRONG [PERIOD]) and I will not listen to you anyway. Thanks -Shawn -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Android Beginners" group. To post to this group, send email to android-beginners@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to android-beginners+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/android-beginners?hl=en
