Re: Apple-Crop: Time article (More on same)

2007-03-26 Thread Daryl Hunter
That's an important point Arthur - of the thousands of heirloom (antique) 
apples, there are misnamed varieties, 
duplicate names, and synonyms, and many strains have been developed from them. 
A scab prone Baldwin might not actually 
be a Baldwin. It is not always easy to know if a variety is in fact true to 
name, or just similar. Scionwood gets mixed 
up when labeling, tags get lost, or people just forget what the variety was 
that their grandfather planted. I have grown 
over 150 varieties, old and new, over the past 35 years. This is a small number 
of varieties compared to the many 
thousands listed in various pomology books published over the last few 
centuries. The Book of Apples published in 1993 
by the Brogdale Horticultural Trust in England describes over 2000 varieties 
(cultivars) in their orchard collection. 
There are also repositories in the United States that have rescued several 
thousand antique varieties as well as 
accessions from Kazakhstan where all our domestic varieties originate from.

I read somewhere that all the apples described in the two volume Apples of New 
York (the Bible for identifying old 
varieties), published in 1905, were chance seedlings except one variety. 
Except for one, the rest were not deliberate 
crosses. The observation here then, is that over a period of several hundreds 
or thousands of years people would select 
chance seedlings that suited them best for propagation in their area. This was 
before the 1880's when chemicals were 
introduced to control diseases and insect pests.  If they lived in a warm, 
humid region which encouraged scab and fire 
blight, they would avoid planting varieties prone to these diseases. This was a 
form of natural selection and a type of 
informal breeding program. At least 90% of the old varieties I have collected 
from orchards (often abandoned) in my 
region do not get scab and this is a highly scab prone area.. Other varieties 
prone to scab here might grow clean in 
dryer regions without the need for fungicide applications.  This observation 
becomes apparent in organizations like 
NAFEX where members exchange varieties from across the country.

Wealthy is one great old variety that is highly resistant to scab. So is 
Gideon.  Both originated with Peter Gideon in 
Minnesota (chance seedlings also). The late Fred Janson (one of the founders of 
NAFEX) believed, from his observation of 
many years, that Blenheim Orange was completely immune to fire blight.  Sadly, 
such varieties were dropped from the 
market place when chemicals made control of diseases possible for susceptible 
varieties. Of course the concern for 
pesticide and fungicide on health has prompted the search for natural/genetic 
resistance in apples over the past three 
or four decades.  Dr. Robert Lamb did a lot of research in this area and 
introduced some wonderful new resistant 
varieties. None were perfect, some dropped early, or they didn't keep well, or 
were biennial, etc.  But still, there 
have been some very good resistant varieties developed.  Many growers have 
tried some of them. Redfree is one that gets 
a good reputation in some areas. Liberty, Prima, and Freedom are also good 
disease resistant varieties, but may vary in 
quality from region to region, and they may require more rigid harvesting 
requirements. There are hundreds more.

The problem with these new disease resistant varieties, or even many old 
heirloom varieties that resist disease, is not 
their color, nor their flavor, nor storage and shipping quality, but in 
marketing and public acceptance.

Daryl Hunter
Keswick Ridge
NB Canada



- Original Message - 
From: Arthur Harvey [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Apple-Crop apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 7:07 PM
Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: Time article (More on same)


Certainly in New England at this time, Baldwin is very close to scab immune.  
But not all
trees described as Baldwin are necessarily genetically the same.  Yes, the 
organic apples
grown in eastern Europe or western Asia would not meet American standards for 
appearance
or other qualities, although consumers seem to accept them.  So maybe there is 
something
we don't know.


--- Daniel Cooley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Mo, you're right about the breeding programs attempting to develop
 resistant varieties, but I'm not sure they've done it.

 Some history: up until the last part of the 1800's, with rare
 exceptions, the varieties of apples grown commercially were from
 chance seedlings. It was common in the early 1800's in New England to
 throw a bunch of seeds from cider pomice out and scratch them into
 the ground, in a year or two transplant the ones that looked
 promising , and then after that see which trees had reasonably edible
 fruit. Of course, there were named varieties, in fact, lots of them.
 One source I've read suggested that there may have been as many as
 14,000 named apple varieties in the U.S. at the peak in the
 nineteenth 

Re: Apple-Crop: Time article (More on same)

2007-03-26 Thread Daniel Cooley
The interaction between host and pathogen, for example, between apple  
and scab, is a two-way street. Heavy planting of any one cultivar  
puts tremendous selection pressure on the pathogen, particularly if  
the only way it can survive is to infect a host. We don't really  
understand all the ins and outs of resistance and pathogenicity  
between apples and Venturia inaequalis. However,f fungi and other  
microorganisms can change rapidly under selection pressure. For ex.,  
we have resistance to a number of fungicides, and in some cases it  
can develop in a matter of a few growing seasons. MacHardy's point,  
and I agree, is that strains of Venturia develop which are adapted to  
different cultivars.


So sure, people screw up when they graft and propagate apples. But  
host resistance is only half the story. Pathogens can and do change  
quickly when conditions demand it of them. Considering that the vast  
majority of resistance used in apple breeding has been a single gene,  
Vf, I'd bet that widespread use of those cultivars would soon lead to  
a strain of scab that could overcome the resistance.


The resistance present in some of the old cultivars is much more  
interesting. Chances are that there are more genes involved, and that  
therefore it would be more stable.


However, if the problem with heirloom or modern scab resistant  
cultivars is consumer acceptance, it suggests that consumers don't  
like them. Maybe that's why the heirlooms became heirlooms. On the  
other hand, people's tastes are becoming more varied and  
sophisticated, so maybe some aggressive marketing would do the trick.


Dan


Daniel R. Cooley413-577-3803
Dept. of Plant, Soil  Insect Sci.  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Fernald Hall 103
University of Massachusetts
Amherst, MA 01003   FAX 413-545-2115

http://people.umass.edu/dcooley/




Re: Apple-Crop: Time article (More on same)

2007-03-26 Thread Kathleen Leahy

Do triploid apple varieties have any increased level of disease
resistance? Sometimes multi-ploidy (polyploidy? superploidy?... whatever)
is related to pest resistance in plants, right? I guess in apples, if it
exists, it would be rather accidental, I mean nobody was exactly breeding
for such traits.
?
Kathleen

At 10:55 PM 3/26/2007 -0400, you wrote:
The interaction between host and
pathogen, for example, between apple and scab, is a two-way street. Heavy
planting of any one cultivar puts tremendous selection pressure on the
pathogen, particularly if the only way it can survive is to infect a
host. We don't really understand all the ins and outs of resistance and
pathogenicity between apples and Venturia inaequalis. However,f fungi and
other microorganisms can change rapidly under selection pressure. For
ex., we have resistance to a number of fungicides, and in some cases it
can develop in a matter of a few growing seasons. MacHardy's point, and I
agree, is that strains of Venturia develop which are adapted to different
cultivars. 

So sure, people screw up when they graft and propagate apples. But host
resistance is only half the story. Pathogens can and do change quickly
when conditions demand it of them. Considering that the vast majority of
resistance used in apple breeding has been a single gene, Vf, I'd bet
that widespread use of those cultivars would soon lead to a strain of
scab that could overcome the resistance. 

The resistance present in some of the old cultivars is much more
interesting. Chances are that there are more genes involved, and that
therefore it would be more stable. 

However, if the problem with heirloom or modern scab resistant cultivars
is consumer acceptance, it suggests that consumers don't like
them. Maybe that's why the heirlooms became heirlooms. On the other hand,
people's tastes are becoming more varied and sophisticated, so maybe some
aggressive marketing would do the trick. 

Dan



Daniel R.
Cooley
413-577-3803

Dept. of Plant, Soil  Insect
Sci.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Fernald Hall 103

University of Massachusetts

Amherst, MA
01003
FAX 413-545-2115


http://people.umass.edu/dcooley/




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