Re: [arch-general] OT: [arch-dev-public] polkit package upgrade patch
Op 11 aug. 2012 03:02 schreef Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no het volgende: On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 2:01 AM, Heiko Baums li...@baums-on-web.de wrote: [...] Like I said before, if you would support systemd, sytemd-tools and everything else related to systemd totally optional, and keep initscripts pure initscripts without any systemd stuff like it was before, I would say nothing. But since you really force the users to install this systemd stuff, you will have to live with such comments, and not only from me, as you should know. It's always funny in this subject how people seem to forget that udev no longer exists on its own. Despite the careful annoucements from Arch. I don't force anyone to do anything. If you see flaws in anything I do, then provide review, patches or bug reports. If you don't like the direction I'm taking initscripts in, then fork it and provide your competing version. To be clear: it has always been my plan to make initscripts and systemd as close to each other as possible and share as much code as possible. I strongly believe this is the right thing to do. If you disagree, then I think your time is better spent at coding a replacement rather than at whining. Just for the record Tom: some of us are very happy with your work on continuening Initscripts. It sometimes looks as if 'everyone' feels they must switch to pure systemd, I for one prefer the predictability of init. Keeper up the good work! Mvg, Guus
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On 11/08/12 02:14, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 02:03:51 +0200, Leonid Isaev lis...@umail.iu.edu wrote: If you disagree file a bugreport. Any hints where to file a bug report are welcome. Seemingly nobody is interested, as already explained by Heiko. But using dummy packages is just cheating. So I should do audio productions with a Linux, that is unable to use my audio card? How should I do this? Regards, Ralf Have you ever tried to report your problems with PA and your soundcard to upstream? -- Jelle van der Waa signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [arch-general] OT: [arch-dev-public] polkit package upgrade patch
On 10/08/12 23:38, Heiko Baums wrote: Am Fri, 10 Aug 2012 16:33:39 -0400 schrieb Brandon Watkins bwa...@gmail.com: Systemd and pulseaudio are completely different pieces of software with different purposes. Comparing them like that just because of the author is comparing apples to oranges. Sorry, it is not. I see that PA is totally not complete and doesn't support at least half of the professional use cases. And I see that it's the same with systemd. So what's the difference? They are both developed by the same person who seemingly doesn't have much knowledge about professional computer usage and only cares about some desktop users. With PA it's currently not such a problem since I don't need to use a distro or a desktop environment which forces me to install PA. With systemd it's worse since the init system is a very serious and important piece of the system. And if this doesn't support every professional use case and isn't proved to be really reliable, it just shouldn't be made to a de facto standard. And if I can't trust PA how can I trust an even more important piece of software written by the same person? Btw., look at systemd-cryptsetup. Yes, meanwhile my use case is filed upstream and allegedly and hopefully fixed. But it shows that at least one use case was just forgotten or in other words it was not well enough thought out. The latter is the biggest problem. Like I said before, some of Lennart's ideas may, say, seem to be quite interesting, and maybe sysvinit is also not the perfect init system. But Lennart's software is just not implemented good enough. If somebody doesn't care about the professional users when writing on software, would he really care about the professional users when writing the other software? Sure soon RHEL will switch to systemd with RHEL 7, so the systemd market share will probably continue to grow. Also SUSE seems to switch to systemd. With these major distro's taking up systemd, it's almost impossible that it's not implemented good enough. p.s. it's a bit lame to just blame Poettering since for everything he just iirc the maintainer of systemd. Since there are much more people behind systemd ( Kay sievers, etc. ) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [arch-general] When will LibreOffice 3.6 proposed ?
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 5:44 AM, Brandon Watkins bwa...@gmail.com wrote: Yeah, it does work. I had a read a few posts earlier saying that spellcheck was broken in libreoffice 3.6, but it turns out it was all hyperbole, they were just referring to this bug which is certainly not totally broken spellcheck: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53006 On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 8:29 PM, fredbezies fredbez...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/8/10 fredbezies fredbez...@gmail.com: 2012/8/10 Brandon Watkins bwa...@gmail.com: Spellcheck is currently broken in 3.6.0 afiak, so probably best to wait until the point release. Well, if you don't wipe previous configuration, it could be broken. And as there is PKGBUILD.36 files, will try by myself. Good to learn some more things on build process :D Get it build, wiped my previous profile, and spellcheck seems to work. Now waiting for 3.6.1 :) Until then, I will play with my homemade version :D -- Frederic Bezies fredbez...@gmail.com Please don't top-post.
Re: [arch-general] OT: [arch-dev-public] polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, 2012-08-11 at 09:56 +0200, Jelle van der Waa wrote: Sure soon RHEL will switch to systemd with RHEL 7, so the systemd market share will probably continue to grow. Also SUSE seems to switch to systemd. With these major distro's taking up systemd, it's almost impossible that it's not implemented good enough. Hm? Suse was the first distro I used, for good reasons I'm using other distros for serious work today. However, from time to time I install Suse, currently it's the outdated Suse 11.2. For my needs Suse often is much to unstable. I know an important Linux audio coder who is using Linux for serious work. Perhaps he simply has got more knowledge to set up Suse, different hardware and different needs. p.s. it's a bit lame to just blame Poettering since for everything he just iirc the maintainer of systemd. Since there are much more people behind systemd ( Kay sievers, etc. ) But who does aggressive public relations? Nobody, but Poettering. On Sat, 2012-08-11 at 08:15 +0200, Guus Snijders wrote: Op 11 aug. 2012 03:02 schreef Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no het volgende: To be clear: it has always been my plan to make initscripts and systemd as close to each other as possible and share as much code as possible. I strongly believe this is the right thing to do. If you disagree, then I think your time is better spent at coding a replacement rather than at whining. Just for the record Tom: some of us are very happy with your work on continuening Initscripts. It sometimes looks as if 'everyone' feels they must switch to pure systemd, I for one prefer the predictability of init. I agree that it's a good work, when he tries to give users the choice. I wonder why it's not wanted that people discuss major changes. On another list some people don't want that the default DE for a distro will become another DE. I like the switch to that other DE, but for me there's no need to rant against those who'll keep the DE that was used in the past. However, some people from that list rant against those people, they want them to stop discussing that on this USER LIST. IMO the best place for a discussion is a USER LIST. If there's a result, it can be reported to the relevant people. We often talk about the most people. Is there anything bad with marginalized groups, people that might not be able to contribute to Linux, but perhaps those contribute to other useful things? I wonder about the definition of the word community. Seemingly people don't read why people have issues and that people e.g. reported issues, since they always ask to report an issue to another place, to contribute, to pay somebody, not to forget at some point people are just stupid, have to much time etc.. Community? Regards, Ralf
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, 2012-08-11 at 13:05 +0800, Oon-Ee Ng wrote: On 11 Aug 2012 08:14, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: But using dummy packages is just cheating. So I should do audio productions with a Linux, that is unable to use my audio card? How should I do this? Regards, Ralf By installing a distro that doesn't force you to use pulseaudio. Oh wait, that's Arch. And whats bad with building a dummy package, if I wish to use packages with pulseaudio dependencies? On Sat, 2012-08-11 at 09:45 +0200, Jelle van der Waa wrote: Have you ever tried to report your problems with PA and your soundcard to upstream? Have you ever really read what people wrote and why we are against it? Regards, Ralf
Re: [arch-general] systemd fsck
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 6:27 AM, David Benfell benf...@parts-unknown.org wrote: 2) But I did notice an error that worried me--just because it looks worrying--as it came up: Aug 09 13:34:36 graton systemd-fsck[270]: /dev/sda3 is mounted. Aug 09 13:34:36 graton systemd-fsck[270]: e2fsck: Cannot continue, aborting. Aug 09 13:34:36 graton systemd-fsck[270]: fsck failed with error code 8. Aug 09 13:34:36 graton systemd-fsck[270]: Ignoring error. Aug 09 13:34:36 graton systemd-fsck[289]: /dev/sdb1: clean, 398077/33554432 files, 27916145/134217728 blocks Aug 09 13:34:36 graton systemd-fsck[287]: /dev/sdb3: clean, 647214/21102592 files, 26531961/84405504 blocks Aug 09 13:34:36 graton systemd-fsck[348]: /dev/sda4: clean, 1650719/59490304 files, 57620902/237931957 blocks Aug 09 13:34:37 graton systemd-fsck[320]: /dev/sda1: clean, 33/10040 files, 22152/40160 blocks Aug 09 13:34:37 graton systemd-fsck[293]: /dev/sdb2: clean, 4926903/67125248 files, 195736925/268500992 blocks /dev/sda3 is the root partition. Does your kernel have the ro option specified? I know little about this, but I think ext34 partitions cannot be checked while mounted read-write and the usual way of doing this for the root partition has been to add ro to the kernel command line, and to remount the root partition read-write after checking it. (Though running the check from initramfs might be an even better method, Arch here has an option for that.) -- Mantas Mikulėnas
Re: [arch-general] When will LibreOffice 3.6 proposed ?
I've updated the PKGBUILD.36 files for libreoffice and libreoffice-i18n in svn trunk. Every user should now be able to build the new version. -Andy signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On 11 Aug 2012 18:53, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: On Sat, 2012-08-11 at 09:45 +0200, Jelle van der Waa wrote: Have you ever tried to report your problems with PA and your soundcard to upstream? Have you ever really read what people wrote and why we are against it? Regards, Ralf And you're dissatisfied that the Envy chipset isn't supported, even though the project's stated goal is desktop users (translation stereo only). You may disagree with that goal and their definition, but the traditional solution to that is to get coding. Complaining doesn't change anyone's minds, especially when you use hyperbole (most users etc)
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
Am Sat, 11 Aug 2012 09:45:34 +0200 schrieb Jelle van der Waa je...@vdwaa.nl: Have you ever tried to report your problems with PA and your soundcard to upstream? How many times does it have to be said, that there are bug reports filed to upstream which have been ignored by upstream resp. which have been closed as fixed by first blaming ALSA for the PA problems, even if ALSA supports those cards perfectly out-of-the-box since years, then writing an obscure ALSA configuration which cripples those cards to simple stereo cards and now, after many discussions like this one, they suddenly say that PA is only meant for desktop purposes and not for professional purposes? How often does this have to be mentioned? Heiko
Re: [arch-general] OT: [arch-dev-public] polkit package upgrade patch
Am Sat, 11 Aug 2012 03:47:09 +0300 schrieb Thanasis Georgiou sakisd...@gmail.com: So you had a problem but when Tom wrote a patch you were unwilling to help test it? What part of I had no time to set up a VM. and I have only one stable system which needs to be stable and reliable. didn't you get? Heiko
Re: [arch-general] OT: [arch-dev-public] polkit package upgrade patch
On Aug 11, 2012 2:38 PM, Heiko Baums li...@baums-on-web.de wrote: Am Sat, 11 Aug 2012 03:47:09 +0300 schrieb Thanasis Georgiou sakisd...@gmail.com: So you had a problem but when Tom wrote a patch you were unwilling to help test it? What part of I had no time to set up a VM. and I have only one stable system which needs to be stable and reliable. didn't you get? Did you even read my whole email?
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, 2012-08-11 at 19:14 +0800, Oon-Ee Ng wrote: On 11 Aug 2012 18:53, Ralf Mardorf ralf.mard...@alice-dsl.net wrote: On Sat, 2012-08-11 at 09:45 +0200, Jelle van der Waa wrote: Have you ever tried to report your problems with PA and your soundcard to upstream? Have you ever really read what people wrote and why we are against it? Regards, Ralf And you're dissatisfied that the Envy chipset isn't supported, even though the project's stated goal is desktop users (translation stereo only). Personally I don't care for the Envy24 chip, since my audio card for sure has a much better hardware mixer. It's just that Envy24 cards are widespread, since those are cheap and they usually are better than onboard devices and many are stereo only. My Envy24 cards are for MIDI only. On non-audio user mailing lists there are often requests regarding to no sound. In the end most of the times it's pulseaudio that breaks audio for desktop users. Btw. do consumer nowadays not usually need 5.1 instead of stereo? You may disagree with that goal and their definition, but the traditional solution to that is to get coding. Today still most coders are interested that they don't break something. The coder we are talking about claims that the ALSA drivers are borked and similar strange things, when users report issues. IMO it's the task of this coder to rewrite the drivers, when those won't work with his software, since the drivers do work without his software. Complaining doesn't change anyone's minds, especially when you use hyperbole (most users etc) So most computer users do not use other operating systems? There are several reasons for this, pulseaudio isn't the only reason, but it has got much weight. To shut up won't change the situation. Btw. I'm not complaining only, I fix all my Linux installs and I help other people to fix their installs. But when I say using a dummy package will solve issues, than it's also not ok. Why don't ship distros with dummy packages for pulseaudio? I never noticed that a dummy package did break something, but even if it should break something, at least there are more advantages for those who can't use pulseaudio, due to their hardware. Today users have the choice to use DEs that don't need pulseaudio, but if we would be quiet, perhaps one DE after the other would make pulseaudio a dependency. Noise is part of how communities work. Silence would cause stagnation. Words about most people of cause belong to my broken English, if you like we could continue in German. I already said, that marginalized groups are important. However, I'll read what ever you'll write + I'll reflect deeply about your words, but I guess I've nothing to add to this topic at the moment myself. Regards, Ralf
Re: [arch-general] OT: [arch-dev-public] polkit package upgrade patch
Am Sat, 11 Aug 2012 03:02:03 +0200 schrieb Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no: Issues, serious or otherwise, belong in the bug-tracker. We have surprisingly few systemd/pulseaudio bugs open, considering all the noise they create on the ML. Is it really that hard to respect other people's opinions and wishes? Is it really that hard? Sorry, I didn't realise you were being serious. Of course you shouldn't delete them. If you don't use systemd they have no effect, and take hardly no space. But they take space on my harddisk. And even TB harddisks can get full some day. And not everybody is able to afford a new one at once. And I just don't want this systemd stuff on my harddisk. But, hey, it's really hard to respect other people's opinions and wishes. I understand. If other people don't want to have anything to do with a certain software then this software has to be forced onto them because the maintainer is a fanboy of this software and can't respect other people's opinions due to his rose-colored glasses. I don't force anyone to do anything. If you see flaws in anything I do, then provide review, patches or bug reports. If you don't like the direction I'm taking initscripts in, then fork it and provide your competing version. You do force every Arch Linux user to install that systemd stuff. Why else do I have systemd-tools installed on my harddisk? Why else do I have all this systemd stuff in /usr/lib/systemd/system? Why else do I have even this directory /usr/lib/systemd on my harddisk? I tell you, because you force it on me. I never have installed this on my own. To be clear: it has always been my plan to make initscripts and systemd as close to each other as possible and share as much code as possible. I strongly believe this is the right thing to do. If you disagree, then I think your time is better spent at coding a replacement rather than at whining. I don't know what you didn't get. I have already coded the cryptsetup part of initscripts which still works, which works better than this systemd-cryptsetup thing, and which you want to replace by some untrustworthy, and at least incomplete systemd stuff. And, yes, I totally disagree that your plan to make initscripts and systemd as close to each other as possible are good. And I'm not the only one as you should know meanwhile. This, too, is forcing systemd on everbody. Initscripts worked before and would still do this. If you are a systemd fanboy then provide and support systemd optional, but leave initscripts alone and revert it to what it was, before you made all those systemd changes. But, yes, I forgot again, other people's opinions and wishes are dull and all those people don't know anything and have no clue what they are talking about. All those people on the whole wide web. And you are the wisdom in person. Are you really sure that you know what you are talking about? Are you really sure that you know what you are doing with initscripts? And, btw., I would also be interested in some opinions of the other devs and TUs about your activities in forcing this systemd stuff on everybody. You are the only dev who is permanently talking about this and hyping systemd, and meanwhile I know that you are a systemd fanboy. What about the other devs? Have your plans with all their pros and cons and the users' opinions and wishes been discussed before with the other devs? Or are you doing this all on your own? Meanwhile I have the opinion that it's the latter one. And still no word about the other tools which work on top of sysvinit which have recently be mentioned by someone else here on this mailing list. Only this systemd fanboy jabbering. Heiko
Re: [arch-general] OT: [arch-dev-public] polkit package upgrade patch
Am Sat, 11 Aug 2012 09:56:49 +0200 schrieb Jelle van der Waa je...@vdwaa.nl: Sure soon RHEL will switch to systemd with RHEL 7, so the systemd market share will probably continue to grow. Also SUSE seems to switch to systemd. With these major distro's taking up systemd, it's almost impossible that it's not implemented good enough. Then, why are there regularly so many, so long discussions on the web? And most of them are not started by me, and I don't even participate in a lot of them. And why are all those critical comments about PA, systemd, and Lennart Poettering marked green by so many people? Why is Lennart Poettering's software the only software about which there are so many discussions? Really because it's so damn good? I don't know what's going on behind the scenes of all those major distros. So I don't know how big Lennart's or someone else's influence is. But I think it's a mistake to switch to systemd. Well, offering it optionally, would be no problem. Speaking of which, I doubt that the RHEL and SUSE users care this much about the init system and the system internals as Arch Linux users do. p.s. it's a bit lame to just blame Poettering since for everything he just iirc the maintainer of systemd. Since there are much more people behind systemd ( Kay sievers, etc. ) I know that Poettering is not the only one behind systemd and PA, but it was his idea and he still is the maintainer. So it's still his software. Heiko
Re: [arch-general] systemd fsck
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 8:57 AM, David Benfell benf...@parts-unknown.orgwrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi all, I just moved my desktop to systemd, and saw a couple things as I booted it for the first time: 1) It is *fast*. Let me say that again. It is *fast*. I have never seen a system come up this fast. Critics of systemd might want to consider that. 2) But I did notice an error that worried me--just because it looks worrying--as it came up: Aug 09 13:34:36 graton systemd-fsck[270]: /dev/sda3 is mounted. Aug 09 13:34:36 graton systemd-fsck[270]: e2fsck: Cannot continue, aborting. Aug 09 13:34:36 graton systemd-fsck[270]: fsck failed with error code 8. Aug 09 13:34:36 graton systemd-fsck[270]: Ignoring error. Aug 09 13:34:36 graton systemd-fsck[289]: /dev/sdb1: clean, 398077/33554432 files, 27916145/134217728 blocks Aug 09 13:34:36 graton systemd-fsck[287]: /dev/sdb3: clean, 647214/21102592 files, 26531961/84405504 blocks Aug 09 13:34:36 graton systemd-fsck[348]: /dev/sda4: clean, 1650719/59490304 files, 57620902/237931957 blocks Aug 09 13:34:37 graton systemd-fsck[320]: /dev/sda1: clean, 33/10040 files, 22152/40160 blocks Aug 09 13:34:37 graton systemd-fsck[293]: /dev/sdb2: clean, 4926903/67125248 files, 195736925/268500992 blocks /dev/sda3 is the root partition. - -- David Benfell benf...@parts-unknown.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJQJdEsAAoJELT202JKF+xpR8EP/RAqqrPz2pumaHET2XLI97UC zd52iPPuc8nh75Xh8Jd5x0dPkd4xuGtRCiu8pRSLgX63o3iAOQtMcwFsBaOk0mN6 gjwJLbi0DM2VIYrlGS9VpG86w30uVhQLuuFwT4WasLJ5pKLfbKSw5lEXp56WQ597 qZmZ+L04MzkKKLAk4UENywF0hWy4fsDGgOPVg1nfhHJyFAd6aRtqxNSE4waoWAdI HjdAx5SYIDnu69O/UhqJ1GJOEiJxZaQYslQjmGYhHFDJfE1NJuDcY6XM+LeDGeyc ibKaDD96hTpL5meJAV+ZtglMJH9cRtNX69jqT5wnX141lOSXf19ybD7TRfXyMilV rBZfxfu1crDp4osbBYrMeRxYoK/Wr0HBWoknS6+RhpOheLUCMvV+xwcb4HMvrnKk 7i+LVCdNgb2Ul/vsG/MDZURgfKAgaYLtGMca2k8Ms1Q1paIkieD9fJg6sC8cbPNo yO9KfXsq8K4DnPwEJu0pJoOFr0lxPDqk2FFgBJnEjcpHVJqV4aqSTwgDcA0EzKw0 7wgAmczBbgUKxCoQehavsRRTm8QqjbM6yjCrwp44Ek4auL5taog32LnEw/GVreTh vOHNtMyOC6GzZfOJixEc5QmZx2J6iI9L9/MX0oEJiZcDh3gGRgfYUwFEdF+R+CfC h1s40baqzeVk/l/INX+V =ijAC -END PGP SIGNATURE- An error code of 8 for fsck means an operational error/general failure. Do you get this error every time you boot or is it a one off thing? Have you tried running it manually? FWIW, I don't think mounting root without the ro option should be causing this problem, then again it is better to check and see if it works. -- Aurko Roy GPG key: 0x20C5BC31 Fingerprint:76B4 9677 15BE 731D 1949 85BA 2A31 B442 20C5 BC31
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 01:35:10PM +0200, Heiko Baums wrote: How many times does it have to be said, that there are bug reports filed to upstream which have been ignored by upstream resp. which have been closed as fixed by first blaming ALSA for the PA problems, even if ALSA supports those cards perfectly out-of-the-box since years, then writing an obscure ALSA configuration which cripples those cards to simple stereo cards and now, after many discussions like this one, they suddenly say that PA is only meant for desktop purposes and not for professional purposes? All correct, and we'd better be happy about that. The problem is *not* that PA doesn't support multichannel cards - it would still be completely useless for any serious audio work and we would still have to disable/bypass/remove it even if it would support PRO hardware. The problem is that it becomes more and more difficult to install a system without all sorts of (for me and others) useless components such as PA. The reason is lots of hard dependencies that should be optional extensions instead. When L.P. claims e.g. that Gnome wants 'usability' and 'accessibility', therefore it needs and audio stack and since the best one for desktop use is PA (no discussion) it pulls in PA, that does make sense. But when it becomes impossible (using binary packages) to install Gnome without PA (while accepting the consequences) that just amounts to *very bad design*. Because technically there is *no reason* why things should be that way. If Gnome doesn't find the PA components it needs for certain non-essential funcions, it should just go on without them. The same goes for consolekit, polkit and whatever other kids the family has grown meanwhile. They do not provide essential functionality, rather they interfere with the normal way to contoll access etc., so they must remain optional. Now udev has been merged with systemd, and one can wonder why. According to the authors, it is 'because they share some common code'. A rather weak argument, that would be true for almost any two subsystems you can imagine. Udev is perfectly usable and useful on its own, it should never be merged with something else that should remain optional. But maybe that's what behind it - in the long term systemd is supposed not be optional. So what will be merged in next ? The kits ? Dbus ? Filesystems ? Networking ? It will end up to be one giant 'system' blob, take it or leave it, as we know from other platforms, with no choice at all for the user. L.P.'s reply to concerns like this (if systematically interrupting a speaker during his presentation can be called 'replying') is 'what are you whining about, it's all free, it's all open, submit a patch'. As if something like systematic bad design and creation of dependencies could be mended with a patch. Ciao, -- FA A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia. It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
Re: [arch-general] When will LibreOffice 3.6 proposed ?
2012/8/11 Andreas Radke andy...@archlinux.org: I've updated the PKGBUILD.36 files for libreoffice and libreoffice-i18n in svn trunk. Every user should now be able to build the new version. -Andy Thanks. I've tweaked them yesterday, and so far so good. It seems LibO 3.6 is faster on start than 3.5.x. -- Frederic Bezies fredbez...@gmail.com
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 2:48 PM, Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: The problem is that it becomes more and more difficult to install a system without all sorts of (for me and others) useless components such as PA. The reason is lots of hard dependencies that should be optional extensions instead. When L.P. claims e.g. that Gnome wants 'usability' and 'accessibility', therefore it needs and audio stack and since the best one for desktop use is PA (no discussion) it pulls in PA, that does make sense. But when it becomes impossible (using binary packages) to install Gnome without PA (while accepting the consequences) that just amounts to *very bad design*. Because technically there is *no reason* why things should be that way. If Gnome doesn't find the PA components it needs for certain non-essential funcions, it should just go on without them. The same goes for consolekit, polkit and whatever other kids the family has grown meanwhile. They do not provide essential functionality, rather they interfere with the normal way to contoll access etc., so they must remain optional. For better or worse, the reality is that there are hard dependencies on things you don't like. It seems that upstream is unwilling to change that. Rather than just complain about it (which will not change anything), why don't you try to find out what upstream would be willing to do to serve your usecase? I know for instance that pulseaudio should be able to disable itself if it finds jackd running (as PA acknowledges that it does not serve the same usecases as jack). Maybe that is not exactly what you need, but perhaps you could request some similar functionality. If you do it in a nice and constructive way based on technical arguments, I'm sure it would be merged. Now udev has been merged with systemd, and one can wonder why. According to the authors, it is 'because they share some common code'. A rather weak argument, that would be true for almost any two subsystems you can imagine. This is a misrepresentation. Udev and systemd were merged I think mainly because they belong together, but also because they had cyclic build dependencies as they are very tightly integrated. It is not the case that systemd swallows anything it shares code with, in fact some stuff is being pushed into util-linux away from systemd. Udev is perfectly usable and useful on its own, it should never be merged with something else that should remain optional. But maybe that's what behind it - in the long term systemd is supposed not be optional. So what will be merged in next ? The kits ? Dbus ? Filesystems ? Networking ? It will end up to be one giant 'system' blob, take it or leave it, as we know from other platforms, with no choice at all for the user. I think there is no interest (upstream) in trying to make systemd optional forever, so this is a concern you are probably right about. However, the suggestions of what might be merged show that you are either joking or don't know these projects well. At some point parts of dbus will move into the kernel (so that is something to troll about I guess). -t
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, 2012-08-11 at 15:30 +0200, Tom Gundersen wrote: I know for instance that pulseaudio should be able to disable itself if it finds jackd running No sarcasm, I seriously want to know about this. I only know that this is possible with jackdbus. Can you provide a link or do you mean jackdbus too? Regards, Ralf
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On 08/11/2012 09:30 AM, Tom Gundersen wrote: [putolin] I think there is no interest (upstream) in trying to make systemd optional forever, so this is a concern you are probably right about. However, the suggestions of what might be merged show that you are either joking or don't know these projects well. At some point parts of dbus will move into the kernel (so that is something to troll about I guess). -t One thing that the folks/upstream that are merging all these things together is missing is that the future of user computer is moving to phones and ipad type devices. PC will still be around but the consumer has spoken and it looks like he/she is moving to these devices. I don't condemn them for doing so as they want something that works. Turn it on and get what they want done, PCs don't do this. How are/would these giant concoctions going to play here as they don't have the storage, memory, or cpu to handle this. The direction should be going in the tool kit style as in here's the kernel and you can bolt on all of these independent things. Something like android?
[arch-general] KDE and plasma-desktop CPU usage
Hello, I recently formatted an acer netbook with intel atom processor, 32 bit, 1.66GHz/1GB RAM, with arch. I installed kde on it, everything went as expected. However when I log in with a normal user, the KDE start-up completes but the splash screen is stuck. plasma-desktop process is eating 100% CPU. Killing and restarting the process does not help. I think the machine is dual core, /proc/cpuinfo shows two cores but might be hyper-threaded, am not sure. I can hit Alt-F2, get a krunner prompt and run applications like konsole but the desktop remain unavailable. I had just started dbus from rc.conf and created a user as follows # useradd -m -g users -G audio,video shridhar And log-in from kdm. Google is not much of help. Any suggestions before I report the bug upstream? -- Regards Shridhar
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 15:30:09 +0200 Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no wrote: This is a misrepresentation. Udev and systemd were merged I think mainly because they belong together, but also because they had cyclic build dependencies as they are very tightly integrated. It is not the case that systemd swallows anything it shares code with, in fact some stuff is being pushed into util-linux away from systemd. I keep seeing this quote on the net, is it not accurate? Sievers explained that it will still be possible to install udev independently of systemd. He added that this option will be supported in the long term because separate builds are required to ensure that initrds (initial ramdisks), which don't include systemd, work correctly. Distributions that don't use systemd can continue to build udev as before, but will have to use the systemd sources. --- Joakim
Re: [arch-general] KDE and plasma-desktop CPU usage
On Sat, 2012-08-11 at 19:40 +0530, Shridhar Daithankar wrote: Hello, I recently formatted an acer netbook with intel atom processor, 32 bit, 1.66GHz/1GB RAM, with arch. I installed kde on it, everything went as expected. However when I log in with a normal user, the KDE start-up completes but the splash screen is stuck. plasma-desktop process is eating 100% CPU. Killing and restarting the process does not help. I think the machine is dual core, /proc/cpuinfo shows two cores but might be hyper-threaded, am not sure. I can hit Alt-F2, get a krunner prompt and run applications like konsole but the desktop remain unavailable. I had just started dbus from rc.conf and created a user as follows # useradd -m -g users -G audio,video shridhar And log-in from kdm. Google is not much of help. Any suggestions before I report the bug upstream? pacman -Rdd phonon-gstreamer pacman -S phonon-vlc - https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=133359 https://www.google.de/search?q=plasma%20desktop%20100%25% 20cpuie=utf-8oe=utf-8aq=trls=org.mozilla:en-US:officialclient=firefox-asource=hpchannel=np
Re: [arch-general] KDE and plasma-desktop CPU usage
try google : kde 4 eat cpu it's really helpful ——— Ashkan R On Aug 11, 2012 6:36 PM, Shridhar Daithankar ghodech...@ghodechhap.net wrote: Hello, I recently formatted an acer netbook with intel atom processor, 32 bit, 1.66GHz/1GB RAM, with arch. I installed kde on it, everything went as expected. However when I log in with a normal user, the KDE start-up completes but the splash screen is stuck. plasma-desktop process is eating 100% CPU. Killing and restarting the process does not help. I think the machine is dual core, /proc/cpuinfo shows two cores but might be hyper-threaded, am not sure. I can hit Alt-F2, get a krunner prompt and run applications like konsole but the desktop remain unavailable. I had just started dbus from rc.conf and created a user as follows # useradd -m -g users -G audio,video shridhar And log-in from kdm. Google is not much of help. Any suggestions before I report the bug upstream? -- Regards Shridhar
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 09:59:54 -0400 Baho Utot baho-u...@columbus.rr.com wrote: On 08/11/2012 09:30 AM, Tom Gundersen wrote: [putolin] I think there is no interest (upstream) in trying to make systemd optional forever, so this is a concern you are probably right about. However, the suggestions of what might be merged show that you are either joking or don't know these projects well. At some point parts of dbus will move into the kernel (so that is something to troll about I guess). -t One thing that the folks/upstream that are merging all these things together is missing is that the future of user computer is moving to phones and ipad type devices. PC will still be around but the consumer has spoken and it looks like he/she is moving to these devices. I don't condemn them for doing so as they want something that works. Turn it on and get what they want done, PCs don't do this. Smartphones, tablets and i* devices are toys. Have you ever tried to compile Android/openWebOS? Or openwrt for a router? Or even ArchlinuxARM? They is not nearly as flexible as PCs. Sure, if all you need from a computer is a means for posting crap on facebook, then consumers are right. Just because these mobile/embedded devices are hyped doesn't mean they own the future. Besides, systemd, PA, dbus are quite natural for embedded devices. For instance, Palm has been using PA in their devices since first versions, and quite successfully. How are/would these giant concoctions going to play here as they don't have the storage, memory, or cpu to handle this. The direction should be going in the tool kit style as in here's the kernel and you can bolt on all of these independent things. Something like android? Mobile phones like samsung galaxies have dual core Cortex A10 (?) and LG Tmobile GX (at least in the US) runs on quadcore Nvidia tegra. That's more processing power than my previous laptop. -- Leonid Isaev GnuPG key: 0x164B5A6D Fingerprint: C0DF 20D0 C075 C3F1 E1BE 775A A7AE F6CB 164B 5A6D signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 3:59 PM, Baho Utot baho-u...@columbus.rr.com wrote: One thing that the folks/upstream that are merging all these things together is missing is that the future of user computer is moving to phones and ipad type devices. PC will still be around but the consumer has spoken and it looks like he/she is moving to these devices. I don't condemn them for doing so as they want something that works. Turn it on and get what they want done, PCs don't do this. How are/would these giant concoctions going to play here as they don't have the storage, memory, or cpu to handle this. The direction should be going in the tool kit style as in here's the kernel and you can bolt on all of these independent things. Something like android? I would be surprised if a systemd-based system requires more resources than a sysvinit-based one, but that is of course something one would have to measure for each particular use-case. There are lots of systemd-based embedded systems cropping up (the embedded world seems more excited about sysntemd than the desktop world). The aim of systemd is to work on anything from embedded, via desktop to servers. -t
Re: [arch-general] OT: [arch-dev-public] polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 14:16:46 +0200 Heiko Baums li...@baums-on-web.de wrote: Am Sat, 11 Aug 2012 09:56:49 +0200 schrieb Jelle van der Waa je...@vdwaa.nl: Sure soon RHEL will switch to systemd with RHEL 7, so the systemd market share will probably continue to grow. Also SUSE seems to switch to systemd. With these major distro's taking up systemd, it's almost impossible that it's not implemented good enough. Then, why are there regularly so many, so long discussions on the web? And most of them are not started by me, and I don't even participate in a lot of them. And why are all those critical comments about PA, systemd, and Lennart Poettering marked green by so many people? Why is Lennart Poettering's software the only software about which there are so many discussions? Really because it's so damn good? I think you are forgetting that linux-based OS market usage is 1.0%. So by the same logic, why do so many people prefer NOT to use these OSs, because they are so good? Are those people all idiots? Sometimes numbers don't mean much... I don't know what's going on behind the scenes of all those major distros. So I don't know how big Lennart's or someone else's influence is. But I think it's a mistake to switch to systemd. Well, offering it optionally, would be no problem. Right, all evil in this world comes from Glass, Apples and... LP. BTW, last time I checked, opensuse had pretty vast public dev ML. Speaking of which, I doubt that the RHEL and SUSE users care this much about the init system and the system internals as Arch Linux users do. p.s. it's a bit lame to just blame Poettering since for everything he just iirc the maintainer of systemd. Since there are much more people behind systemd ( Kay sievers, etc. ) I know that Poettering is not the only one behind systemd and PA, but it was his idea and he still is the maintainer. So it's still his software. Heiko -- Leonid Isaev GnuPG key: 0x164B5A6D Fingerprint: C0DF 20D0 C075 C3F1 E1BE 775A A7AE F6CB 164B 5A6D signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [arch-general] OT: [arch-dev-public] polkit package upgrade patch
2012/8/11 Heiko Baums li...@baums-on-web.de: Am Sat, 11 Aug 2012 03:02:03 +0200 schrieb Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no: Issues, serious or otherwise, belong in the bug-tracker. We have surprisingly few systemd/pulseaudio bugs open, considering all the noise they create on the ML. Also surprising: a few people mentioned alternatives to systemd / sysvinit. AFAIK none of them started a project to implement their idea in Arch... ;) Is it really that hard to respect other people's opinions and wishes? Is it really that hard? Sorry, I didn't realise you were being serious. Of course you shouldn't delete them. If you don't use systemd they have no effect, and take hardly no space. But they take space on my harddisk. And even TB harddisks can get full some day. And not everybody is able to afford a new one at once. And I just don't want this systemd stuff on my harddisk. Well, it should be possible to create a system (even Arch!) completely free of systemd tools. You'd have to rebuild some of the initscripts and, oh yeah, fire up mknod to create all necessary devices. As i'm sure you know, Udev is now a part of systemd. Just my two cents. mvg, Guus
[arch-general] Using ATTR{flags} in udev rules
Hi,
While building an Arch-based wireless router I ran into a problem of
persistent NIC naming. To differentiate which interfaces go to WAN and LAN,
I have created a simple udev rule like this
/etc/udev/rules.d/10-network.rules
# On-board NIC (Realtek, r8169)
SUBSYSTEM==net, ATTR{address}==mac, NAME=wan
# USB ethernet adapter (Asix)
SUBSYSTEM==net, ATTR{address}==mac, NAME=elan0
# PCI card (dlink dwa-552, ath9k)
SUBSYSTEM==net, ATTR{address}==mac, NAME=wap
These work OK until hostapd starts. It creates a bridge br0=(wap) and also a
mon.wap interface. Both new interfaces share the same mac address as wap
which confuses udev, as it tries to rename them as well and fails.
Matching parent devices is not enough because wap and mon.wap have
the same parent. However, ATTR{flags} is different for the two (at the device
level). What does this attribute mean and is it a good idea to use it in a
ruleset?
Thanks.
--
Leonid Isaev
GnuPG key: 0x164B5A6D
Fingerprint: C0DF 20D0 C075 C3F1 E1BE 775A A7AE F6CB 164B 5A6D
signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
Re: [arch-general] OT: [arch-dev-public] polkit package upgrade patch
2012/8/11 Guus Snijders gsnijd...@gmail.com: 2012/8/11 Heiko Baums li...@baums-on-web.de: [...] And I just don't want this systemd stuff on my harddisk. Well, it should be possible to create a system (even Arch!) completely free of systemd tools. You'd have to rebuild some of the initscripts and, oh yeah, fire up mknod to create all necessary devices. As i'm sure you know, Udev is now a part of systemd. Ok, a quick reply on myself. I just read in an other thread that this last statement isn't entirely true. It seems like it's still possible to use udev stand-alone. Apologies for my ignorance. mvg, Guus
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On 08/11/2012 11:51 AM, Joakim Hernberg wrote: On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 15:30:09 +0200 Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no wrote: This is a misrepresentation. Udev and systemd were merged I think mainly because they belong together, but also because they had cyclic build dependencies as they are very tightly integrated. It is not the case that systemd swallows anything it shares code with, in fact some stuff is being pushed into util-linux away from systemd. I keep seeing this quote on the net, is it not accurate? Sievers explained that it will still be possible to install udev independently of systemd. He added that this option will be supported in the long term because separate builds are required to ensure that initrds (initial ramdisks), which don't include systemd, work correctly. Distributions that don't use systemd can continue to build udev as before, but will have to use the systemd sources. --- Joakim That is not entirely true. Have a look at LFS. Bruce Dubbs has broken udev out of the systemd-187. Which you can see from here: http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/development/chapter06/udev.html systemd-188 has been somewhat ugly.
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On 08/11/2012 12:22 PM, Tom Gundersen wrote: On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 3:59 PM, Baho Utot baho-u...@columbus.rr.com wrote: One thing that the folks/upstream that are merging all these things together is missing is that the future of user computer is moving to phones and ipad type devices. PC will still be around but the consumer has spoken and it looks like he/she is moving to these devices. I don't condemn them for doing so as they want something that works. Turn it on and get what they want done, PCs don't do this. How are/would these giant concoctions going to play here as they don't have the storage, memory, or cpu to handle this. The direction should be going in the tool kit style as in here's the kernel and you can bolt on all of these independent things. Something like android? I would be surprised if a systemd-based system requires more resources than a sysvinit-based one, but that is of course something one would have to measure for each particular use-case. There are lots of systemd-based embedded systems cropping up (the embedded world seems more excited about sysntemd than the desktop world). The aim of systemd is to work on anything from embedded, via desktop to servers. -t I am not looking at this from an systemd point of view. My point is the constant bloat with software today. Theses bloated packages will not fit/function on hand held devices. Is it not more sensible to build small apps that do one or two things well then bloated apps that try to do 25 things unwell?
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, 2012-08-11 at 11:17 -0500, Leonid Isaev wrote: tablets and i* devices are toys The hardware capabilities aren't used very good, but they anyway aren't toys. For professional audio usage there at least are amazing remote controls available. Until now I didn't find the kind of graphic app I need, but it's already nice to be able to make computer graphics, while having the freedom not to sit in front of a computer. For artist they are very useful. Until now I won't recommend to buy a tablet PC, regarding to the policy of Apple and because common Android tablets, old hardware and old versions of Android, don't have the needed capabilities. Most (really most) users just follow the hype, everybody wants a modern mobile and/or tablet PC and they like to use social networks, but there's also the possibility to use tablet PCs for serious work, at least for arts. You limit your way of seeing by yourself, that also explains your lack of insight, when other people try to explain the reason why forced dependencies are that bad. For some people computers are tools. Don't call tablet PCs tools, just because you limit your imagination and because you are not willing to listen to others. You might search the LAD and LAU archives for amazing examples about what already is possible with Android and iOS tablet PCs. There's much more possible, but we still tilt a little bit at windmills at the moment. Regards, Ralf
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Saturday 11 Aug 2012 17:51:44 Joakim Hernberg wrote: Sievers explained that it will still be possible to install udev independently of systemd. He added that this option will be supported in the long term because separate builds are required to ensure that initrds (initial ramdisks), which don't include systemd, work correctly. Distributions that don't use systemd can continue to build udev as before, but will have to use the systemd sources. Exact quote from http://lwn.net/Articles/490413/ In fact, we will be supporting this for a long time since it is a necessity to make initrds (which lack systemd) work properly. See the word lack and necessity. They do not talk about it as design features as so many people want. For them, this lack of systemd is a bug not a feature. So according to their design patterns, they would have liked systemd in initrd. -- Cheers and Regards Jayesh Badwaik stop html mail | always bottom-post www.asciiribbon.org | www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, 2012-08-11 at 19:14 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Sat, 2012-08-11 at 11:17 -0500, Leonid Isaev wrote: tablets and i* devices are toys The hardware capabilities aren't used very good, but they anyway aren't toys. For professional audio usage there at least are amazing remote controls available. Until now I didn't find the kind of graphic app I need, but it's already nice to be able to make computer graphics, while having the freedom not to sit in front of a computer. For artist they are very useful. Until now I won't recommend to buy a tablet PC, regarding to the policy of Apple and because common Android tablets, old hardware and old versions of Android, don't have the needed capabilities. Most (really most) users just follow the hype, everybody wants a modern mobile and/or tablet PC and they like to use social networks, but there's also the possibility to use tablet PCs for serious work, at least for arts. You limit your way of seeing by yourself, that also explains your lack of insight, when other people try to explain the reason why forced dependencies are that bad. For some people computers are tools. Don't call tablet PCs tools, just toys, greetz from Freud :D First I thought myself they are toys only, but they aren't. because you limit your imagination and because you are not willing to listen to others. You might search the LAD and LAU archives for amazing examples about what already is possible with Android and iOS tablet PCs. There's much more possible, but we still tilt a little bit at windmills at the moment. Regards, Ralf
Re: [arch-general] When will LibreOffice 3.6 proposed ?
I'm afraid its going to happen unless you know of a way to make gmail stop top-posting :p On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 5:00 AM, Karol Blazewicz karol.blazew...@gmail.comwrote: On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 5:44 AM, Brandon Watkins bwa...@gmail.com wrote: Yeah, it does work. I had a read a few posts earlier saying that spellcheck was broken in libreoffice 3.6, but it turns out it was all hyperbole, they were just referring to this bug which is certainly not totally broken spellcheck: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53006 On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 8:29 PM, fredbezies fredbez...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/8/10 fredbezies fredbez...@gmail.com: 2012/8/10 Brandon Watkins bwa...@gmail.com: Spellcheck is currently broken in 3.6.0 afiak, so probably best to wait until the point release. Well, if you don't wipe previous configuration, it could be broken. And as there is PKGBUILD.36 files, will try by myself. Good to learn some more things on build process :D Get it build, wiped my previous profile, and spellcheck seems to work. Now waiting for 3.6.1 :) Until then, I will play with my homemade version :D -- Frederic Bezies fredbez...@gmail.com Please don't top-post.
Re: [arch-general] When will LibreOffice 3.6 proposed ?
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 7:20 PM, Brandon Watkins bwa...@gmail.com wrote: I'm afraid its going to happen unless you know of a way to make gmail stop top-posting :p You can e.g. scroll down to the end of the message you're replying to ...
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
I think people are really exaggerating how bloated systemd is. I fail to see how systemd would have issues running on mobile devices, if anything its more optimized for embedded devices.
Re: [arch-general] When will LibreOffice 3.6 proposed ?
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 9:24 AM, fredbezies fredbez...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/8/11 Andreas Radke andy...@archlinux.org: I've updated the PKGBUILD.36 files for libreoffice and libreoffice-i18n in svn trunk. Every user should now be able to build the new version. -Andy Thanks. I've tweaked them yesterday, and so far so good. It seems LibO 3.6 is faster on start than 3.5.x. -- Frederic Bezies fredbez...@gmail.com Excellent, I always like to see speed improvements in LO :)
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On 08/11/2012 01:41 PM, Brandon Watkins wrote: I think people are really exaggerating how bloated systemd is. I fail to see how systemd would have issues running on mobile devices, if anything its more optimized for embedded devices. You didn't understand my point
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Baho Utot baho-u...@columbus.rr.comwrote: My point is the constant bloat with software today. Theses bloated packages will not fit/function on hand held devices. You were quite specific with your point here, and I disagree.
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, 2012-08-11 at 13:59 -0400, Brandon Watkins wrote: On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Baho Utot baho-u...@columbus.rr.comwrote: My point is the constant bloat with software today. Theses bloated packages will not fit/function on hand held devices. You were quite specific with your point here, and I disagree. We can ignore every context, but the context is On Sat, 2012-08-11 at 13:14 -0400, Baho Utot wrote: Is it not more sensible to build small apps that do one or two things well then bloated apps that try to do 25 things unwell? +1 And I again will add, why is there the need for unneeded dependencies? Regards, Ralf
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On 11 August 2012 19:14, Baho Utot baho-u...@columbus.rr.com wrote: On 08/11/2012 12:22 PM, Tom Gundersen wrote: I would be surprised if a systemd-based system requires more resources than a sysvinit-based one, but that is of course something one would have to measure for each particular use-case. There are lots of systemd-based embedded systems cropping up (the embedded world seems more excited about sysntemd than the desktop world). The aim of systemd is to work on anything from embedded, via desktop to servers. -t I am not looking at this from an systemd point of view. My point is the constant bloat with software today. Theses bloated packages will not fit/function on hand held devices. Is it not more sensible to build small apps that do one or two things well then bloated apps that try to do 25 things unwell? Systemd is broken into multiple small utilities (see eg. systemd-tools that are used by initscripts already) that does one thing, so it's not one big scary binary that does everything. In fact I believe* systemd is more suited for embedded devices than the current initscripts. Systemd is a bunch of small binaries that should be fast to execute in contrary to interpreting piles of bash scripts. Lukas * note that I'm saying this even though I don't like systemd very much (it's just my personal opinion, so don't try to argue with that) and I don't use it on any of my systems (nor I'm planning to in the near future).
Re: [arch-general] When will LibreOffice 3.6 proposed ?
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 6:43 PM, Brandon Watkins bwa...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 9:24 AM, fredbezies fredbez...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/8/11 Andreas Radke andy...@archlinux.org: I've updated the PKGBUILD.36 files for libreoffice and libreoffice-i18n in svn trunk. Every user should now be able to build the new version. -Andy Thanks. I've tweaked them yesterday, and so far so good. It seems LibO 3.6 is faster on start than 3.5.x. -- Frederic Bezies fredbez...@gmail.com Excellent, I always like to see speed improvements in LO :) Ctrl-End? :p
Re: [arch-general] OT: [arch-dev-public] polkit package upgrade patch
*grabs popcorn* On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 2:03 PM, Heiko Baums li...@baums-on-web.de wrote: But they take space on my harddisk. And even TB harddisks can get full some day. And not everybody is able to afford a new one at once. [kwpolska@kwpolska-lin ~]% du -sh /usr/lib/systemd 3.6M/usr/lib/systemd Seriously? Are 3.6M so much? So you don’t have any packages for shells other than the one you’re using? So you don’t have more than one terminal emulator? Of course you do! Then why do you care about systemd files? You can always run a rm -rf /usr/lib/systemd, you know. And I just don't want this systemd stuff on my harddisk. And I just don’t want this GNOME 3 stuff on my harddisk. But I don’t go whining on the MLs, I rather go pacman -R gnome. Or whatever you have. (although GNOME 3 sucks and EVERYONE will agree with that.) But, hey, it's really hard to respect other people's opinions and wishes. I understand. If other people don't want to have anything to do with a certain software then this software has to be forced onto them because the maintainer is a fanboy of this software and can't respect other people's opinions due to his rose-colored glasses. Told ya: pacman -R systemd; rm -rf /usr/lib/systemd. Your wishes are granted. You do force every Arch Linux user to install that systemd stuff. Why else do I have systemd-tools installed on my harddisk? Why else do I have all this systemd stuff in /usr/lib/systemd/system? Why else do I have even this directory /usr/lib/systemd on my harddisk? I tell you, because you force it on me. I never have installed this on my own. rm -rf /usr/lib/systemd Also, believe it or not, systemd-tools was not forced on you. systemd-tools = udev + some fancy systemd manpages and files. THAT’S IT! It could be also named udev-plus-fancy-stuff. Or i-like-turtles. Or rainbow-dash-is-best-pony. Although the last one could spawn such OT as this thread by people who aren’t (or even hate) bronies. Initscripts worked before and would still do this. If you are a systemd fanboy then provide and support systemd optional, but leave initscripts alone and revert it to what it was, before you made all those systemd changes. …and initscripts still work and will work for a while… But, yes, I forgot again, other people's opinions and wishes are dull and all those people don't know anything and have no clue what they are talking about. All those people on the whole wide web. And you are the wisdom in person. I told you how to grant your wish at least twice before, so I won’t repeat that. Your opinion? NOBODY CARES! You can still use initscripts! Nobody cares that you don’t like systemd, pulseaudio or Poettering! And if we’re talking about pulseaudio: sure, pulseaudio is a bit more “forced” on you by certain packages. But you can still live without it, I think. If you are doing “pro audio work” and you can afford a $bazillion audio card, then why can’t you afford a $200* OS? Windows will be much better! And if you really want to work like a pro, get a Mac. And if you want to stay on this fancy Linux thing used by ~nobody, and exactly 0 (read: zero) people in the pro area, especially in the pro gamer area (there are -1000 pro gamers on Linux now), and there is no way to escape PulseAudio right now, PATCHES WELCOME! Remember: systemd and pulseaudio are open-source projects. If you want to see something improved, Obligatory disclaimer: I am using three Arch systems: physical/x86_64/systemd/pulse/KDE, VM/x86_64/systemd/pulse/Xfce and VM/i686/initscripts/no-audio-at-all/Xfce. The first VM is used mainly for development under Windows (I’ve yet to see people developing linux-specific tools or even AUR helpers [pkgbuilder] under Windows), while the second one is used for a blog post that was written but isn’t since over a week. Anyways, I was criticizing both pulseaudio and systemd in their earlier stages. But now, my system (mostly) works properly. The only problematic piece of software is VLC, which has some white noise when it starts playing audio. Everyone else is fine. * = €200 from Microsoft, although it should be around €160. I love this fucking currency, especially when it’s forced on me (Steam, anyone?). Please, oh, please, kill it already. It is bloody useless. -- Kwpolska http://kwpolska.tk stop html mail | always bottom-post www.asciiribbon.org | www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html GPG KEY: 5EAAEA16 | Arch Linux x86_64, zsh, mutt, vim. # vim:set textwidth=70:
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 03:30:09PM +0200, Tom Gundersen wrote: For better or worse, the reality is that there are hard dependencies on things you don't like. It seems that upstream is unwilling to change that. Then you should really ask yourself why they take that position. AFAICS, there is no solid technical argument for it. Now udev has been merged with systemd, and one can wonder why. According to the authors, it is 'because they share some common code'. A rather weak argument, that would be true for almost any two subsystems you can imagine. This is a misrepresentation. Udev and systemd were merged I think mainly because they belong together, but also because they had cyclic build dependencies as they are very tightly integrated. It's no misrepresantation, but an almost literal quote from one of the authors. Yes, systemd and udev are supposed to work closely together, that makes perfect sense. The solution preferred by grown-up programmers in such cases is to define stable interfaces on both sides allowing them to do that, not to merge them. Ciao, -- FA A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia. It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
Re: [arch-general] OT: [arch-dev-public] polkit package upgrade patch
And I hadn't had time to set up a VM. not to worry, the whole world of free software developers (including Arch) are here and have all the time to serve your wishes. -- дамјан
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On 08/11/2012 02:11 PM, Lukas Jirkovsky wrote: On 11 August 2012 19:14, Baho Utot baho-u...@columbus.rr.com wrote: On 08/11/2012 12:22 PM, Tom Gundersen wrote: I would be surprised if a systemd-based system requires more resources than a sysvinit-based one, but that is of course something one would have to measure for each particular use-case. There are lots of systemd-based embedded systems cropping up (the embedded world seems more excited about sysntemd than the desktop world). The aim of systemd is to work on anything from embedded, via desktop to servers. -t I am not looking at this from an systemd point of view. My point is the constant bloat with software today. Theses bloated packages will not fit/function on hand held devices. Is it not more sensible to build small apps that do one or two things well then bloated apps that try to do 25 things unwell? Systemd is broken into multiple small utilities (see eg. systemd-tools that are used by initscripts already) that does one thing, so it's not one big scary binary that does everything. systemd is one source distributed package arch split the package into the multiples you see here. In fact I believe* systemd is more suited for embedded devices than the current initscripts. Systemd is a bunch of small binaries that should be fast to execute in contrary to interpreting piles of bash scripts. It doesn't run on my android device nor would it be needed or required.
Re: [arch-general] [arch-announce] netcfg-2.8.9 drops initscripts compatibility
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 1:01 PM, Arch Linux: Recent news updates: Florian Pritz annou...@archlinux.org wrote: Florian Pritz wrote: All interfaces should now be configured in `/etc/conf.d/netcfg` rather than `/etc/rc.conf`. URL: http://www.archlinux.org/news/netcfg-289-drops-initscripts-compatibility/ The title of this article seems like it's going to cause a lot of confusion and anger. It seems to imply that if you're using initscripts, then you cannot use netcfg at all. But of course, that's not the case. This is merely the removal of a deprecated feature that was warned about in a previous news post [1]. [1] http://www.archlinux.org/news/netcfg-282-release/
Re: [arch-general] OT: [arch-dev-public] polkit package upgrade patch
Am Sat, 11 Aug 2012 22:21:01 +0200 schrieb Damjan gdam...@gmail.com: not to worry, the whole world of free software developers (including Arch) are here and have all the time to serve your wishes. Have you thought about that comment before sending it? Heiko
Re: [arch-general] OT: [arch-dev-public] polkit package upgrade patch
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 12:02:50PM -0400, Baho Utot wrote: With pulse it just takes over the master volume when it try to adjust audio in an application cranking the master volume to full. Without pulse it just works the way I like it to be. So count me as one of the ones who doesn't like pulse audio. :-) Give anyone who's not an audio engineer two volume controls in series and the result will be either noise interference or distortion or both. So imagine the average desktop user who gets five or so of them: - one provided by the application (player or something) - one provided by PA or similar, - probably two by the soundcard mixer, - and finally one on his/her cheap 'multimedia speakers'. The first and second ones will be digital, unless one of them tries to control the soundcard mixer. The soundcard mixer controls could be digital or analog or an undocumented mix of both. The last one is probably analog. The probability of getting any decent sound out of such a mess is smallish. Ciao, -- FA A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia. It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
Re: [arch-general] OT: [arch-dev-public] polkit package upgrade patch
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:03 AM, Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: So imagine the average desktop user who gets five or so of them: - one provided by the application (player or something) - one provided by PA or similar, - probably two by the soundcard mixer, PA combines these three into one. So the non-audio-engineer user should have a lot bigger chance of not messing things up with PA compared to with pure ALSA (where you do have to fiddle with all the mixers and the application mixer on top). Sorry if this was what you were trying to point out. -t
Re: [arch-general] Why is scribus installing gimp-light-2.6.11?
On 08/10/2012 02:25 AM, Rashif Ray Rahman wrote: I can't believe this. You are an Arch user and it never occurred to you that you should go check with a pacman -Ss gimp-light, and then when there is no result, check the AUR? How about a pacman -Si scribus? Believe it. Here, the issue isn't can't you check, the issue is why did scribus attempt to satisfy a dependency with gimp-light? That is why I posted the question. I had never seen pacman attempt to satisfy and dependency with a non-existent or aur package before. But it did. The lack of a gimp-light caused pacman to fail to upgrade anything. Thus, the post. The questions wasn't why isn't gimp-light in the repos? or Is AUR the only place for gimp-light?, the question was why/how is scribus looking for it in the first place? -- David C. Rankin, J.D.,P.E.
Re: [arch-general] OT: [arch-dev-public] polkit package upgrade patch
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:15:14AM +0200, Tom Gundersen wrote: On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:03 AM, Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: So imagine the average desktop user who gets five or so of them: - one provided by the application (player or something) - one provided by PA or similar, - probably two by the soundcard mixer, PA combines these three into one. So the non-audio-engineer user should have a lot bigger chance of not messing things up with PA compared to with pure ALSA (where you do have to fiddle with all the mixers and the application mixer on top). Sorry if this was what you were trying to point out. Obviously you're not a sound engineer, or you would know that is pure nonsense. First, PA has no visibility on whatever internal volume control an app provides. It just doesn't know about it. All it gets is the output from the app. Second, PA has no way to know how to correctly use the soundcard controls, or even to know what exactly they control and how they do it. On some cards the 'master' is digital scaling before the D/A converter. On some others it controls an analog gain stage after the converter. The correct way to use those is completely different. Ciao, -- FA A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia. It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
Re: [arch-general] OT: [arch-dev-public] polkit package upgrade patch
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:31 AM, Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: First, PA has no visibility on whatever internal volume control an app provides. It just doesn't know about it. All it gets is the output from the app. This is not correct. If the app has proper PA support (such as all KDE apps, and probably all gnome apps), then PA does the app specific mixing, not the app itself. Moreover, if only one app is playing sound then PA does no mixing at all, but passes it all directly to ALSA (and sets ALSA's controls of course). Second, PA has no way to know how to correctly use the soundcard controls, or even to know what exactly they control and how they do it. On some cards the 'master' is digital scaling before the D/A converter. On some others it controls an analog gain stage after the converter. The correct way to use those is completely different. If I understand correctly ALSA provides lots of meta-information about the controllers to PA. Before PA this meta information was ignored, and it is due to bugs in that that PA had a bad reputation in the beginning. PA has heuristics to try to do the best it can with the information provided to it. Are you saying that an unqualified user is likely to get a better result than these heuristics? It seems that what you are saying should mean that ALAS is clearly not good enough, and that we need something more, such as PA to deal with getting the mixing right, as it is too hard for users. -t
Re: [arch-general] Why is scribus installing gimp-light-2.6.11?
On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 17:29:46 -0500 David C. Rankin drankina...@suddenlinkmail.com wrote: On 08/10/2012 02:25 AM, Rashif Ray Rahman wrote: I can't believe this. You are an Arch user and it never occurred to you that you should go check with a pacman -Ss gimp-light, and then when there is no result, check the AUR? How about a pacman -Si scribus? Believe it. Here, the issue isn't can't you check, the issue is why did scribus attempt to satisfy a dependency with gimp-light? That is why I posted the question. I had never seen pacman attempt to satisfy and dependency with a non-existent or aur package before. But it did. The lack of a gimp-light caused pacman to fail to upgrade anything. Thus, the post. The questions wasn't why isn't gimp-light in the repos? or Is AUR the only place for gimp-light?, the question was why/how is scribus looking for it in the first place? It doesn't. Either you have a broken system or a voodoo magician nearby (and we don't believe in magic). What was the exact error of pacman? -- Leonid Isaev GnuPG key: 0x164B5A6D Fingerprint: C0DF 20D0 C075 C3F1 E1BE 775A A7AE F6CB 164B 5A6D signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [arch-general] OT: [arch-dev-public] polkit package upgrade patch
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:41:24AM +0200, Tom Gundersen wrote: On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:31 AM, Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: First, PA has no visibility on whatever internal volume control an app provides. It just doesn't know about it. All it gets is the output from the app. This is not correct. If the app has proper PA support (such as all KDE apps, and probably all gnome apps), then PA does the app specific mixing, not the app itself. That doesn't stop the app from having its own internal volume control that PA doesn't know about. Moreover, if only one app is playing sound then PA does no mixing at all, but passes it all directly to ALSA (and sets ALSA's controls of course). If that is true it is completely wrong from the start. Because that setup can't be maintained when a second app starts playing which can happen at any time. Suppose that first (single) app has its volume set to some low value, and PA uses the soundcard PCM gain control to achieve that as you claim it does. Now suddenly there's a second app which wants a higher level. The only way to achieve that is to raise the hardware gain - you can't compensate for a low setting there by sending a louder signal, it would just clip. So PA now has to adjust the hardware gain and at the same time start scaling down the output from the first app. It's impossible to do that in any acceptable way. Simple fact is that most soundcards, even if they have a 'mixer', can't mix PCM signals (i.e. signals from the software) - they can mix in a CD player, or an external mic input etc.). So for anything coming from the system there is just one path, which has two controls, the 'PCM' and the 'master'. The only way to correctly use them if there if there is software mixing is to set them once to their correct values (which may depend on what is connected externally), and them leave them alone and do the rest in software. And then we haven't even touched the matter of different sample rates. Second, PA has no way to know how to correctly use the soundcard controls, or even to know what exactly they control and how they do it. On some cards the 'master' is digital scaling before the D/A converter. On some others it controls an analog gain stage after the converter. The correct way to use those is completely different. If I understand correctly ALSA provides lots of meta-information about the controllers to PA. Before PA this meta information was ignored, and it is due to bugs in that that PA had a bad reputation in the beginning. 'A lot of meta-information' LOL. It will provide some usually meaningless and inconsistent names of controls, their min and max values, and if you're extremely lucky maybe some indication mapping control values to dB, which may or may not be correct (and if it isn't that's not ALSA's fault, it just crappy and undocumented harware). All of that is visible in alsamixer. PA has heuristics to try to do the best it can with the information provided to it. Are you saying that an unqualified user is likely to get a better result than these heuristics? Yes, absolutely. It may take the user some time to understand the quirks of his soundcard (such as that it's not capable of outputting full digital level without distortion, no matter how the controls are set, or even crappier shortcomings). But he will usually find a way to get things working. Which is impossible without hearing the result. Maybe PA has some magic powers to do that. Ciao, -- FA A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia. It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/11/2012 05:48 AM, Fons Adriaensen wrote: The problem is that it becomes more and more difficult to install a system without all sorts of (for me and others) useless components such as PA. The reason is lots of hard dependencies that should be optional extensions instead. I'm asking this out of ignorance rather than rhetorically: How much of this is the distribution and how much of this is gnome? I know, for instance, if I install an Ubuntu or Mint system, they have these meta-packages that have all these dependencies to pull in, in this example, a complete gnome. Is that really the fault of upstream? - -- David Benfell benf...@parts-unknown.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJQJuyjAAoJELT202JKF+xpMNkP/jVkSUC66UpsAdxcNHBdDJex Wyhyjv2SAw46UMZovxLdPf64UTa2wEt9yZ0pw58PqZ3LLCfLy4b+gJ/Dr5+KPq6/ F2vsBrSBvi443DIWAockbXglfuJ6LCNxjFjgTSL+y5gsOR5OyoDaq1wLXFzRngN/ pkCRyur77A1QrEuo/vw7rZtxz4xuGIbtRMfnCupxUZpvWtK/Lss1jWSYZpQxHYQ/ 7Gtx0sHerZuv8uHkVybvd6/q7hKbBGFPBHG5KFvllXrhhzQ2LMrQFiErRDjYZhxz eVOeASpp+cB5ydVhU0RousFD6rkaaK6fCsEYoeT9biGPBTUUC+mLbSCf+3v7+Lil jE4+pQI3Eb7skLvrDZOGvOJQDzqftikku4POGYdZopkn1FnFRicEyHkzjgDT5O8D OOOc6hIBGbIHZ5iKf3ofxc/xgGabGFrWHpaH/4A9KFQh+DS6Y2yTQA2gtpfTGIlO 2InMymcmdyO9Y7FmTTW1u+gIL+wd3LbQtdKaHVApFBx+zT5oBfbip7Sv074ApH9D 35ij2KeBXKPToknI9qFtYVeQnunnvt+Lva/VzLZoivkwgTBABA3pbdR6CzTp3Xf0 2+Tc193QnW0ZUrZkQHVTW4PdqxXztEV66WhYnD0yPHlkzujPx2a4Pc3Sh7i6Qdhc Hl9rw1NHHyzOBGCF/lNV =2yEA -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [arch-general] OT: [arch-dev-public] polkit package upgrade patch
On 11-08-2012 23:33, Baho Utot wrote: On 08/11/2012 06:15 PM, Tom Gundersen wrote: On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:03 AM, Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: So imagine the average desktop user who gets five or so of them: - one provided by the application (player or something) - one provided by PA or similar, - probably two by the soundcard mixer, PA combines these three into one. So the non-audio-engineer user should have a lot bigger chance of not messing things up with PA compared to with pure ALSA (where you do have to fiddle with all the mixers and the application mixer on top). Sorry if this was what you were trying to point out. -t As a non-audio-engineer trying to adjust the sound level in vlc PA keep messing up my sound level (going to full 100%) any time I tried to adjust it. Just ask my wife for conformation as she didn't like the 100% volume every time I adjusted the sound level in vlc or xmms etc. So try to adjust the volume I did.but wait I'll get it right this timeTurn the damn thing down She screamed. Ok just let me. TURN THE DAMN THING OFF!!! Removed PA and only using ALSA equals working properly. As a bonus there is peace in the house ;) Did you try flat-volumes = no -- Mauro Santos
Re: [arch-general] OT: [arch-dev-public] polkit package upgrade patch
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 1:23 AM, Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: If that is true it is completely wrong from the start. Because that setup can't be maintained when a second app starts playing which can happen at any time. Suppose that first (single) app has its volume set to some low value, and PA uses the soundcard PCM gain control to achieve that as you claim it does. Now suddenly there's a second app which wants a higher level. The only way to achieve that is to raise the hardware gain - you can't compensate for a low setting there by sending a louder signal, it would just clip. So PA now has to adjust the hardware gain and at the same time start scaling down the output from the first app. It's impossible to do that in any acceptable way. Yet that's exactly what it does. And on my system (HDAudio) I have not noticed any changes in the volume of the first stream, even as the Master mixer control jumped levels. Maybe ask the devs for details.
Re: [arch-general] systemd fsck
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On 08/11/2012 04:09 AM, Mantas Mikulėnas wrote:
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 6:27 AM, David Benfell
benf...@parts-unknown.org wrote:
2) But I did notice an error that worried me--just because it
looks worrying--as it came up:
Aug 09 13:34:36 graton systemd-fsck[270]: /dev/sda3 is mounted.
Aug 09 13:34:36 graton systemd-fsck[270]: e2fsck: Cannot
continue, aborting. Aug 09 13:34:36 graton systemd-fsck[270]:
fsck failed with error code 8. Aug 09 13:34:36 graton
systemd-fsck[270]: Ignoring error. Aug 09 13:34:36 graton
systemd-fsck[289]: /dev/sdb1: clean, 398077/33554432 files,
27916145/134217728 blocks Aug 09 13:34:36 graton
systemd-fsck[287]: /dev/sdb3: clean, 647214/21102592 files,
26531961/84405504 blocks Aug 09 13:34:36 graton
systemd-fsck[348]: /dev/sda4: clean, 1650719/59490304 files,
57620902/237931957 blocks Aug 09 13:34:37 graton
systemd-fsck[320]: /dev/sda1: clean, 33/10040 files, 22152/40160
blocks Aug 09 13:34:37 graton systemd-fsck[293]: /dev/sdb2:
clean, 4926903/67125248 files, 195736925/268500992 blocks
/dev/sda3 is the root partition.
Does your kernel have the ro option specified? I know little
about this, but I think ext34 partitions cannot be checked while
mounted read-write and the usual way of doing this for the root
partition has been to add ro to the kernel command line, and to
remount the root partition read-write after checking it. (Though
running the check from initramfs might be an even better method,
Arch here has an option for that.)
You're absolutely right that ext{2,3,4} partitions need to be
read-only for fsck. The latter throws up a very scary warning if you
try to run it on a partition mounted read-write. Here's the kernel
line from /boot/grub/menu.lst (haven't converted to grub2 yet):
kernel /vmlinuz-linux
root=/dev/disk/by-uuid/a7f84383-2cc2-4d70-adb5-3bf909a3f99b loglevel=3
ro quiet splash
resume=/dev/disk/by-uuid/2d185a12-115f-4f93-99a3-bfca4d0fc216
init=/bin/systemd
- --
David Benfell
benf...@parts-unknown.org
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Re: [arch-general] KDE and plasma-desktop CPU usage
2012/8/12 Shridhar Daithankar ghodech...@ghodechhap.net: On Saturday 11 Aug 2012 5:59:58 PM Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Sat, 2012-08-11 at 19:40 +0530, Shridhar Daithankar wrote: Google is not much of help. Any suggestions before I report the bug upstream? pacman -Rdd phonon-gstreamer pacman -S phonon-vlc - https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=133359 https://www.google.de/search?q=plasma%20desktop%20100%25% 20cpuie=utf-8oe=utf-8aq=trls=org.mozilla:en-US:officialclient=firefox-a source=hpchannel=np Not required. I solved it shortly after the post. I was poking around and noticed that $HOME/.kde4/share/config did not have any plasma related file. So I copied following files from my desktop machine plasma-appletsrc plasma-desktop-appletsrc plasma-desktoprc plasmarc plasma-windowed-appletsrc And now I have a functioning KDE desktop in 300MB RAM :) I am going to reproduce this again and report a bug upstream. I have the same problem. In my case, two method can solve by pass it: 1. export LOCAL=c 2. remove the clock applet Leon -- Regards Shridhar
Re: [arch-general] OT: [arch-dev-public] polkit package upgrade patch
On Sun, 2012-08-12 at 00:15 +0200, Tom Gundersen wrote: On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:03 AM, Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: So imagine the average desktop user who gets five or so of them: - one provided by the application (player or something) - one provided by PA or similar, - probably two by the soundcard mixer, PA combines these three into one. So the non-audio-engineer user should have a lot bigger chance of not messing things up with PA compared to with pure ALSA (where you do have to fiddle with all the mixers and the application mixer on top). Sorry if this was what you were trying to point out. Pff! http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/PulseAudio/Backends/ALSA/Decibel Muahaha. Mauahahahahah! - Lennart Poettering Regards, Ralf
Re: [arch-general] OT: [arch-dev-public] polkit package upgrade patch
On 12-08-2012 00:41, Baho Utot wrote: On 08/11/2012 07:37 PM, Mauro Santos wrote: On 11-08-2012 23:33, Baho Utot wrote: On 08/11/2012 06:15 PM, Tom Gundersen wrote: On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 12:03 AM, Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: So imagine the average desktop user who gets five or so of them: - one provided by the application (player or something) - one provided by PA or similar, - probably two by the soundcard mixer, PA combines these three into one. So the non-audio-engineer user should have a lot bigger chance of not messing things up with PA compared to with pure ALSA (where you do have to fiddle with all the mixers and the application mixer on top). Sorry if this was what you were trying to point out. -t As a non-audio-engineer trying to adjust the sound level in vlc PA keep messing up my sound level (going to full 100%) any time I tried to adjust it. Just ask my wife for conformation as she didn't like the 100% volume every time I adjusted the sound level in vlc or xmms etc. So try to adjust the volume I did.but wait I'll get it right this timeTurn the damn thing down She screamed. Ok just let me. TURN THE DAMN THING OFF!!! Removed PA and only using ALSA equals working properly. As a bonus there is peace in the house ;) Did you try flat-volumes = no No just ripped out PA. That returned me back to what worked for me. That might have solved that particular problem. However it is still odd that the default is to have flat-volumes = yes, which causes system wide jumps in volume every single time any app changes its volume. Not very user friendly for something that aims to be easy to use :p. I don't have any complains with the machine I use now though. -- Mauro Santos
Re: [arch-general] systemd fsck
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/11/2012 05:26 AM, Aurko Roy wrote: An error code of 8 for fsck means an operational error/general failure. Do you get this error every time you boot or is it a one off thing? Have you tried running it manually? To the first question, I don't know. I know I have occasionally--rarely enough that I forget--had trouble with large partitions (it didn't seem to appear before I had disks that had partitions larger than 500GB) where I needed to run e2fsck on them to clear a warning. This didn't even occur to me as something to check because I was focused on the system coming up for the first time under systemd. So I rebooted off a CD-ROM and ran e2fsck manually (with -fy), it ran cleanly, and when I rebooted off the hard drive, it came up cleanly. Thanks! - -- David Benfell benf...@parts-unknown.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJQJvHwAAoJELT202JKF+xpz7AP/01maId1jpRXB8vd215/hqL/ ApsWMe432qPOFO89jcsi4OHUdqp6NRWDLMZlMwP4/pEvNubYZ5zOq32GHsAGc4JU 7L1gWMta8MfBWNM5h4iQfeI2qtpgnio9t9rUJvkljQs7vyxDOPHyRL6dvvK5Tkoy eEoSpszOiI5u5JSSkfANOCFPc2FGYUOlkQNAUTzx9DCR08rX47osYDBnf/Vyr3q2 IOKvnXVEl8sH+vRcUWTkowN9nnw0ForUTLj2xFKmksX73BCPugRsQbqwnJOwMQ+k PTL5ah7UY4Y0jzTXumu7fYKdQJUra8llPnGeLf6Lkb0ZAK04wel4hV7hAX5T7D63 pbcNRVcj+6gt91QPi5iMUmjQdEMz4NRfMWbrEzm0lmNZn+IoG9UFQ4JpZrCidI92 n4yGhwERIvnS2CBOWgIAcTWXHc8Ktfy0fRBFnU1HcB4/zhoOr6+43LeUvt4NsRdC 801gvf5rNCT8IB8K6zqGrYv48n5As1hsiIX+z66hgmc1FD7Rt7gvHCLAFSPFZ7s8 i8rmpesIeAKJxpXJblTPmOCw1QkzcOTKFKnsqBBTx/g9LTBy2ux1BaXnKHRINzBq dBLLi3Ev+idKxpXjpmuqlXzRKtis7n2BfPpOTO0qnJPK5pCfyn74lB1YHFEeYlXO 88O8g8G2O6JOkFpVX7vr =HOz6 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [arch-general] OT: [arch-dev-public] polkit package upgrade patch
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 01:41:01AM +0200, Jan Steffens wrote: On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 1:23 AM, Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: If that is true it is completely wrong from the start. Because that setup can't be maintained when a second app starts playing which can happen at any time. Suppose that first (single) app has its volume set to some low value, and PA uses the soundcard PCM gain control to achieve that as you claim it does. Now suddenly there's a second app which wants a higher level. The only way to achieve that is to raise the hardware gain - you can't compensate for a low setting there by sending a louder signal, it would just clip. So PA now has to adjust the hardware gain and at the same time start scaling down the output from the first app. It's impossible to do that in any acceptable way. Yet that's exactly what it does. And on my system (HDAudio) I have not noticed any changes in the volume of the first stream, even as the Master mixer control jumped levels. This is completely sick. Any audio engineer trying to use a mixer that way would (and should) be fired for gross incompetence - immediately. Ciao, -- FA A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia. It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)
Re: [arch-general] OT: [arch-dev-public] polkit package upgrade patch
On Sun, 2012-08-12 at 01:41 +0200, Jan Steffens wrote: On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 1:23 AM, Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: If that is true it is completely wrong from the start. Because that setup can't be maintained when a second app starts playing which can happen at any time. Suppose that first (single) app has its volume set to some low value, and PA uses the soundcard PCM gain control to achieve that as you claim it does. Now suddenly there's a second app which wants a higher level. The only way to achieve that is to raise the hardware gain - you can't compensate for a low setting there by sending a louder signal, it would just clip. So PA now has to adjust the hardware gain and at the same time start scaling down the output from the first app. It's impossible to do that in any acceptable way. Yet that's exactly what it does. And on my system (HDAudio) I have not noticed any changes in the volume of the first stream, even as the Master mixer control jumped levels. Maybe ask the devs for details. http://mailman.archlinux.org/pipermail/arch-general/2012-August/029596.html
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 1:37 AM, David Benfell benf...@parts-unknown.org wrote: How much of this is the distribution and how much of this is gnome? Mostly upstream (depends of course a bit on which package you have in mind). If an app links against libpulse it means that it would crash if libpulse is not installed, so we add a dependency on libpulse. A dependency that does not cause the app to misbehave if it is not installed (such as plugins, etc) should (in general) be an optdepend. -t
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sun, 2012-08-12 at 02:28 +0200, Tom Gundersen wrote: On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 1:37 AM, David Benfell benf...@parts-unknown.org wrote: How much of this is the distribution and how much of this is gnome? Mostly upstream (depends of course a bit on which package you have in mind). If an app links against libpulse it means that it would crash if libpulse is not installed, so we add a dependency on libpulse. A dependency that does not cause the app to misbehave if it is not installed (such as plugins, etc) should (in general) be an optdepend. https://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=48718 Nothing bad happens, if pulseaudio (not libpulse), is a dummy package. So why is pulseaudio a dependency and not optional?
Re: [arch-general] What can be deleted, when not using systemd - was: polkit package upgrade patch
On Sun, 2012-08-12 at 02:34 +0200, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Sun, 2012-08-12 at 02:28 +0200, Tom Gundersen wrote: On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 1:37 AM, David Benfell benf...@parts-unknown.org wrote: How much of this is the distribution and how much of this is gnome? Mostly upstream (depends of course a bit on which package you have in mind). If an app links against libpulse it means that it would crash if libpulse is not installed, so we add a dependency on libpulse. A dependency that does not cause the app to misbehave if it is not installed (such as plugins, etc) should (in general) be an optdepend. https://aur.archlinux.org/packages.php?ID=48718 Nothing bad happens, if pulseaudio (not libpulse), is a dummy package. So why is pulseaudio a dependency and not optional? To make it clear, I'm speaking for a regular gnome-settings-daemon.
Re: [arch-general] OT: [arch-dev-public] polkit package upgrade patch
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 1:23 AM, Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: This is not correct. If the app has proper PA support (such as all KDE apps, and probably all gnome apps), then PA does the app specific mixing, not the app itself. That doesn't stop the app from having its own internal volume control that PA doesn't know about. That would not be proper PA support. An app can do all sorts of stupid stuff of course. Moreover, if only one app is playing sound then PA does no mixing at all, but passes it all directly to ALSA (and sets ALSA's controls of course). If that is true it is completely wrong from the start. Because that setup can't be maintained when a second app starts playing which can happen at any time. Suppose that first (single) app has its volume set to some low value, and PA uses the soundcard PCM gain control to achieve that as you claim it does. Now suddenly there's a second app which wants a higher level. The only way to achieve that is to raise the hardware gain - you can't compensate for a low setting there by sending a louder signal, it would just clip. So PA now has to adjust the hardware gain and at the same time start scaling down the output from the first app. It's impossible to do that in any acceptable way. That's how it works. I have not noticed any problems. How would the problems manifest themselves? I'm not an audio expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I think even I would be able to notice skipping, clipping, noise, ... What should I be listening for? Simple fact is that most soundcards, even if they have a 'mixer', can't mix PCM signals (i.e. signals from the software) - they can mix in a CD player, or an external mic input etc.). So for anything coming from the system there is just one path, which has two controls, the 'PCM' and the 'master'. The only way to correctly use them if there if there is software mixing is to set them once to their correct values (which may depend on what is connected externally), and them leave them alone and do the rest in software. So that's apparently not how it is done in PA. Why must it be done in this way? How can I verify that there is a problem? And then we haven't even touched the matter of different sample rates. It is correct that PA does not (cannot) change the sample rate on the fly. You have to pick one and stick to it (so if you pick the wrong one it will resample). 'A lot of meta-information' LOL. It will provide some usually meaningless and inconsistent names of controls, their min and max values, and if you're extremely lucky maybe some indication mapping control values to dB, which may or may not be correct (and if it isn't that's not ALSA's fault, it just crappy and undocumented harware). All of that is visible in alsamixer. Yes, this is exactly what PA uses. ALAS just displays it without using it. Yes, absolutely. It may take the user some time to understand the quirks of his soundcard (such as that it's not capable of outputting full digital level without distortion, no matter how the controls are set, or even crappier shortcomings). But he will usually find a way to get things working. Which is impossible without hearing the result. Maybe PA has some magic powers to do that. It seems to me that PA is much better than this than what I am. I used to struggle with getting my laptop to output the exact volume I wanted without clipping, but now PA does its magic and it just works. I won't claim to know everything about this topic, but I'm interested in hearing more about why you claim that what PA does is impossible. -t
Re: [arch-general] OT: [arch-dev-public] polkit package upgrade patch
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 2:05 AM, Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: This is completely sick. Any audio engineer trying to use a mixer that way would (and should) be fired for gross incompetence - immediately. Argument by authority, nice. Care to elaborate? (Sorry to anyone who is sick of PA, but for once I'm seeing the chance to learn something from one of these threads ;-)). If the problem is too complex to explain in layman terms, that's understandable. However, is the problem one that would be unacceptable in a professional setting (e.g. a recording studio, ...) as it would cause subtle issues. Or is it a problem that I should be able to observe on my crappy speakers at home? If so, what am I listening for? How would I go about reproducing it? Cheers, Tom
Re: [arch-general] OT: [arch-dev-public] polkit package upgrade patch
On Sun, 2012-08-12 at 02:43 +0200, Tom Gundersen wrote: On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 1:23 AM, Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: If that is true it is completely wrong from the start. Because that setup can't be maintained when a second app starts playing which can happen at any time. Suppose that first (single) app has its volume set to some low value, and PA uses the soundcard PCM gain control to achieve that as you claim it does. Now suddenly there's a second app which wants a higher level. The only way to achieve that is to raise the hardware gain - you can't compensate for a low setting there by sending a louder signal, it would just clip. So PA now has to adjust the hardware gain and at the same time start scaling down the output from the first app. It's impossible to do that in any acceptable way. That's how it works. I have not noticed any problems. How would the problems manifest themselves? I'm not an audio expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I think even I would be able to notice skipping, clipping, noise, ... What should I be listening for? It only can work without clipping, if first the volume is lowered with more headroom than needed, because you can't know how much headroom you exactly need and then the second volume will be raised until an equal level is reached and this step by step. But how does PA know at what step the level is equal, when the audio signal isn't a constant tone? Poettering expect a perfect control values to dB(FS) mapping?! You at least will hear skipping. Or else, Poettering add at the end of the chain a hardcore multi-band compression, which would be very audible and unwanted too. Simple fact is that most soundcards, even if they have a 'mixer', can't mix PCM signals (i.e. signals from the software) - they can mix in a CD player, or an external mic input etc.). So for anything coming from the system there is just one path, which has two controls, the 'PCM' and the 'master'. The only way to correctly use them if there if there is software mixing is to set them once to their correct values (which may depend on what is connected externally), and them leave them alone and do the rest in software. So that's apparently not how it is done in PA. Why must it be done in this way? How can I verify that there is a problem? The analog output level has to fit to the input of your amplifier, to reduce noise and to avoid distortion. 'A lot of meta-information' LOL. It will provide some usually meaningless and inconsistent names of controls, their min and max values, and if you're extremely lucky maybe some indication mapping control values to dB, which may or may not be correct (and if it isn't that's not ALSA's fault, it just crappy and undocumented harware). All of that is visible in alsamixer. Yes, this is exactly what PA uses. ALAS just displays it without using it. So PA does use Voodoo?!
Re: [arch-general] Why is scribus installing gimp-light-2.6.11?
2012/8/11 Leonid Isaev lis...@umail.iu.edu: On Sat, 11 Aug 2012 17:29:46 -0500 David C. Rankin drankina...@suddenlinkmail.com wrote: On 08/10/2012 02:25 AM, Rashif Ray Rahman wrote: I can't believe this. You are an Arch user and it never occurred to you that you should go check with a pacman -Ss gimp-light, and then when there is no result, check the AUR? How about a pacman -Si scribus? Believe it. Here, the issue isn't can't you check, the issue is why did scribus attempt to satisfy a dependency with gimp-light? That is why I posted the question. I had never seen pacman attempt to satisfy and dependency with a non-existent or aur package before. But it did. The lack of a gimp-light caused pacman to fail to upgrade anything. Thus, the post. The questions wasn't why isn't gimp-light in the repos? or Is AUR the only place for gimp-light?, the question was why/how is scribus looking for it in the first place? It doesn't. Either you have a broken system or a voodoo magician nearby (and we don't believe in magic). What was the exact error of pacman? -- Leonid Isaev GnuPG key: 0x164B5A6D Fingerprint: C0DF 20D0 C075 C3F1 E1BE 775A A7AE F6CB 164B 5A6D Indeed it doesn't, David. It seems 'gimp-light' provides 'gimp', so probably it is needed for some other package of yours. Maybe you can reproduce the error e paste in here ? Rafael
[arch-general] Chromium usage of KDE proxy fixed
Hi, Just realized that chromium now uses the KDE proxy settings properly now. :-) Awesome work. Thanks to whoever did it. :-) :-) -- Cheers and Regards Jayesh Badwaik stop html mail | always bottom-post www.asciiribbon.org | www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
