Re: [arch-general] Personal note
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 07:27:29PM +0200, Tom Gundersen wrote: Hi guys, As most devs have done already, I'm going to change my relationship with arch-general. This probably does not matter to most of you, so sorry for the noise. Then again, it might be a useful reminder about how most devs interact with the list (or rather, how they do not). My approach to arch-general used to be: 1) to scan it for bug reports and feedback related to my corner of the Arch world, and follow up on whatever bugs/problems/questions I could. 2) to correct anything that I considered misinformation about the same. I am no longer able to keep up with this, so I will: 1) stop dealing with bugs reported on the mailing-list, please report anything to the bug tracker. 2) just accept that the world is full of misinformation and baseless speculations and not engage with it any longer. This is mostly for the sake of my own sanity, but also because I think my continued presence on this mailing list decreases rather than increases the current abysmal quality of discussion. Lastly, I'd like to add that I have appreciated the many constructions conversations on the list. Cheers, Tom Sorry to see you have decided to leave arch-general, Tom, and it's also sad to see that another channel of communication with the developers damaged. Although it is totally understandable, especially with the quality of threads on arch-general as of late. (Oh how I miss the days when Arch's developers and users were like brothers and sisters. It is the price we paid for growing so as fast, I guess.) Still, I want to tell you that I appreciated all of your effort to try and educate as well as correct any misunderstandings people might have on various topics. Many times when I read the list I'm amazed at all the patience you have shown in many threads, especially since many replies you got were less than... polite, shall we say. You really have the patience of a saint. Lastly, I want to tell you and other developers that me and many users are also tired of all these recent drama against systemd as much as the developers do. It's package signing fiasco all over again. Best regards, Smith
Re: [arch-general] Personal note
As a long term, quite silent user, the systemd drama does not struck me as special, new or exceedingly dramatic. I remember analogous, heated discussions also when the arch community was much smaller. E.g., I remember a devfs --- udev transition drama, and a monolithic xfree --- modular xorg one. In both cases, a minority was in favour of delaying or avoiding the change with a mix of technical and political reasons. In both cases the devs decided to follow upstream for the best. Obviously any case is potentially different, but a bit of historical memory can help to relativize the psychological aspects. Giorgio Lando
Re: [arch-general] Personal note
On 16 August 2012 07:20, Martin Cigorraga m...@archlinux.us wrote: Baho: it's sad to see you leave pal but in the future try to not let things bring you down so easily, the world is full of suckers and the sooner you learn to live with that the better. Tom: I will miss your answers, they were often very useful and make help understand a bit more the inner workings of Arch and GNU/Linux in general. As proposed above I too am in favor of a new arch-users-technical list with little to no tolerance at all to flaming, ranting and general dick size wars, +1 to it. As for this list and if most of the devs and savvy guys are already unsubscribed it should be observed how it behaves in next few days or weeks and if it becomes irrelevant _close_ it. The best thing about this list was it's superior technical discussions over the forums but should arch-general become watered I don't see a real need to keep it running... Yes, I know there are some people that follows mailing lists and never put a step on the forums but hey, the forum aren't too ackward if you're subscribed to the different threads. Regards, Martin -- -msx Hey Tom, sad to see you take this stance but I can understand, I am considering unsubscribing from this too as the noise about certain things is getting to me I wonder how this list is going to continue to function as a portal for general support of arch linux. As i said in a different thread it is all beginning to sound like the south park crowd scene: rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble shame they do not stick to the policy of the list's -- Regards Tom Rand
Re: [arch-general] Personal note
Am 15.08.2012 21:43, schrieb Tom Gundersen: On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 9:01 PM, Karol Blazewicz karol.blazew...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 7:27 PM, Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no wrote: Hi guys, As most devs have done already, I'm going to change my relationship with arch-general. What is the preferred way to contact you or other devs with questions or suggestions (better wording for an announcement etc.)? We don't currently have a satisfactory answer to this question. Hopefully a solution will present itself soon, I know people are discussing the problem. After all, we DO want useful feedback, and there IS really good feedback inbeetween all the rest. I guess important stuff should still be picked up by someone, alternatively you could cc the relevant dev (who e.g. wrote the news item, etc.). -t what about cleaning arch-general by creating a new list (arch-offtopic, arch-flame etc) and moving those diskussion there just a spontaneous idea
Re: [arch-general] Personal note
On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 10:45 AM, G. Schlisio g.schli...@gmx.de wrote: Am 15.08.2012 21:43, schrieb Tom Gundersen: We don't currently have a satisfactory answer to this question. Hopefully a solution will present itself soon, I know people are discussing the problem. After all, we DO want useful feedback, and there IS really good feedback inbeetween all the rest. I guess important stuff should still be picked up by someone, alternatively you could cc the relevant dev (who e.g. wrote the news item, etc.). -t what about cleaning arch-general by creating a new list (arch-offtopic, arch-flame etc) and moving those diskussion there just a spontaneous idea Why go through all this trouble creating new lists? Issue a warning when discussion goes nowhere, mute few selected people from both sides for a week and that's it. I believe this was done before? Bitching about bitching just creates more noise. Regards,
Re: [arch-general] Personal note
2012/8/16 Vytautas Stankevičius brothe...@gmail.com: On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 10:45 AM, G. Schlisio g.schli...@gmx.de wrote: Am 15.08.2012 21:43, schrieb Tom Gundersen: [...] what about cleaning arch-general by creating a new list (arch-offtopic, arch-flame etc) and moving those diskussion there just a spontaneous idea Why go through all this trouble creating new lists? Issue a warning when discussion goes nowhere, mute few selected people from both sides for a week and that's it. I believe this was done before? As such policies would just create more bitching, it's better to teach people how to use the ignore thread option from the mail client. If that feature is not available then the program isn't very suitable for reading mailinglists... For those not familiar with this type of behaviour: check out the history of the vi vs emacs wars. This kind of thing is normal for opensource. I guess Arch has become big now. Then again: we are already way too far from the original topic. To Tom and Baho: sorry to see you leave, but i understand. Good luck! mvg, Guus
[arch-general] Personal note
Hi guys, As most devs have done already, I'm going to change my relationship with arch-general. This probably does not matter to most of you, so sorry for the noise. Then again, it might be a useful reminder about how most devs interact with the list (or rather, how they do not). My approach to arch-general used to be: 1) to scan it for bug reports and feedback related to my corner of the Arch world, and follow up on whatever bugs/problems/questions I could. 2) to correct anything that I considered misinformation about the same. I am no longer able to keep up with this, so I will: 1) stop dealing with bugs reported on the mailing-list, please report anything to the bug tracker. 2) just accept that the world is full of misinformation and baseless speculations and not engage with it any longer. This is mostly for the sake of my own sanity, but also because I think my continued presence on this mailing list decreases rather than increases the current abysmal quality of discussion. Lastly, I'd like to add that I have appreciated the many constructions conversations on the list. Cheers, Tom
Re: [arch-general] Personal note
On 08/15/2012 01:27 PM, Tom Gundersen wrote: Hi guys, As most devs have done already, I'm going to change my relationship with arch-general. This probably does not matter to most of you, so sorry for the noise. Then again, it might be a useful reminder about how most devs interact with the list (or rather, how they do not). My approach to arch-general used to be: 1) to scan it for bug reports and feedback related to my corner of the Arch world, and follow up on whatever bugs/problems/questions I could. 2) to correct anything that I considered misinformation about the same. I am no longer able to keep up with this, so I will: 1) stop dealing with bugs reported on the mailing-list, please report anything to the bug tracker. 2) just accept that the world is full of misinformation and baseless speculations and not engage with it any longer. This is mostly for the sake of my own sanity, but also because I think my continued presence on this mailing list decreases rather than increases the current abysmal quality of discussion. Lastly, I'd like to add that I have appreciated the many constructions conversations on the list. Cheers, Tom I will do you one better I will be unsubscribing to all arch mailing lists and taking my leave. This is why I have left the arch community for other waters...Too many personal attacks when I have tried to post here. Yes I may have said things in a way that others could not understand but I am not a English speaking person. This list should be used for help etc not to denigrate , But others just want to start dick size wars which I am not interested in and have no time for. You know who you are I hope your self indulgence full fills your wishes. No one posting on list lists deserve to be treated in this manner no matter what is posted, Telling posters to F off etc. If you don't like what is posted then just ignore it... that is what filters are for. It is a sad day today for humanity and I shall take my leave. PS: Those that want to insult me (again you know who you are) go right ahead if it makes you feel good. Sorry I wont' see your insults. Good luck and Good nite Mabuhay
Re: [arch-general] Personal note
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 10:57 PM, Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no wrote: Hi guys, As most devs have done already, I'm going to change my relationship with arch-general. This probably does not matter to most of you, so sorry for the noise. Then again, it might be a useful reminder about how most devs interact with the list (or rather, how they do not). My approach to arch-general used to be: 1) to scan it for bug reports and feedback related to my corner of the Arch world, and follow up on whatever bugs/problems/questions I could. 2) to correct anything that I considered misinformation about the same. I am no longer able to keep up with this, so I will: 1) stop dealing with bugs reported on the mailing-list, please report anything to the bug tracker. 2) just accept that the world is full of misinformation and baseless speculations and not engage with it any longer. This is mostly for the sake of my own sanity, but also because I think my continued presence on this mailing list decreases rather than increases the current abysmal quality of discussion. Lastly, I'd like to add that I have appreciated the many constructions conversations on the list. Cheers, Tom Sorry to see you go. Although I don't post much here I do read and appreciate your prompt and very informative responses to the various issues that are on arch-general. If this is because of the recent flame-wars over systemd, couldn't you just ignore (filter out) those messages and concentrate on real, technical issues that are (occasionally) posted here? Thank you for your contributions. -- Aurko Roy GPG key: 0x20C5BC31 Fingerprint:76B4 9677 15BE 731D 1949 85BA 2A31 B442 20C5 BC31
Re: [arch-general] Personal note
On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 13:47:10 -0400 Baho Utot baho-u...@columbus.rr.com wrote: Those that want to insult me (again you know who you are) go right ahead if it makes you feel good. Sorry I wont' see your insults. Good luck and Good nite Mabuhay http://youtu.be/ey0wvGiAH9g Not that I have ever insulted you before :)
Re: [arch-general] Personal note
On 15/08/2012 1:27 PM, Tom Gundersen wrote: Hi guys, As most devs have done already, I'm going to change my relationship with arch-general. This probably does not matter to most of you, so sorry for the noise. Then again, it might be a useful reminder about how most devs interact with the list (or rather, how they do not). My approach to arch-general used to be: 1) to scan it for bug reports and feedback related to my corner of the Arch world, and follow up on whatever bugs/problems/questions I could. 2) to correct anything that I considered misinformation about the same. I am no longer able to keep up with this, so I will: 1) stop dealing with bugs reported on the mailing-list, please report anything to the bug tracker. 2) just accept that the world is full of misinformation and baseless speculations and not engage with it any longer. This is mostly for the sake of my own sanity, but also because I think my continued presence on this mailing list decreases rather than increases the current abysmal quality of discussion. I noticed in arch-dev that there was a lot of frustration with the quality of discussion on arch-general these days. I think it's very unfortunate that the noise to signal ratio has gotten to the point where we have one less way of communicating with the devs. There are very few avenues already. Sorry to see you (and the others devs, and the TUs) go. Stephen E. Baker
Re: [arch-general] Personal note
I will do you one better I will be unsubscribing to all arch mailing lists and taking my leave. I may have been annoying to some in my own hopefully non offensive capacity but I've seen a couple of people with good arguments have them taken apart or twisted on mute points and then pointlessly abused. I'm afraid that happens with so many readers tuned in, don't take it too hard and keep me informed of your endeavours with LFS or whatever other distro if you can. p.s. I haven't looked at the details yet but the Android init system looks closer to OpenBSDs than sysVinit, if your interested for your own small set of packages. Good Luck, Kc -- ___ 'Write programs that do one thing and do it well. Write programs to work together. Write programs to handle text streams, because that is a universal interface' (Doug McIlroy) ___
Re: [arch-general] Personal note
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 7:27 PM, Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no wrote: Hi guys, As most devs have done already, I'm going to change my relationship with arch-general. What is the preferred way to contact you or other devs with questions or suggestions (better wording for an announcement etc.)? I know some devs frequent the forum, but it seems that a bug report or feature request in bugtracker is the way - did I get it right? http://mailman.archlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/arch-general says Questions, problems, and new development ideas can be posted here. and while it's still true, I understand I shouldn't count on a developer answering it? Maybe arch-general's description should be changed then.
Re: [arch-general] Personal note
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 9:01 PM, Karol Blazewicz karol.blazew...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 7:27 PM, Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no wrote: Hi guys, As most devs have done already, I'm going to change my relationship with arch-general. What is the preferred way to contact you or other devs with questions or suggestions (better wording for an announcement etc.)? We don't currently have a satisfactory answer to this question. Hopefully a solution will present itself soon, I know people are discussing the problem. After all, we DO want useful feedback, and there IS really good feedback inbeetween all the rest. I guess important stuff should still be picked up by someone, alternatively you could cc the relevant dev (who e.g. wrote the news item, etc.). -t
Re: [arch-general] Personal note
Tom, I for one am sorry to see that you have had to become less active on this list. I have found your contributions to be quite valuable. Furthermore, I want to personally thank you for helping to solve one of very few problems I have had with Linux in general, and Arch Linux specifically. I am of course referring to my problem with GRUB and BTRFS on a flash drive. I have since passed on the solution involving a separate /boot partition and syslinux to others who have had boot issues, and it seems to work flawlessly. I do hope you will still be around in the future to help answer other specific questions members may have. Thanks very much for all you do. ~Kyle -- Kyle is a droid. The whole world knows it. This e-mail shows it.
Re: [arch-general] Personal note
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 8:43 PM, Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no wrote: On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 9:01 PM, Karol Blazewicz karol.blazew...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 7:27 PM, Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no wrote: Hi guys, As most devs have done already, I'm going to change my relationship with arch-general. What is the preferred way to contact you or other devs with questions or suggestions (better wording for an announcement etc.)? We don't currently have a satisfactory answer to this question. Hopefully a solution will present itself soon, I know people are discussing the problem. After all, we DO want useful feedback, and there IS really good feedback inbeetween all the rest. I guess important stuff should still be picked up by someone, alternatively you could cc the relevant dev (who e.g. wrote the news item, etc.). You know I have been watching this really destructive war of attrition on this list for quite some time - and it is reminiscent of the long flame wars that occurred on the Fedora general list that led me to unsubscribe from the Fedora list and start looking at Arch as the distribution for my laptops. It was such a pleasure to see sensible posts and great and helpful replies on the arch list when I first subscribed to them. It only takes a few very argumentative individuals to destroy the civilised structure of such a mailing list and I hope that calm and good sense can return to the lists so that people can read and post good constructive discussions and move forward instead of backwards. I have grown to value so much that happens in arch, and the sensible approach to the way arch delivers its packages - I really hope that this can continue without big rifts between a few players. Arch has become one of the big distributions - hopefully it will continue to be so. -- mike c
Re: [arch-general] Personal note
On 15/08/12 at 09:43pm, Tom Gundersen wrote: On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 9:01 PM, Karol Blazewicz karol.blazew...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 7:27 PM, Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no wrote: Hi guys, As most devs have done already, I'm going to change my relationship with arch-general. What is the preferred way to contact you or other devs with questions or suggestions (better wording for an announcement etc.)? We don't currently have a satisfactory answer to this question. Hopefully a solution will present itself soon, I know people are discussing the problem. After all, we DO want useful feedback, and there IS really good feedback inbeetween all the rest. I guess important stuff should still be picked up by someone, alternatively you could cc the relevant dev (who e.g. wrote the news item, etc.). -t Sadly this does not surprise me at all. I do appreciate your efforts. Mnay tnaks -- Dave.
Re: [arch-general] Personal note
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/15/2012 12:51 PM, mike cloaked wrote: On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 8:43 PM, Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no wrote: On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 9:01 PM, Karol Blazewicz karol.blazew...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 7:27 PM, Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no wrote: Hi guys, As most devs have done already, I'm going to change my relationship with arch-general. What is the preferred way to contact you or other devs with questions or suggestions (better wording for an announcement etc.)? We don't currently have a satisfactory answer to this question. Hopefully a solution will present itself soon, I know people are discussing the problem. After all, we DO want useful feedback, and there IS really good feedback inbeetween all the rest. I guess important stuff should still be picked up by someone, alternatively you could cc the relevant dev (who e.g. wrote the news item, etc.). You know I have been watching this really destructive war of attrition on this list for quite some time - and it is reminiscent of the long flame wars that occurred on the Fedora general list that led me to unsubscribe from the Fedora list and start looking at Arch as the distribution for my laptops. And numerous other places. As far as I know, the problem has never been solved and has laid waste in nearly all of them, with the result that support has become harder to find. There is almost always a tension between those who know what they are doing and those who don't. In my own field, I lose patience with naves rather quickly, so I'm hardly in a position to lecture anyone about this. That said, by contrast, there are a few developers out there who seem gifted at the human relations part of this, are brilliant at the hand-holding that is sometimes needed, and I think are not so often recognized. They're also often working on ancillary projects for which there are easy alternatives rather than core stuff. Distributions, init, the kernel, even desktop environments I think fall into this latter category where replacement can mean ripping out a lot of stuff and building from scratch. Our (emphasis on the collective) failure to solve this, however, is debilitating, not only for existing users for whom support is harder to find, but in terms of attracting future users, not just to Arch but to the open source community in general. - -- David Benfell benf...@parts-unknown.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJQLAoXAAoJELT202JKF+xpsugP/376qgYAavGkC4CYcU2UVRHF PbsrnM4MxGvhFdR+RdiwzVOiAZdKlS21I5C/FU2z3v+Jx60RdsqDXTJf7cZl6bmB rGhOTRgQrxx5FeNIy7cn2A0MaaeteVLTPLuEx1vN+wvFemVUG3snUkO5CWYVWH9k 64e1j2nv+BhLMc1McsRZg7SB2LPBX6Y3DwIGK3t7TAR1e8+hy8FJEkN4aqM6NjxA ca0uFUX2PIp2jCL+L0HSe7CCY8lhcNnciX1KJLQwvr1L6SfwPonVZtVq/xajeQh4 rLmipfYb5qT+sfdO1pLXOIwQ0ctuQc6fL6HTd5vSDeISSL+YjPohN+/88lj3Rtv2 nD9gqj8AkVE3crfqJlCP6VUlLRv1R7WZ8MuqOqdcnMP1XnY1Lc1UsUoxhRvvCAWP oYbj4n7PJwnYxm+eeOApan8oFyABCtuD0CYsVhl2q254ePk6dLjYoqYzoBRKMm0Z qLIU2eB7vtMjvgMlQNwliY5ozcvBvfAEdhywilyuiObYPL+0h0vAyOUXDQjaIYlX 7jZaF/fSNQc+0Rokczia1zSgkK4zseqAVfVy2GGjwuLjOEN0vQ/MRTKrhEqT1ndr AQ0nO9hB6+H+EtlUF0BiisklvqEWxBOIpIN5SJEZAr9J0+AmsYXSyHS4TtqIjDd/ NwlQuAuoVgIpPvig+7GY =MPex -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [arch-general] Personal note
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 9:44 PM, David Benfell benf...@parts-unknown.org wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 08/15/2012 12:51 PM, mike cloaked wrote: On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 8:43 PM, Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no wrote: On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 9:01 PM, Karol Blazewicz karol.blazew...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 7:27 PM, Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no wrote: Hi guys, As most devs have done already, I'm going to change my relationship with arch-general. What is the preferred way to contact you or other devs with questions or suggestions (better wording for an announcement etc.)? We don't currently have a satisfactory answer to this question. Hopefully a solution will present itself soon, I know people are discussing the problem. After all, we DO want useful feedback, and there IS really good feedback inbeetween all the rest. I guess important stuff should still be picked up by someone, alternatively you could cc the relevant dev (who e.g. wrote the news item, etc.). You know I have been watching this really destructive war of attrition on this list for quite some time - and it is reminiscent of the long flame wars that occurred on the Fedora general list that led me to unsubscribe from the Fedora list and start looking at Arch as the distribution for my laptops. And numerous other places. As far as I know, the problem has never been solved and has laid waste in nearly all of them, with the result that support has become harder to find. There is almost always a tension between those who know what they are doing and those who don't. In my own field, I lose patience with naves rather quickly, so I'm hardly in a position to lecture anyone about this. That said, by contrast, there are a few developers out there who seem gifted at the human relations part of this, are brilliant at the hand-holding that is sometimes needed, and I think are not so often recognized. They're also often working on ancillary projects for which there are easy alternatives rather than core stuff. Distributions, init, the kernel, even desktop environments I think fall into this latter category where replacement can mean ripping out a lot of stuff and building from scratch. Our (emphasis on the collective) failure to solve this, however, is debilitating, not only for existing users for whom support is harder to find, but in terms of attracting future users, not just to Arch but to the open source community in general. Yes - sadly there are no winners in a war of attrition - and everyone loses - the good guys get blown away along with the tide of destruction which is so sad. It would be so much better if everyone really thought carefully about trying to contribute positively, and not negatively and destructively - people are much more likely to listen to reasoned argument and feel more likely they can add to the positive ideas being discussed. When it gets personal then that is usually the beginning of the end-game - it is pointless and you get the cycle of tornado damage - especially in such a public domain as a mailing list. The real shame is how it takes so few to create such a disaster - I hope that everyone who has contributed to this debacle will think carefully about what they have done - and I also hope that any key contributors who have felt at wit's end and want out, will be able to take time to let calm return so that they may be able to come back and feel that their contributions are valued - there is a huge silent majority who value hugely what the developers have created collectively and individually to make our system the capable and functional system that we run every day on our systems. I live in hope for an improved atmosphere on this list after a night's sleep and more settled thoughts. -- mike c
Re: [arch-general] Personal note
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 8:43 PM, Tom Gundersen t...@jklm.no wrote: ... As most devs have done already, I'm going to change my relationship with arch-general. Tom please stay engaged with user community. May I suggest instead the creation of a new list (something like): arch-users-technical with very, very low tolerance for non-technical (flame) posts - simply ban anyone who violates the rules. I try to help where I can - such as testing the things in testing repo and trying to keep up to date with LKML and sharing tidbits where relevant (e.g. iproute2 fix). Let's leave arch-general as therapeutic outlet for the flamers. Or, alternatively, just leave arch-general - and adjust as above (banning those who engage in inappropriate posts). On 08/15/2012 03:51 PM, mike cloaked wrote: ... on this list for quite some time - and it is reminiscent of the long flame wars that occurred on the Fedora general list that led me to I too left fedora no too long ago to join the Arch family (was a user since Red Hat 3) and truly enjoy the calm, technical, polite and focused discussions on arch. The Rolling release model is near perfect ... and Arch people are truly knowledgeable and friendly. And, with some small exceptions, polite and helpful. I am slowly moving all my installs to Arch ... You guys are great - don't let the small number of noisy ones destroy it. Gene P.S. I cc'd you directly Tom, in you have already left arch-general - hope that's ok.
Re: [arch-general] Personal note
On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 01:44:07PM -0700, David Benfell wrote: There is almost always a tension between those who know what they are doing and those who don't. There is also conflict between people who simply have different values.
Re: [arch-general] Personal note
On Wednesday 15 Aug 2012 7:27:29 PM Tom Gundersen wrote: Hi guys, As most devs have done already, I'm going to change my relationship with arch-general. This probably does not matter to most of you, so sorry for the noise. Then again, it might be a useful reminder about how most devs interact with the list (or rather, how they do not). My approach to arch-general used to be: 1) to scan it for bug reports and feedback related to my corner of the Arch world, and follow up on whatever bugs/problems/questions I could. 2) to correct anything that I considered misinformation about the same. I am no longer able to keep up with this, so I will: 1) stop dealing with bugs reported on the mailing-list, please report anything to the bug tracker. 2) just accept that the world is full of misinformation and baseless speculations and not engage with it any longer. This is mostly for the sake of my own sanity, but also because I think my continued presence on this mailing list decreases rather than increases the current abysmal quality of discussion. Pl. stay around. Accessible developers is a huge plus of arch community and it is really sad to see it recede. Ignore discussions/part-of-discussions that no longer stay technical but pl. don't leave. Your contributions are very valuable. For every vocal annoyance, there are a thousand happy and thankful users, even though they don't make their presence known. -- Regards Shridhar
Re: [arch-general] Personal note
On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 23:28:49 +0530, Aurko Roy roy.au...@gmail.com wrote: Sorry to see you go. Although I don't post much here I do read and appreciate your prompt and very informative responses to the various issues that are on arch-general. If this is because of the recent flame-wars over systemd, couldn't you just ignore (filter out) those messages and concentrate on real, technical issues that are (occasionally) posted here? perhaps that's asking too much from those who already dedicate a large part of their time to maintain develop this distro. this seems to be a universal problem: either you have an open mailing list, allowing newcomers and outsiders easy (write-) access, or you moderate, improving the signal-to-noise ratio, but stiffling the discussion and creating new problems, i.e., policies and their implementation will lead to their own flame wars. somewhere the creation of a new mailing list was proposed, but as i've seen at openSUSE, this creates another set of problems: fragmentation. in many cases it isn't clear which would be the appropriate list, resulting in cross-posting, and the need to subscribe to another bunch of lists just to stay informed. in this case, arch general becoming too noisy, i would suggest a different solution: create another (non-public) mailing list only for devs/maintainers, to which some old hands from arch general forward everything that's relevant, but keep the noise and newbee questions out. the filtering process and that new list shouldn't be public, avoiding endless discussions. fine-tuning of what to forward and what not could easily be dealt with by those 'old hands' and the devs in private. this way the developers wouldn't be cut off from all the feedback, and i'm pretty sure there's a few old archers around who wouldn't mind the extra effort. i would volunteer for that, but i'm very new to arch linux and this mailing list, having come from openSUSE a few months ago. Thank you for your contributions. +1 thanks a lot for this great distro! -- phani.
Re: [arch-general] Personal note
Baho: it's sad to see you leave pal but in the future try to not let things bring you down so easily, the world is full of suckers and the sooner you learn to live with that the better. Tom: I will miss your answers, they were often very useful and make help understand a bit more the inner workings of Arch and GNU/Linux in general. As proposed above I too am in favor of a new arch-users-technical list with little to no tolerance at all to flaming, ranting and general dick size wars, +1 to it. As for this list and if most of the devs and savvy guys are already unsubscribed it should be observed how it behaves in next few days or weeks and if it becomes irrelevant _close_ it. The best thing about this list was it's superior technical discussions over the forums but should arch-general become watered I don't see a real need to keep it running... Yes, I know there are some people that follows mailing lists and never put a step on the forums but hey, the forum aren't too ackward if you're subscribed to the different threads. Regards, Martin -- -msx
