Re: [Asterisk-Users] Free Software or not -- that's the question /* New subject */
Anyone who does not like the fact that all code must be disclaimed, sent through Digum to CVS and that GPL'd code can't go in can fix that problem. All you need to do is copy the current CVS and use that to start your own project. You can call it Asterisk Prime or Star and make up your own rules within the limits of the GPL. So there, if you want the rules changed _you_ can change them. But I'll bet you don't want the rules changed so badly that you would go to that much trouble. I and I assume most everyone here whould rather put up the way it is than duplicate Mark's efforts --- Steven Critchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 2004-01-10 at 18:47, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have always been suspicious of centralized control and dictatorship, benevolent or otherwise. After thinking for some time about the licensing structure of code for Asterisk, I am not sure that their motives are so innocuous and altrusitic, or at least this is not reflected so well in the fine print. After learning that all code must pass through Mark, I am even less sure. It means that Digium remains in a position of control and dominance over what is ostensibly communal property. I seem to remember at one point that all code in the official linux kernel had to go though Linus. Did we suffer? I don't think so. All code going through Mark isn't a bad thing. If you look through the cvs logs, you might see there are 3 or so commiters right now. I know jeremy is able to commit, but I think he is limited(probably self imposed) to theSNIP = Chris Albertson Home: 310-376-1029 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cell: 310-990-7550 Office: 310-336-5189 [EMAIL PROTECTED] KG6OMK __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
[Asterisk-Users] Free Software or not -- that's the question /* New subject */
(removed In-Reply-To header) On Sat, Jan 10, 2004 at 10:01:12AM +, WipeOut wrote: And make sure to send in a disclaimer otherwise it will not even be looked at.. :) How do we know what is disclaimed or not disclaimed? /O Digium have all the Disclaimers and will not develop or include any code into the CVS without one.. Thats all I was saying.. :) And the disclaimers waive all of your rights to the code, allow Digium to include it in their proprietary product, and then they may or may not release it in the Asterisk public CVS under the GPL. Consider: A: Software licensed under the GPL is Free Software B: One of the freedoms relevant to Free Software is the ability to make use of other Free Software in such a way as to reduce duplication of effort. C: Digium will not include Free Software in the Asterisk CVS. So Digium releases Free Software while maintaining strong centralized control of the project, to the point of making dubious design decisions. First of all, I applaud the recent decision to start making more formal releases of the software. This is a big step forward. Now, a case in point to illustrate C. Asterisk includes a Berkeley DB implementation in its source tree. It lives in the db1-ast subdirectory. Now every modern UNIX has a Berkeley DB implementation included. These days it is usually DB3 from Sleepycat. Not the Sleepycat license under which DB3 is released is basically the standard BSD license with a bit of GPLish language added in. Though Digium supports Free Software to the point of releasing code under the GPL, they are afraid enough of the idea of Free Software, that they included an ancient (obsolete, deprecated) implementation of a standard part of most operating systems, in order to avoid GPL-like terms. And why is this unnecessary cruft included in the source tree? So that Digium can leverage the Free Software community into developing proprietary software for them. Am I way off the mark? -w -- /~\ The ASCII Ribbon Campaign \ /No HTML/RTF in email X No Word docs in email / \ Respect for open standards ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Free Software or not -- that's the question /* New subject */
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And why is this unnecessary cruft included in the source tree? So that Digium can leverage the Free Software community into developing proprietary software for them. Am I way off the mark? I think you're unfairly impugning Digium's motives. And I also think you're--again--salting your post with enough innuendo that a reasonable person might suspect you of flame-baiting. I suscribe to the mailing lists of several OS VoIP solutions, as I'm sure do many others on this list. There is nothing out there like asterisk, in terms of it functionality, or the body of minds that have collected to work on it. I have recently found myself embarking on a mini-career doing fundamental-level VoIP training to network operators, technology freaks, and even some small-telco tech people. I take along a laptop with asterisk on it and do a little song-and-dance that shows off some of its gee-whiz features. It is not much of an exaggeration to say that almost always people's mouths drop open in amazement at what all that asterisk can do. It's comical sometimes how affected people are. So I have all this functionality, and I have all the source code to it, and I can legally keep it forever at this (mostly happy) level of functionality, and if Digium drops off the face of the earth, I can start with what's there (we can start with what's there; I know I won't be alone) and keep going should that happen. So I can look at the same set of facts that you do, but in my mind Digium is not the nefarious would-be crook that you imply in your postings, but rather a brilliant and disruptive force upon the telco world. And they are a *business,* and as many of the people reading this sentence are bound to know, one trick of the Open Source world is to figure out how to keep things open and free and at the same time how to keep bread on the table and enough cashflow to keep up with the technology (VoIP in this case) Joneses. I cannot guess your motives, but I'm pretty sure that I *do* know what Digium's motives are, and they are innocuous and altruistic instead of the way you portray them. Where are you trying to take this? B. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Free Software or not -- that's the question /* New subject */
I work for an interconnect that sells 3com and NEC. When I made this project my own and followed through to show my boss, he said, this is going to ruin our industry If that is the case then so be it. Same with mp3s and the music industry. Had they embraced the technology, everyone could be making a living. Now they have to sue as a last fight on the way out. Really, this is like a car that doesnt run on gas. - Original Message - From: Brian Capouch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 3:03 PM Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] Free Software or not -- that's the question /* New subject */ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And why is this unnecessary cruft included in the source tree? So that Digium can leverage the Free Software community into developing proprietary software for them. Am I way off the mark? I think you're unfairly impugning Digium's motives. And I also think you're--again--salting your post with enough innuendo that a reasonable person might suspect you of flame-baiting. I suscribe to the mailing lists of several OS VoIP solutions, as I'm sure do many others on this list. There is nothing out there like asterisk, in terms of it functionality, or the body of minds that have collected to work on it. I have recently found myself embarking on a mini-career doing fundamental-level VoIP training to network operators, technology freaks, and even some small-telco tech people. I take along a laptop with asterisk on it and do a little song-and-dance that shows off some of its gee-whiz features. It is not much of an exaggeration to say that almost always people's mouths drop open in amazement at what all that asterisk can do. It's comical sometimes how affected people are. So I have all this functionality, and I have all the source code to it, and I can legally keep it forever at this (mostly happy) level of functionality, and if Digium drops off the face of the earth, I can start with what's there (we can start with what's there; I know I won't be alone) and keep going should that happen. So I can look at the same set of facts that you do, but in my mind Digium is not the nefarious would-be crook that you imply in your postings, but rather a brilliant and disruptive force upon the telco world. And they are a *business,* and as many of the people reading this sentence are bound to know, one trick of the Open Source world is to figure out how to keep things open and free and at the same time how to keep bread on the table and enough cashflow to keep up with the technology (VoIP in this case) Joneses. I cannot guess your motives, but I'm pretty sure that I *do* know what Digium's motives are, and they are innocuous and altruistic instead of the way you portray them. Where are you trying to take this? B. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Free Software or not -- that's the question /* New subject */
w, You also have to consider that if Asterisk used any GPL code we would loose the ability to use/link to openh323, provide g729 of any sort. We would also Dialogic support. Now do you want to be the one to tell everyong that depends on h323, g729 or Dialogic cards they are just SOL? Asterisk is GPL and the way digium does their disclaimers doesn't make Asterisk any less of a GPL project. I require h323 and g729 support and use it daily. bkw On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (removed In-Reply-To header) On Sat, Jan 10, 2004 at 10:01:12AM +, WipeOut wrote: And make sure to send in a disclaimer otherwise it will not even be looked at.. :) How do we know what is disclaimed or not disclaimed? /O Digium have all the Disclaimers and will not develop or include any code into the CVS without one.. Thats all I was saying.. :) And the disclaimers waive all of your rights to the code, allow Digium to include it in their proprietary product, and then they may or may not release it in the Asterisk public CVS under the GPL. Consider: A: Software licensed under the GPL is Free Software B: One of the freedoms relevant to Free Software is the ability to make use of other Free Software in such a way as to reduce duplication of effort. C: Digium will not include Free Software in the Asterisk CVS. So Digium releases Free Software while maintaining strong centralized control of the project, to the point of making dubious design decisions. First of all, I applaud the recent decision to start making more formal releases of the software. This is a big step forward. Now, a case in point to illustrate C. Asterisk includes a Berkeley DB implementation in its source tree. It lives in the db1-ast subdirectory. Now every modern UNIX has a Berkeley DB implementation included. These days it is usually DB3 from Sleepycat. Not the Sleepycat license under which DB3 is released is basically the standard BSD license with a bit of GPLish language added in. Though Digium supports Free Software to the point of releasing code under the GPL, they are afraid enough of the idea of Free Software, that they included an ancient (obsolete, deprecated) implementation of a standard part of most operating systems, in order to avoid GPL-like terms. And why is this unnecessary cruft included in the source tree? So that Digium can leverage the Free Software community into developing proprietary software for them. Am I way off the mark? -w -- /~\ The ASCII Ribbon Campaign \ /No HTML/RTF in email X No Word docs in email / \ Respect for open standards ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Free Software or not -- that's the question /* New subject */
admin said: I work for an interconnect that sells 3com and NEC. When I made this project my own and followed through to show my boss, he said, this is going to ruin our industry If that is the case then so be it. Same with mp3s and the music industry. Had they embraced the technology, everyone could be making a living. Now they have to sue as a last fight on the way out. Really, this is like a car that doesnt run on gas. Seems like it isn't going to ruin your industry but will put a dent in 3Com and NEC !! In fact it could improve your company's business model since you sell services to setup and configure Asterisk. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Free Software or not -- that's the question /* New subject */
It's very hard to find a business model for working with Open Source Software in a for-profit software company. Mysql and Digium are success stories that work with a two-fold model that seems to work. Do not forget that there are companies out there that wants to buy the software with a more business-minded license than GPL and can't use the software with GPL license. As long as Digium continues to enhance and give away code, I see no problem with letting them use my code. And as Tilghman will point out if I don't do it, I can still have the copyright to my code, just let them use it in their business. It's a form of coop-operation ;-) If Digium seriously misbehave and start releasing lots of functionality on the side and not giving new releases to the community, well then we might have to consider where the community want to go. We're far away from that situation. I think it's time to calm down and move forward, use the time to make sure we can relase a stable 1.0 soon. To do that, we need help debugging and testing all the patches in bugs.digium.com. Bug marshals are working with the process, but we need many more people testing and reporting their findings, good or bad, in bugs.digium.com Thank you for helping us with this. /O ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Free Software or not -- that's the question /* New subject */
Brian West wrote: w, You also have to consider that if Asterisk used any GPL code we would loose the ability to use/link to openh323, provide g729 of any sort. We would also Dialogic support. Now do you want to be the one to tell everyong that depends on h323, g729 or Dialogic cards they are just SOL? And, with clever interfaces, we can still interface to GPL code even though we can't include it in the base CVS. The Mysql-addon is one example, the festival interface may be another and Brians solution with ODBC to connect to every other database, GPL or not, is another solution. Let's go back to work :-) /O ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Free Software or not -- that's the question /* New subject */
On Sat, Jan 10, 2004 at 03:03:23PM -0500, Brian Capouch wrote: I think you're unfairly impugning Digium's motives. And I also think you're--again--salting your post with enough innuendo that a reasonable person might suspect you of flame-baiting. Baiting, perhaps, but not flames. If there is some devil's advocate flavour, call it tactical hyperbole. Sometimes one has to take an extreme position to get things done -- remember that the previous thread resulted in a commitment to release more often, and branch CVS for stable and development versions, and the scheduling of a long overdue release for this Monday. I suscribe to the mailing lists of several OS VoIP solutions, as I'm sure do many others on this list. There is nothing out there like asterisk, in terms of it functionality, or the body of minds that have collected to work on it. I have recently found myself embarking on a mini-career doing fundamental-level VoIP training to network operators, technology freaks, and even some small-telco tech people. I take along a laptop with asterisk on it and do a little song-and-dance that shows off some of its gee-whiz features. I have found myself doing similar things... It is not much of an exaggeration to say that almost always people's mouths drop open in amazement at what all that asterisk can do. It's comical sometimes how affected people are. with similar experience... So I have all this functionality, and I have all the source code to it, and I can legally keep it forever at this (mostly happy) level of functionality, and if Digium drops off the face of the earth, I can start with what's there (we can start with what's there; I know I won't be alone) and keep going should that happen. True, and i credit mark with foresight in releasing at least some of the code as Free Software. So I can look at the same set of facts that you do, but in my mind Digium is not the nefarious would-be crook that you imply in your postings, but rather a brilliant and disruptive force upon the telco world. And they are a *business,* and as many of the people reading this sentence are bound to know, one trick of the Open Source world is to figure out how to keep things open and free and at the same time how to keep bread on the table and enough cashflow to keep up with the technology (VoIP in this case) Joneses. I myself am a veteran of the packet vs. circuit, data vs. voice wars of the mid-late 90s, having built networks for several merged ISP/Telco entities. And from time to time I have worried about how to keep bread on the table while at the same time producing only Free Software. I want to draw a distinction between Open Source software and Free Software. Open Source is an attempt to strike some middle ground between Intellectual Proprietorship and Intellectual Freedom. Digium has chosen the middle ground that offers them the advantage of asserting Intellectual Property Rights and granting others Freedom as they deem fit. And they have to go through all sorts of contortions in order to be able to do that -- to the point where it affects code quality. Decisions are made for what amount to political reasons rather than technical ones. This, I believe, is damaging, and indicates that the wrong balance has been struck. When I first encountered Asterisk about a year ago, my impression was that Digium was a hardware vendor that produced Free Software as a way to drive hardware purchases, and that they offered support as a way to augment their revenue stream. Then I learned that this was not the case, and they also produced proprietary versions of the software, and I was disappointed. If Digium had released Asterisk under a BSD-like license, this would not be much of an issue -- if anybody could have their own proprietary Asterisk, I would not begrudge Digium that ability. But since they are the only ones who can do that... I cannot guess your motives, but I'm pretty sure that I *do* know what Digium's motives are, and they are innocuous and altruistic instead of the way you portray them. My motives are to encourage and maximize the Free flow of ideas. I pursue this on several levels. I contribute code only to Free Software. I advocate the use and development of Free Software. I build networks over which ideas can be exchanged unhindered. (I sometimes use the terms idea and software interchangeably since the latter is an explicit manifestation of the former in machine readable form.) I have always been suspicious of centralized control and dictatorship, benevolent or otherwise. After thinking for some time about the licensing structure of code for Asterisk, I am not sure that their motives are so innocuous and altrusitic, or at least this is not reflected so well in the fine print. After learning that all code must pass through Mark, I am even less sure. It means that Digium remains in a position of control and dominance over what is ostensibly
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Free Software or not -- that's the question /* New subject */
I'm going to keep this short and to the point. Nobody is twisting your arm to use Asterisk... we didn't find you.. you found us. NEXT!!! bkw ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
