Re: [asterisk-users] [asterisk-dev] AstriDevCon 2014: Agenda item Deprecate AMI/AGI (Ben Klang)
Il giorno Oct 30, 2014, alle ore 4:57 PM, Paul Albrecht palbre...@glccom.com ha scritto: On Oct 29, 2014, at 2:45 PM, Ben Klang bkl...@mojolingo.com mailto:bkl...@mojolingo.com wrote: On 10/28/2014 06:03 PM, Ben Langfeld wrote: On 28 October 2014 19:47, Derek Andrew derek.and...@usask.ca mailto:derek.and...@usask.ca wrote: What is the alternative to the dial plan? Is everyone talking about getting rid of the statements like: exten = s,1, what is the alternative? Remote applications based on APIs like ARI. This is the start of the discussion, and please remember that nothing has been decided or even presented as a robust plan yet. This is brain-storming. Additionally, note that the original proposal was to deprecate AMI/AGI in favour of ARI once it is feature complete with those protocols; an entirely lesser change than the removal of the dialplan in its entirety. Since this thread has my name on it, I guess it’s past time that I explain my motivation for making the suggestion, and try to restore some of the context that was present in the discussion at AstriDevCon. Before I jump into the details of my proposal, I’d like to clarify terms... It’s intellectually dishonest to redefine the terms of an argument to presuppose your own conclusion. If you don’t intend to use the term “deprecate” as it is commonly understood by software developers and users than you should avoid the use of the term “deprecate” so that others clearly understand your argument. If you really mean “deprecate” as commonly understood by software developers and users then you should be prepared to defend that proposition. I had thought that the term “deprecate” was already understood to be the definition I gave, but earlier posts on the mailing list seemed to indicate confusion. My definition mirrors the Wikipedia definition: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deprecation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deprecation. Perhaps I just should have linked to that originally, as their explanation is even better than my own. In any event, what we are talking about is the deprecation as I defined it. If you prefer another word for it, I’m fine with that too. I just want to be clear that my proposal is to discourage use of AMI/AGI in new projects, but not to immediately remove it. Now, on to what I originally proposed... It’s clear from the title of the agenda item what was proposed. You proposed deprecating AMI/AGI and that entails deprecating the dial plan. The fact that deprecating the dial plan is now on the table is a direct consequence of your proposal. This is reflected in both comments made at AstiCon and Matt’s summary of Astricon on the development list. You can’t have it both ways. You want to deprecate dial plan or not. Which is it? Actually, AMI/AGI and Dialplan are separate. You can disable AMI and you can unload res_agi.so. Dialplan/extensions.conf continue to work just fine. Certainly AMI/AGI make use of Dialplan, but deprecating AMI/AGI doesn’t mean you have to deprecate Dialplan. It is my opinion that while AGI and AMI are probably individually fixable, doing so would cause backward-incompatible changes… Deprecating the dial plan and AGI/AMI is incompatible going forward. What is supposed to happen? Are users supposed to throw away there applications whenever ARI/Stasis is feature complete? Is ARI/Stasis really any easier to use than the dial plan? Are we all supposed to use Adhearsion? You’re certainly welcome to use Adhearsion :) For what it’s worth, Adhearsion will continue to support AMI/AGI because we have to until ARI is feature-complete. For Adhearsion users, the transition to ARI should be seamless because that’s one of the things that the framework promises: to paper over the idiosyncrasies of the underlying protocols. If you don’t want to use Adhearsion, I’d recommend you look at ARI for developing new projects. There are libraries in many languages that make it easy to use. It’s got a great start and will only improve as people continue to use it and develop additional features. Today, it is not yet a replacement for AMI/AGI, but I’m very optimistic that it will be in the near future. I suspect that I’m not convincing to you, and that you want to continue using AMI/AGI. That’s fine, I’m not telling you to throw out any code. I think Asterisk’s historical policy toward backward compatibility and removing features speaks for itself. Rather than continue to debate the semantics of my proposal, I’d like to continue the discussion on how we can improve ARI and improve the state of the world for all Asterisk developers in the years to come. /BAK/ -- Ben Klang Principal/Technology Strategist, Mojo Lingo bkl...@mojolingo.com mailto:bkl...@mojolingo.com +1.404.475.4841 Mojo Lingo -- Voice applications that work like magic http://mojolingo.com http://mojolingo.com/ Twitter: @MojoLingo
Re: [asterisk-users] [asterisk-dev] AstriDevCon 2014:Agenda item Deprecate AMI/AGI (Ben Klang)
On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 2:04 PM, Paul Albrecht palbre...@glccom.com wrote: The reason the dial plan can never be deprecated is because Asterisk wouldn’t be Asterisk without the dial plan. Sure, you could re-engineer Asterisk so that it would be “better for a small select group of users at the expense of the majority of community that use the product as designed for the purpose it was originally intended. However, you’re either very naive or delusional if you think the community is going to follow you down that path. Do you really believe the community is going simply chuck their dial plans and walk away from their investment in Asterisk? Not likely, dude. My comment/question wasn't really about dial plans, per se. My question was about you insisting that Digium make such unqualified promises about the future of Asterisk. Even though Digium is a private company, I believe that they are still bound by U.S. laws regarding forward-looking statements[1]. So even if they wanted to (which I doubt), there's no way you're going to get the promise that you're looking for. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward-looking_statement -- Jeff Ollie -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- New to Asterisk? Join us for a live introductory webinar every Thurs: http://www.asterisk.org/hello asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] [asterisk-dev] AstriDevCon 2014:Agenda item Deprecate AMI/AGI(Ben Klang)
On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 10:09 AM, Paul Albrecht palbre...@glccom.com wrote: When Matt says deprecating the dial plan would be difficult and would take a long time it seems to me he’s being evasive and misleading. He doesn’t say it’s never going to happen and he doesn’t share whatever he thinks the Asterisk vision actually is which he should presumably be aware of since he is the Asterisk engineering manager. Why do you keep insisting that Digium promise to *never* deprecate dial plans? I don't think that's a promise that's really worth anything as there may be really good reasons in the future to do so. I think that you've gotten the best that you will get: they've said that there are no plans within Digium to deprecate the dial plan, and if there were plans, they'd give people a long time prepare before it actually happens. It's probably a good time to refresh your understanding of Digium's support policies: https://wiki.asterisk.org/wiki/display/AST/Asterisk+Versions Version 13 will be around until at least 2018, so you'll have *at least* that long to prepare for the switch, since version 13 is feature frozen so there's no way the dial plan would be removed from 13. And all of this talk of deprecating the dial plan isn't even coming from Digium. It's something that was suggested by a community member at the developer conference. I wasn't there so I don't know how seriously it was taken there, but it would have been impolite of everyone involved to just ignore it. -- Jeff Ollie -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- New to Asterisk? Join us for a live introductory webinar every Thurs: http://www.asterisk.org/hello asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] [asterisk-dev] AstriDevCon 2014: Agenda item Deprecate AMI/AGI(Ben Klang)
On Oct 22, 2014, at 10:33 AM, Joshua Colp jc...@digium.com wrote: Paul Albrecht wrote: Really? Shouldn’t something this major affecting the entire Asterisk community get discussed on the lists? Any idea what Leif is talking about when he says the community is in transition, moving from dial plan model to external control. It was something Ben Klang brought up and wanted to talk about - it's not something that has been decided 'nor does anyone know what the future entails. Any further discussions will naturally occur on the mailing list and in fact some things have explicit action items to bring them up on here. The suggestion that Asterisk should consider deprecating AMI/AGI is “crazy talk.” It doesn’t merit discussion and shouldn’t be on the agenda in the first place. It’s completely impractical and can never happen. Moreover, Leif seems to think we (the asterisk community) are in transition. What does that mean? Are we abandoning the dial plan? Seriously? That’s never gonna happen either. ARI isn’t easier to use than dial plan scripting. I guess one could hope that what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas”, but I don’t think the Asterisk community has that kind of luck. Cheers, -- Joshua Colp Digium, Inc. | Senior Software Developer 445 Jan Davis Drive NW - Huntsville, AL 35806 - US Check us out at: www.digium.com www.asterisk.org -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-dev mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- New to Asterisk? Join us for a live introductory webinar every Thurs: http://www.asterisk.org/hello asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] [asterisk-dev] AstriDevCon 2014: Agenda item Deprecate AMI/AGI(Ben Klang)
On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 11:14 AM, Paul Albrecht palbre...@glccom.com wrote: On Oct 22, 2014, at 10:33 AM, Joshua Colp jc...@digium.com wrote: Paul Albrecht wrote: Really? Shouldn’t something this major affecting the entire Asterisk community get discussed on the lists? Any idea what Leif is talking about when he says the community is in transition, moving from dial plan model to external control. It was something Ben Klang brought up and wanted to talk about - it's not something that has been decided 'nor does anyone know what the future entails. Any further discussions will naturally occur on the mailing list and in fact some things have explicit action items to bring them up on here. The suggestion that Asterisk should consider deprecating AMI/AGI is “crazy talk.” It doesn’t merit discussion and shouldn’t be on the agenda in the first place. It’s completely impractical and can never happen. Moreover, Leif seems to think we (the asterisk community) are in transition. What does that mean? Are we abandoning the dial plan? Seriously? That’s never gonna happen either. ARI isn’t easier to use than dial plan scripting. I guess one could hope that what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas”, but I don’t think the Asterisk community has that kind of luck. Just because someone decided to bring up a radical idea does not mean we refuse to discuss it. This is an open source project. Communication is done in an open, transparent manner. People should feel like they can bring up interesting, radical, and yes - even crazy - ideas. If you don't like that, you don't have to participate in the discussion. -- Matthew Jordan Digium, Inc. | Engineering Manager 445 Jan Davis Drive NW - Huntsville, AL 35806 - USA Check us out at: http://digium.com http://asterisk.org -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- New to Asterisk? Join us for a live introductory webinar every Thurs: http://www.asterisk.org/hello asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
