Re: [asterisk-users] AstriDevCon 2014: Agenda item Deprecate AMI/AGI (Ben Klang)
On Oct 29, 2014, at 2:45 PM, Ben Klang bkl...@mojolingo.com wrote: On 10/28/2014 06:03 PM, Ben Langfeld wrote: On 28 October 2014 19:47, Derek Andrew derek.and...@usask.ca wrote: What is the alternative to the dial plan? Is everyone talking about getting rid of the statements like: exten = s,1, what is the alternative? Remote applications based on APIs like ARI. This is the start of the discussion, and please remember that nothing has been decided or even presented as a robust plan yet. This is brain-storming. Additionally, note that the original proposal was to deprecate AMI/AGI in favour of ARI once it is feature complete with those protocols; an entirely lesser change than the removal of the dialplan in its entirety. Since this thread has my name on it, I guess it’s past time that I explain my motivation for making the suggestion, and try to restore some of the context that was present in the discussion at AstriDevCon. Before I jump into the details of my proposal, I’d like to clarify terms... It’s intellectually dishonest to redefine the terms of an argument to presuppose your own conclusion. If you don’t intend to use the term “deprecate” as it is commonly understood by software developers and users than you should avoid the use of the term “deprecate” so that others clearly understand your argument. If you really mean “deprecate” as commonly understood by software developers and users then you should be prepared to defend that proposition. Now, on to what I originally proposed... It’s clear from the title of the agenda item what was proposed. You proposed deprecating AMI/AGI and that entails deprecating the dial plan. The fact that deprecating the dial plan is now on the table is a direct consequence of your proposal. This is reflected in both comments made at AstiCon and Matt’s summary of Astricon on the development list. You can’t have it both ways. You want to deprecate dial plan or not. Which is it? It is my opinion that while AGI and AMI are probably individually fixable, doing so would cause backward-incompatible changes… Deprecating the dial plan and AGI/AMI is incompatible going forward. What is supposed to happen? Are users supposed to throw away there applications whenever ARI/Stasis is feature complete? Is ARI/Stasis really any easier to use than the dial plan? Are we all supposed to use Adhearsion? -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- New to Asterisk? Join us for a live introductory webinar every Thurs: http://www.asterisk.org/hello asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] AstriDevCon 2014: Agenda item Deprecate AMI/AGI(Ben Klang)
On Oct 29, 2014, at 4:26 PM, Matthew Jordan mjor...@digium.com wrote: On Wed, Oct 29, 2014 at 2:31 PM, Paul Albrecht palbre...@glccom.com wrote: On Oct 28, 2014, at 5:03 PM, Ben Langfeld b...@langfeld.me wrote: On 28 October 2014 19:47, Derek Andrew derek.and...@usask.ca wrote: What is the alternative to the dial plan? Is everyone talking about getting rid of the statements like: exten = s,1, what is the alternative? Remote applications based on APIs like ARI. This is the start of the discussion, and please remember that nothing has been decided or even presented as a robust plan yet. This is brain-storming. We’re not at the start of the “discussion” to deprecate the dial plan. The start of the “discussion” began when some developers decided to try standing Asterisk on its head by adding “asynchronous AGI.” Evidently, that was good so then they continued the “discussion” by adding ARI/Stasis. Now the “discussion” is in full career as ARI/Stasis has metastasized beyond its original scope to encompass all of Asterisk. None of said “discussion” ever happened on the lists nor was the broader Asterisk community involved as far as I can determine. A parallel “discussion” was started by a shill at AstiCon this year to begin to get the “vast unwashed” onboard with ARI/Stasis, that is, so that Matt could come back from AstiCon claiming that the broader Asterisk community is in agreement that ARI/Stasis is the future of Asterisk and that the dial plan can be deprecated. The inevitable result of these parallel paths is a completely predictable train wreck when the developers designing features that users don’t want crash into users who have been using Asterisk as originally designed. Additionally, note that the original proposal was to deprecate AMI/AGI in favour of ARI once it is feature complete with those protocols; an entirely lesser change than the removal of the dialplan in its entirety. So you're saying that deprecating the dial plan is not on the table? How then do you explain statements like this: Leif: we're in a transition, moving from dialplan model to external control model. Probably need external application to be built for us to move completely away from AMI/AGI.” or this Paul: take away apps, and whatever is in the core is what we should care about.” Paul: This is a notice that you are in violation of the Asterisk community code of conduct: https://wiki.asterisk.org/wiki/display/AST/Asterisk+Community+Code+of+Conduct You have repeatedly insulted members of the Asterisk community using derogatory language that is inappropriate for this mailing list. This creates a hostile atmosphere that makes it difficult for productive communication to occur, which is the lifeblood of this open source project. Members of an open source community should not feel like they are under attack merely for expressing an opinion. While we value the opinions you bring to the discussion, your tone and choice of language is completely inappropriate and will not be tolerated. If you continue to use inflammatory language and rhetoric, you will be banned from participation in the Asterisk project. Matt -- Matthew Jordan Digium, Inc. | Engineering Manager 445 Jan Davis Drive NW - Huntsville, AL 35806 - USA Check us out at: http://digium.com http://asterisk.org -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- New to Asterisk? Join us for a live introductory webinar every Thurs: http://www.asterisk.org/hello asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] AstriDevCon 2014: Agenda item Deprecate AMI/AGI (Ben Klang)
On Oct 28, 2014, at 5:03 PM, Ben Langfeld b...@langfeld.me wrote: On 28 October 2014 19:47, Derek Andrew derek.and...@usask.ca wrote: What is the alternative to the dial plan? Is everyone talking about getting rid of the statements like: exten = s,1, what is the alternative? Remote applications based on APIs like ARI. This is the start of the discussion, and please remember that nothing has been decided or even presented as a robust plan yet. This is brain-storming. We’re not at the start of the “discussion” to deprecate the dial plan. The start of the “discussion” began when some developers decided to try standing Asterisk on its head by adding “asynchronous AGI.” Evidently, that was good so then they continued the “discussion” by adding ARI/Stasis. Now the “discussion” is in full career as ARI/Stasis has metastasized beyond its original scope to encompass all of Asterisk. None of said “discussion” ever happened on the lists nor was the broader Asterisk community involved as far as I can determine. A parallel “discussion” was started by a shill at AstiCon this year to begin to get the “vast unwashed” onboard with ARI/Stasis, that is, so that Matt could come back from AstiCon claiming that the broader Asterisk community is in agreement that ARI/Stasis is the future of Asterisk and that the dial plan can be deprecated. The inevitable result of these parallel paths is a completely predictable train wreck when the developers designing features that users don’t want crash into users who have been using Asterisk as originally designed. Additionally, note that the original proposal was to deprecate AMI/AGI in favour of ARI once it is feature complete with those protocols; an entirely lesser change than the removal of the dialplan in its entirety. So you're saying that deprecating the dial plan is not on the table? How then do you explain statements like this: Leif: we're in a transition, moving from dialplan model to external control model. Probably need external application to be built for us to move completely away from AMI/AGI.” or this Paul: take away apps, and whatever is in the core is what we should care about.” -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-dev mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-dev mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- New to Asterisk? Join us for a live introductory webinar every Thurs: http://www.asterisk.org/hello asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] AstriDevCon 2014: Agenda item Deprecate AMI/AGI (Ben Klang)
Not asking for unqualified promises about the future of Asterisk. Simply asking for an acknowledgment of the obvious, that is, Asterisk without the dial plan wouldn’t be Asterisk. The fact that one is not forthcoming raises a red flag with respect to the future of Asterisk. Furthermore, adding “asynchronous AGI” and ARI/Stasis to Asterisk is similarly a cause for concern since it’s a complete break with the original Asterisk design. Since Asterisk is an open source community supported project, one would expect the consultants/developers pushing these changes would be willing to share their vision with the rest of the Asterisk community. On Oct 27, 2014, at 2:32 PM, Jeffrey Ollie j...@ocjtech.us wrote: On Mon, Oct 27, 2014 at 2:04 PM, Paul Albrecht palbre...@glccom.com wrote: The reason the dial plan can never be deprecated is because Asterisk wouldn’t be Asterisk without the dial plan. Sure, you could re-engineer Asterisk so that it would be “better for a small select group of users at the expense of the majority of community that use the product as designed for the purpose it was originally intended. However, you’re either very naive or delusional if you think the community is going to follow you down that path. Do you really believe the community is going simply chuck their dial plans and walk away from their investment in Asterisk? Not likely, dude. My comment/question wasn't really about dial plans, per se. My question was about you insisting that Digium make such unqualified promises about the future of Asterisk. Even though Digium is a private company, I believe that they are still bound by U.S. laws regarding forward-looking statements[1]. So even if they wanted to (which I doubt), there's no way you're going to get the promise that you're looking for. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forward-looking_statement -- Jeff Ollie -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- New to Asterisk? Join us for a live introductory webinar every Thurs: http://www.asterisk.org/hello asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- New to Asterisk? Join us for a live introductory webinar every Thurs: http://www.asterisk.org/hello asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] AstriDevCon 2014:Agenda item Deprecate AMI/AGI (Ben Klang)
The reason the dial plan can never be deprecated is because Asterisk wouldn’t be Asterisk without the dial plan. Sure, you could re-engineer Asterisk so that it would be “better for a small select group of users at the expense of the majority of community that use the product as designed for the purpose it was originally intended. However, you’re either very naive or delusional if you think the community is going to follow you down that path. Do you really believe the community is going simply chuck their dial plans and walk away from their investment in Asterisk? Not likely, dude. On Oct 24, 2014, at 11:48 AM, Jeffrey Ollie j...@ocjtech.us wrote: On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 10:09 AM, Paul Albrecht palbre...@glccom.com wrote: When Matt says deprecating the dial plan would be difficult and would take a long time it seems to me he’s being evasive and misleading. He doesn’t say it’s never going to happen and he doesn’t share whatever he thinks the Asterisk vision actually is which he should presumably be aware of since he is the Asterisk engineering manager. Why do you keep insisting that Digium promise to *never* deprecate dial plans? I don't think that's a promise that's really worth anything as there may be really good reasons in the future to do so. I think that you've gotten the best that you will get: they've said that there are no plans within Digium to deprecate the dial plan, and if there were plans, they'd give people a long time prepare before it actually happens. It's probably a good time to refresh your understanding of Digium's support policies: https://wiki.asterisk.org/wiki/display/AST/Asterisk+Versions Version 13 will be around until at least 2018, so you'll have *at least* that long to prepare for the switch, since version 13 is feature frozen so there's no way the dial plan would be removed from 13. And all of this talk of deprecating the dial plan isn't even coming from Digium. It's something that was suggested by a community member at the developer conference. I wasn't there so I don't know how seriously it was taken there, but it would have been impolite of everyone involved to just ignore it. -- Jeff Ollie -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- New to Asterisk? Join us for a live introductory webinar every Thurs: http://www.asterisk.org/hello asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- New to Asterisk? Join us for a live introductory webinar every Thurs: http://www.asterisk.org/hello asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] AstriDevCon 2014:Agenda item Deprecate AMI/AGI(Ben Klang)
On Oct 23, 2014, at 1:58 PM, Kevin Larsen kevin.lar...@pioneerballoon.com wrote: From: Paul Albrecht palbre...@glccom.com Seems like now is as good a time as any to raise these issues, in fact, sooner is better than later because once developers start down a path it’s very difficult to get them change their minds no matter how much sense it makes. The fact that developers are even considering taking away user functionality like the dial plan is in of itself a very serious problem because it demonstrates they don’t see Asterisk from the user perspective. Don’t object to extending the Asterisk user interface or changing Asterisk internals. Do object to is taking away functionality that users expect, are familiar with, and has made the Asterisk project successful. Then your experience is atypical. Asterisk has been unstable for several years as developers have continually shoveled new features into the code base over several releases. That’s not necessary objectionable, it’s even to be expected; however, at some point developers need to turn their attention to less glamorous less exciting things like stability and performance. I don't think anyone is objecting to you bringing this up, as it has been mentioned at the dev con. Perhaps it is just that the tone doesn't come across properly in an email, but you are coming across as confrontational and alarmist and it seems to be setting people on edge. Matt has already chimed in that he doesn't see how it would be possible to deprecate the dial plan at this time and even if it were possible, the process would take on the order of years, giving you plenty of time to enact any contingency plans you might need. Scott G. from Digium even posited that if it were to be removed from the core, it would likely end up as a loadable module so that it wouldn't burden those who don't need it and could be loaded for those who do. When Matt says deprecating the dial plan would be difficult and would take a long time it seems to me he’s being evasive and misleading. He doesn’t say it’s never going to happen and he doesn’t share whatever he thinks the Asterisk vision actually is which he should presumably be aware of since he is the Asterisk engineering manager. As for Scott’s suggestion, I don’t see how you can have it both ways: on the one hand ARI can’t work in an environment supporting AGI/AMI and the dial plan, and on the other you can support AGI/AMI in an optional module. It’s just not believable. If you’re not convinced, run menuconfig and look through the applications and functions sections. All of this stuff would have to change and you think that at the end of that process the dial plan would survive? I don’t think so. These developers do not exist in a vacuum, nor do they have total control over where Asterisk goes. Influence, sure, but there is still a corporate structure out there that finds it necessary to be customer oriented. They would have to be monumentally stupid (something which I haven't seen previous evidence of) to kill off the dial plan without providing a path forward for those who depend on it. Furthermore, even if they did pull a stunt so bad as to alienate half their users, the open source code would be forked so fast as to make your head spin or people would migrate to other similar packages (Freeswitch comes to mind). Digium sells their own PBX hardware that I am sure depends on these technologies that you are afraid will go away. They have direct skin in this game too. Totally get why Ben Klang thinks everyone should use adhearsion and that all the resources of the Asterisk community should be devoted to his project. But of course everyone thinks their project is the most important project in the world. What I don’t get is why one project or framework is deemed to be so important that is trumps everyone else in the Asterisk community. I would be interested to know just how atypical my experience is. I have found that on my 1.6 systems I would have random crashes over time. After upgrading over multiple sites, my 11.x systems have been rock solid for the most part. I did have a case where I did a store and forward of a fax that if I tried to forward the fax and it had no file to forward would cause a crash, but other than that, I haven't seen any problems in normal day to day usage. I always thought that the general consensus was that the 11.x series was quite a bit more stable than the older versions. Wouldn’t use the 1.6 release as a basis of comparison as that release was regarded as DOA by most folks. A better example would be Asterisk 1.4. We use it because it’s stable, we don’t need any of the new features and definitely want to avoid the performance degradation in the later releases. Having said that, Asterisk 1.6 was an interesting release because that’s when “async agi” was introduced and
Re: [asterisk-users] AstriDevCon 2014:Agenda item Deprecate AMI/AGI(Ben Klang)
On Oct 22, 2014, at 3:27 PM, Kevin Larsen kevin.lar...@pioneerballoon.com wrote: From: Paul Albrecht palbre...@glccom.com Here’s a link to the minutes: https://wiki.asterisk.org/wiki/ display/AST/AstriDevCon+2014 It has you saying: Leif: we're in a transition, moving from dialplan model to external control model. Probably need external application to be built for us to move completely away from AMI/AGI. So you’re saying Asterisk is moving away from the dial plan or were you misquoted? Paul, I think you are getting worked up way too early in this process. This is one comment with only a little bit of context surrounding it. Such a major change would take quite awhile to make and there would be plenty of warning before it happens, with plenty of opportunities to discuss. The dial plan isn't going away tomorrow and if it does ever go away, there will be plenty of time to work out a transition plan. Seems like now is as good a time as any to raise these issues, in fact, sooner is better than later because once developers start down a path it’s very difficult to get them change their minds no matter how much sense it makes. The fact that developers are even considering taking away user functionality like the dial plan is in of itself a very serious problem because it demonstrates they don’t see Asterisk from the user perspective. Looking at the path development has taken, it seems pretty clear that they have been working towards enabling greater external control of what Asterisk does, making it the engine that can drive other media applications. Doesn't mean it can't and won't be used as a traditional pbx, but to grow what it does will require some changes. If being a mature part of Asterisk means that something shouldn't be changed, we should also protest the move from the current SIP stack to pjsip. There are any number of reasons to deprecate mature code. It may not be needed or something better may come along. Don’t object to extending the Asterisk user interface or changing Asterisk internals. Do object to is taking away functionality that users expect, are familiar with, and has made the Asterisk project successful. All I can say is that having experience with a few versions of Asterisk, it seems to get better and more stable as new versions come along. Perhaps a bit of faith that they are not trying to kill off their product simply by having a discussion at a dev conference is in order. Then your experience is atypical. Asterisk has been unstable for several years as developers have continually shoveled new features into the code base over several releases. That’s not necessary objectionable, it’s even to be expected; however, at some point developers need to turn their attention to less glamorous less exciting things like stability and performance. Kevin Larsen -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- New to Asterisk? Join us for a live introductory webinar every Thurs: http://www.asterisk.org/hello asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- New to Asterisk? Join us for a live introductory webinar every Thurs: http://www.asterisk.org/hello asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] AstriDevCon 2014: Agenda item Deprecate AMI/AGI(Ben Klang)
On Oct 22, 2014, at 3:39 PM, Matthew Jordan mjor...@digium.com wrote: On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 1:55 PM, Paul Albrecht palbre...@glccom.com wrote: On Oct 22, 2014, at 11:31 AM, Matthew Jordan mjor...@digium.com wrote: On Wed, Oct 22, 2014 at 11:14 AM, Paul Albrecht palbre...@glccom.com wrote: On Oct 22, 2014, at 10:33 AM, Joshua Colp jc...@digium.com wrote: Paul Albrecht wrote: Really? Shouldn’t something this major affecting the entire Asterisk community get discussed on the lists? Any idea what Leif is talking about when he says the community is in transition, moving from dial plan model to external control. It was something Ben Klang brought up and wanted to talk about - it's not something that has been decided 'nor does anyone know what the future entails. Any further discussions will naturally occur on the mailing list and in fact some things have explicit action items to bring them up on here. The suggestion that Asterisk should consider deprecating AMI/AGI is “crazy talk.” It doesn’t merit discussion and shouldn’t be on the agenda in the first place. It’s completely impractical and can never happen. Moreover, Leif seems to think we (the asterisk community) are in transition. What does that mean? Are we abandoning the dial plan? Seriously? That’s never gonna happen either. ARI isn’t easier to use than dial plan scripting. I guess one could hope that what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas”, but I don’t think the Asterisk community has that kind of luck. Just because someone decided to bring up a radical idea does not mean we refuse to discuss it. So you agree that deprecating AMI/AGI is “crazy talk” but you’ll discuss it because of your open-mindedness? I didn't say that the idea of deprecating AMI/AGI is crazy talk. I did say that radical ideas - and even ones that some folks think are crazy - are all fine to discuss at AstriDevCon. The whole point of AstriDevCon is to have a large, free, and open conversation about Asterisk Development. I fundamentally disagree with the notion that that should be discouraged. The problem with AstriConDev is there is no user input so what you have is a developer echo chamber and what you get is groupthink. This is an open source project. Communication is done in an open, transparent manner. People should feel like they can bring up interesting, radical, and yes - even crazy - ideas. By the same token, when you propose ideas, you must be prepared for honest criticism and accept it in graciously rather than simply resorting to argument ad hominem. You didn't have honest criticism. You labelled a discussion point as crazy talk and said we shouldn't have even discussed it. There was no ad hominem attack. I never attacked you. I never even attacked your statements. I simply defended the free exchange of ideas in AstriDevCon. I have no problem doing that. On the other hand, you did callously label an Asterisk Developer's admittedly ambitious idea as crazy talk. In the future, you may want to choose your language more carefully if you wish for others to have a more open discussion with you. If you don't like that, you don't have to participate in the discussion. You haven’t really responded to the substance of my post, that is, is asterisk abandoning the dial plan? There are Asterisk users (who also happen to develop) who would like to minimize the dialplan necessary in their systems, to the point where they may no longer even need the dialplan. This is a fundamentally sound idea for some systems, particularly those that require scaling Asterisk out to many machines. There are also some Asterisk users who build complex applications on top of Asterisk, and who find having to use multiple interfaces cumbersome. They like ARI, and would like to see it able to do more than what it currently does today. Don’t have a problem with extending the Asterisk user interface or changing Asterisk internals that are not visible to users. Do object to taking away taking away user functionality like the dial plan that users expect, are familiar with, and has made the Asterisk project successful. Fully deprecating a feature in Asterisk is non-trivial. You must have: (1) A logical and full replacement for the feature (2) Buy-off from the developer community (3) Several major versions of the project in which the deprecated feature must remain Even in the case of point #3, deprecated features have often lasted in *many* versions of Asterisk. We are enormously conservative in what we choose to remove from the project. Not interested in what rules or process steps need to be followed to deprecate features. The fact of the matter is you’re not starting with a blank sheet of paper and you can’t simply abandon the existing user interface because what will really happen is your users will abandon you and your project.
Re: [asterisk-users] AstriDevCon 2014: Agenda item Deprecate AMI/AGI(Ben Klang)
On Oct 23, 2014, at 1:55 AM, Olle E Johansson o...@edvina.net wrote: It is critical that a group of developers ask themself questions along these lines - what if??? - What if we removed AGi and AMI? - What if we made a pluggable PBX? - What if we restarted working on a SIP channel? - What if we made a whole new bridge architecture? - What if we skip the idea of making a PBX? Good development quite frequently starts with these kind of ideas and questions that may see crazy but results in really good changes. Brainstorms needs to be open and not restricted, that is what the astridevcons are for. We need to go wild and see what comes out of it. A lot of the great changes we see in Asterisk 13 comes from many years of wild discussions. Pinemango anyone? The unacknowledged problem we’re dealing with is the fact that we’re not starting with a blank sheet of paper, but rather a mature user interface that users expect, are familiar with, and has made project successful. Extending the the user interface is one thing, throwing it away is another entirely different thing. But hey, you have the user's community attention at Astricon, why not have the courage of your convictions and announce to the the unwashed masses you’re planning to do away with the dial plan? /O -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- asterisk-dev mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-dev -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- New to Asterisk? Join us for a live introductory webinar every Thurs: http://www.asterisk.org/hello asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] AstriDevCon 2014:Agenda item Deprecate AMI/AGI(Ben Klang)
From: Paul Albrecht palbre...@glccom.com Seems like now is as good a time as any to raise these issues, in fact, sooner is better than later because once developers start down a path it’s very difficult to get them change their minds no matter how much sense it makes. The fact that developers are even considering taking away user functionality like the dial plan is in of itself a very serious problem because it demonstrates they don’t see Asterisk from the user perspective. Don’t object to extending the Asterisk user interface or changing Asterisk internals. Do object to is taking away functionality that users expect, are familiar with, and has made the Asterisk project successful. Then your experience is atypical. Asterisk has been unstable for several years as developers have continually shoveled new features into the code base over several releases. That’s not necessary objectionable, it’s even to be expected; however, at some point developers need to turn their attention to less glamorous less exciting things like stability and performance. I don't think anyone is objecting to you bringing this up, as it has been mentioned at the dev con. Perhaps it is just that the tone doesn't come across properly in an email, but you are coming across as confrontational and alarmist and it seems to be setting people on edge. Matt has already chimed in that he doesn't see how it would be possible to deprecate the dial plan at this time and even if it were possible, the process would take on the order of years, giving you plenty of time to enact any contingency plans you might need. Scott G. from Digium even posited that if it were to be removed from the core, it would likely end up as a loadable module so that it wouldn't burden those who don't need it and could be loaded for those who do. These developers do not exist in a vacuum, nor do they have total control over where Asterisk goes. Influence, sure, but there is still a corporate structure out there that finds it necessary to be customer oriented. They would have to be monumentally stupid (something which I haven't seen previous evidence of) to kill off the dial plan without providing a path forward for those who depend on it. Furthermore, even if they did pull a stunt so bad as to alienate half their users, the open source code would be forked so fast as to make your head spin or people would migrate to other similar packages (Freeswitch comes to mind). Digium sells their own PBX hardware that I am sure depends on these technologies that you are afraid will go away. They have direct skin in this game too. I would be interested to know just how atypical my experience is. I have found that on my 1.6 systems I would have random crashes over time. After upgrading over multiple sites, my 11.x systems have been rock solid for the most part. I did have a case where I did a store and forward of a fax that if I tried to forward the fax and it had no file to forward would cause a crash, but other than that, I haven't seen any problems in normal day to day usage. I always thought that the general consensus was that the 11.x series was quite a bit more stable than the older versions. Kevin Larsen -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- New to Asterisk? Join us for a live introductory webinar every Thurs: http://www.asterisk.org/hello asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] AstriDevCon 2014: Agenda item Deprecate AMI/AGI(Ben Klang)
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 10:45 AM, Paul Albrecht palbre...@glccom.com wrote: On Oct 23, 2014, at 1:55 AM, Olle E Johansson o...@edvina.net wrote: It is critical that a group of developers ask themself questions along these lines - what if??? - What if we removed AGi and AMI? - What if we made a pluggable PBX? - What if we restarted working on a SIP channel? - What if we made a whole new bridge architecture? - What if we skip the idea of making a PBX? Good development quite frequently starts with these kind of ideas and questions that may see crazy but results in really good changes. Brainstorms needs to be open and not restricted, that is what the astridevcons are for. We need to go wild and see what comes out of it. A lot of the great changes we see in Asterisk 13 comes from many years of wild discussions. Pinemango anyone? The unacknowledged problem we’re dealing with is the fact that we’re not starting with a blank sheet of paper, but rather a mature user interface that users expect, are familiar with, and has made project successful. Extending the the user interface is one thing, throwing it away is another entirely different thing. But hey, you have the user's community attention at Astricon, why not have the courage of your convictions and announce to the the unwashed masses you’re planning to do away with the dial plan? This will be the last time I respond to any of your e-mails on the Asterisk mailing lists or engage with you in any fashion. Your tone, language, and rhetoric are all indicative of someone who is not interested in having a discussion or being a productive member of this open source community. Good luck with your endeavors. Matt -- Matthew Jordan Digium, Inc. | Engineering Manager 445 Jan Davis Drive NW - Huntsville, AL 35806 - USA Check us out at: http://digium.com http://asterisk.org -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- New to Asterisk? Join us for a live introductory webinar every Thurs: http://www.asterisk.org/hello asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
[asterisk-users] AstriDevCon 2014: Agenda item Deprecate AMI/AGI (Ben Klang)
Really? Shouldn’t something this major affecting the entire Asterisk community get discussed on the lists? Any idea what Leif is talking about when he says the community is in transition, moving from dial plan model to external control? Here’s a link to the notes posted on the Asterisk wiki: https://wiki.asterisk.org/wiki/display/AST/AstriDevCon+2014 -- _ -- Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com -- New to Asterisk? Join us for a live introductory webinar every Thurs: http://www.asterisk.org/hello asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
