Re: [asterisk-users] QoS VPN

2009-05-08 Thread Aurimas Skirgaila
Despite the VPN overhead, running VOIP through VPN is good idea because VPN
reorders encapsulated UDP packets in correct order. Security matters as
well.

I'd suggest to route VNC packets rather over internet than VPN (so do I), as
VPN usually has the highest priority.

On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Roberto Piola roberto.pi...@visiant.itwrote:

 I do not have examples, but if you are using the 1700 series router in
 order to originate the ipsec vpn, you may use command  qos pre-classify
 (please search for it on cco.cisco.com)

 On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 9:54 PM, Brent Davidson 
 br...@texascountrytitle.com wrote:

 I've got multiple satellite office all linked back to the main office
 via VPN.  Each office has their own asterisk server which registers back
 to the main office's Asterisk server.  Each office also has a 1Mb
 downstream / 384k - 768k upstream connection.  The branches are using
 Speex for their connections back to the main office.  The issue I'm
 having is that there are times that I need to VNC in to machines at the
 various offices for tech support while the user is also on the phone.
 Unfortunately the VNC connection apparently takes priority and makes it
 impossible for me to understand anything the person on the phone is
 saying, although they can still hear me fine.

 Our Main office uses a Cisco PIX 506 for the main firewall and VPN
 concentrator.  Each branch office used a Cisco 1700 series router with
 IPSec enabled in the IOS.  Is there any sort of QoS I can turn on on the
 main router or the branch routers to make sure the voice quality takes
 precedence over the VNC?  (Any example configs would be greatly
 appreciated)

 Would I be better off routing the voice packets over the internet rather
 than the VPN, and could I safely do that without exposing the asterisk
 boxes to unnecessary security risks?  (At present all of our asterisk
 boxes are behind the firewalls and only talk to each other over the
 VPN.  All PSTN connection is done through TDM boards so they have no
 direct exposure to the internet.)


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Re: [asterisk-users] QoS VPN

2009-05-08 Thread Jeff LaCoursiere

On Fri, 8 May 2009, Aurimas Skirgaila wrote:

 Despite the VPN overhead, running VOIP through VPN is good idea because VPN
 reorders encapsulated UDP packets in correct order. Security matters as
 well.

Reorders?  How so?  I think it will maintain the order, only if they have 
arrived in the correct order.


 I'd suggest to route VNC packets rather over internet than VPN (so do I), as
 VPN usually has the highest priority.


Unless QoS is implemented packets are first come first served.  There is 
no usually has the highest priority.  Routing one over the Internet 
versus over the VPN won't change that priority.

j

 On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Roberto Piola 
 roberto.pi...@visiant.itwrote:

 I do not have examples, but if you are using the 1700 series router in
 order to originate the ipsec vpn, you may use command  qos pre-classify
 (please search for it on cco.cisco.com)

 On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 9:54 PM, Brent Davidson 
 br...@texascountrytitle.com wrote:

 I've got multiple satellite office all linked back to the main office
 via VPN.  Each office has their own asterisk server which registers back
 to the main office's Asterisk server.  Each office also has a 1Mb
 downstream / 384k - 768k upstream connection.  The branches are using
 Speex for their connections back to the main office.  The issue I'm
 having is that there are times that I need to VNC in to machines at the
 various offices for tech support while the user is also on the phone.
 Unfortunately the VNC connection apparently takes priority and makes it
 impossible for me to understand anything the person on the phone is
 saying, although they can still hear me fine.

 Our Main office uses a Cisco PIX 506 for the main firewall and VPN
 concentrator.  Each branch office used a Cisco 1700 series router with
 IPSec enabled in the IOS.  Is there any sort of QoS I can turn on on the
 main router or the branch routers to make sure the voice quality takes
 precedence over the VNC?  (Any example configs would be greatly
 appreciated)

 Would I be better off routing the voice packets over the internet rather
 than the VPN, and could I safely do that without exposing the asterisk
 boxes to unnecessary security risks?  (At present all of our asterisk
 boxes are behind the firewalls and only talk to each other over the
 VPN.  All PSTN connection is done through TDM boards so they have no
 direct exposure to the internet.)


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 Aurimas Skirgaila


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Re: [asterisk-users] QoS VPN

2009-05-08 Thread Jeremy Mann
Access-list 100 permit ip host asterisk server any

Class-map match-any voip
 Match access-group 100

Policy-map voip
 Class voip
  Priority 256
 Class class-default
  Fair-queue

Interface fastethernet 0
 Service-policy output voip


Above is what I do to prioritize 256kbit of outbound bandwidth to voip calls, 
adjust accordingly.  You must also use the qos pre-classify in your ipsec 
tunnel definitions for this to work, but it does work well.  I know I'm 
potentially mapping other traffic than voip, but I'm lazy and don't want to 
classify the rtp and sip and iax ports, rarely does the box do any other 
traffic than voip as updates occur in off hours.

You'll probably additionally want to match your ipsec keying traffic and give 
it priority bandwidth, if you're going to push voip through the tunnel you'll 
find yourself rekeying more often and want to make sure on a saturated link it 
gets priority so the tunnels don't drop.

If you're on DSL, you probably want to research cascading the Qos, have a root 
policy that throttles all bandwidth to a certain speed, then a child policy 
that prioritizes that bandwidth, so you don't saturate your outbound 
circuit(think in terms of P2P protections).



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Re: [asterisk-users] QoS VPN

2009-05-08 Thread Aurimas Skirgaila
On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 3:45 PM, Jeff LaCoursiere j...@jeff.net wrote:


 On Fri, 8 May 2009, Aurimas Skirgaila wrote:

  Despite the VPN overhead, running VOIP through VPN is good idea because
 VPN
  reorders encapsulated UDP packets in correct order. Security matters as
  well.

 Reorders?  How so?  I think it will maintain the order, only if they have
 arrived in the correct order.


UDP doesn't guarantee that over long way packets arrive in correct order,
while TCP based VPN would sort them correctly ;) well, I'm not sure if all
kinds of VPN are SSL/TCP based.
The author mentioned remote offices so this might be useful for him.



 
  I'd suggest to route VNC packets rather over internet than VPN (so do I),
 as
  VPN usually has the highest priority.
 

 Unless QoS is implemented packets are first come first served.  There is
 no usually has the highest priority.  Routing one over the Internet
 versus over the VPN won't change that priority.


ok.  probably I've misread somewhere about switches which QoS enabled is by
default. By the way we do ask our ISP to prioritize VPN packets and they do.


 j

  On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Roberto Piola roberto.pi...@visiant.it
 wrote:
 
  I do not have examples, but if you are using the 1700 series router in
  order to originate the ipsec vpn, you may use command  qos pre-classify
  (please search for it on cco.cisco.com)
 
  On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 9:54 PM, Brent Davidson 
  br...@texascountrytitle.com wrote:
 
  I've got multiple satellite office all linked back to the main office
  via VPN.  Each office has their own asterisk server which registers
 back
  to the main office's Asterisk server.  Each office also has a 1Mb
  downstream / 384k - 768k upstream connection.  The branches are using
  Speex for their connections back to the main office.  The issue I'm
  having is that there are times that I need to VNC in to machines at the
  various offices for tech support while the user is also on the phone.
  Unfortunately the VNC connection apparently takes priority and makes it
  impossible for me to understand anything the person on the phone is
  saying, although they can still hear me fine.
 
  Our Main office uses a Cisco PIX 506 for the main firewall and VPN
  concentrator.  Each branch office used a Cisco 1700 series router with
  IPSec enabled in the IOS.  Is there any sort of QoS I can turn on on
 the
  main router or the branch routers to make sure the voice quality takes
  precedence over the VNC?  (Any example configs would be greatly
  appreciated)
 
  Would I be better off routing the voice packets over the internet
 rather
  than the VPN, and could I safely do that without exposing the asterisk
  boxes to unnecessary security risks?  (At present all of our asterisk
  boxes are behind the firewalls and only talk to each other over the
  VPN.  All PSTN connection is done through TDM boards so they have no
  direct exposure to the internet.)
 
 
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  Mvh,
  Aurimas Skirgaila
 

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Re: [asterisk-users] QoS VPN

2009-05-08 Thread David Backeberg
On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Brent Davidson
br...@texascountrytitle.com wrote:
 I've got multiple satellite office all linked back to the main office
 via VPN.  Each office has their own asterisk server which registers back
 to the main office's Asterisk server.  Each office also has a 1Mb
 downstream / 384k - 768k upstream connection.  The branches are using
 Speex for their connections back to the main office.  The issue I'm
 having is that there are times that I need to VNC in to machines at the
 various offices for tech support while the user is also on the phone.
 Unfortunately the VNC connection apparently takes priority and makes it
 impossible for me to understand anything the person on the phone is
 saying, although they can still hear me fine.

VNC is very asymmetric. It doesn't generate much traffic from the
person viewing, and it generates lots of traffic FROM the system being
viewed. This helps explain why the system being viewed side can hear
incoming voice packets, and outbound voice packets that have to
compete with the large amount of outgoing video signal data lose. QoS
may or may not help you here.

If voice quality is important, you should have a separate connection
dedicated to just voice. The obvious workaround is grab your cell
phone and call them with that. You DO have a way to dial directly to
that office without going over the PIX, right, right? How do you call
the remote office when the PIX goes down?

What will help you is getting a bigger line or separating the voice
traffic from the data traffic completely.

If you are good with ssh, you can also do a compressed ssh tunnel to
encrypt and on-the-fly compress the VNC session. But if this is
Windows good luck with that.

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Re: [asterisk-users] QoS VPN

2009-05-08 Thread Garth van Sittert
I would think that VoIP over VPN is a bad idea as UDP packets need to be 
in realtime not corrected by the TCP of the VPN.

Garth van Sittert
Technical Director
BitCo
08600 24826
www.bitco.co.za



Aurimas Skirgaila wrote:
 Despite the VPN overhead, running VOIP through VPN is good idea 
 because VPN reorders encapsulated UDP packets in correct order. 
 Security matters as well.

 I'd suggest to route VNC packets rather over internet than VPN (so do 
 I), as VPN usually has the highest priority.

 On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Roberto Piola 
 roberto.pi...@visiant.it mailto:roberto.pi...@visiant.it wrote:

 I do not have examples, but if you are using the 1700 series
 router in order to originate the ipsec vpn, you may use command 
 qos pre-classify (please search for it on cco.cisco.com
 http://cco.cisco.com)


 On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 9:54 PM, Brent Davidson
 br...@texascountrytitle.com mailto:br...@texascountrytitle.com
 wrote:

 I've got multiple satellite office all linked back to the main
 office
 via VPN.  Each office has their own asterisk server which
 registers back
 to the main office's Asterisk server.  Each office also has a 1Mb
 downstream / 384k - 768k upstream connection.  The branches
 are using
 Speex for their connections back to the main office.  The
 issue I'm
 having is that there are times that I need to VNC in to
 machines at the
 various offices for tech support while the user is also on the
 phone.
 Unfortunately the VNC connection apparently takes priority and
 makes it
 impossible for me to understand anything the person on the
 phone is
 saying, although they can still hear me fine.

 Our Main office uses a Cisco PIX 506 for the main firewall and VPN
 concentrator.  Each branch office used a Cisco 1700 series
 router with
 IPSec enabled in the IOS.  Is there any sort of QoS I can turn
 on on the
 main router or the branch routers to make sure the voice
 quality takes
 precedence over the VNC?  (Any example configs would be
 greatly appreciated)

 Would I be better off routing the voice packets over the
 internet rather
 than the VPN, and could I safely do that without exposing the
 asterisk
 boxes to unnecessary security risks?  (At present all of our
 asterisk
 boxes are behind the firewalls and only talk to each other
 over the
 VPN.  All PSTN connection is done through TDM boards so they
 have no
 direct exposure to the internet.)


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 Mvh,
 Aurimas Skirgaila
 

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Re: [asterisk-users] QoS VPN

2009-05-08 Thread Tilghman Lesher
On Friday 08 May 2009 10:07:43 Garth van Sittert wrote:
 I would think that VoIP over VPN is a bad idea as UDP packets need to be
 in realtime not corrected by the TCP of the VPN.

Not all VPNs use TCP.  OpenVPN, in particular, uses UDP for the backbone.

-- 
Tilghman

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Re: [asterisk-users] QoS VPN

2009-05-08 Thread Dave Platt
 I would think that VoIP over VPN is a bad idea as UDP packets need to be 
 in realtime not corrected by the TCP of the VPN.

That depends very much on the VPN in use.

OpenVPN doesn't suffer from this problem.  Although it's SSL-based
(and one might think it does everything through SSL-over-TCP),
it actually sends the VPN traffic via UDP... it uses TCP only
for the negotiation and administrative aspects of setting up
the VPN connection.

As far as I know, OpenVPN makes no attempt at all to re-order
the packets that it encapsulates and transmits.  It simply
accepts the IP packets it is to carry, encrypts them individually,
wraps them in UDP, and retransmits them to its peer.  The peer
receives the UDP, decrypts, and forwards.  No re-ordering.

There may be other VPNs which actually carry all of the
VPN'ed data in a single TCP stream... but I think this is
generally agreed to be a Bad Idea for several reasons.

I run SIP over OpenVPN between my Nokia N810 handheld, and
my Asterisk server at home.  I have not noticed any difference
in call quality between SIP-over-OpenVPN, and non-VPN'ed
SIP, between these two endpoints... except, of course, when
the OpenVPN-encapsulated traffic gets through, and non-VPN'ed
traffic doesn't due to firewall or NATing problems at a
particular wireless network access point.





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Re: [asterisk-users] QoS VPN

2009-05-08 Thread Casey Boone


Dave Platt wrote:
 OpenVPN doesn't suffer from this problem.  Although it's SSL-based
 (and one might think it does everything through SSL-over-TCP),
 it actually sends the VPN traffic via UDP... it uses TCP only
 for the negotiation and administrative aspects of setting up
 the VPN connection.
 


UDP is the default, but OpenVPN can be configured for TCP as well


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Re: [asterisk-users] QoS VPN

2009-05-08 Thread Frank Bulk - iName.com
It's been a few years ago, but Network Computing had tests results showing
that VoIP over a VPN was measurably better than outside a VPN.  Why?
Because the latency was low enough that lost UDP packets (within the VPN
tunnel) could be re-transmitted before the jitter buffer had expired.  Since
most jitter buffers are on the order for 10 to 80 msec, if your one-way
latency is any greater than a third of your jitter buffer, it's of no use.
For example, if the one-way latency is 15 msec, the best-case scenario is
that with single-time packet loss, the other packet would arrive at the
destination in ~45 msec.

Frank

-Original Message-
From: asterisk-users-boun...@lists.digium.com
[mailto:asterisk-users-boun...@lists.digium.com] On Behalf Of Garth van
Sittert
Sent: Friday, May 08, 2009 10:08 AM
To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion
Subject: Re: [asterisk-users] QoS  VPN

I would think that VoIP over VPN is a bad idea as UDP packets need to be 
in realtime not corrected by the TCP of the VPN.

Garth van Sittert
Technical Director
BitCo
08600 24826
www.bitco.co.za



Aurimas Skirgaila wrote:
 Despite the VPN overhead, running VOIP through VPN is good idea 
 because VPN reorders encapsulated UDP packets in correct order. 
 Security matters as well.

 I'd suggest to route VNC packets rather over internet than VPN (so do 
 I), as VPN usually has the highest priority.

 On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Roberto Piola 
 roberto.pi...@visiant.it mailto:roberto.pi...@visiant.it wrote:

 I do not have examples, but if you are using the 1700 series
 router in order to originate the ipsec vpn, you may use command 
 qos pre-classify (please search for it on cco.cisco.com
 http://cco.cisco.com)


 On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 9:54 PM, Brent Davidson
 br...@texascountrytitle.com mailto:br...@texascountrytitle.com
 wrote:

 I've got multiple satellite office all linked back to the main
 office
 via VPN.  Each office has their own asterisk server which
 registers back
 to the main office's Asterisk server.  Each office also has a 1Mb
 downstream / 384k - 768k upstream connection.  The branches
 are using
 Speex for their connections back to the main office.  The
 issue I'm
 having is that there are times that I need to VNC in to
 machines at the
 various offices for tech support while the user is also on the
 phone.
 Unfortunately the VNC connection apparently takes priority and
 makes it
 impossible for me to understand anything the person on the
 phone is
 saying, although they can still hear me fine.

 Our Main office uses a Cisco PIX 506 for the main firewall and VPN
 concentrator.  Each branch office used a Cisco 1700 series
 router with
 IPSec enabled in the IOS.  Is there any sort of QoS I can turn
 on on the
 main router or the branch routers to make sure the voice
 quality takes
 precedence over the VNC?  (Any example configs would be
 greatly appreciated)

 Would I be better off routing the voice packets over the
 internet rather
 than the VPN, and could I safely do that without exposing the
 asterisk
 boxes to unnecessary security risks?  (At present all of our
 asterisk
 boxes are behind the firewalls and only talk to each other
 over the
 VPN.  All PSTN connection is done through TDM boards so they
 have no
 direct exposure to the internet.)


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 Aurimas Skirgaila
 

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Re: [asterisk-users] QoS VPN

2009-05-08 Thread Brent Davidson

David Backeberg wrote:

On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 3:54 PM, Brent Davidson
br...@texascountrytitle.com wrote:
  

I've got multiple satellite office all linked back to the main office
via VPN.  Each office has their own asterisk server which registers back
to the main office's Asterisk server.  Each office also has a 1Mb
downstream / 384k - 768k upstream connection.  The branches are using
Speex for their connections back to the main office.  The issue I'm
having is that there are times that I need to VNC in to machines at the
various offices for tech support while the user is also on the phone.
Unfortunately the VNC connection apparently takes priority and makes it
impossible for me to understand anything the person on the phone is
saying, although they can still hear me fine.



VNC is very asymmetric. It doesn't generate much traffic from the
person viewing, and it generates lots of traffic FROM the system being
viewed. This helps explain why the system being viewed side can hear
incoming voice packets, and outbound voice packets that have to
compete with the large amount of outgoing video signal data lose. QoS
may or may not help you here.

  
Well, the fact that our central office has a 10mb downstream / 5mb 
upstream connection (Two 5Mb down 2.5Mb up DSl connections load shared) 
helps with them hearing me clearly too, I'm sure.  I can get the packets 
to them faster than they can get packets to me.

If voice quality is important, you should have a separate connection
dedicated to just voice. The obvious workaround is grab your cell
phone and call them with that. You DO have a way to dial directly to
that office without going over the PIX, right, right? How do you call
the remote office when the PIX goes down?

What will help you is getting a bigger line or separating the voice
traffic from the data traffic completely.

If you are good with ssh, you can also do a compressed ssh tunnel to
encrypt and on-the-fly compress the VNC session. But if this is
Windows good luck with that.
  
Yes, we can dial all satellite office through the PSTN if we really want 
to, but one of the reasons we went to a VOIP system was to cut down on 
the long-distance charges that result from office-to-office calls, and 
to be able to transfer calls from one office to another.  All in all the 
system works as designed, except for the rare occasions that I'm doing 
support with VNC and have a person on the remote extension as well.  But 
just because nobody else has complained yet doesn't mean there aren't 
other conditions that could trigger a poor-quality call.  If I can find 
a solution that works in my worst-case VNC situation then maybe I'll 
prevent a few future issues from ever becoming real problems.


Separating the voice off to it's own connection would defeat the 
cost-cutting reasoning behind the system.



Thanks,
Brent
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Re: [asterisk-users] QoS VPN

2009-05-08 Thread Brent Davidson
Jeremy Mann wrote:
 Access-list 100 permit ip host asterisk server any

 Class-map match-any voip
  Match access-group 100

 Policy-map voip
  Class voip
   Priority 256
  Class class-default
   Fair-queue

 Interface fastethernet 0
  Service-policy output voip


 Above is what I do to prioritize 256kbit of outbound bandwidth to voip calls, 
 adjust accordingly.  You must also use the qos pre-classify in your ipsec 
 tunnel definitions for this to work, but it does work well.  I know I'm 
 potentially mapping other traffic than voip, but I'm lazy and don't want to 
 classify the rtp and sip and iax ports, rarely does the box do any other 
 traffic than voip as updates occur in off hours.

 You'll probably additionally want to match your ipsec keying traffic and give 
 it priority bandwidth, if you're going to push voip through the tunnel you'll 
 find yourself rekeying more often and want to make sure on a saturated link 
 it gets priority so the tunnels don't drop.

 If you're on DSL, you probably want to research cascading the Qos, have a 
 root policy that throttles all bandwidth to a certain speed, then a child 
 policy that prioritizes that bandwidth, so you don't saturate your outbound 
 circuit(think in terms of P2P protections).

   
Thank you.  This is EXACTLY what I was looking for.  Do the packet 
counters for show policy-map int fast 0/0 only increment when the 
queuing kicks in or should they be incrementing all the time as packets 
flow?

Thanks again,
Brent



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[asterisk-users] QoS VPN

2009-05-07 Thread Brent Davidson
I've got multiple satellite office all linked back to the main office 
via VPN.  Each office has their own asterisk server which registers back 
to the main office's Asterisk server.  Each office also has a 1Mb 
downstream / 384k - 768k upstream connection.  The branches are using 
Speex for their connections back to the main office.  The issue I'm 
having is that there are times that I need to VNC in to machines at the 
various offices for tech support while the user is also on the phone.  
Unfortunately the VNC connection apparently takes priority and makes it 
impossible for me to understand anything the person on the phone is 
saying, although they can still hear me fine.

Our Main office uses a Cisco PIX 506 for the main firewall and VPN 
concentrator.  Each branch office used a Cisco 1700 series router with 
IPSec enabled in the IOS.  Is there any sort of QoS I can turn on on the 
main router or the branch routers to make sure the voice quality takes 
precedence over the VNC?  (Any example configs would be greatly appreciated)

Would I be better off routing the voice packets over the internet rather 
than the VPN, and could I safely do that without exposing the asterisk 
boxes to unnecessary security risks?  (At present all of our asterisk 
boxes are behind the firewalls and only talk to each other over the 
VPN.  All PSTN connection is done through TDM boards so they have no 
direct exposure to the internet.)

Thanks,
Brent Davidson

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Re: [asterisk-users] QoS VPN

2009-05-07 Thread Roberto Piola
I do not have examples, but if you are using the 1700 series router in order
to originate the ipsec vpn, you may use command qos pre-classify (please
search for it on cco.cisco.com)

On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 9:54 PM, Brent Davidson
br...@texascountrytitle.comwrote:

 I've got multiple satellite office all linked back to the main office
 via VPN.  Each office has their own asterisk server which registers back
 to the main office's Asterisk server.  Each office also has a 1Mb
 downstream / 384k - 768k upstream connection.  The branches are using
 Speex for their connections back to the main office.  The issue I'm
 having is that there are times that I need to VNC in to machines at the
 various offices for tech support while the user is also on the phone.
 Unfortunately the VNC connection apparently takes priority and makes it
 impossible for me to understand anything the person on the phone is
 saying, although they can still hear me fine.

 Our Main office uses a Cisco PIX 506 for the main firewall and VPN
 concentrator.  Each branch office used a Cisco 1700 series router with
 IPSec enabled in the IOS.  Is there any sort of QoS I can turn on on the
 main router or the branch routers to make sure the voice quality takes
 precedence over the VNC?  (Any example configs would be greatly
 appreciated)

 Would I be better off routing the voice packets over the internet rather
 than the VPN, and could I safely do that without exposing the asterisk
 boxes to unnecessary security risks?  (At present all of our asterisk
 boxes are behind the firewalls and only talk to each other over the
 VPN.  All PSTN connection is done through TDM boards so they have no
 direct exposure to the internet.)


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