Re: [asterisk-users] Why does everyone seem to dislike *now?
On 9/21/07, Tim Panton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think IRC is the natural habitat of people who like NOW, NOW is for people who like web based GUIs. You are much more likely to find them over in the web based digium forums. Since we're talking about this, I have been on the #asterisk channel of Freenode for a few years. I came on as a complete newbie have very rarely used IRC if ever. Before posting on any IRC channel, it's absolutely imperative to lurk there as along as possible to see what kind of people are there, what the sense of humor is like (I'm thinking of say TKDefender or Steve Underwood as examples) and maybe you'll be ready to interface with the group after you've seen a few attacks on people who don't lurk before jumping in. Every extreme exists on tech IRC channels, and the key term here is EXTREME. SOme epople act like robots, immediately calling FLOOD! if someone pastes exactly three lines of a dialplan. Other are saying in explicit terms that if you'd bothered to google for this, blah which is very true 80% of the time and useless for things where an entry-level user whould know what to google for. (DISA? How would you know that term?) I myself am usually patient but I have gotten irritated and even had to resort to the ignore list a few times when after giving a few specific links it becomes obvious that the person just will not go study the stuff but wants to be hand held live. Yes, AsteriskNOW! and Trixbox are NOT the subjects of #asterisk. There is IMO though a need for a less mechanical way to make people understand that without immediate rudeness. For the faint at heart, monitored web forums are probably better. If you think IRC will help, the best way to use it would be literally to luck for days until a question comes up that you have some insight into. At that point, you can actually bring something in, and you'll defacto have become part of the group. By watching the dicsussion for a few days, you'll know all about pastebin, about not asking if you can asj a question, about having a ducks back for the few constantly and systematically rude people (I have no one person in mind here :) ansd you will find yourself laughing at lous to Steve Underwood's poker-face jokes that come out of nowhere. Personally, I will not talk to anyone who does not know what a dialplan is and refuses to go read a link to the explanation. ___ Sign up now for AstriCon 2007! September 25-28th. http://www.astricon.net/ --Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com-- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Why does everyone seem to dislike *now?
On 18 Sep 2007, at 18:11, Eric ManxPower Wieling wrote: If the #AsteriskNOW channel is dead on IRC that does not mean you can bring your problems to a channel dedicated to Asterisk (i.e. no GUI). Go ahead and use AsteriskNOW, but don't pester the people in #asterisk, most of which have never used it and many have never even heard of it. My 2c on this I don't think IRC is the natural habitat of people who like NOW, NOW is for people who like web based GUIs. You are much more likely to find them over in the web based digium forums. I've been using NOW recently as a test environment. Basically you can stick a single CD in a PC, re-install and have a know good asterisk with all the right modules in minutes. When you trash the machine, you can get back to the starting point in a few minutes. Tim. ___ Sign up now for AstriCon 2007! September 25-28th. http://www.astricon.net/ --Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com-- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Why does everyone seem to dislike *now?
Hi Jim, FWIW we'll be talking about AsteriskNow among other things on the VOIP Users Conference this Friday at 12:30 PM. If you can't listen or phone in live, you can check out the archive recordings later: http://www.VoipUsersConference.org http://www.VoipUsersConference.org/topics.php - agenda (and listen/download) http://www.VoipUsersConference.org/astusers.htm - play in Flash player On a personal note, I might have been interested in experiencing *now, but you need to have an available, trashable piece of hardware to use it AFAIK. If I'm wrong, I'll find out from whoever is around from Digium to talk about the subject Friday. Randy On 9/17/07, Jim Canfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greetings, Last week I began researching Asterisk for the first time. I did what most noobs would do; downloaded an image that seemed simple and straightforward and had some credibility (*now). I also downloaded the TFOT version 1 as a guide. As questions arose, I tossed a few out in #asterisckNOW channel..and found it to be a ghost town. Only later did i start to ask a few quesions in #asterisk...my biggest mistake was mentioning *now and I was quickly marked as the GUI idiot. Not entirely untrue at this point but not helpful for someone who is getting started. Here are my first impressions: The Devs have spent a LOT of time on *now and seem to be doing a fantastic job. *now is not just a GUI...it's a complete base/reference system - I like that the MOST. *now is a great starting point for someone new (Me). *now needs documentation! I know it's in beta, but having links to a down site, is not cool. (Sign me up for help if needed). *now could be more geared for use as a universal tool. The default contexts and files were quickly replaced with more standard configs. *now could be very helpful in tracking issues with links to Report a problem or search the WIKI from the app. I understand the tendency to love the CLI, but I honestly think there a place for a GUI in Asterisk. How many of us still use the mysql CLI? I can't expect my helpdesk guy to know emacs or vi just to add a user. Curiously, jc ___ Sign up now for AstriCon 2007! September 25-28th. http://www.astricon.net/ --Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com-- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Sign up now for AstriCon 2007! September 25-28th. http://www.astricon.net/ --Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com-- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Why does everyone seem to dislike *now?
On Mon, Sep 17, 2007 at 06:48:37PM -0500, Lacy Moore - Aspendora wrote: What you will find is that asking gui questions in asterisk is about like asking about the New York Giants in a New York Jets forums. They are both NFL teams and both from New York. However, they both have their own fan base and not too many people are fans of both and neither one will help you with information regarding the other. That's a pretty weak analogy. A better one, in my opinion, would be asking about SCO Unix on a general Unix forum. I may know Asterisk, and may try to help you, but when you start talking the gui's I won't be able to help much. Not because I'm ignoring you, but because I don't know the gui's. I know the cli and have no use in learning the gui. Which is fine, but I gather he felt dissed, not merely ignored. (Note: I wasn't there) Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth Baylink [EMAIL PROTECTED] Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100 Ashworth Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24 St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274 ___ Sign up now for AstriCon 2007! September 25-28th. http://www.astricon.net/ --Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com-- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Why does everyone seem to dislike *now?
On 9/17/07, Jim Canfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: stuff useless. My real concern was the immediate '/ignore' for asking about an issue with the *now ditro that actually had nothing to do with the GUI itself. Truth be told, most of my time today was in the CLI You may be taking what happened on IRC a bit too literally. You got plenty of help on your Polycom and call parking issues on 09/14, from some very knowledgeable people. On 09/17, you asked one question about rPath/Conary and one person did a '/me puts jcanfield on ignore' emote. He probably didn't even ignore you, it was just his way of saying he wasn't interested in answering questions about packaging systems on a Linux distro he doesn't use. The simple answer to your question (how do I get the LDAPGet module) is answered on the Wiki - you download it from the author's site. The question of how do I package some arbitrary source code into a conary package? isn't really germane to #asterisk. As to the second class citizen point, I think you'll find that people who come into #asterisk asking about problems with their GUI-enabled Asterisk install fall into one of two categories: those who are willing to reduce the problem down to it's non-GUI elements and pastebin the configs and output, and those who are incapable or unwilling to do so. The former tend to get help from people on #asterisk; IMHO the latter should find other places to ask for help, or pay for consulting services. -- j. ___ Sign up now for AstriCon 2007! September 25-28th. http://www.astricon.net/ --Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com-- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Why does everyone seem to dislike *now?
James FitzGibbon wrote: On 9/17/07, *Jim Canfield* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: stuff useless. My real concern was the immediate '/ignore' for asking about an issue with the *now ditro that actually had nothing to do with the GUI itself. Truth be told, most of my time today was in the CLI You may be taking what happened on IRC a bit too literally. You got plenty of help on your Polycom and call parking issues on 09/14, from some very knowledgeable people. On 09/17, you asked one question about rPath/Conary and one person did a '/me puts jcanfield on ignore' emote. He probably didn't even ignore you, it was just his way of saying he wasn't interested in answering questions about packaging systems on a Linux distro he doesn't use. The simple answer to your question (how do I get the LDAPGet module) is answered on the Wiki - you download it from the author's site. The question of how do I package some arbitrary source code into a conary package? isn't really germane to #asterisk. As to the second class citizen point, I think you'll find that people who come into #asterisk asking about problems with their GUI-enabled Asterisk install fall into one of two categories: those who are willing to reduce the problem down to it's non-GUI elements and pastebin the configs and output, and those who are incapable or unwilling to do so. The former tend to get help from people on #asterisk; IMHO the latter should find other places to ask for help, or pay for consulting services. -- j. Three cheers, Most of these people you are expecting help from are volunteering their time and assistance, for you to complain that you don't think you got enough service from volunteers is a bit preposterous. -- Thank you and have a wonderful day, Anthony Francis Rockynet VOIP ___ Sign up now for AstriCon 2007! September 25-28th. http://www.astricon.net/ --Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com-- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Why does everyone seem to dislike *now?
James FitzGibbon wrote: On 9/17/07, Jim Canfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: stuff useless. My real concern was the immediate '/ignore' for asking about an issue with the *now ditro that actually had nothing to do with the GUI itself. Truth be told, most of my time today was in the CLI You may be taking what happened on IRC a bit too literally. You are right, judging from the responses I have received both on and off-list. Everyone has been extremely polite and understanding. I partly expected to get flamed on this one. Many thanks to all who responded! You got plenty of help on your Polycom and call parking issues on 09/14, from some very knowledgeable people. On 09/17, you asked one question about rPath/Conary and one person did a '/me puts jcanfield on ignore' emote. He probably didn't even ignore you, it was just his way of saying he wasn't interested in answering questions about packaging systems on a Linux distro he doesn't use. The simple answer to your question (how do I get the LDAPGet module) is answered on the Wiki - you download it from the author's site. The question of how do I package some arbitrary source code into a conary package? isn't really germane to #asterisk. In no way did I mean to discredit the help I have received so far. As a newcomer I saw asterisk/asteriskNOW/Digium as one and the same. I realize now, the ecosystem that is Asterisk, is much more diverse than that. As to the second class citizen point, I think you'll find that people who come into #asterisk asking about problems with their GUI-enabled Asterisk install fall into one of two categories: those who are willing to reduce the problem down to it's non-GUI elements and pastebin the configs and output, and those who are incapable or unwilling to do so. The former tend to get help from people on #asterisk; IMHO the latter should find other places to ask for help, or pay for consulting services. 100% agree. Thanks again. jc References Visible links 1. mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Sign up now for AstriCon 2007! September 25-28th. http://www.astricon.net/ --Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com-- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Why does everyone seem to dislike *now?
You cannot set up your dialplan with the CLI or am I missing something? Creating relatively simple dialplans manually can be quite time consuming. A GUI takes care of all that grunt work. -Original Message- From: SIP [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 17, 2007 2:12 PM To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion Subject: Re: [asterisk-users] Why does everyone seem to dislike *now? Not at all relevant to your query, but I still use the mysql CLI for any mysql task... and while most OSs have nice, functional tools to add users (command-line tools), there are SOME (*cough* Irix *cough*) where there are no CLI tools and VI is your only option (especially if you're remotely logged in via a term window and have no X). GUIs have their place. But it's often a trade-off between abstracting the details to make things user-friendly and hiding the power that is available via the CLI from someone who knows it. If you're comfortable with the CLI, why learn another tool? If you're NOT comfortable with the CLI, by all means use a GUI, but don't expect people who never use it to be of much help when you ask questions. That being said, I like AsteriskNow's GUI. They've obviously spent a lot of work on it (prettier than the stuff that comes with Trixbox). However, for me, I learned using vi and the cli, so I can never quite find what I'm looking for in AsteriskNow. N. Jim Canfield wrote: Greetings, Last week I began researching Asterisk for the first time. I did what most noobs would do; downloaded an image that seemed simple and straightforward and had some credibility (*now). I also downloaded the TFOT version 1 as a guide. As questions arose, I tossed a few out in #asterisckNOW channel..and found it to be a ghost town. Only later did i start to ask a few quesions in #asterisk...my biggest mistake was mentioning *now and I was quickly marked as the GUI idiot. Not entirely untrue at this point but not helpful for someone who is getting started. Here are my first impressions: * The Devs have spent a LOT of time on *now and seem to be doing a fantastic job. * *now is not just a GUI...it's a complete base/reference system - I like that the MOST. * *now is a great starting point for someone new (Me). * *now needs documentation! I know it's in beta, but having links to a down site, is not cool. (Sign me up for help if needed). * *now could be more geared for use as a universal tool. The default contexts and files were quickly replaced with more standard configs. * *now could be very helpful in tracking issues with links to Report a problem or search the WIKI from the app. I understand the tendency to love the CLI, but I honestly think there a place for a GUI in Asterisk. How many of us still use the mysql CLI? I can't expect my helpdesk guy to know emacs or vi just to add a user. Curiously, jc ___ Sign up now for AstriCon 2007! September 25-28th. http://www.astricon.net/ --Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com-- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Why does everyone seem to dislike *now?
On Tue, Sep 18, 2007 at 10:03:50AM -0700, shadowym wrote: You cannot set up your dialplan with the CLI or am I missing something? Creating relatively simple dialplans manually can be quite time consuming. A GUI takes care of all that grunt work. You write a dialplan with a text editor. Or copy from an existing sample / template. And you use decent automation and proper includes and patterns. GUIs often tend to force you to do time-consuming work over and over again and get in the way of automation, which is usually trivial in a decent command-line interface. GUIs automate certain things. As long as you are within the supported flow. But once you leave it, you often have to do more work. (Those are generic observasions. Let's not go over the GUI flamewars again) -- Tzafrir Cohen icq#16849755jabber:[EMAIL PROTECTED] +972-50-7952406 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.xorcom.com iax:[EMAIL PROTECTED]/tzafrir ___ Sign up now for AstriCon 2007! September 25-28th. http://www.astricon.net/ --Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com-- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Why does everyone seem to dislike *now?
If the #AsteriskNOW channel is dead on IRC that does not mean you can bring your problems to a channel dedicated to Asterisk (i.e. no GUI). Go ahead and use AsteriskNOW, but don't pester the people in #asterisk, most of which have never used it and many have never even heard of it. All the GUIs make incredibly complex dialplans, macros, and AGIs to do what they do. If you are using AsteriskNOW and build your config files from scratch then most everyone on #asterisk is willing to help you -- you are using simple easy to understand, troubleshoot, and diagnose config files. The problem with this is that the GUI will no longer work. AsteriskNOW is not Asterisk. Asking questions about AsteriskNOW on #asterisk is like asking for support for your linux based cell phone on #linux. The environment, built, paths, libraries, and software are all totally different on a linux based cellphone and people that know Linux really can't help you. All you end up doing is wasting people's time. There is a similar problem with #asterisk-dev. You do not go to #asterisk-dev to ask user type questions. That is not what the channel is for. #asterisk-dev is for development questions related to Asterisk. I'm sure that AsteriskNOW is a great product. Use the correct support methods, that is all we ask. SIP wrote: Not at all relevant to your query, but I still use the mysql CLI for any mysql task... and while most OSs have nice, functional tools to add users (command-line tools), there are SOME (*cough* Irix *cough*) where there are no CLI tools and VI is your only option (especially if you're remotely logged in via a term window and have no X). GUIs have their place. But it's often a trade-off between abstracting the details to make things user-friendly and hiding the power that is available via the CLI from someone who knows it. If you're comfortable with the CLI, why learn another tool? If you're NOT comfortable with the CLI, by all means use a GUI, but don't expect people who never use it to be of much help when you ask questions. That being said, I like AsteriskNow's GUI. They've obviously spent a lot of work on it (prettier than the stuff that comes with Trixbox). However, for me, I learned using vi and the cli, so I can never quite find what I'm looking for in AsteriskNow. N. Jim Canfield wrote: Greetings, Last week I began researching Asterisk for the first time. I did what most noobs would do; downloaded an image that seemed simple and straightforward and had some credibility (*now). I also downloaded the TFOT version 1 as a guide. As questions arose, I tossed a few out in #asterisckNOW channel..and found it to be a ghost town. Only later did i start to ask a few quesions in #asterisk...my biggest mistake was mentioning *now and I was quickly marked as the GUI idiot. Not entirely untrue at this point but not helpful for someone who is getting started. Here are my first impressions: * The Devs have spent a LOT of time on *now and seem to be doing a fantastic job. * *now is not just a GUI...it's a complete base/reference system - I like that the MOST. * *now is a great starting point for someone new (Me). * *now needs documentation! I know it's in beta, but having links to a down site, is not cool. (Sign me up for help if needed). * *now could be more geared for use as a universal tool. The default contexts and files were quickly replaced with more standard configs. * *now could be very helpful in tracking issues with links to Report a problem or search the WIKI from the app. I understand the tendency to love the CLI, but I honestly think there a place for a GUI in Asterisk. How many of us still use the mysql CLI? I can't expect my helpdesk guy to know emacs or vi just to add a user. ___ Sign up now for AstriCon 2007! September 25-28th. http://www.astricon.net/ --Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com-- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
[asterisk-users] Why does everyone seem to dislike *now?
Greetings, Last week I began researching Asterisk for the first time. I did what most noobs would do; downloaded an image that seemed simple and straightforward and had some credibility (*now). I also downloaded the TFOT version 1 as a guide. As questions arose, I tossed a few out in #asterisckNOW channel..and found it to be a ghost town. Only later did i start to ask a few quesions in #asterisk...my biggest mistake was mentioning *now and I was quickly marked as the GUI idiot. Not entirely untrue at this point but not helpful for someone who is getting started. Here are my first impressions: * The Devs have spent a LOT of time on *now and seem to be doing a fantastic job. * *now is not just a GUI...it's a complete base/reference system - I like that the MOST. * *now is a great starting point for someone new (Me). * *now needs documentation! I know it's in beta, but having links to a down site, is not cool. (Sign me up for help if needed). * *now could be more geared for use as a universal tool. The default contexts and files were quickly replaced with more standard configs. * *now could be very helpful in tracking issues with links to Report a problem or search the WIKI from the app. I understand the tendency to love the CLI, but I honestly think there a place for a GUI in Asterisk. How many of us still use the mysql CLI? I can't expect my helpdesk guy to know emacs or vi just to add a user. Curiously, jc ___ Sign up now for AstriCon 2007! September 25-28th. http://www.astricon.net/ --Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com-- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Why does everyone seem to dislike *now?
Not at all relevant to your query, but I still use the mysql CLI for any mysql task... and while most OSs have nice, functional tools to add users (command-line tools), there are SOME (*cough* Irix *cough*) where there are no CLI tools and VI is your only option (especially if you're remotely logged in via a term window and have no X). GUIs have their place. But it's often a trade-off between abstracting the details to make things user-friendly and hiding the power that is available via the CLI from someone who knows it. If you're comfortable with the CLI, why learn another tool? If you're NOT comfortable with the CLI, by all means use a GUI, but don't expect people who never use it to be of much help when you ask questions. That being said, I like AsteriskNow's GUI. They've obviously spent a lot of work on it (prettier than the stuff that comes with Trixbox). However, for me, I learned using vi and the cli, so I can never quite find what I'm looking for in AsteriskNow. N. Jim Canfield wrote: Greetings, Last week I began researching Asterisk for the first time. I did what most noobs would do; downloaded an image that seemed simple and straightforward and had some credibility (*now). I also downloaded the TFOT version 1 as a guide. As questions arose, I tossed a few out in #asterisckNOW channel..and found it to be a ghost town. Only later did i start to ask a few quesions in #asterisk...my biggest mistake was mentioning *now and I was quickly marked as the GUI idiot. Not entirely untrue at this point but not helpful for someone who is getting started. Here are my first impressions: * The Devs have spent a LOT of time on *now and seem to be doing a fantastic job. * *now is not just a GUI...it's a complete base/reference system - I like that the MOST. * *now is a great starting point for someone new (Me). * *now needs documentation! I know it's in beta, but having links to a down site, is not cool. (Sign me up for help if needed). * *now could be more geared for use as a universal tool. The default contexts and files were quickly replaced with more standard configs. * *now could be very helpful in tracking issues with links to Report a problem or search the WIKI from the app. I understand the tendency to love the CLI, but I honestly think there a place for a GUI in Asterisk. How many of us still use the mysql CLI? I can't expect my helpdesk guy to know emacs or vi just to add a user. Curiously, jc ___ Sign up now for AstriCon 2007! September 25-28th. http://www.astricon.net/ --Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com-- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Why does everyone seem to dislike *now?
SIP wrote: Not at all relevant to your query, but I still use the mysql CLI for any mysql task... and while most OSs have nice, functional tools to add users (command-line tools), there are SOME (*cough* Irix *cough*) where there are no CLI tools and VI is your only option (especially if you're remotely logged in via a term window and have no X). GUIs have their place. But it's often a trade-off between abstracting the details to make things user-friendly and hiding the power that is available via the CLI from someone who knows it. If you're comfortable with the CLI, why learn another tool? If you're NOT comfortable with the CLI, by all means use a GUI, but don't expect people who never use it to be of much help when you ask questions. Thanks for the response. I agree there is a trade-off between abstracting details and making things user friendly. That said, I also believe there are huge barriers to entry when one becomes CLI onlyI'm speaking of newcomers. A proper GUI will take the CLI into account and CLI will remain effective. This is true for most successful linux projects. I was able to create a working system *now and a CLI book (TFOT) w/o any real issues. Granted I did render much of the neat stuff useless. My real concern was the immediate '/ignore' for asking about an issue with the *now ditro that actually had nothing to do with the GUI itself. Truth be told, most of my time today was in the CLI console and the file editor...both are very nice IMHO. I see no reason to create a second class of community citizens. Thanks again, jc That being said, I like AsteriskNow's GUI. They've obviously spent a lot of work on it (prettier than the stuff that comes with Trixbox). However, for me, I learned using vi and the cli, so I can never quite find what I'm looking for in AsteriskNow. N. ___ Sign up now for AstriCon 2007! September 25-28th. http://www.astricon.net/ --Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com-- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Why does everyone seem to dislike *now?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jim Canfield wrote: console and the file editor...both are very nice IMHO. I see no reason to create a second class of community citizens. I think it comes from the fear that without logging into an Asterisk server and knowing what settings etc you are using, the possibilities for problems come under a somewhat different scenario. In the past, you could help someone sort a problem, only for the config files to be overwritten the next time the user did something in the GUI. I think that the GUIs are a good idea for the end customer, but for the person who is supposed to be administering your Asterisk boxes (on a technical level), they can sometimes get in the way. The other problem is that if you give control of a GUI to the user of the system you can end up with a system going down etc because the user decided to change all the settings. - -- Kind Regards, Matt Riddell Director ___ http://www.venturevoip.com (Great new VoIP end to end solution) http://www.venturevoip.com/news.php (Daily Asterisk News - html) http://feeds.venturevoip.com/AsteriskNews (Daily Asterisk News - rss) -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFG7wvuDQNt8rg0Kp4RAhaXAKCssw+Ja7ZifJ5GdX43m/BoN71JiQCguoWJ 64hQwgDjSMIhDskDGCWSrNo= =+XKC -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Sign up now for AstriCon 2007! September 25-28th. http://www.astricon.net/ --Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com-- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Why does everyone seem to dislike *now?
Jim Canfield wrote: SIP wrote: Not at all relevant to your query, but I still use the mysql CLI for any mysql task... and while most OSs have nice, functional tools to add users (command-line tools), there are SOME (*cough* Irix *cough*) where there are no CLI tools and VI is your only option (especially if you're remotely logged in via a term window and have no X). GUIs have their place. But it's often a trade-off between abstracting the details to make things user-friendly and hiding the power that is available via the CLI from someone who knows it. If you're comfortable with the CLI, why learn another tool? If you're NOT comfortable with the CLI, by all means use a GUI, but don't expect people who never use it to be of much help when you ask questions. Thanks for the response. I agree there is a trade-off between abstracting details and making things user friendly. That said, I also believe there are huge barriers to entry when one becomes CLI onlyI'm speaking of newcomers. A proper GUI will take the CLI into account and CLI will remain effective. This is true for most successful linux projects. I was able to create a working system *now and a CLI book (TFOT) w/o any real issues. Granted I did render much of the neat stuff useless. My real concern was the immediate '/ignore' for asking about an issue with the *now ditro that actually had nothing to do with the GUI itself. Truth be told, most of my time today was in the CLI console and the file editor...both are very nice IMHO. I see no reason to create a second class of community citizens. Thanks again, That, I'm afraid, is the stuff of religion: DistroX vs. DistroY; GUI vs. CLI; Power User vs. Noob; etc. It shouldn't be, but the somewhat irrevocable principle of cognitive dissonance says otherwise. I like well-designed GUIs. However, far too often, open-source projects are not ripe with good UI designers -- people who understand the natural flow of data and how to manage it in such a way to make the experience pleasant and easy. That, and good graphic designers. All too often, the coders seem to rely on any ol' UI to get by because, to them, it's all about the functionality and couching that in a display. That's well and good, but it's not enough. Not nearly. Graphics is 1 part science, 4 parts art. UI is 4 parts science, one part art. It's a rare designer who can do both well, and it's a VERY rare coder who can do EITHER well. But try they do... and what comes from it is often a half-assed job that doesn't satisfy ANYone. Power users find it clunky and not powerful enough. Noobs find it clunky, unintuitive, and hard to understand. And then the wars begin. The AsteriskNow gui is better than many I've seen, but it still lacks some basics of program flow and that last 30% of finesse that would make it REALLY appealing. However, for basic getting to and fro in a foreign environment, it'll work in a pinch. N. ___ Sign up now for AstriCon 2007! September 25-28th. http://www.astricon.net/ --Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com-- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Why does everyone seem to dislike *now?
On 9/17/07, Jim Canfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Greetings, Last week I began researching Asterisk for the first time. I did what most noobs would do; downloaded an image that seemed simple and straightforward and had some credibility (*now). I also downloaded the TFOT version 1 as a guide. As questions arose, I tossed a few out in #asterisckNOW channel..and found it to be a ghost town. Only later did i start to ask a few quesions in #asterisk...my biggest mistake was mentioning *now and I was quickly marked as the GUI idiot. Not entirely untrue at this point but not helpful for someone who is getting started. You started in asteriskNOW, which was the right place. No one was there, so you decided to go to asterisk and got upset that no one would answer your questions regarding asteriskNOW. My guess is that there was no one there that had any experience with asteriskNOW, if there was, they would have been on asteriskNOW as well. What you will find is that asking gui questions in asterisk is about like asking about the New York Giants in a New York Jets forums. They are both NFL teams and both from New York. However, they both have their own fan base and not too many people are fans of both and neither one will help you with information regarding the other. I may know Asterisk, and may try to help you, but when you start talking the gui's I won't be able to help much. Not because I'm ignoring you, but because I don't know the gui's. I know the cli and have no use in learning the gui. There is a asterisk-now and asterisk-gui mailing list. Both are low volume compared to this. There is also some forums for asteriskNOW located at forums.digium.com. You may want to give the forums a try. asteriskNOW may be suffering from the chicken and egg concept. There aren't enough people using it, so there aren't enough people answering questions. There aren't enough people answering questions because there aren't enough people using it. Since asteriskNOW is based on 1.4, it could be that people are in a wait and see period. There are a lot of people, myself included, that haven't switched to 1.4. I heavily use the chan_sccp project, and until things stabilize enough on 1.4 so that chan_sccp can stabilize on 1.4, I can't switch. I'm sure over the next 6 to 12 months more people will be moving to 1.4, and because of that, we'll see more activity with asteriskNOW. The only way it'll happen faster is if Digium hires Microsoft's marketing people to convince everyone that everyone else is using 1.4 and they should switch before getting left behind. Let's face it, you don't want to be the last person left running an outdated piece of software (for the record, I still use Windows 2000 and XP, and only have Vista on a test machine, so that marketing doesn't always work). Just hang in there and you may be one of the first pioneers using asteriskNOW, while the rest of us dinosaurs still use the cli :-) Here are my first impressions: - The Devs have spent a LOT of time on *now and seem to be doing a fantastic job. - *now is not just a GUI...it's a complete base/reference system - I like that the MOST. - *now is a great starting point for someone new (Me). - *now needs documentation! I know it's in beta, but having links to a down site, is not cool. (Sign me up for help if needed). - *now could be more geared for use as a universal tool. The default contexts and files were quickly replaced with more standard configs. - *now could be very helpful in tracking issues with links to Report a problem or search the WIKI from the app. I understand the tendency to love the CLI, but I honestly think there a place for a GUI in Asterisk. How many of us still use the mysql CLI? I can't expect my helpdesk guy to know emacs or vi just to add a user. Curiously, jc ___ Sign up now for AstriCon 2007! September 25-28th. http://www.astricon.net/ --Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com-- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users -- Lacy Moore Somewhere I wish I wasn't ___ Sign up now for AstriCon 2007! September 25-28th. http://www.astricon.net/ --Bandwidth and Colocation Provided by http://www.api-digital.com-- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
