Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
Andrew, you are right on with your final point about absurdity. Hopefully this vile top-posting will illustrate exactly why. Sorry, I couldn't resist. B. Andrew Kohlsmith wrote: On Thursday 17 June 2004 09:21, Troy Settle wrote: However, my preference is for top posting. The reason, is that in order to read my message here, you had to scroll through ~70 lines of previous discussion. Stuff that you've /already/ read since you've been following this thread. That's because you didn't trim anything. To see what I wrote to you You had less than 10 lines to look at. Please don't use absurdity to try and prove your point. Oh! Wait, you found this in an archive, so you /want/ to have the thread fully quoted so you don't have to go hunting down the references. Good, that's why I didn't trim this post. Um no, that's why the archives are threaded themselves. Attempt at reductio ad dbsurdum #2 failed. Oh, wait, the guys that are following this thread as it's being discussed would prefer that I trim out the stuff up there, in which case, I would be neither top posting, nor bottom posting. This message would be a post unto itself that wouldn't have any quoted material at all. Afterall, you've already read the referenced material. I consider trimming the quoted text and replying to the bits you keep as they occur bottom posting -- your text is FOLLOWING the relevant bits of the conversation. Inline posting is something completely different and it's even more heinous: So, the bottom line is that top-posters are lazy? [ yes, they are absolutely. Inline posters are even worse! ] I say yes, we are. We don't want to have to scroll through pages of quoted material just to get to the new stuff. [ so trim your damned posts ] That above is an example of inline posting. Some managers have a penchant for that. I say that the bottom posters are lazy. They want a bottom post so that they enter into a thread 12 messages later, and not have to read the thread 'backwards.' Read your mail to begin with, and you wouldn't have this problem, and you would actually start to appreciate the top posters, because they're making it so you don't have to scroll through ~70 lines of quoted material to get to the new stuff. That's not laziness, that is following natural language laws. I have over 25k messages in my local copy of asterisk-users. My MUA understands message threading so if people posted the One True Way (editing quoted content and replying underneath, as I am doing to you here) then there is no problem following the flow of the thread, and if I need more information I move up to the message parent and see the entire message. It's not a difficult thing to understand, and this absurdity you're spewing to try and prove your point only goes to show that your argument doesn't hold much logic. Regards, Andrew ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Lee Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 6:34 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette Kevin Walsh wrote: Steven Critchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You forgot to add in how awful it is when people post using HTML and then override font sizes or assume blue is an appropriate font color for their message. While I know some people don't like it when I turn my attention to them, if it takes me even one more button press to be able to read your mail, it isn't likely to be interesting to me to even bother helping you with your problem. Since the majority of unix users understand how each of us tweak our environment to be the most productive for us, we don't like it when you take liberties with our settings. He also forgot to mention how awful it is when people lazily top-post instead of taking the time to format their followups correctly. This is especially true when trying to follow a thread found in the archives. I fully agree with your anti-HTML comments, by the way. I think you will find that about half the people out there disagree with this sentiment (a guess based on the number of top and bottom posters I have seen) so no matter how often you ask it is not likely to change things much. Top posting is what a lot of people are very comfortable with. It also has the advantage in lists that when you step through a thread the answer to the last item is ready for you to read. So If you bottom post you make life harder for the thread reader but if you top post you make life harder for those that get a long mail out of the archives.Who should we favor? Don't ask why I am bottom posting, I have no good reason, it just so happens that I am. I don't like HTML either but a lot of people don't know they can switch it off or that it even exists (its a word processor isn't it?). Getting offended by these personal preferences just leads to that etiquette problem, the god ol flame war. Or at least heated debate that will never be won with so many advocates for each side, that the lists become quite full of top/bottom html/text arguments. Please don't bring these subjects into things it just makes people with other views upset. I'm quite content to post at the top, bottom, or inline. It really just depends on the nature of the message I'm replying to, the subject, context, and format of earlier messages in the thread. However, my preference is for top posting. The reason, is that in order to read my message here, you had to scroll through ~70 lines of previous discussion. Stuff that you've /already/ read since you've been following this thread. Oh! Wait, you found this in an archive, so you /want/ to have the thread fully quoted so you don't have to go hunting down the references. Good, that's why I didn't trim this post. Oh, wait, the guys that are following this thread as it's being discussed would prefer that I trim out the stuff up there, in which case, I would be neither top posting, nor bottom posting. This message would be a post unto itself that wouldn't have any quoted material at all. Afterall, you've already read the referenced material. So, the bottom line is that top-posters are lazy? I say yes, we are. We don't want to have to scroll through pages of quoted material just to get to the new stuff. I say that the bottom posters are lazy. They want a bottom post so that they enter into a thread 12 messages later, and not have to read the thread 'backwards.' Read your mail to begin with, and you wouldn't have this problem, and you would actually start to appreciate the top posters, because they're making it so you don't have to scroll through ~70 lines of quoted material to get to the new stuff. -- Troy Settle Pulaski Networks http://www.psknet.com 866.477.5638 ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
A: Because we read the question in the previous message. Q: Why should I post my reply above the quoted text? -- Troy Settle Pulaski Networks http://www.psknet.com 866.477.5638 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Hermann Wecke Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 2:39 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Nicholas Bachmann wrote: You might try reading http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html -- it explains why people don't like top posting. Or read this quote: A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right. Q: Why should i start my reply below the quoted text? - -- http://www.i-hate-computers.demon.co.uk/ ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
On Thu, 2004-06-17 at 09:21 -0400, Troy Settle wrote: ..snip.. However, my preference is for top posting. The reason, is that in order to read my message here, you had to scroll through ~70 lines of previous discussion. Stuff that you've /already/ read since you've been following this thread. ..snip..} Sorry to butt into this thread, but I think this is where you went wrong. There was absolutely no need to quote 70+ lines of text to say what you had to say. You're supposed to quote the relevant bits (as I did with this email), not the entire thread. Regards, Gonzalo ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
On Thursday 17 June 2004 09:21, Troy Settle wrote: However, my preference is for top posting. The reason, is that in order to read my message here, you had to scroll through ~70 lines of previous discussion. Stuff that you've /already/ read since you've been following this thread. That's because you didn't trim anything. To see what I wrote to you You had less than 10 lines to look at. Please don't use absurdity to try and prove your point. Oh! Wait, you found this in an archive, so you /want/ to have the thread fully quoted so you don't have to go hunting down the references. Good, that's why I didn't trim this post. Um no, that's why the archives are threaded themselves. Attempt at reductio ad dbsurdum #2 failed. Oh, wait, the guys that are following this thread as it's being discussed would prefer that I trim out the stuff up there, in which case, I would be neither top posting, nor bottom posting. This message would be a post unto itself that wouldn't have any quoted material at all. Afterall, you've already read the referenced material. I consider trimming the quoted text and replying to the bits you keep as they occur bottom posting -- your text is FOLLOWING the relevant bits of the conversation. Inline posting is something completely different and it's even more heinous: So, the bottom line is that top-posters are lazy? [ yes, they are absolutely. Inline posters are even worse! ] I say yes, we are. We don't want to have to scroll through pages of quoted material just to get to the new stuff. [ so trim your damned posts ] That above is an example of inline posting. Some managers have a penchant for that. I say that the bottom posters are lazy. They want a bottom post so that they enter into a thread 12 messages later, and not have to read the thread 'backwards.' Read your mail to begin with, and you wouldn't have this problem, and you would actually start to appreciate the top posters, because they're making it so you don't have to scroll through ~70 lines of quoted material to get to the new stuff. That's not laziness, that is following natural language laws. I have over 25k messages in my local copy of asterisk-users. My MUA understands message threading so if people posted the One True Way (editing quoted content and replying underneath, as I am doing to you here) then there is no problem following the flow of the thread, and if I need more information I move up to the message parent and see the entire message. It's not a difficult thing to understand, and this absurdity you're spewing to try and prove your point only goes to show that your argument doesn't hold much logic. Regards, Andrew ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
-Original Message- From: Gonzalo Servat Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 9:34 AM Sorry to butt into this thread, but I think this is where you went wrong. There was absolutely no need to quote 70+ lines of text to say what you had to say. You're supposed to quote the relevant bits (as I did with this email), not the entire thread. It's an open mailing list, you're not butting in at all. I agree with you completely, however, there is this great tool called 'exageration' that is sometimes used to make a point when a real-world example would be too small to be perceived as signifigant. For those nay-sayers, please look at my post carefully. I bottom posted, keeping the existing style, and while I left the quoted material untrimmed, I also mentioned the other extreme, which is to completely exclude any quoted material at all. The bottom line of this issue is that everyone has their preferences, and no amount of crying and whining will cause the other side to comply with your wishes. There are valid reasons for both posting styles, live with it. Those who continue to whine and cry about top posting need to be larted with a vengence. It's like the last cry of those who lost the vi-vs-emacs debate. Just because you prefer one over the other doesn't make everyone else 'wrong.' IMO, the top-vs-bottom topic really needs to be classified right along side with the RH-vs-Debian, red-vs-blue, unix-vs-windows, ford-vs-chevy, linux-vs-bsd, and other similar cases of personal preferences. The is no winner, there never will be a winner. BTW, for those of you who are curious, I too dispise HTML formatted email in a mailing list environment. I also dislike those who flagrantly disregard existing styles within a thread (but, it's ok if different threads have different styles). I also have very low regard for those among us who would hijack a thread. I don't use a threaded mail reader myself (sucks to be me), but when browsing archives by thread, it's really annoying to find questions about personal lubricant in the middle of a heated debate about top-vs-bottom. Of course, sometimes a thread will mutate naturally, at which point, it may be appropriate to change the subject (which I'm not going to do, since I'm too damned lazy. Oh, for those curious, my single, biggest beef with mailing lists, is the inclusion of a list tag in the Subject: line. I know it's Asterisk-Users, because it says so in the To: line. It also says so in the List-ID: and Sender: lines. -- Troy Settle Pulaski Networks http://www.psknet.com 866.477.5638 ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
What is this? Day Three? What is the standing record on this list for flame wars? You guys need to do a sanity check. These posts are nothing more than SPAM and Ive just added to it. I feel so dirty now. [EMAIL PROTECTED] 6/17/2004 9:08:09 AM -Original Message- From: Gonzalo Servat Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 9:34 AM Sorry to butt into this thread, but I think this is where you went wrong. There was absolutely no need to quote 70+ lines of text to say what you had to say. You're supposed to quote the relevant bits (as I did with this email), not the entire thread. It's an open mailing list, you're not butting in at all. I agree with you completely, however, there is this great tool called 'exageration' that is sometimes used to make a point when a real-world example would be too small to be perceived as signifigant. For those nay-sayers, please look at my post carefully. I bottom posted, keeping the existing style, and while I left the quoted material untrimmed, I also mentioned the other extreme, which is to completely exclude any quoted material at all. The bottom line of this issue is that everyone has their preferences, and no amount of crying and whining will cause the other side to comply with your wishes. There are valid reasons for both posting styles, live with it. Those who continue to whine and cry about top posting need to be larted with a vengence. It's like the last cry of those who lost the vi-vs-emacs debate. Just because you prefer one over the other doesn't make everyone else 'wrong.' IMO, the top-vs-bottom topic really needs to be classified right along side with the RH-vs-Debian, red-vs-blue, unix-vs-windows, ford-vs-chevy, linux-vs-bsd, and other similar cases of personal preferences. The is no winner, there never will be a winner. BTW, for those of you who are curious, I too dispise HTML formatted email in a mailing list environment. I also dislike those who flagrantly disregard existing styles within a thread (but, it's ok if different threads have different styles). I also have very low regard for those among us who would hijack a thread. I don't use a threaded mail reader myself (sucks to be me), but when browsing archives by thread, it's really annoying to find questions about personal lubricant in the middle of a heated debate about top-vs-bottom. Of course, sometimes a thread will mutate naturally, at which point, it may be appropriate to change the subject (which I'm not going to do, since I'm too damned lazy. Oh, for those curious, my single, biggest beef with mailing lists, is the inclusion of a list tag in the Subject: line. I know it's Asterisk-Users, because it says so in the To: line. It also says so in the List-ID: and Sender: lines. -- Troy Settle Pulaski Networks http://www.psknet.com 866.477.5638 ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
Being new to this list i must tread carefully but Who cares where the answers are so long as they are helpful and to the point. If i ask a question it's just nice to get a good clear and concise answer. Makes no odds to me where the answer is in the reply. Simon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Andrew Kohlsmith Sent: 17 June 2004 14:41 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette On Thursday 17 June 2004 09:21, Troy Settle wrote: However, my preference is for top posting. The reason, is that in order to read my message here, you had to scroll through ~70 lines of previous discussion. Stuff that you've /already/ read since you've been following this thread. That's because you didn't trim anything. To see what I wrote to you You had less than 10 lines to look at. Please don't use absurdity to try and prove your point. Oh! Wait, you found this in an archive, so you /want/ to have the thread fully quoted so you don't have to go hunting down the references. Good, that's why I didn't trim this post. Um no, that's why the archives are threaded themselves. Attempt at reductio ad dbsurdum #2 failed. Oh, wait, the guys that are following this thread as it's being discussed would prefer that I trim out the stuff up there, in which case, I would be neither top posting, nor bottom posting. This message would be a post unto itself that wouldn't have any quoted material at all. Afterall, you've already read the referenced material. I consider trimming the quoted text and replying to the bits you keep as they occur bottom posting -- your text is FOLLOWING the relevant bits of the conversation. Inline posting is something completely different and it's even more heinous: So, the bottom line is that top-posters are lazy? [ yes, they are absolutely. Inline posters are even worse! ] I say yes, we are. We don't want to have to scroll through pages of quoted material just to get to the new stuff. [ so trim your damned posts ] That above is an example of inline posting. Some managers have a penchant for that. I say that the bottom posters are lazy. They want a bottom post so that they enter into a thread 12 messages later, and not have to read the thread 'backwards.' Read your mail to begin with, and you wouldn't have this problem, and you would actually start to appreciate the top posters, because they're making it so you don't have to scroll through ~70 lines of quoted material to get to the new stuff. That's not laziness, that is following natural language laws. I have over 25k messages in my local copy of asterisk-users. My MUA understands message threading so if people posted the One True Way (editing quoted content and replying underneath, as I am doing to you here) then there is no problem following the flow of the thread, and if I need more information I move up to the message parent and see the entire message. It's not a difficult thing to understand, and this absurdity you're spewing to try and prove your point only goes to show that your argument doesn't hold much logic. Regards, Andrew ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
On Thu, 2004-06-17 at 09:23, Troy Settle wrote: A: Because we read the question in the previous message. Q: Why should I post my reply above the quoted text? You are assuming that everyone subscribed to the list is reading you particular thread. If they're not, but are mostly just skimming through and pausing to read when something looks interesting, top posting makes it hard to understand what the discussion is about. In any case, I'm not ramming this down anyone's throat. If you don't want to top post, then don't. But, I think that after everything is weighed (e.g. people finding threads with top posts on Google 10 years later), top posting would come out the loser. Alrighty, that's enough for me! Two posts about this is all I'm contributing. Kanwar Systems Aligned Inc. www.systemsaligned.com ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
On Thursday 17 June 2004 10:21, Simon wrote: If i ask a question it's just nice to get a good clear and concise answer. Makes no odds to me where the answer is in the reply. Precisely -- this is what this mini flame thread is all about. Many of us believe that top posting, not trimming, etc. does NOT provide a clear and concise answer. I tend to agree -- if the top-poster clears away all the crap that 99% of top posters DO NOT clear away, 75% of my beef with top posting would vanish. The unfortunate case is that top posters seem to be inherently lazy, as is evidenced by 99% of them NOT trimming anything in their replies. -A. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
On Tuesday 15 June 2004 20:45, Aaron J. Angel wrote: And for those of you who don't like HTML email with different fonts or colors, etc., there's this thing called CSS . And for the rest of us, there's /dev/null which is where html email belongs. If you expect everyone else to use a client that bottom-posts, then I expect you to use an HTML-capable email client that supports CSS for accessibility. Expect away. I like many other won't have to read it 'cos it never gets as far as the inbox. Yes, I hear your reply, and you're right, switching clients is not an answer for everyone. Deal with it. Yes, switching clients isn't even an option in some situations. However configuring a client correctly is always an option. Jon ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
Kevin Walsh mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] scribbled on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 2:32 PM: If you use Microsoft Outlook then you might find this utility interesting: http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/ Just a note for those using Word as their editor (an option you can configure from the Outlook Options/Mail Format menu:) This plug-in will not work when using Word as your editor. Word does not provide any quoting besides indentation. I use Outlook here at work (don't have a choice) and had to change my editor back to Outlook in order to get this working right. I personally prefer top-posting for most things when following a thread as I can open the new message and the most recent comments are right at the top. If I need a refresher, I can read down further. It is similar to the way newspaper articles are written, the most relevant information at the top. On the flip side, reading archived messages are a bigger pain when top-posted, so I can definitely understand why some people complain. Jeremy Disclaimer: 16/6/2004 MPC Computers is providing the following information in compliance with federal regulations: MPC Computers, LLC 906 E. Karcher Road Nampa, Idaho 83687 1-888-224-4247 http://www.mpccorp.com If you wish to unsubscribe to all e-mail communications with MPC, please click on the link below. http://www.mpccorp.com/email/unsubscribe.html ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
I know the horse is dead, but I still want to get a couple of hits in. I've been using the usenet/internet since the early 90s, and I've had my share of newsreaders, mailclients, etc. I've been active on the web with my own sites since 94/95. Yet... Gasp!... I PREFER TOP-POSTING (and I will continue to do so). To address the points brought up on the page you linked: 1. Just because something is proper (n)etiquette doesn't make it any better. You're supposed to drink white wine with poultry, but I still prefer a coke with my Chicken McNuggets. 2. What makes Forte Agent a good newsreader? Would that be opinion, or independently researched and verified fact. I remember using Forte (Free)Agent back in 95 or 96, and it was a crappy application that would crash at least once which each session. That aside, I don't use signatures -- they're a waste of bandwidth. 3. Top-Posting only makes posts incomprehensible to those readers with short attention span and/or Alzheimer's. I usually follow my mailing lists, and if I'm reading a reply that I don't understand, I quickly scroll down the preferably top-posted message and read the context. 4. Server space being oh-so-expensive these days, that's a big concern. Not. But I do agree that people should at least zap the other posters' signatures (or maybe they shouldn't be included in the first place?) and the list-signature. 5. Hmm.. Top-posting makes bottom-posting harder? Then don't bottom-post! Bottom-posting makes READING a mailing list more difficult than it needs to be, and with ONE person posting and 8,000-10,000 people READING the messages, that should be the main concern. 6. Or if you like, you can drop your good newsreader and start conforming to the MS world. I don't think the preferences of some should dictate the software choice of the majority. I'm not saying I love Outlook, but it's served me more-or-less well for 7 or 8 years. I can not afford to drop it and lose years worth of correspondence. I also won't run a secondary mail-reader just to participate in discussions about netiquette. 7. Same pointless reasoning as in point 3. If you have SOME semblence of short- or mid-term memory, you'll pick up right where you left of. No scrolling required, unless you completely forgot everything you read in the last 6-12 hours. I only read about 1/2 the messages in the asterisk list by subject (why read about PRI when only have SIP and POTS?), and of the discussions that I follow, I have to scroll down only one in every ten -- and most of those are the bottom-posted ones. 8. Oooh, now I'm scared -- flames. Way to ignore completely what I might have to contribute because I post incorrectly. And Jesus was ostracized because He healed on the Sabbath. Well, I think I explained my preference for top-posting well enough. My asterisk-messages all go into the same folder in my OUTLOOK mail reader, and the top 1/3 of the screen holds a message list, while the bottom 2/3 have a message preview. I can click through messages one-by-one, and usually only need to pick up the mouse when someone decided to bottom-post. Most of the time, I skip those messages. I know I won't -- and don't care to -- persuade those who have been told for years they should bottom-post. Heck, maybe you even have valid reasons (which I haven't seen yet). And maybe you look at my list of reasons they same way I look at yours: with complete and utter perplexion. So, maybe we can just agree to disagree. (PS: You're welcome for not having to scroll to the bottom to start reading this message :) -Original Message- From: Nicholas Bachmann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 8:13 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette Holger Schurig wrote: Before hanging up, there should be an extension reminding everyone that top posting is super duper wrong and oh so annoying. Must I use the Wiki or Google to find out what top posting is? :-) You might try reading http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html -- it explains why people don't like top posting. Nick ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Nicholas Bachmann wrote: You might try reading http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html -- it explains why people don't like top posting. Or read this quote: A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right. Q: Why should i start my reply below the quoted text? - -- http://www.i-hate-computers.demon.co.uk/ ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
Jay Milk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been using the usenet/internet since the early 90s, and I've had my share of newsreaders, mailclients, etc. I've been active on the web with my own sites since 94/95. Yet... Gasp!... I PREFER TOP-POSTING (and I will continue to do so). Perhaps you're just lazy. If you explained why having your own websites was relevant to email netiquette then I might understand. You didn't post your reply in context, so I'll never know. What's that? You expect me to search for the context hidden within your lazily-quoted and un-trimmed article. Not a chance. -- _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ K e v i n W a l s h _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/_/[EMAIL PROTECTED] _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
Why is this conversation still taking place? It's a matter of personal preference and I think it should be dropped.. If you don't like someone's post, then don't read it. Problem solved. I won't be replying to this topic again.. lets just drop it. -Jon -Original Message- Jay Milk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been using the usenet/internet since the early 90s, and I've had my share of newsreaders, mailclients, etc. I've been active on the web with my own sites since 94/95. Yet... Gasp!... I PREFER TOP-POSTING (and I will continue to do so). Perhaps you're just lazy. If you explained why having your own websites was relevant to email netiquette then I might understand. You didn't post your reply in context, so I'll never know. What's that? You expect me to search for the context hidden within your lazily-quoted and un-trimmed article. Not a chance. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
Before hanging up, there should be an extension reminding everyone that top posting is super duper wrong and oh so annoying. Must I use the Wiki or Google to find out what top posting is? :-) ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
Its a matter of personal preference Holger, most people dont care, but the ones who do whine about it a lot and can read it fine just as well. This is a top post. its up top of the msg its posted about. It gives some the impression youre too lazy to trim the stuff below it. While trimming is a good idea for brevity, (as some of us have email quotas..ahem) I'm as guilty as the next person when I forget to trim. We all do from time to time. At 02:46 6/15/2004, you wrote: Before hanging up, there should be an extension reminding everyone that top posting is super duper wrong and oh so annoying. Must I use the Wiki or Google to find out what top posting is? :-) ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
Steven Critchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You forgot to add in how awful it is when people post using HTML and then override font sizes or assume blue is an appropriate font color for their message. While I know some people don't like it when I turn my attention to them, if it takes me even one more button press to be able to read your mail, it isn't likely to be interesting to me to even bother helping you with your problem. Since the majority of unix users understand how each of us tweak our environment to be the most productive for us, we don't like it when you take liberties with our settings. He also forgot to mention how awful it is when people lazily top-post instead of taking the time to format their followups correctly. This is especially true when trying to follow a thread found in the archives. I fully agree with your anti-HTML comments, by the way. -- _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ K e v i n W a l s h _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/_/[EMAIL PROTECTED] _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
Kevin Walsh wrote: Steven Critchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You forgot to add in how awful it is when people post using HTML and then override font sizes or assume blue is an appropriate font color for their message. While I know some people don't like it when I turn my attention to them, if it takes me even one more button press to be able to read your mail, it isn't likely to be interesting to me to even bother helping you with your problem. Since the majority of unix users understand how each of us tweak our environment to be the most productive for us, we don't like it when you take liberties with our settings. He also forgot to mention how awful it is when people lazily top-post instead of taking the time to format their followups correctly. This is especially true when trying to follow a thread found in the archives. I fully agree with your anti-HTML comments, by the way. I think you will find that about half the people out there disagree with this sentiment (a guess based on the number of top and bottom posters I have seen) so no matter how often you ask it is not likely to change things much. Top posting is what a lot of people are very comfortable with. It also has the advantage in lists that when you step through a thread the answer to the last item is ready for you to read. So If you bottom post you make life harder for the thread reader but if you top post you make life harder for those that get a long mail out of the archives.Who should we favor? Don't ask why I am bottom posting, I have no good reason, it just so happens that I am. I don't like HTML either but a lot of people don't know they can switch it off or that it even exists (its a word processor isn't it?). Getting offended by these personal preferences just leads to that etiquette problem, the god ol flame war. Or at least heated debate that will never be won with so many advocates for each side, that the lists become quite full of top/bottom html/text arguments. Please don't bring these subjects into things it just makes people with other views upset. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
And didn't the original poster of this thread state rather forcefully that this list is for * issues, not to be hijacked - which is exactly what is happening based on comments/demands made by the original poster that were not on the topic of * Simon Brown -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Lee Sent: Tuesday, 15 June 2004 20:34 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette Kevin Walsh wrote: Steven Critchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You forgot to add in how awful it is when people post using HTML and then override font sizes or assume blue is an appropriate font color for their message. While I know some people don't like it when I turn my attention to them, if it takes me even one more button press to be able to read your mail, it isn't likely to be interesting to me to even bother helping you with your problem. Since the majority of unix users understand how each of us tweak our environment to be the most productive for us, we don't like it when you take liberties with our settings. He also forgot to mention how awful it is when people lazily top-post instead of taking the time to format their followups correctly. This is especially true when trying to follow a thread found in the archives. I fully agree with your anti-HTML comments, by the way. I think you will find that about half the people out there disagree with this sentiment (a guess based on the number of top and bottom posters I have seen) so no matter how often you ask it is not likely to change things much. Top posting is what a lot of people are very comfortable with. It also has the advantage in lists that when you step through a thread the answer to the last item is ready for you to read. So If you bottom post you make life harder for the thread reader but if you top post you make life harder for those that get a long mail out of the archives.Who should we favor? Don't ask why I am bottom posting, I have no good reason, it just so happens that I am. I don't like HTML either but a lot of people don't know they can switch it off or that it even exists (its a word processor isn't it?). Getting offended by these personal preferences just leads to that etiquette problem, the god ol flame war. Or at least heated debate that will never be won with so many advocates for each side, that the lists become quite full of top/bottom html/text arguments. Please don't bring these subjects into things it just makes people with other views upset. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
On Tuesday 15 June 2004 06:34, Chris Lee wrote: Top posting is what a lot of people are very comfortable with. It also has the advantage in lists that when you step through a thread the answer to the last item is ready for you to read. I disagree completely, and I am a threaded reader. The *PROPER* way to write email replies is to post comments inline, stripping out everything not needed in the email you're replying to, such as I am doing right now. People who leave the entire message they've replied to, headers, footers and inane comments intact for 16 messages deep are wasting resources, no matter how small. It takes more effort to propery trim and format email replies this way but IMO it puts your responses in context and keeps the email concise, no matter how deep the thread. I don't like HTML either but a lot of people don't know they can switch it off or that it even exists (its a word processor isn't it?). True, it's a problem with MUAs in general. Don't even get me started on the WINMAIL.DAT-obsessed. :-) Please don't bring these subjects into things it just makes people with other views upset. Agreed to a point, but I also believe that polite society finds a common ground and adheres to it for the good of the society. :-) -A. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
On Monday 14 June 2004 23:03, twisted wrote: Friends, Romans, Countrymen, lend me your ears! This reminds me of the Robin Hood, Men in Tights scene where Robin of Loxley says the same and all the villagers throw ears at him. That's disgusting! And now, for the Asterisk-Users dial plan: You forgot one: exten = s,8,When starting a new discussion, DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT hit the Reply button, change the subject, erase the body and start a new subject! This places your question in the middle of an ongoing thread. You probably don't notice this becuase your mail reader does not support threading but for the vast majority of us it buries your question in the middle of an unrelated string of messages and actually PREVENTS us from noticing your question since we may not be interested in the rest of the thread. Please, for God's Sake, click on the email address for the list, save yourself a lot of erasing and give your question the new thread smell it deserves! exten = s,9,Goto(Ettiquette,s,1) Regards, Andrew ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
On Tue, 2004-06-15 at 12:29, Simon Brown wrote: And didn't the original poster of this thread state rather forcefully that this list is for * issues, not to be hijacked - which is exactly what is happening based on comments/demands made by the original poster that were not on the topic of * Doesn't matter. He can as well learn, as anybody else here. Stop throwing mud and keep to the point = * Kind regards, Martin List-Petersen martin (at) list (dash) petersen (dot) net ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
LIFO Last In First Out - Original Message - From: tmpm [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 4:30 AM Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette Its a matter of personal preference Holger, most people dont care, but the ones who do whine about it a lot and can read it fine just as well. This is a top post. its up top of the msg its posted about. It gives some the impression youre too lazy to trim the stuff below it. While trimming is a good idea for brevity, (as some of us have email quotas..ahem) I'm as guilty as the next person when I forget to trim. We all do from time to time. At 02:46 6/15/2004, you wrote: Before hanging up, there should be an extension reminding everyone that top posting is super duper wrong and oh so annoying. Must I use the Wiki or Google to find out what top posting is? :-) ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
I hate asci signatures that are hard to read, stop eating up my bits :p - Original Message - From: Kevin Walsh [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 6:07 AM Subject: RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette Steven Critchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You forgot to add in how awful it is when people post using HTML and then override font sizes or assume blue is an appropriate font color for their message. While I know some people don't like it when I turn my attention to them, if it takes me even one more button press to be able to read your mail, it isn't likely to be interesting to me to even bother helping you with your problem. Since the majority of unix users understand how each of us tweak our environment to be the most productive for us, we don't like it when you take liberties with our settings. He also forgot to mention how awful it is when people lazily top-post instead of taking the time to format their followups correctly. This is especially true when trying to follow a thread found in the archives. I fully agree with your anti-HTML comments, by the way. -- _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ K e v i n W a l s h _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/_/[EMAIL PROTECTED] _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
Isn't it odd as hell the same people that complain about html are also some of the same people that use special mail readers to emulate news readers? Both seem to want to influence the 8,000 list members their tools are the only one's in existence and we better all format our list postings to make their tool happy. NOT! Guess my 1996 reader must be a little odd; it handles top bottom postings along with html without complaining a bit. Steven Critchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You forgot to add in how awful it is when people post using HTML and then override font sizes or assume blue is an appropriate font color for their message. While I know some people don't like it when I turn my attention to them, if it takes me even one more button press to be able to read your mail, it isn't likely to be interesting to me to even bother helping you with your problem. Since the majority of unix users understand how each of us tweak our environment to be the most productive for us, we don't like it when you take liberties with our settings. He also forgot to mention how awful it is when people lazily top-post instead of taking the time to format their followups correctly. This is especially true when trying to follow a thread found in the archives. I fully agree with your anti-HTML comments, by the way. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
On Tue, Jun 15, 2004 at 07:35:31AM -0600, Rich Adamson said: Isn't it odd as hell the same people that complain about html are also some of the same people that use special mail readers to emulate news readers? Both seem to want to influence the 8,000 list members their tools are the only one's in existence and we better all format our list postings to make their tool happy. NOT! There are several good reasons HTML is bad on mailing lists, and font issues are among the least important IMO. First, text is the lowest common denominator. Every mail client supports it. Second, HTML takes more disk / bandwidth. Remember: this IS exploded to over 8000 members - HTML is usually twice as large, and generally more like 3 or 4 times due to the fact that most MUA's attach both an HTML and plain text version. Horrible. This increases delays in delivering each message which increases the chance of multiple people responding to the same message with the same answer which makes the traffic problem even worse (of course using a braid-dead email client that can't handle threading is a greater contributer to this problem.) Third, it messes up archives and digests. I could go on, but this issue has been rehashed many times elsewhere. Google. Some lists are taking proactive measures to handle this. They configure the software to reject all attachments and HTML, which is a good thing IMNSHO. Steven Critchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You forgot to add in how awful it is when people post using HTML and then override font sizes or assume blue is an appropriate font color for their message. He also forgot to mention how awful it is when people lazily top-post instead of taking the time to format their followups correctly. This is especially true when trying to follow a thread found in the archives. I fully agree with your anti-HTML comments, by the way. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
On Tue, 2004-06-15 at 08:35, Rich Adamson wrote: Isn't it odd as hell the same people that complain about html are also some of the same people that use special mail readers to emulate news readers? Both seem to want to influence the 8,000 list members their tools are the only one's in existence and we better all format our list postings to make their tool happy. NOT! Guess my 1996 reader must be a little odd; it handles top bottom postings along with html without complaining a bit. Most all mail readers these days support HTML email. The difference though is when one uses a mail reader that renders the HTML and the HTML is written by someone who has no clue how the readers machine is set up. I use Evolution for my mail reading when on a machine with a SMTP gateway, I use mutt elsewise. When using Evolution, I can get through my mail faster, but if a person chooses a blue font, it is difficult to read and therefore not worth my time to tell evolution to convert to plain text to fix the users gaff. Also, when someone chooses what font and size I should be reading mail in, is just as bad since most Microcrap clients choose to shrink the size about 2 sizes smaller than my normal which is set at the smallest I can read at a decent speed. Since I stare at code all day, this is fairly small so I can see as much of the code at once as possible. Steven Critchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You forgot to add in how awful it is when people post using HTML and then override font sizes or assume blue is an appropriate font color for their message. While I know some people don't like it when I turn my attention to them, if it takes me even one more button press to be able to read your mail, it isn't likely to be interesting to me to even bother helping you with your problem. Since the majority of unix users understand how each of us tweak our environment to be the most productive for us, we don't like it when you take liberties with our settings. He also forgot to mention how awful it is when people lazily top-post instead of taking the time to format their followups correctly. This is especially true when trying to follow a thread found in the archives. I fully agree with your anti-HTML comments, by the way. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users -- Steven Critchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
Simon Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And didn't the original poster of this thread state rather forcefully that this list is for * issues, not to be hijacked - which is exactly what is happening based on comments/demands made by the original poster that were not on the topic of * You probably missed the subject of this thread which, of course, was set by the original poster. -- _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ K e v i n W a l s h _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/_/[EMAIL PROTECTED] _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
M3 Freak wrote: Before hanging up, there should be an extension reminding everyone that top posting is super duper wrong and oh so annoying. I used to top post, but now I understand why it's frowned upon. It should be avoided at all costs. Unfortunately, some of us just can't help it. Some of us use this nifty (read: *$#[EMAIL PROTECTED]) program called Outlook (especially in the workplace), made by a company that doesn't care for common email ettiquete, let alone user preference. I happen to be one of those persons (although it's not a matter of the company's IT decisions; I just don't see how it is beneficial to use multiple emailers for the sake of a mailing list. And for those that *are* subscribed at the workplace, note that it took a bit of effort (too much to write a simple message like this, IMO) to produce a properly bottom posted message like this (that is, if you consider the attribution without date proper, which would require more copying, pasting, and lead to further obfuscation). And for those of you who don't like HTML email with different fonts or colors, etc., there's this thing called CSS. If you expect everyone else to use a client that bottom-posts, then I expect you to use an HTML-capable email client that supports CSS for accessibility. Yes, I hear your reply, and you're right, switching clients is not an answer for everyone. Deal with it. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
Aaron J. Angel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: M3 Freak wrote: Before hanging up, there should be an extension reminding everyone that top posting is super duper wrong and oh so annoying. I used to top post, but now I understand why it's frowned upon. It should be avoided at all costs. Unfortunately, some of us just can't help it. Some of us use this nifty (read: *$#[EMAIL PROTECTED]) program called Outlook (especially in the workplace), made by a company that doesn't care for common email ettiquete, let alone user preference. I happen to be one of those persons (although it's not a matter of the company's IT decisions; I just don't see how it is beneficial to use multiple emailers for the sake of a mailing list. And for those that *are* subscribed at the workplace, note that it took a bit of effort (too much to write a simple message like this, IMO) to produce a properly bottom posted message like this (that is, if you consider the attribution without date proper, which would require more copying, pasting, and lead to further obfuscation). If you use Microsoft Outlook then you might find this utility interesting: http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/ -- _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/_/ _/ K e v i n W a l s h _/ _/_/ _/ _/ _/_/ _/_/[EMAIL PROTECTED] _/ _/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/ ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
Isn't it odd as hell the same people that complain about html are also some of the same people that use special mail readers to emulate news readers? Both seem to want to influence the 8,000 list members their tools are the only one's in existence and we better all format our list postings to make their tool happy. NOT! Guess my 1996 reader must be a little odd; it handles top bottom postings along with html without complaining a bit. Most all mail readers these days support HTML email. The difference though is when one uses a mail reader that renders the HTML and the HTML is written by someone who has no clue how the readers machine is set up. I use Evolution for my mail reading when on a machine with a SMTP gateway, I use mutt elsewise. When using Evolution, I can get through my mail faster, but if a person chooses a blue font, it is difficult to read and therefore not worth my time to tell evolution to convert to plain text to fix the users gaff. Also, when someone chooses what font and size I should be reading mail in, is just as bad since most Microcrap clients choose to shrink the size about 2 sizes smaller than my normal which is set at the smallest I can read at a decent speed. Since I stare at code all day, this is fairly small so I can see as much of the code at once as possible. For all of us old-timers that have been here a while, Steve, you did a very admiral thing in not responding to the root issue. Thanks!! Top vs Bottom is 99% irrelevant except to a few, and although none of us like html, its less objectionable then the top/bottom complaints from the few. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
Sorry for the formatting everyone.. my mailer blows chunks... it looked ok before I sent it ;) On Mon, 2004-06-14 at 22:03, twisted wrote: Friends, Romans, Countrymen, lend me your ears! Or, in this case, your eyes. It has become a problem I've noticed over and over again, that we tend to think the mailing list is some sort of forum, used to post whatever your hearts desire. This list, not unlike any other mailing list, has a purpose. A focus if you will. Hopefully this 'document' will point out some key things we need to change to help this list remain friendly and helpful, not to mention, a vital asset to the Asterisk community. And now, for the Asterisk-Users dial plan: [Etiquette] Exten = s,1, Posts to the Asterisk-Users list should be concise, and on-topic. Remember, the topic is ASTERISK, not Provider X doesn't answer email, or Provider Y doesn't have rates listed on their website. Gripes of this nature, and discussion of businesses relating to Asterisk should be handled on the Asterisk-Biz list, or in the case ofcustomer service, with the person/provider in question. Exten = s,2, Everyone was new at some point. Let's try to keep our cool with new members of the asterisk community. While yes, there needs to be some research done before asking questions, Let's point them in the right direction, and do so politely. A general rule of thumb to use is to reply to 'newbie' questions as if the person asking the question was a guest in your home. Exten = s,3, Since there are lot of users who deal with the community from the workplace, let's watch our language on the list. Not to be a sort of cyber-nanny, but most workplace ethics frown deeply on vulgarity in *ANY* form. Exten = s,4, Keep flames, criticism, and cruelty to yourself. If you don't like the way a question has been answered, simply post an alternative method. No need to degrade someone or their methods simply because you do not agree. Exten = s,5, If you have found a bug, feel free to discuss it here to confirm the issue, but remember, if you want action, you will need to post it to the bug tracker at http://bugs.digium.com, and be available for furthertesting if necessary. Also, to keep non-bugs out of the tracker, try to find someone on #asterisk-bugs on IRC before posting the bug to confirm it. Exten = s,6, If you find something useful to the community, and it directly relates to Asterisk, share it! Feel free to post here or on the Wiki (http://www.voip-info.org/Wiki-Asterisk). Exten = s,7, Not everyone will abide by the etiquette, and there's nothing we can do about that; But to avoid a flare-up, try not to take it personally, or better yet, simply don't respond to it. Exten = s,8,Goto(Etiquette,s,1) If we can all agree on this, this list will continue to be a useful tool for the community. Please note - this was not specific to anyone, nor should it be taken personally by anyone. This is just a guideline to keeping the peace, and increase our productivity as a community. Remember: We are a COMMUNITY. Thank you for your time, and please, if you must flame me for this, do it off-list. --- with our deepest love, twisted bkw Exten = h,1,HangUp() ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users -- --- Josh Roberson Indigent Networks [EMAIL PROTECTED] 877.677.9647 - 615.724.0402 ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
You forgot to add in how awful it is when people post using HTML and then override font sizes or assume blue is an appropriate font color for their message. While I know some people don't like it when I turn my attention to them, if it takes me even one more button press to be able to read your mail, it isn't likely to be interesting to me to even bother helping you with your problem. Since the majority of unix users understand how each of us tweak our environment to be the most productive for us, we don't like it when you take liberties with our settings. On Mon, 2004-06-14 at 22:03, twisted wrote: Friends, Romans, Countrymen, lend me your ears! Or, in this case, your eyes. It has become a problem I've noticed over and over again, that we tend to think the mailing list is some sort of forum, used to post whatever your hearts desire. This list, not unlike any other mailing list, has a purpose. A focus if you will. Hopefully this 'document' will point out some key things we need to change to help this list remain friendly and helpful, not to mention, a vital asset to the Asterisk community. And now, for the Asterisk-Users dial plan: [Etiquette] Exten = s,1, Posts to the Asterisk-Users list should be concise, and on-topic. Remember, the topic is ASTERISK, not Provider X doesn't answer email, or Provider Y doesn't have rates listed on their website. Gripes of this nature, and discussion of businesses relating to Asterisk should be handled on the Asterisk-Biz list, or in the case ofcustomer service, with the person/provider in question. Exten = s,2, Everyone was new at some point. Let's try to keep our cool with new members of the asterisk community. While yes, there needs to be some research done before asking questions, Let's point them in the right direction, and do so politely. A general rule of thumb to use is to reply to 'newbie' questions as if the person asking the question was a guest in your home. Exten = s,3, Since there are lot of users who deal with the community from the workplace, let's watch our language on the list. Not to be a sort of cyber-nanny, but most workplace ethics frown deeply on vulgarity in *ANY* form. Exten = s,4, Keep flames, criticism, and cruelty to yourself. If you don't like the way a question has been answered, simply post an alternative method. No need to degrade someone or their methods simply because you do not agree. Exten = s,5, If you have found a bug, feel free to discuss it here to confirm the issue, but remember, if you want action, you will need to post it to the bug tracker at http://bugs.digium.com, and be available for furthertesting if necessary. Also, to keep non-bugs out of the tracker, try to find someone on #asterisk-bugs on IRC before posting the bug to confirm it. Exten = s,6, If you find something useful to the community, and it directly relates to Asterisk, share it! Feel free to post here or on the Wiki (http://www.voip-info.org/Wiki-Asterisk). Exten = s,7, Not everyone will abide by the etiquette, and there's nothing we can do about that; But to avoid a flare-up, try not to take it personally, or better yet, simply don't respond to it. Exten = s,8,Goto(Etiquette,s,1) If we can all agree on this, this list will continue to be a useful tool for the community. Please note - this was not specific to anyone, nor should it be taken personally by anyone. This is just a guideline to keeping the peace, and increase our productivity as a community. Remember: We are a COMMUNITY. Thank you for your time, and please, if you must flame me for this, do it off-list. --- with our deepest love, twisted bkw Exten = h,1,HangUp() ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users -- Steven Critchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
On Mon, 2004-06-14 at 23:03, twisted wrote: [snip] And now, for the Asterisk-Users dial plan: [snip] Before hanging up, there should be an extension reminding everyone that top posting is super duper wrong and oh so annoying. I used to top post, but now I understand why it's frowned upon. It should be avoided at all costs. Please, everyone, stop top posting. And, for people that don't top post, please cut out the sections of the message that aren't required. There's usually no need to include an entire message when replying in a thread. Anyway, that's my two cents. Kanwar Systems Aligned Inc. www.systemsaligned.com ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
