Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Brian Capouch]

Andrew, you are right on with your final point about absurdity.
Hopefully this vile top-posting will illustrate exactly why.
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
B.
Andrew Kohlsmith wrote:
On Thursday 17 June 2004 09:21, Troy Settle wrote:
However, my preference is for top posting.  The reason, is that in order to
read my message here, you had to scroll through ~70 lines of previous
discussion.  Stuff that you've /already/ read since you've been following
this thread.

That's because you didn't trim anything.  To see what I wrote to you You had 
less than 10 lines to look at.  Please don't use absurdity to try and prove 
your point.


Oh!  Wait, you found this in an archive, so you /want/ to have the thread
fully quoted so you don't have to go hunting down the references.  Good,
that's why I didn't trim this post.

Um no, that's why the archives are threaded themselves.  Attempt at reductio 
ad dbsurdum #2 failed.


Oh, wait, the guys that are following this thread as it's being discussed
would prefer that I trim out the stuff up there, in which case, I would be
neither top posting, nor bottom posting.  This message would be a post unto
itself that wouldn't have any quoted material at all.  Afterall, you've
already read the referenced material.

I consider trimming the quoted text and replying to the bits you keep as they 
occur bottom posting -- your text is FOLLOWING the relevant bits of the 
conversation.

Inline posting is something completely different and it's even more heinous:

So, the bottom line is that top-posters are lazy?  [ yes, they are 
absolutely.  Inline posters are even worse! ] I say yes, we are.  We
don't want to have to scroll through pages of quoted material just to get
to the new stuff.  [ so trim your damned posts ]

That above is an example of inline posting.  Some managers have a penchant for 
that.


I say that the bottom posters are lazy.  They want a bottom post so that
they enter into a thread 12 messages later, and not have to read the thread
'backwards.'  Read your mail to begin with, and you wouldn't have this
problem, and you would actually start to appreciate the top posters,
because they're making it so you don't have to scroll through ~70 lines of
quoted material to get to the new stuff.

That's not laziness, that is following natural language laws.  I have over 25k 
messages in my local copy of asterisk-users.  My MUA understands message 
threading so if people posted the One True Way (editing quoted content and 
replying underneath, as I am doing to you here) then there is no problem 
following the flow of the thread, and if I need more information I move up to 
the message parent and see the entire message.

It's not a difficult thing to understand, and this absurdity you're spewing to 
try and prove your point only goes to show that your argument doesn't hold 
much logic.

Regards,
Andrew
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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Andrew Kohlsmith]

On Thursday 17 June 2004 10:21, Simon wrote:
> If i ask a question it's just nice to get a good clear and concise answer.
> Makes no odds to me where the answer is in the reply.

Precisely -- this is what this mini flame thread is all about.

Many of us believe that top posting, not trimming, etc. does NOT provide a 
clear and concise answer.

I tend to agree -- if the top-poster clears away all the crap that 99% of top 
posters DO NOT clear away, 75% of my beef with top posting would vanish.  The 
unfortunate case is that top posters seem to be inherently lazy, as is 
evidenced by 99% of them NOT trimming anything in their replies.

-A.
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RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[M3 Freak]

On Thu, 2004-06-17 at 09:23, Troy Settle wrote:
> A: Because we read the question in the previous message.
> 
> > Q: Why should I post my reply above the quoted text?

You are assuming that everyone subscribed to the list is reading you
particular thread.  If they're not, but are mostly just skimming through
and pausing to read when something looks interesting, top posting makes
it hard to understand what the discussion is about.

In any case, I'm not ramming this down anyone's throat.  If you don't
want to top post, then don't.  But, I think that after everything is
weighed (e.g. people finding threads with top posts on Google 10 years
later), top posting would come out the loser.

Alrighty, that's enough for me!  Two posts about this is all I'm
contributing.

Kanwar
Systems Aligned Inc.
www.systemsaligned.com

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RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Simon]

Being new to this list i must tread carefully but 

Who cares where the answers are so long as they are helpful and to the
point.

If i ask a question it's just nice to get a good clear and concise answer.
Makes no odds to me where the answer is in the reply.

Simon

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Andrew
Kohlsmith
Sent: 17 June 2004 14:41
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette


On Thursday 17 June 2004 09:21, Troy Settle wrote:
> However, my preference is for top posting.  The reason, is that in order
to
> read my message here, you had to scroll through ~70 lines of previous
> discussion.  Stuff that you've /already/ read since you've been following
> this thread.

That's because you didn't trim anything.  To see what I wrote to you You had
less than 10 lines to look at.  Please don't use absurdity to try and prove
your point.

> Oh!  Wait, you found this in an archive, so you /want/ to have the thread
> fully quoted so you don't have to go hunting down the references.  Good,
> that's why I didn't trim this post.

Um no, that's why the archives are threaded themselves.  Attempt at reductio
ad dbsurdum #2 failed.

> Oh, wait, the guys that are following this thread as it's being discussed
> would prefer that I trim out the stuff up there, in which case, I would be
> neither top posting, nor bottom posting.  This message would be a post
unto
> itself that wouldn't have any quoted material at all.  Afterall, you've
> already read the referenced material.

I consider trimming the quoted text and replying to the bits you keep as
they
occur bottom posting -- your text is FOLLOWING the relevant bits of the
conversation.

Inline posting is something completely different and it's even more heinous:

> So, the bottom line is that top-posters are lazy?  [ yes, they are
absolutely.  Inline posters are even worse! ] I say yes, we are.  We
> don't want to have to scroll through pages of quoted material just to get
> to the new stuff.  [ so trim your damned posts ]

That above is an example of inline posting.  Some managers have a penchant
for
that.

> I say that the bottom posters are lazy.  They want a bottom post so that
> they enter into a thread 12 messages later, and not have to read the
thread
> 'backwards.'  Read your mail to begin with, and you wouldn't have this
> problem, and you would actually start to appreciate the top posters,
> because they're making it so you don't have to scroll through ~70 lines of
> quoted material to get to the new stuff.

That's not laziness, that is following natural language laws.  I have over
25k
messages in my local copy of asterisk-users.  My MUA understands message
threading so if people posted the One True Way (editing quoted content and
replying underneath, as I am doing to you here) then there is no problem
following the flow of the thread, and if I need more information I move up
to
the message parent and see the entire message.

It's not a difficult thing to understand, and this absurdity you're spewing
to
try and prove your point only goes to show that your argument doesn't hold
much logic.

Regards,
Andrew
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RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Terry Goodwin]

What is this?   Day Three?

What is the standing record on this list for flame wars?  

You guys need to do a sanity check.  These posts are nothing more than
SPAM and Ive just added to it.

I feel so dirty now.

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 6/17/2004 9:08:09 AM >>>

> -Original Message-
> From: Gonzalo Servat
> Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 9:34 AM
> 
> Sorry to butt into this thread, but I think this is where you went
> wrong.  There was absolutely no need to quote 70+ lines of text to
say
> what you had to say.  You're supposed to quote the relevant bits (as
I
> did with this email), not the entire thread.
> 

It's an open mailing list, you're not butting in at all.

I agree with you completely, however, there is this great tool called
'exageration' that is sometimes used to make a point when a real-world
example would be too small to be perceived as signifigant.  For those
nay-sayers, please look at my post carefully.  I bottom posted, keeping
the
existing style, and while I left the quoted material untrimmed, I also
mentioned the other extreme, which is to completely exclude any quoted
material at all.

The bottom line of this issue is that everyone has their preferences,
and no
amount of crying and whining will cause the other side to comply with
your
wishes.  There are valid reasons for both posting styles, live with
it.

Those who continue to whine and cry about top posting need to be larted
with
a vengence.  It's like the last cry of those who lost the vi-vs-emacs
debate.  Just because you prefer one over the other doesn't make
everyone
else 'wrong.'  IMO, the top-vs-bottom topic really needs to be
classified
right along side with the RH-vs-Debian, red-vs-blue, unix-vs-windows,
ford-vs-chevy, linux-vs-bsd, and other similar cases of personal
preferences.  The is no winner, there never will be a winner.

BTW, for those of you who are curious, I too dispise HTML formatted
email in
a mailing list environment.  I also dislike those who flagrantly
disregard
existing styles within a thread (but, it's ok if different threads
have
different styles).  I also have very low regard for those among us who
would
hijack a thread.  I don't use a threaded mail reader myself (sucks to
be
me), but when browsing archives by thread, it's really annoying to
find
questions about personal lubricant in the middle of a heated debate
about
top-vs-bottom.

Of course, sometimes a thread will mutate naturally, at which point, it
may
be appropriate to change the subject (which I'm not going to do, since
I'm
too damned lazy.

Oh, for those curious, my single, biggest beef with mailing lists, is
the
inclusion of a list tag in the Subject: line.  I know it's
Asterisk-Users,
because it says so in the To: line.  It also says so in the List-ID:
and
Sender: lines.

--
  Troy Settle
  Pulaski Networks
  http://www.psknet.com 
  866.477.5638

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RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Troy Settle]

> -Original Message-
> From: Gonzalo Servat
> Sent: Thursday, June 17, 2004 9:34 AM
> 
> Sorry to butt into this thread, but I think this is where you went
> wrong.  There was absolutely no need to quote 70+ lines of text to say
> what you had to say.  You're supposed to quote the relevant bits (as I
> did with this email), not the entire thread.
> 

It's an open mailing list, you're not butting in at all.

I agree with you completely, however, there is this great tool called
'exageration' that is sometimes used to make a point when a real-world
example would be too small to be perceived as signifigant.  For those
nay-sayers, please look at my post carefully.  I bottom posted, keeping the
existing style, and while I left the quoted material untrimmed, I also
mentioned the other extreme, which is to completely exclude any quoted
material at all.

The bottom line of this issue is that everyone has their preferences, and no
amount of crying and whining will cause the other side to comply with your
wishes.  There are valid reasons for both posting styles, live with it.

Those who continue to whine and cry about top posting need to be larted with
a vengence.  It's like the last cry of those who lost the vi-vs-emacs
debate.  Just because you prefer one over the other doesn't make everyone
else 'wrong.'  IMO, the top-vs-bottom topic really needs to be classified
right along side with the RH-vs-Debian, red-vs-blue, unix-vs-windows,
ford-vs-chevy, linux-vs-bsd, and other similar cases of personal
preferences.  The is no winner, there never will be a winner.

BTW, for those of you who are curious, I too dispise HTML formatted email in
a mailing list environment.  I also dislike those who flagrantly disregard
existing styles within a thread (but, it's ok if different threads have
different styles).  I also have very low regard for those among us who would
hijack a thread.  I don't use a threaded mail reader myself (sucks to be
me), but when browsing archives by thread, it's really annoying to find
questions about personal lubricant in the middle of a heated debate about
top-vs-bottom.

Of course, sometimes a thread will mutate naturally, at which point, it may
be appropriate to change the subject (which I'm not going to do, since I'm
too damned lazy.

Oh, for those curious, my single, biggest beef with mailing lists, is the
inclusion of a list tag in the Subject: line.  I know it's Asterisk-Users,
because it says so in the To: line.  It also says so in the List-ID: and
Sender: lines.

--
  Troy Settle
  Pulaski Networks
  http://www.psknet.com
  866.477.5638

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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Andrew Kohlsmith]

On Thursday 17 June 2004 09:21, Troy Settle wrote:
> However, my preference is for top posting.  The reason, is that in order to
> read my message here, you had to scroll through ~70 lines of previous
> discussion.  Stuff that you've /already/ read since you've been following
> this thread.

That's because you didn't trim anything.  To see what I wrote to you You had 
less than 10 lines to look at.  Please don't use absurdity to try and prove 
your point.

> Oh!  Wait, you found this in an archive, so you /want/ to have the thread
> fully quoted so you don't have to go hunting down the references.  Good,
> that's why I didn't trim this post.

Um no, that's why the archives are threaded themselves.  Attempt at reductio 
ad dbsurdum #2 failed.

> Oh, wait, the guys that are following this thread as it's being discussed
> would prefer that I trim out the stuff up there, in which case, I would be
> neither top posting, nor bottom posting.  This message would be a post unto
> itself that wouldn't have any quoted material at all.  Afterall, you've
> already read the referenced material.

I consider trimming the quoted text and replying to the bits you keep as they 
occur bottom posting -- your text is FOLLOWING the relevant bits of the 
conversation.

Inline posting is something completely different and it's even more heinous:

> So, the bottom line is that top-posters are lazy?  [ yes, they are 
absolutely.  Inline posters are even worse! ] I say yes, we are.  We
> don't want to have to scroll through pages of quoted material just to get
> to the new stuff.  [ so trim your damned posts ]

That above is an example of inline posting.  Some managers have a penchant for 
that.

> I say that the bottom posters are lazy.  They want a bottom post so that
> they enter into a thread 12 messages later, and not have to read the thread
> 'backwards.'  Read your mail to begin with, and you wouldn't have this
> problem, and you would actually start to appreciate the top posters,
> because they're making it so you don't have to scroll through ~70 lines of
> quoted material to get to the new stuff.

That's not laziness, that is following natural language laws.  I have over 25k 
messages in my local copy of asterisk-users.  My MUA understands message 
threading so if people posted the One True Way (editing quoted content and 
replying underneath, as I am doing to you here) then there is no problem 
following the flow of the thread, and if I need more information I move up to 
the message parent and see the entire message.

It's not a difficult thing to understand, and this absurdity you're spewing to 
try and prove your point only goes to show that your argument doesn't hold 
much logic.

Regards,
Andrew
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RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Gonzalo Servat]

On Thu, 2004-06-17 at 09:21 -0400, Troy Settle wrote:
<..snip..>
>
> However, my preference is for top posting.  The reason, is that in order to
> read my message here, you had to scroll through ~70 lines of previous
> discussion.  Stuff that you've /already/ read since you've been following
> this thread.
>
<..snip..}

Sorry to butt into this thread, but I think this is where you went
wrong.  There was absolutely no need to quote 70+ lines of text to say
what you had to say.  You're supposed to quote the relevant bits (as I
did with this email), not the entire thread.

Regards,
Gonzalo

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RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Troy Settle]

A: Because we read the question in the previous message.

> Q: Why should I post my reply above the quoted text?

--
  Troy Settle
  Pulaski Networks
  http://www.psknet.com
  866.477.5638
 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of 
> Hermann Wecke
> Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 2:39 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
> 
> On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Nicholas Bachmann wrote:
> > You might try reading http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html -- it
> > explains why people don't like top posting.
> 
> Or read this quote:
> 
> A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right.
> Q: Why should i start my reply below the quoted text?
> - -- http://www.i-hate-computers.demon.co.uk/
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RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Troy Settle]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Lee
> Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 6:34 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette
> 
> Kevin Walsh wrote:
> > Steven Critchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > 
> >>You forgot to add in how awful it is when people  post 
> using HTML and
> >>then override font sizes or assume blue is an appropriate 
> font color for
> >>their message. 
> >>
> >>While I know some people don't like it when I turn my 
> attention to them,
> >>if it takes me even one more button press to be able to 
> read your mail,
> >>it isn't likely to be interesting to me to even bother 
> helping you with
> >>your problem. 
> >>
> >>Since the majority of unix users understand how each of us tweak our
> >>environment to be the most productive for us, we don't like 
> it when you
> >>take liberties with our settings.
> >>
> > 
> > He also forgot to mention how awful it is when people 
> lazily top-post
> > instead of taking the time to format their followups correctly.
> > This is especially true when trying to follow a thread found in the
> > archives.
> > 
> > I fully agree with your anti-HTML comments, by the way.
> > 
> I think you will find that about half the people out there 
> disagree with 
> this sentiment (a guess based on the number of top and bottom 
> posters I 
> have seen) so no matter how often you ask it is not likely to change 
> things much.
> Top posting is what a lot of people are very comfortable with.
> It also has the advantage in lists that when you step through 
> a thread 
> the answer to the last item is ready for you to read.
> So If you bottom post you make life harder for the thread 
> reader but if 
> you top post you make life harder for those that get a long 
> mail out of 
> the archives.Who should we favor?
> Don't ask why I am bottom posting, I have no good reason, it just so 
> happens that I am.
> 
> I don't like HTML either but a lot of people don't know they 
> can switch 
> it off or that it even exists (its a word processor isn't it?).
> Getting offended by these personal preferences just leads to that 
> etiquette problem, the god ol flame war. Or at least heated 
> debate that 
> will never be won with so many advocates for each side, that 
> the lists 
> become quite full of top/bottom html/text arguments.
> 
> Please don't bring these subjects into things it just makes 
> people with 
> other views upset.

I'm quite content to post at the top, bottom, or inline.  It really just
depends on the nature of the message I'm replying to, the subject, context,
and format of earlier messages in the thread.

However, my preference is for top posting.  The reason, is that in order to
read my message here, you had to scroll through ~70 lines of previous
discussion.  Stuff that you've /already/ read since you've been following
this thread.

Oh!  Wait, you found this in an archive, so you /want/ to have the thread
fully quoted so you don't have to go hunting down the references.  Good,
that's why I didn't trim this post.

Oh, wait, the guys that are following this thread as it's being discussed
would prefer that I trim out the stuff up there, in which case, I would be
neither top posting, nor bottom posting.  This message would be a post unto
itself that wouldn't have any quoted material at all.  Afterall, you've
already read the referenced material.

So, the bottom line is that top-posters are lazy?  I say yes, we are.  We
don't want to have to scroll through pages of quoted material just to get to
the new stuff.

I say that the bottom posters are lazy.  They want a bottom post so that
they enter into a thread 12 messages later, and not have to read the thread
'backwards.'  Read your mail to begin with, and you wouldn't have this
problem, and you would actually start to appreciate the top posters, because
they're making it so you don't have to scroll through ~70 lines of quoted
material to get to the new stuff.

--
  Troy Settle
  Pulaski Networks
  http://www.psknet.com
  866.477.5638
 

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RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Jon Radon]

Why is this conversation still taking place?  It's a matter of personal
preference and I think it should be dropped..  If you don't like someone's
post, then don't read it.  Problem solved.

I won't be replying to this topic again.. lets just drop it.

-Jon

-Original Message-
Jay Milk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> I've been using the usenet/internet since the early 90s, and I've had my
> share of newsreaders, mailclients, etc.  I've been active on the web
> with my own sites since 94/95.
>
> Yet... Gasp!... I PREFER TOP-POSTING (and I will continue to do so).
>
Perhaps you're just lazy.

If you explained why having your own websites was relevant to email
netiquette then I might understand.  You didn't post your reply in
context, so I'll never know.

What's that?  You expect me to search for the context hidden within
your lazily-quoted and un-trimmed article.  Not a chance.
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RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Kevin Walsh]

Jay Milk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> I've been using the usenet/internet since the early 90s, and I've had my
> share of newsreaders, mailclients, etc.  I've been active on the web
> with my own sites since 94/95.
> 
> Yet... Gasp!... I PREFER TOP-POSTING (and I will continue to do so).
> 
Perhaps you're just lazy.

If you explained why having your own websites was relevant to email
netiquette then I might understand.  You didn't post your reply in
context, so I'll never know.

What's that?  You expect me to search for the context hidden within
your lazily-quoted and un-trimmed article.  Not a chance.

-- 
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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Hermann Wecke]

On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Nicholas Bachmann wrote:
> You might try reading http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html -- it
> explains why people don't like top posting.

Or read this quote:

A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right.
Q: Why should i start my reply below the quoted text?
- -- http://www.i-hate-computers.demon.co.uk/
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RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Jay Milk]

I know the horse is dead, but I still want to get a couple of hits in.

I've been using the usenet/internet since the early 90s, and I've had my
share of newsreaders, mailclients, etc.  I've been active on the web
with my own sites since 94/95.

Yet... Gasp!... I PREFER TOP-POSTING (and I will continue to do so).

To address the points brought up on the page you linked:
1. Just because something is proper (n)etiquette doesn't make it any
better.  You're supposed to drink white wine with poultry, but I still
prefer a coke with my Chicken McNuggets.
2. What makes Forte Agent a "good newsreader"?  Would that be opinion,
or independently researched and verified fact.  I remember using Forte
(Free)Agent back in 95 or 96, and it was a crappy application that would
crash at least once which each session.  That aside, I don't use
signatures -- they're a waste of bandwidth.
3. Top-Posting only makes posts incomprehensible to those readers with
short attention span and/or Alzheimer's.  I usually follow my mailing
lists, and if I'm reading a reply that I don't understand, I quickly
scroll down the preferably top-posted message and read the context.
4. Server space being oh-so-expensive these days, that's a big concern.
Not.  But I do agree that people should at least zap the other posters'
signatures (or maybe they shouldn't be included in the first place?) and
the list-signature.
5. Hmm.. Top-posting makes bottom-posting harder?  Then don't
bottom-post!  Bottom-posting makes READING a mailing list more difficult
than it needs to be, and with ONE person posting and 8,000-10,000 people
READING the messages, that should be the main concern.
6. Or if you like, you can drop your "good newsreader" and start
conforming to the MS world.  I don't think the preferences of some
should dictate the software choice of the majority.  I'm not saying I
love Outlook, but it's served me more-or-less well for 7 or 8 years.  I
can not afford to drop it and lose years worth of correspondence.  I
also won't run a secondary mail-reader just to participate in
discussions about netiquette.
7. Same pointless reasoning as in point 3.  If you have SOME semblence
of short- or mid-term memory, you'll pick up right where you left of.
No scrolling required, unless you completely forgot everything you read
in the last 6-12 hours.  I only read about 1/2 the messages in the
asterisk list by subject (why read about PRI when only have SIP and
POTS?), and of the discussions that I follow, I have to scroll down only
one in every ten -- and most of those are the bottom-posted ones.
8. Oooh, now I'm scared -- flames.  Way to ignore completely what I
might have to contribute because I "post incorrectly".  And Jesus was
ostracized because He healed on the Sabbath.

Well, I think I explained my preference for top-posting well enough.  My
asterisk-messages all go into the same folder in my OUTLOOK mail reader,
and the top 1/3 of the screen holds a message list, while the bottom 2/3
have a message preview.  I can click through messages one-by-one, and
usually only need to pick up the mouse when someone decided to
bottom-post.  Most of the time, I skip those messages.

I know I won't -- and don't care to -- persuade those who have been told
for years they should bottom-post.  Heck, maybe you even have valid
reasons (which I haven't seen yet).  And maybe you look at my list of
reasons they same way I look at yours: with complete and utter
perplexion.

So, maybe we can just agree to disagree.

(PS: You're welcome for not having to scroll to the bottom to start
reading this message :)
 
-----Original Message-
From: Nicholas Bachmann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 8:13 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette


Holger Schurig wrote:

>>Before hanging up, there should be an extension reminding everyone 
>>that top posting is super duper wrong and oh so annoying.
>>
>>
>
>Must I use the Wiki or Google to find out what "top posting" is?  :-)
>  
>
You might try reading http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html -- it 
explains why people don't like top posting.

Nick

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RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Jeremy Hall]

Kevin Walsh  scribbled on Tuesday, June 15,
2004 2:32 PM:

> If you use Microsoft Outlook then you might find this utility
> interesting: 
> 
> http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/

Just a note for those using Word as their editor (an option you can
configure from the Outlook Options/Mail Format menu:)  This plug-in will
not work when using Word as your editor.  Word does not provide any
quoting besides indentation.  I use Outlook here at work (don't have a
choice) and had to change my editor back to Outlook in order to get this
working right.

I personally prefer top-posting for most things when following a thread
as I can open the new message and the most recent comments are right at
the top.  If I need a refresher, I can read down further.  It is similar
to the way newspaper articles are written, the most relevant information
at the top.

On the flip side, reading archived messages are a bigger pain when
top-posted, so I can definitely understand why some people complain.

Jeremy



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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Nicholas Bachmann]

Holger Schurig wrote:
Before hanging up, there should be an extension reminding everyone that
top posting is super duper wrong and oh so annoying.
   

Must I use the Wiki or Google to find out what "top posting" is?  :-)
 

You might try reading http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html -- it 
explains why people don't like top posting.

Nick
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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Jon Lawrence]

On Tuesday 15 June 2004 20:45, Aaron J. Angel wrote:
>
> And for those of you who don't like HTML email with  different fonts or
> colors, etc., there's this thing called CSS .
And for the rest of us, there's /dev/null which is where html email belongs.

>If you expect everyone else to use a client that bottom-posts, then I expect 
>you to use an HTML-capable email client that supports CSS for accessibility.

Expect away. I like many other won't have to read it 'cos it never gets as far 
as the inbox.

>  Yes, I hear your reply,
> and you're right, switching clients is not an answer for everyone.  Deal
> with it.

Yes, switching clients isn't even an option in some situations. However 
configuring a client correctly is always an option.

Jon

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RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Rich Adamson]

> > Isn't it odd as hell the same people that complain about html are also
> > some of the same people that use "special" mail readers to emulate news
> > readers? Both seem to want to influence the 8,000 list members their
> > tools are the only one's in existence and we better all format our
> > list postings to make their tool happy. NOT!
> > 
> > Guess my 1996 reader must be a little odd; it handles top & bottom postings
> > along with html without complaining a bit.
> 
> Most all mail readers these days support HTML email. The difference
> though is when one uses a mail reader that renders the HTML and the HTML
> is written by someone who has no clue how the readers machine is set up.
> I use Evolution for my mail reading when on a machine with a SMTP
> gateway, I use mutt elsewise. When using Evolution, I can get through my
> mail faster, but if a person chooses a blue font, it is difficult to
> read and therefore not worth my time to tell evolution to convert to
> plain text to fix the users gaff. 
> 
> Also, when someone chooses what font and size I should be reading mail
> in, is just as bad since most Microcrap clients choose to shrink the
> size about 2 sizes smaller than my normal which is set at the smallest I
> can read at a decent speed. Since I stare at code all day, this is
> fairly small so I can see as much of the code at once as possible. 

For all of us old-timers that have been here a while, Steve, you did a
very admiral thing in not responding to the root issue. Thanks!!

Top vs Bottom is 99% irrelevant except to a few, and although none of
us like html, its less objectionable then the top/bottom complaints
from the few.


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RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Kevin Walsh]

Aaron J. Angel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> M3 Freak wrote:
> > Before hanging up, there should be an extension reminding
> > everyone that top posting is super duper wrong and oh so annoying.
> > 
> > I used to top post, but now I understand why it's frowned
> > upon.  It should be avoided at all costs.
> >
> Unfortunately, some of us just can't help it.  Some of us use this nifty
> (read: *$#&[EMAIL PROTECTED]) program called Outlook (especially in the workplace),
> made by a company that doesn't care for common email ettiquete, let alone
> user preference. 
> 
> I happen to be one of those persons (although it's not a matter of the
> company's IT decisions; I just don't see how it is beneficial to use
> multiple emailers for the sake of a mailing list.  And for those that
> *are* subscribed at the workplace, note that it took a bit of effort (too
> much to write a simple message like this, IMO) to produce a properly
> bottom posted message like this (that is, if you consider the attribution
> without date "proper", which would require more copying, pasting, and
> lead to further obfuscation). 
> 
If you use Microsoft Outlook then you might find this utility interesting:

http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/outlook-quotefix/

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RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Aaron J. Angel]

M3 Freak wrote:
> Before hanging up, there should be an extension reminding 
> everyone that top posting is super duper wrong and oh so annoying.
> 
> I used to top post, but now I understand why it's frowned 
> upon.  It should be avoided at all costs.

Unfortunately, some of us just can't help it.  Some of us use this nifty
(read: *$#&[EMAIL PROTECTED]) program called Outlook (especially in the workplace), 
made
by a company that doesn't care for common email ettiquete, let alone user
preference.

I happen to be one of those persons (although it's not a matter of the
company's IT decisions; I just don't see how it is beneficial to use
multiple emailers for the sake of a mailing list.  And for those that *are*
subscribed at the workplace, note that it took a bit of effort (too much to
write a simple message like this, IMO) to produce a properly bottom posted
message like this (that is, if you consider the attribution without date
"proper", which would require more copying, pasting, and lead to further
obfuscation).

And for those of you who don't like HTML email with  different fonts or
colors, etc., there's this thing called CSS.  If you expect everyone else to
use a client that bottom-posts, then I expect you to use an HTML-capable
email client that supports CSS for accessibility.  Yes, I hear your reply,
and you're right, switching clients is not an answer for everyone.  Deal
with it.

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RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Kevin Walsh]

Simon Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> And didn't the original poster of this thread state rather forcefully that
> this list is for * issues, not to be hijacked - which is exactly what is
> happening based on comments/demands made by the original poster that were
> not on the topic of * 
> 
You probably missed the subject of this thread which, of course, was
set by the original poster.

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RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Steven Critchfield]

On Tue, 2004-06-15 at 08:35, Rich Adamson wrote:
> Isn't it odd as hell the same people that complain about html are also
> some of the same people that use "special" mail readers to emulate news
> readers? Both seem to want to influence the 8,000 list members their
> tools are the only one's in existence and we better all format our
> list postings to make their tool happy. NOT!
> 
> Guess my 1996 reader must be a little odd; it handles top & bottom postings
> along with html without complaining a bit.

Most all mail readers these days support HTML email. The difference
though is when one uses a mail reader that renders the HTML and the HTML
is written by someone who has no clue how the readers machine is set up.
I use Evolution for my mail reading when on a machine with a SMTP
gateway, I use mutt elsewise. When using Evolution, I can get through my
mail faster, but if a person chooses a blue font, it is difficult to
read and therefore not worth my time to tell evolution to convert to
plain text to fix the users gaff. 

Also, when someone chooses what font and size I should be reading mail
in, is just as bad since most Microcrap clients choose to shrink the
size about 2 sizes smaller than my normal which is set at the smallest I
can read at a decent speed. Since I stare at code all day, this is
fairly small so I can see as much of the code at once as possible. 


> > Steven Critchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > You forgot to add in how awful it is when people  post using HTML and
> > > then override font sizes or assume blue is an appropriate font color for
> > > their message. 
> > > 
> > > While I know some people don't like it when I turn my attention to them,
> > > if it takes me even one more button press to be able to read your mail,
> > > it isn't likely to be interesting to me to even bother helping you with
> > > your problem. 
> > > 
> > > Since the majority of unix users understand how each of us tweak our
> > > environment to be the most productive for us, we don't like it when you
> > > take liberties with our settings.
> > > 
> > He also forgot to mention how awful it is when people lazily top-post
> > instead of taking the time to format their followups correctly.
> > This is especially true when trying to follow a thread found in the
> > archives.
> > 
> > I fully agree with your anti-HTML comments, by the way.
> 
> 
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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Walt Reed]

On Tue, Jun 15, 2004 at 07:35:31AM -0600, Rich Adamson said:
> Isn't it odd as hell the same people that complain about html are also
> some of the same people that use "special" mail readers to emulate news
> readers? Both seem to want to influence the 8,000 list members their
> tools are the only one's in existence and we better all format our
> list postings to make their tool happy. NOT!

There are several good reasons HTML is bad on mailing lists, and font
issues are among the least important IMO.

First, text is the lowest common denominator. Every mail client supports
it. Second, HTML takes more disk / bandwidth. Remember: this IS exploded
to over 8000 members - HTML is usually  twice as large, and generally
more like 3 or 4 times due to the fact that most MUA's attach both an HTML
and plain text version. Horrible. This increases delays in delivering
each message which increases the chance of multiple people responding to
the same message with the same answer which makes the traffic problem
even worse (of course using a braid-dead email client that can't handle
threading is a greater contributer to this problem.) Third, it messes up
archives and digests. I could go on, but this issue has been rehashed
many times elsewhere. Google.

Some lists are taking proactive measures to handle this. They configure
the software to reject all attachments and HTML, which is a good thing
IMNSHO.
 
> > Steven Critchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > > You forgot to add in how awful it is when people  post using HTML and
> > > then override font sizes or assume blue is an appropriate font color for
> > > their message. 
> > > 
> > He also forgot to mention how awful it is when people lazily top-post
> > instead of taking the time to format their followups correctly.
> > This is especially true when trying to follow a thread found in the
> > archives.
> > 
> > I fully agree with your anti-HTML comments, by the way.


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RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Rich Adamson]

Isn't it odd as hell the same people that complain about html are also
some of the same people that use "special" mail readers to emulate news
readers? Both seem to want to influence the 8,000 list members their
tools are the only one's in existence and we better all format our
list postings to make their tool happy. NOT!

Guess my 1996 reader must be a little odd; it handles top & bottom postings
along with html without complaining a bit.

> Steven Critchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > You forgot to add in how awful it is when people  post using HTML and
> > then override font sizes or assume blue is an appropriate font color for
> > their message. 
> > 
> > While I know some people don't like it when I turn my attention to them,
> > if it takes me even one more button press to be able to read your mail,
> > it isn't likely to be interesting to me to even bother helping you with
> > your problem. 
> > 
> > Since the majority of unix users understand how each of us tweak our
> > environment to be the most productive for us, we don't like it when you
> > take liberties with our settings.
> > 
> He also forgot to mention how awful it is when people lazily top-post
> instead of taking the time to format their followups correctly.
> This is especially true when trying to follow a thread found in the
> archives.
> 
> I fully agree with your anti-HTML comments, by the way.


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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Steve Totaro]

I hate asci signatures that are hard to read, stop eating up my bits   :p


- Original Message - 
From: "Kevin Walsh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 6:07 AM
Subject: RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette


> Steven Critchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > You forgot to add in how awful it is when people  post using HTML and
> > then override font sizes or assume blue is an appropriate font color for
> > their message.
> >
> > While I know some people don't like it when I turn my attention to them,
> > if it takes me even one more button press to be able to read your mail,
> > it isn't likely to be interesting to me to even bother helping you with
> > your problem.
> >
> > Since the majority of unix users understand how each of us tweak our
> > environment to be the most productive for us, we don't like it when you
> > take liberties with our settings.
> >
> He also forgot to mention how awful it is when people lazily top-post
> instead of taking the time to format their followups correctly.
> This is especially true when trying to follow a thread found in the
> archives.
>
> I fully agree with your anti-HTML comments, by the way.
>
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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Steve Totaro]

LIFO  Last In First Out


- Original Message - 
From: "tmpm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 2004 4:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette


> Its a matter of personal preference Holger, most people dont care, but the
> ones who do whine about it a lot and can read it fine just as well. This
is
> a top post. its up top of the msg its posted about. It gives some the
> impression youre too lazy to trim the stuff below it.
> While trimming is a good idea for brevity, (as some of us have email
> quotas..ahem) I'm as guilty as the next person when I forget to trim. We
> all do from time to time.
>
> At 02:46 6/15/2004, you wrote:
> > > Before hanging up, there should be an extension reminding everyone
that
> > > top posting is super duper wrong and oh so annoying.
> >
> >Must I use the Wiki or Google to find out what "top posting" is?  :-)
>
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RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Martin List-Petersen]

On Tue, 2004-06-15 at 12:29, Simon Brown wrote:
> And didn't the original poster of this thread state rather forcefully that
> this list is for * issues, not to be hijacked - which is exactly what is
> happening based on comments/demands made by the original poster that were not
> on the topic of *

Doesn't matter. He can as well learn, as anybody else here.

Stop throwing mud and keep to the point = *

Kind regards,
Martin List-Petersen
martin (at) list (dash) petersen (dot) net


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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Andrew Kohlsmith]

On Monday 14 June 2004 23:03, twisted wrote:
> Friends, Romans, Countrymen, lend me your ears!

This reminds me of the Robin Hood, Men in Tights scene where Robin of Loxley 
says the same and all the villagers throw ears at him.

"That's disgusting!"

> And now, for the Asterisk-Users dial plan:

You forgot one:

exten => s,8,When starting a new discussion, DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT hit the 
"Reply" button, change the subject, erase the body and start a new subject!  
This places your question in the middle of an ongoing thread.  You probably 
don't notice this becuase your mail reader does not support threading but for 
the vast majority of us it buries your question in the middle of an unrelated 
string of messages and actually PREVENTS us from noticing your question since 
we may not be interested in the rest of the thread.  Please, for God's Sake, 
click on the email address for the list, save yourself a lot of erasing and 
give your question the "new thread" smell it deserves!

exten => s,9,Goto(Ettiquette,s,1)

Regards,
Andrew
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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Andrew Kohlsmith]

On Tuesday 15 June 2004 06:34, Chris Lee wrote:
> Top posting is what a lot of people are very comfortable with.
> It also has the advantage in lists that when you step through a thread
> the answer to the last item is ready for you to read.

I disagree completely, and I am a threaded reader.

The *PROPER* way to write email replies is to post comments inline, stripping 
out everything not needed in the email you're replying to, such as I am doing 
right now.  People who leave the entire message they've replied to, headers, 
footers and inane comments intact for 16 messages "deep" are wasting 
resources, no matter how small.

It takes more effort to propery trim and format email replies this way but IMO 
it puts your responses in context and keeps the email concise, no matter how 
deep the thread.

> I don't like HTML either but a lot of people don't know they can switch
> it off or that it even exists (its a word processor isn't it?).

True, it's a problem with MUAs in general.  Don't even get me started on the 
WINMAIL.DAT-obsessed.  :-)

> Please don't bring these subjects into things it just makes people with
> other views upset.

Agreed to a point, but I also believe that polite society finds a common 
ground and adheres to it for the good of the society.  :-)

-A.
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RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Simon Brown]

And didn't the original poster of this thread state rather forcefully that
this list is for * issues, not to be hijacked - which is exactly what is
happening based on comments/demands made by the original poster that were not
on the topic of *

Simon Brown 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Lee
Sent: Tuesday, 15 June 2004 20:34
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

Kevin Walsh wrote:
> Steven Critchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
>>You forgot to add in how awful it is when people  post using HTML and 
>>then override font sizes or assume blue is an appropriate font color 
>>for their message.
>>
>>While I know some people don't like it when I turn my attention to 
>>them, if it takes me even one more button press to be able to read 
>>your mail, it isn't likely to be interesting to me to even bother 
>>helping you with your problem.
>>
>>Since the majority of unix users understand how each of us tweak our 
>>environment to be the most productive for us, we don't like it when 
>>you take liberties with our settings.
>>
> 
> He also forgot to mention how awful it is when people lazily top-post 
> instead of taking the time to format their followups correctly.
> This is especially true when trying to follow a thread found in the 
> archives.
> 
> I fully agree with your anti-HTML comments, by the way.
> 
I think you will find that about half the people out there disagree with this
sentiment (a guess based on the number of top and bottom posters I have seen)
so no matter how often you ask it is not likely to change things much.
Top posting is what a lot of people are very comfortable with.
It also has the advantage in lists that when you step through a thread the
answer to the last item is ready for you to read.
So If you bottom post you make life harder for the thread reader but if you
top post you make life harder for those that get a long mail out of the
archives.Who should we favor?
Don't ask why I am bottom posting, I have no good reason, it just so happens
that I am.

I don't like HTML either but a lot of people don't know they can switch it
off or that it even exists (its a word processor isn't it?).
Getting offended by these personal preferences just leads to that etiquette
problem, the god ol flame war. Or at least heated debate that will never be
won with so many advocates for each side, that the lists become quite full of
top/bottom html/text arguments.

Please don't bring these subjects into things it just makes people with other
views upset.
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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Chris Lee]

Kevin Walsh wrote:
Steven Critchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
You forgot to add in how awful it is when people  post using HTML and
then override font sizes or assume blue is an appropriate font color for
their message. 

While I know some people don't like it when I turn my attention to them,
if it takes me even one more button press to be able to read your mail,
it isn't likely to be interesting to me to even bother helping you with
your problem. 

Since the majority of unix users understand how each of us tweak our
environment to be the most productive for us, we don't like it when you
take liberties with our settings.
He also forgot to mention how awful it is when people lazily top-post
instead of taking the time to format their followups correctly.
This is especially true when trying to follow a thread found in the
archives.
I fully agree with your anti-HTML comments, by the way.
I think you will find that about half the people out there disagree with 
this sentiment (a guess based on the number of top and bottom posters I 
have seen) so no matter how often you ask it is not likely to change 
things much.
Top posting is what a lot of people are very comfortable with.
It also has the advantage in lists that when you step through a thread 
the answer to the last item is ready for you to read.
So If you bottom post you make life harder for the thread reader but if 
you top post you make life harder for those that get a long mail out of 
the archives.Who should we favor?
Don't ask why I am bottom posting, I have no good reason, it just so 
happens that I am.

I don't like HTML either but a lot of people don't know they can switch 
it off or that it even exists (its a word processor isn't it?).
Getting offended by these personal preferences just leads to that 
etiquette problem, the god ol flame war. Or at least heated debate that 
will never be won with so many advocates for each side, that the lists 
become quite full of top/bottom html/text arguments.

Please don't bring these subjects into things it just makes people with 
other views upset.
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RE: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Kevin Walsh]

Steven Critchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> You forgot to add in how awful it is when people  post using HTML and
> then override font sizes or assume blue is an appropriate font color for
> their message. 
> 
> While I know some people don't like it when I turn my attention to them,
> if it takes me even one more button press to be able to read your mail,
> it isn't likely to be interesting to me to even bother helping you with
> your problem. 
> 
> Since the majority of unix users understand how each of us tweak our
> environment to be the most productive for us, we don't like it when you
> take liberties with our settings.
> 
He also forgot to mention how awful it is when people lazily top-post
instead of taking the time to format their followups correctly.
This is especially true when trying to follow a thread found in the
archives.

I fully agree with your anti-HTML comments, by the way.

-- 
   _/   _/  _/_/_/_/  _/_/  _/_/_/  _/_/
  _/_/_/   _/_/  _/_/_/_/_/  _/   K e v i n   W a l s h
 _/ _/_/  _/ _/ _/_/  _/_/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
_/   _/  _/_/_/_/  _/_/_/_/  _/_/

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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[tmpm]

Its a matter of personal preference Holger, most people dont care, but the 
ones who do whine about it a lot and can read it fine just as well. This is 
a top post. its up top of the msg its posted about. It gives some the 
impression youre too lazy to trim the stuff below it.
While trimming is a good idea for brevity, (as some of us have email 
quotas..ahem) I'm as guilty as the next person when I forget to trim. We 
all do from time to time.

At 02:46 6/15/2004, you wrote:
> Before hanging up, there should be an extension reminding everyone that
> top posting is super duper wrong and oh so annoying.
Must I use the Wiki or Google to find out what "top posting" is?  :-)
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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Holger Schurig]

> Before hanging up, there should be an extension reminding everyone that
> top posting is super duper wrong and oh so annoying.

Must I use the Wiki or Google to find out what "top posting" is?  :-)

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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[M3 Freak]

On Mon, 2004-06-14 at 23:03, twisted wrote:
[snip]
> And now, for the Asterisk-Users dial plan:
[snip]

Before hanging up, there should be an extension reminding everyone that
top posting is super duper wrong and oh so annoying.

I used to top post, but now I understand why it's frowned upon.  It
should be avoided at all costs.

Please, everyone, stop top posting.  And, for people that don't top
post, please cut out the sections of the message that aren't required. 
There's usually no need to include an entire message when replying in a
thread.

Anyway, that's my two cents.

Kanwar
Systems Aligned Inc.
www.systemsaligned.com

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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[Steven Critchfield]

You forgot to add in how awful it is when people  post using HTML and
then override font sizes or assume blue is an appropriate font color for
their message.

While I know some people don't like it when I turn my attention to them,
if it takes me even one more button press to be able to read your mail,
it isn't likely to be interesting to me to even bother helping you with
your problem.

Since the majority of unix users understand how each of us tweak our
environment to be the most productive for us, we don't like it when you
take liberties with our settings.

On Mon, 2004-06-14 at 22:03, twisted wrote:
> Friends, Romans, Countrymen, lend me your ears!
> 
> Or, in this case, your eyes.
> 
> It has become a problem I've noticed over and over again, that we tend
> to think the mailing list is some sort of forum, used to post whatever
> your hearts desire.  This list, not unlike any other mailing list, has
> a purpose.  A focus if you will.  Hopefully this 'document' will point
> out some key things we need to change to help this list remain friendly
> and helpful, not to mention, a vital asset to the Asterisk community.
> 
> And now, for the Asterisk-Users dial plan:
> 
> [Etiquette]
> 
> Exten => s,1, Posts to the Asterisk-Users list should be concise, and
> on-topic.  Remember, the topic is ASTERISK, not "Provider  
> X doesn't answer email", or "Provider Y doesn't have rates  listed
> on their website."  Gripes of this nature, and  discussion of
> businesses relating to Asterisk should  be handled on the
> Asterisk-Biz list, or in the case ofcustomer service, with the
> person/provider in question.
> 
> Exten => s,2, Everyone was new at some point.  Let's try to keep our
> cool with new members of the asterisk community.  While
> yes, there needs to be some research done before asking
> questions, Let's point them in the right direction, and do  so
> politely.  A general rule of thumb to use is to reply   to 'newbie'
> questions as if the person asking the question  was a guest in
> your home.
> 
> Exten => s,3, Since there are lot of users who deal with the community
> from the workplace, let's watch our language on the list.  
> Not to be a sort of cyber-nanny, but most workplace ethics  frown
> deeply on vulgarity in *ANY* form.  
> 
> Exten => s,4, Keep flames, criticism, and cruelty to yourself.  If you
> don't like the way a question has been answered, simply
> post an alternative method.  No need to degrade someone or  their
> methods simply because you do not agree.
> 
> Exten => s,5, If you have found a bug, feel free to discuss it here to
> confirm the issue, but remember, if you want action, you   
> will need to post it to the bug tracker at 
> http://bugs.digium.com, and be available for furthertesting if
> necessary.  Also, to keep non-bugs out of 
>   the tracker, try to find someone on #asterisk-bugs on IRC
> before posting the bug to confirm it.
> 
> Exten => s,6, If you find something useful to the community, and it
> directly relates to Asterisk, share it!  Feel free to post 
> here or on the Wiki 
> (http://www.voip-info.org/Wiki-Asterisk).  
> 
> Exten => s,7, Not everyone will abide by the etiquette, and there's
> nothing we can do about that; But to avoid a flare-up, try 
> not to take it personally, or better yet, simply don't  respond to
> it.
> 
> Exten => s,8,Goto(Etiquette,s,1)
> 
> 
> If we can all agree on this, this list will continue to be a useful tool
> for the community. 
> 
> Please note - this was not specific to anyone, nor should it be taken
> personally by anyone.  This is just a guideline to keeping the peace,
> and increase our productivity as a community.  
> 
>  Remember: We are a COMMUNITY.  
> 
> Thank you for your time, and please, if you must flame me for this, do
> it off-list.
> 
> ---
> with our deepest love,
> twisted & bkw
> 
> Exten => h,1,HangUp()
> 
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Re: [Asterisk-Users] Asterisk-Users List Etiquette

[twisted]

Sorry for the formatting everyone.. my mailer blows chunks... it looked
ok before I sent it ;)

On Mon, 2004-06-14 at 22:03, twisted wrote:
> Friends, Romans, Countrymen, lend me your ears!
> 
> Or, in this case, your eyes.
> 
> It has become a problem I've noticed over and over again, that we tend
> to think the mailing list is some sort of forum, used to post whatever
> your hearts desire.  This list, not unlike any other mailing list, has
> a purpose.  A focus if you will.  Hopefully this 'document' will point
> out some key things we need to change to help this list remain friendly
> and helpful, not to mention, a vital asset to the Asterisk community.
> 
> And now, for the Asterisk-Users dial plan:
> 
> [Etiquette]
> 
> Exten => s,1, Posts to the Asterisk-Users list should be concise, and
> on-topic.  Remember, the topic is ASTERISK, not "Provider  
> X doesn't answer email", or "Provider Y doesn't have rates  listed
> on their website."  Gripes of this nature, and  discussion of
> businesses relating to Asterisk should  be handled on the
> Asterisk-Biz list, or in the case ofcustomer service, with the
> person/provider in question.
> 
> Exten => s,2, Everyone was new at some point.  Let's try to keep our
> cool with new members of the asterisk community.  While
> yes, there needs to be some research done before asking
> questions, Let's point them in the right direction, and do  so
> politely.  A general rule of thumb to use is to reply   to 'newbie'
> questions as if the person asking the question  was a guest in
> your home.
> 
> Exten => s,3, Since there are lot of users who deal with the community
> from the workplace, let's watch our language on the list.  
> Not to be a sort of cyber-nanny, but most workplace ethics  frown
> deeply on vulgarity in *ANY* form.  
> 
> Exten => s,4, Keep flames, criticism, and cruelty to yourself.  If you
> don't like the way a question has been answered, simply
> post an alternative method.  No need to degrade someone or  their
> methods simply because you do not agree.
> 
> Exten => s,5, If you have found a bug, feel free to discuss it here to
> confirm the issue, but remember, if you want action, you   
> will need to post it to the bug tracker at 
> http://bugs.digium.com, and be available for furthertesting if
> necessary.  Also, to keep non-bugs out of 
>   the tracker, try to find someone on #asterisk-bugs on IRC
> before posting the bug to confirm it.
> 
> Exten => s,6, If you find something useful to the community, and it
> directly relates to Asterisk, share it!  Feel free to post 
> here or on the Wiki 
> (http://www.voip-info.org/Wiki-Asterisk).  
> 
> Exten => s,7, Not everyone will abide by the etiquette, and there's
> nothing we can do about that; But to avoid a flare-up, try 
> not to take it personally, or better yet, simply don't  respond to
> it.
> 
> Exten => s,8,Goto(Etiquette,s,1)
> 
> 
> If we can all agree on this, this list will continue to be a useful tool
> for the community. 
> 
> Please note - this was not specific to anyone, nor should it be taken
> personally by anyone.  This is just a guideline to keeping the peace,
> and increase our productivity as a community.  
> 
>  Remember: We are a COMMUNITY.  
> 
> Thank you for your time, and please, if you must flame me for this, do
> it off-list.
> 
> ---
> with our deepest love,
> twisted & bkw
> 
> Exten => h,1,HangUp()
> 
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---
Josh Roberson
Indigent Networks
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
877.677.9647 - 615.724.0402

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