RE: [Asterisk-Users] New ENUM service, what do you think?
While I wish the guys at Stealth the best of luck, I'll say again that ENUM is _NOT_ the solution for VoIP routing in the current real world. See the mailing list archives for more of my rants on why DNS is not the answer for cost-based routing (where cost is monetary, distance, qos, or any other comparative metric.) TRIP (RFC 3219) is the answer, but I'm the only one pounding that drum, it seems. If anyone here on the list has $100,000 to put together a real programming effort towards getting that implemented, y'all let me know. The longer this waits, the more lame and broken become the solutions offered. sigh JT At 1:28 PM -0400 5/2/04, Joe Baptista wrote: On Sat, 1 May 2004, Dean Collins wrote: Yes but no information about how this will operate, what regulation or restrictions on joining, what connection protocols will be used etc etc agreed - you see alot of business fluff - but the technicals are very important and on many of these ventures they fail to include them. regards joe www.baptista.god Cheers, Dean -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Reid A. Forrest Sent: Saturday, 1 May 2004 8:21 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Asterisk-Users] New ENUM service, what do you think? From http://www.thevpf.com/ To join, please e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] or telephone 1-212-232-2020 (Mon-Fri 9AM-5PM EST). -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of jimfl Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 5:11 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] New ENUM service, what do you think? Jim/frank, Can you give us more information about how to access this enum? I've been to the stealth web site and there is no information about access. I look forward with interest to what you have up and running today for asterisk users to benefit from. Cheers, Dean Sorry, I am not associated with Stealth in any way. Just saw the news story and thought it would be of interest to Asterisk users. It sounds like you don't have to be a VOIP provider to get access to their service. They talk about businesses using the service. If anyone finds out how to get access to their service, please post. Jim ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] New ENUM service, what do you think?
You may be quite right, I have read parts of the rfc at least, I remember, but the lure of using cheap existing infrastructure is probably to great. KHB - Original Message - From: John Todd [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2004 03:20 Subject: RE: [Asterisk-Users] New ENUM service, what do you think? While I wish the guys at Stealth the best of luck, I'll say again that ENUM is _NOT_ the solution for VoIP routing in the current real world. See the mailing list archives for more of my rants on why DNS is not the answer for cost-based routing (where cost is monetary, distance, qos, or any other comparative metric.) TRIP (RFC 3219) is the answer, but I'm the only one pounding that drum, it seems. If anyone here on the list has $100,000 to put together a real programming effort towards getting that implemented, y'all let me know. The longer this waits, the more lame and broken become the solutions offered. sigh JT ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] New ENUM service, what do you think?
John Todd wrote: TRIP (RFC 3219) is the answer, but I'm the only one pounding that drum, it seems. If anyone here on the list has $100,000 to put together a real programming effort towards getting that implemented, y'all let me know. The longer this waits, the more lame and broken become the solutions offered. sigh One small oversight in your thinking, something like TRIP will only benefit large telcos and VOIP providers with interconnects, I don't see this flowing down to a tangible benefit to the average person, where as something like enum.164 is. TRIP is based on BGP and BGP already does most of the IP routing smarts TRIP is supposed to be beneficial for, however that $100k would be better spent on improving the smarts in the call routing software rather then turning things back into a hub and spoke model, p2p is way more efficient if it can be utilised to it's full potential. At this stage the only potential method to prevent VOIP spam is something like SPF records, which would only end up duplicate enum. It's a lot harder to get phone numbers then IP addresses, so this would overcome people's concerns about dynamically allocated IPs, phone numbers aren't. -- Best regards, Duane http://www.cacert.org - Free Security Certificates http://www.nodedb.com - Think globally, network locally http://www.sydneywireless.com - Telecommunications Freedom http://happysnapper.com.au - Sell your photos over the net! http://e164.org - Using Enum.164 to interconnect asterisk servers ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] New ENUM service, what do you think?
At 7:14 PM +1000 on 5/4/04, Duane wrote: John Todd wrote: TRIP (RFC 3219) is the answer, but I'm the only one pounding that drum, it seems. If anyone here on the list has $100,000 to put together a real programming effort towards getting that implemented, y'all let me know. The longer this waits, the more lame and broken become the solutions offered. sigh One small oversight in your thinking, something like TRIP will only benefit large telcos and VOIP providers with interconnects, I don't see this flowing down to a tangible benefit to the average person, where as something like enum.164 is. TRIP is based on BGP and BGP already does most of the IP routing smarts TRIP is supposed to be beneficial for, however that $100k would be better spent on improving the smarts in the call routing software rather then turning things back into a hub and spoke model, p2p is way more efficient if it can be utilised to it's full potential. At this stage the only potential method to prevent VOIP spam is something like SPF records, which would only end up duplicate enum. It's a lot harder to get phone numbers then IP addresses, so this would overcome people's concerns about dynamically allocated IPs, phone numbers aren't. -- Best regards, Duane I strongly disagree with your summary that TRIP doesn't help the smaller user. In fact, the reason I'm so strongly an advocate of some type of TRIP development is that it removes the barriers for small entities in the pursuit of better call rates for TDM offload and VoIP interconnection. Comparative routing data should not be the sole domain of huge telephony firms. One example... Currently, I see quite a few people here trying to get good rates to various international destinations (regardless of their nation of origin.) Wouldn't it be nice to have a protocol that allowed the home or small business user to have COMPETING long distance carriers on a per-call basis? When one of them runs a sale, your voice traffic could (according to your rules) shift over to the least expensive/best sounding/whatever carrier that you'd chosen. Just get a TRIP feed from three or four carriers, and away you go. It all would happen automatically, and you could preference or de-preference certain metrics as you went along but the carriers will be sending you their most up-to-date routing information for PSTN handoff destinations. Wouldn't it be great if your Asterisk server had that ability? This is just one use and benefit case of TRIP; there are many others. If you say that ENUM is going to solve that problem by offering pointers for every phone prefix in the world in the next 5 years, or even 33% of them, I would suggest that is a rather optimistic outlook. ENUM cannot have competing answers to the same question; it MUST have a single answer, no matter how many private ENUM servers you put in the path (otherwise, you're just redesigning TRIP.) TDM offload in between VoIP networks is here to stay; we just need a protocol that allows inter-system route exchange for those of us lucky enough to be able to take advantage of it today, not sometime in the far off future. Yes, it will also help large carriers as well for their exchange of route information, but it's not limited to their use. TRIP is like BGP in it's design, but extremely different in it's implementation. It layers on top of IP, so arguments comparing BGP to TRIP with terms like hub and spoke are invalid. Destination information does not (necessarily) follow any of the path of the lower layers of the routing protocol. Additionally, I am unclear on how you believe that TRIP is involved in IP routing smarts. The two are not linked in any way. Can you clarify? I am uncertain to what your final comments about spam refer. Neither ENUM nor TRIP address issues of call validation in a realistic manner; any SPF-like methods for verifying origination work equally well with either reference scheme. Remember that ENUM is a stopgap, and we should do all we can to move away from numbers as an addressing scheme for VoIP (or any protocol) delivery. My SIP phone address is [EMAIL PROTECTED] but the only reason most people can't use that is because they are crippled by phones with numeric keypads. ENUM is the in-between method to map numbers to more flexible addressing until we have smarter phones on our desks and we can use the more flexible addressing methods to dial the other party. As I've said, I am a firm believer in ENUM as a second-generation VoIP routing method, but I'm just as firm a believer (due to very hard-won experience in the PBX and carrier markets) that it is insufficient at this time to make any difference at all in anything other than the most theoretical environments, or environments that have been jury-rigged to use ENUM because there was nothing better available. JT ___ Asterisk-Users mailing
Re: [Asterisk-Users] New ENUM service, what do you think?
John Todd wrote: I strongly disagree with your summary that TRIP doesn't help the smaller user. In fact, the reason I'm so strongly an advocate of some type of TRIP development is that it removes the barriers for small entities in the pursuit of better call rates for TDM offload and VoIP interconnection. Comparative routing data should not be the sole domain of huge telephony firms. Call rates not calls... Sure the PSTN network is still the most widely used for voice calls now, but for how much longer? I'm currently in the process of doing a feasibility study and roll out to a large number of offices in Australia to route calls between offices using their existing DSL connections. Currently the main carrier is going round trying to sign everyone up on exclusivity contracts for 2 years for all voice calls, for 16c per minute... TRIP won't help there... have competing answers to the same question; it MUST have a single answer, no matter how many private ENUM servers you put in the path Erm no, we're already working out patches for asterisk to deal with multiple answers, including dealing with tel fields in a sane manner... The whole purpose of TRIP is to route calls via the equivalent of carriers, how many of those carriers will let you add your voip records to their database and take revenue away from them? TRIP is all about centralised control away from the end user, while it might give them short term benefits in being able to save a few dollars here and there long term they will be locked into using carriers for internet to internet calls that they could be making for free. While enum doesn't have the ability to make cost decisions directly what you are suggesting would require everyone to sign up with all providers, or have a shared database of user details or some where in between and wouldn't that leave the end user open to being slammed? spammed? or many other things by companies trying to get ahead? Like many things in this world they all would work perfectly in theory, in practise they end up being abused till people get sick of it and just walk away to a simpler system. layers of the routing protocol. Additionally, I am unclear on how you believe that TRIP is involved in IP routing smarts. The two are not linked in any way. Can you clarify? Sure, internet to internet calls are already paid for in the leasing of bandwidth, why pay a phone company to route the call via IP for you when it could be done at no additional cost? I am uncertain to what your final comments about spam refer. Neither ENUM nor TRIP address issues of call validation in a realistic manner; any SPF-like methods for verifying origination work equally well with either reference scheme. Remember that ENUM is a stopgap, and we should do all we can to move away from numbers as an addressing scheme for VoIP I don't think it was designed as a stop gap, more likely as a method of more easily tracking people with public records that didn't need a search warrant to access them... TRIP is I see it, is a method of routing calls more then working out where to send the call to directly. enum points out specifically where the call should go and could be used in reverse to find out where the call should have come from. (or any protocol) delivery. My SIP phone address is [EMAIL PROTECTED] but the only reason most people can't use that is because they are crippled by phones with numeric keypads. ENUM is the in-between method to map numbers to more flexible addressing until we have smarter phones on our desks and we can use the more flexible addressing methods to dial the other party. I don't want something as large as a small laptop to lug around to make phone calls with, if you ever do a reasonable amount of SMS'ing you will learn how much of a pain in the a** that can be. Using a single number as a point of reference to all the contact information on a company or a person within a company would be very useful to me. To send an email I could use his enum number, to contact him via icq I could use his enum number, to make a phone call I could use his enum number, to fax him I could use his enum number then have the fax machine lookup his email address and route the image via that instead. As I've said, I am a firm believer in ENUM as a second-generation VoIP routing method, but I'm just as firm a believer (due to very hard-won experience in the PBX and carrier markets) that it is insufficient at this time to make any difference at all in anything other than the most theoretical environments, or environments that have been jury-rigged to use ENUM because there was nothing better available. From your email you are hinting that TRIP is a stop gap measure between pure internet telephony and the PSTN network, I'm suggesting enum is a longer term point to point method, while it may seem stop gap in a hybrid system long term it will be the best method of the 2, if you don't
Re: [Asterisk-Users] New ENUM service, what do you think?
Joe Baptista wrote: agreed - you see alot of business fluff - but the technicals are very important and on many of these ventures they fail to include them. As far as I'm aware they are providing an internet exchange peering point for voip providers, and to get access to their enum zone you need to sign NDA's and other agreements and buy rack/IP/port space from them and the whole point is to buy and sell minutes between providers. These NDA's prevent them from releasing any information on number ranges or URLs to anyone not signed up. -- Best regards, Duane http://www.cacert.org - Free Security Certificates http://www.nodedb.com - Think globally, network locally http://www.sydneywireless.com - Telecommunications Freedom http://happysnapper.com.au - Sell your photos over the net! http://e164.org - Using Enum.164 to interconnect asterisk servers ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] New ENUM service, what do you think?
On Sat, 1 May 2004, Dean Collins wrote: Yes but no information about how this will operate, what regulation or restrictions on joining, what connection protocols will be used etc etc agreed - you see alot of business fluff - but the technicals are very important and on many of these ventures they fail to include them. regards joe www.baptista.god Cheers, Dean -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Reid A. Forrest Sent: Saturday, 1 May 2004 8:21 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Asterisk-Users] New ENUM service, what do you think? From http://www.thevpf.com/ To join, please e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] or telephone 1-212-232-2020 (Mon-Fri 9AM-5PM EST). -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of jimfl Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 5:11 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] New ENUM service, what do you think? Jim/frank, Can you give us more information about how to access this enum? I've been to the stealth web site and there is no information about access. I look forward with interest to what you have up and running today for asterisk users to benefit from. Cheers, Dean Sorry, I am not associated with Stealth in any way. Just saw the news story and thought it would be of interest to Asterisk users. It sounds like you don't have to be a VOIP provider to get access to their service. They talk about businesses using the service. If anyone finds out how to get access to their service, please post. Jim ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] New ENUM service, what do you think?
Jim/frank, Can you give us more information about how to access this enum? I've been to the stealth web site and there is no information about access. I look forward with interest to what you have up and running today for asterisk users to benefit from. Cheers, Dean -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of jimfl Sent: Saturday, 1 May 2004 6:03 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Asterisk-Users] New ENUM service, what do you think? Stealth Communications Announces Registry to Avoid Access Fees Posted on: 04/23/2004 Stealth Communications Inc. today announced the official launch of a registry that allows service providers routing calls over the Internet to avoid paying local phone companies access charges. The VPF ENUM Registry allows carriers to map telephone numbers to IP addresses for such things as SIP phones and e-mail servers, Stealth announced at telx's Customer Business Exchange meeting in New York City. A phone call routed to a number listed in the registry would be terminated over the Internet, rather than over the traditional phone network controlled by the regional Bells and other local exchange carriers. The registry has the potential to drastically reduce the operating expenses of VoIP carriers because it allows them to terminate directly on each others network at zero cost, Stealth Founder and CEO Shrihari Pandit said. Stealth says the registry, which holds more than 1 million numbers, is not limited to service providers. Educational institutions, municipal governments and businesses can use the registry, it said. According to the company, current participants include Acropolis Telecom, Addaline.Com, Free World Dialup, MIT, Net2Phone, Packet8 and Yale University. http://www.phoneplusmag.com/hotnews/44h2316756.html http://www.thevpf.com/pr/2004-04-01-VPF-ENUM.pdf http://www.stealth.net/ ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] New ENUM service, what do you think?
Jim/frank, Can you give us more information about how to access this enum? I've been to the stealth web site and there is no information about access. I look forward with interest to what you have up and running today for asterisk users to benefit from. Cheers, Dean Sorry, I am not associated with Stealth in any way. Just saw the news story and thought it would be of interest to Asterisk users. It sounds like you don't have to be a VOIP provider to get access to their service. They talk about businesses using the service. If anyone finds out how to get access to their service, please post. Jim ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] New ENUM service, what do you think?
From http://www.thevpf.com/ To join, please e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] or telephone 1-212-232-2020 (Mon-Fri 9AM-5PM EST). -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of jimfl Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 5:11 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] New ENUM service, what do you think? Jim/frank, Can you give us more information about how to access this enum? I've been to the stealth web site and there is no information about access. I look forward with interest to what you have up and running today for asterisk users to benefit from. Cheers, Dean Sorry, I am not associated with Stealth in any way. Just saw the news story and thought it would be of interest to Asterisk users. It sounds like you don't have to be a VOIP provider to get access to their service. They talk about businesses using the service. If anyone finds out how to get access to their service, please post. Jim ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] New ENUM service, what do you think?
Yes but no information about how this will operate, what regulation or restrictions on joining, what connection protocols will be used etc etc Cheers, Dean -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Reid A. Forrest Sent: Saturday, 1 May 2004 8:21 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [Asterisk-Users] New ENUM service, what do you think? From http://www.thevpf.com/ To join, please e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] or telephone 1-212-232-2020 (Mon-Fri 9AM-5PM EST). -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of jimfl Sent: Saturday, May 01, 2004 5:11 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] New ENUM service, what do you think? Jim/frank, Can you give us more information about how to access this enum? I've been to the stealth web site and there is no information about access. I look forward with interest to what you have up and running today for asterisk users to benefit from. Cheers, Dean Sorry, I am not associated with Stealth in any way. Just saw the news story and thought it would be of interest to Asterisk users. It sounds like you don't have to be a VOIP provider to get access to their service. They talk about businesses using the service. If anyone finds out how to get access to their service, please post. Jim ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] New ENUM service, what do you think?
if too many of these services get up its just as bad a space as we were in before. Agreed, since they have signed up Packet8 and Net2Phone they have a pretty good head start as far as US VOIP providers. It will be interesting to see if/what Vonage, VoicePulse, CallVantage (ATT), BroadVoice, do. Jim ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
