Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism TBH the more publicity the better.I just feel bad I've been so stressed I haven't even touched the project in a few days. There's a lot going on, I'm working with someone to try to synthesize a theory of disability with some theory people and I've got a lot of reading ahead of me. I'm so overwhelmed by everything. I'm getting contacted by a lot of people, a lot of disabled people, people who work in various accessibility technologies who are fed up with this shit. Everything we're doing is kinda crazy tbh. It's really important to firmly ground accessibility and disability in materialism. Currently, most people look at disability as a set of cookie cutters, like "blind" or "deaf" and not the vibrant and complex reality it is, and everyone is taking the price for it. The more I've talked about this issue with other circles the more clear its becoming how important everything is. Max will be released in February (if there's an issue I'll let you know). I need to redo some of the audio stuff which is annoying. Currently I have the following things in my way:- sound- input- vision- menuAnd menu is pretty small. Most of this should be documentation and I don't expect much major refactoring beyond this sound part. I may put off fixing a few of the quirky bugs in vision for now just so I can get the base engine out there.The most important thing for this project right now is just to get people experimenting with building games with it, even if its just small stuff. Or at least testing the demo for bugs and stuff. I just hope my anxiety over everything doesn't hold up production too long. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/496869/#p496869 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism So, when Max is released, should we spread the word, on Twitter and such? Or would that attract the wrong kind of attention, from MSFTEnable and such? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/496200/#p496200 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism @60, tell me about it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/496157/#p496157 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Thanks for this info I will look into it.We really should probably get a copyright lawyer involved but I have no idea where to look. So overwhelmed at the moment hahaha URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/496144/#p496144 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism @58, true. You should check out the OSL-3.0 -- it may suit your needs a bit better and you won't be making contributors uncomfortable (you do know that many don't like the GPL/LGPL/AGPL because of their stances). If your going to go with the GPL and friends, you should probably go with GPL 2.0, not 3.0. As for OSL 3.0, there's a very good summary of the license here that outlines the problems with the GPL and the OSL's way of solving those issues.In some ways I like the GPL/LGPL/AGPL... they're fine licenses. Butin some cases they're also very trivial for corporations to misuse or abuse. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/496125/#p496125 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism @58, true. You should check out the OSL-3.0 -- it may suit your needs a bit better and you won't be making contributors uncomfortable (you do know that many don't like the GPL/LGPL/AGPL because of their stances). If your going to go with the GPL and friends, you should probably go with GPL 2.0, not 3.0. As for OSL 3.0, there's a very good summary of the license here that outlines the problems with the GPL and the OSL's way of solving those issues. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/496125/#p496125 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism The main reason is because you want to prevent this code from simply being gobbled up by large corporations and we can use the FSF to legally defend our code from them if they try.However, we still have to be practical about it. This is why we should use mostly LGPL for actual code and focus on library development, and use GPL for things like dev tools and stuff like that. We need to restrict code but not so much that it actually chokes the ability for people to actually use it. LGPL is the perfect license for Max because it prevents microsoft from just stealing our code legally, not paying a dime and investing millions to push us out of the market. Since they own the code they are just getting free labor out of us. When the community owns the code, we reap the value of our own labor.I know Richard Stallman sucks but we should at least take advantage of what we can here. We need to actually put pressure on these guys, not work with them. If we work with them they are just going to absorb us into their construct and we will not gain control over accessibility. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/496112/#p496112 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism @56, I'm curious why you want to use copyleft licenses as much as possible. Remember, I did post a link that noted a trend that people were moving away from those licenses as open-source software becomes more mainstream. I get the collaborative aspect and the open-source aspect, just curious on why you want copyleft as much as possible. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/496061/#p496061 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Alright, so here's the deal. I am working on a project, but I want to stress that this by no means should not be the only project that audiogames is producing collectively. However these collective projects should have a few things in common:- They should be focused on accessibility for the blind (at the very least)- They should be FOSS (GPL, LGPL, MIT etc). We should use copyleft licenses aggressively. This is a suggestion but the rule of thumb I follow is, if its a tool that is used to create stuff its always GPL. If its a library its LGPL and anything small can be MIT/MS-PL etc. Under no circumstances should any of these projects be private, we can reserve privatization for things like games and similar products.- We should use FOSS programming structure towards our advantage in the project - by using it as a means to reduce the hierarchy between dev and end user. This means that we should focus on designs that allow the end user to modify the product, which help push out private competition.- We should focus our development on material principles. (I think this should be easy for us though lol)- They should be collaborative from anyone, which means that you should probably be using git.- We should develop these projects with the idea in mind that this is part of a larger accessibility project as a whole - we can cross over code and things like that. If we are developing similar libraries they should use the same resources if possible.Max's main design philosophy that makes it so different that I want to see experimented with on other projects is the idea that the problem with modern accessibility is the hierarchy between the developer and the end user. This hierarchy is caused by the privatization of code - if this code was open source it would be able to be modified and accessible mods would be trivial to make. This is, at its core, what makes it so different from other accessibility solutions (and game dev solutions in general tbh). Instead of making a game where every part is compiled into an engine, its a game where a lot of the most common engine elements are referenced as libraries, and the abstract software contracts (such as interfaces) are the only real fundamental design structure to the engine, as opposed to the entire binary.What I can do is attach these projects to the Max project and try to bring more awareness to them. Max has a lot of cross over between the sighted and blind, and so it will probably receive a lot of attention once people realize what we're doing. We can use Max's clout and attention to try to push a wider accessibility angle. I really think that I have a huge hot coal in my hands.I will be releasing the first release of the engine in February and will have a lot more technical documentation on the design philosophy then.To help, you can do the following:- Test the engine's demo when releases are made.- Test games made in the engine.- Build games in the engine.- Tell friends about the engine/projectBut to be frank the big ones are testing and building games. The more developer involvement we get with the project the better. But not knowing code is by no means a limitation. Maybe you have an idea for an accessibility idea that follows this radical design philosophy - bring it up! Maybe one of the devs CAN bring it to life! That's what it means to work together. We cover each other's weaknesses. Just like how I'm trying to connect sighted people with audio games, there's no way I could have even done that without your input. That's how we roll. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/496023/#p496023 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Alright, so here's the deal. I am working on a project, but I want to stress that this by no means should not be the only project that audiogames is producing collectively. However these collective projects should have a few things in common:- They should be focused on accessibility for the blind (at the very least)- They should be FOSS (GPL, LGPL, MIT etc). We should use copyleft licenses aggressively. This is a suggestion but the rule of thumb I follow is, if its a tool that is used to create stuff its always GPL. If its a library its LGPL and anything small can be MIT/MS-PL etc. Under no circumstances should any of these projects be private, we can reserve privatization for things like games and similar products.- We should use FOSS programming structure towards our advantage in the project - by using it as a means to reduce the hierarchy between dev and end user. This means that we should focus on designs that allow the end user to modify the product, which help push out private competition.- We should focus our development on material principles. (I think this should be easy for us though lol)- They should be collaborative from anyone, which means that you should probably be using git.- We should develop these projects with the idea in mind that this is part of a larger accessibility project as a whole - we can cross over code and things like that. If we are developing similar libraries they should use the same resources if possible.Max's main design philosophy that makes it so different that I want to see experimented with on other projects is the idea that the problem with modern accessibility is the hierarchy between the developer and the end user. This hierarchy is caused by the privatization of code - if this code was open source it would be able to be modified and accessible mods would be trivial to make. This is, at its core, what makes it so different from other accessibility solutions (and game dev solutions in general tbh). Instead of making a game where every part is compiled into an engine, its a game where a lot of the most common engine elements are referenced as libraries, and the abstract software contracts (such as interfaces) are the only real fundamental design structure to the engine, as opposed to the entire binary.What I can do is attach these projects to the Max project and try to bring more awareness to them. Max has a lot of cross over between the sighted and blind, and so it will probably receive a lot of attention once people realize what we're doing. We can use Max's clout and attention to try to push a wider accessibility angle. I really think that I have a huge hot coal in my hands.To help, you can do the following:- Test the engine's demo when releases are made.- Test games made in the engine.- Build games in the engine.- Tell friends about the engine/projectBut to be frank the big ones are testing and building games. The more developer involvement we get with the project the better. But not knowing code is by no means a limitation. Maybe you have an idea for an accessibility idea that follows this radical design philosophy - bring it up! Maybe one of the devs CAN bring it to life! That's what it means to work together. We cover each other's weaknesses. Just like how I'm trying to connect sighted people with audio games, there's no way I could have even done that without your input. That's how we roll. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/496023/#p496023 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism @54, trust me, corporations will do whatever they can for money.Question: how "accurate" or "good" is the WCAG? Like, what is the "quality" rating, from 1 to 10, with 10 being the best? One way we can increase overall accessibility is to aid the W3C in revising them to be more "apt" for disabled persons. I'd say "make it a legal requirement" if I knew it would do anything, but I doubt legalizing it would do anything useful for us. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495935/#p495935 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism @54, trust me, corporations will do whatever they can for money.Question: how "accurate" or "good" is the WCAG? Like, what is the "quality" rating, from 1 to 10, with 10 being the best? One way we can increase overall accessibility is to aid the W3C in revising them to be more "apt" for disabled persons. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495935/#p495935 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism @54, trust me, corporations will do whatever they can for money.Question: how "accurate" or "good" are the WCAG? Liek, what is the "quality" rating, from 1 to 10, with 10 being the best? One way we can increase overall accessibility is to aid he W3C in revising them tobe more "apt" for disabled persons. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495935/#p495935 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism If this is the case and it is going to be this much of a fight for us to take control of accessibility standards away from these huge corporations, then I'd like to help in some way. I can't code a line of this stuff to save my life, but if there's anything us forimites can do to speed up this process and insure it runs as smoothly as it can, please let us know. I think I can speak for the majority here when I say that we don't want accessibility capitalized upon like that. If things continue on the way they have been, life for blind people could grow tougher as more companies start holding us up like trophies, which is what I'm guessing is happening here. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495933/#p495933 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism It doesn't seem like copyrighting "game accessibility" would work. If they did that, every audio game would be infringing it... that would be stupid too. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495910/#p495910 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Hahaha nobody told that to Freedom Scientific apparentlyThe problem is actually that the way we build games forces people to copyright at least some of the accessibility features they implement. While the design strategy may not be copyrighted, the code to actually implement it is, and copyrighting this code means that other people can't use the same code. So what happens in the industry is you get a whole industry of UX accessibility experts who are contracted out when we could, idk, just make an environment where all those things are referenced. Since these are libraries being referenced on your computer and not compiled binaries, we can make that part of the code copyleft while game devs can still distribute their games. That's what Max is trying to do.Also, various big names like MS and Epic are trying to throw their hat into the ring. I think Epic is actually the biggest problem because they're already signing contracts with FS to implement JAWS into UE4. They're very clearly trying to push the accessibility angle as a woke marketing pointAnd yes this is actually how it works I'm not making this shit up its really this dumb URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495911/#p495911 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Hahaha nobody told that to Freedom Scientific apparentlyThe problem is actually that the way we build games forces people to copyright at least some of the accessibility features they implement. While the design strategy may not be copyrighted, the code to actually implement it is, and copyrighting this code means that other people can't use the same code. So what happens in the industry is you get a whole industry of UX accessibility experts who are contracted out when we could, idk, just make an environment where all those things are referenced. Since these are libraries being referenced on your computer and not compiled binaries, we can make that part of the code copyleft while game devs can still distribute their games.And yes this is actually how it works I'm not making this shit up its really this dumb URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495911/#p495911 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Copyrightig "accessible games" is pretty much an impossibility, your pretty much then copyrighting "accessible software", which just won't work. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495910/#p495910 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism @49 - I'll have to look into in more detail. I think BS Framework is actually doing something a bit different. Max is literally a set of external libraries, while this appears to be more just a set of tools used to build games. I think it's more like an open source DirectX but focused around game development than anything. The idea is that the fully compiled game would be much smaller because , and I'm not sure how BSF actually compiles things. If its still compiling directly from source it still won't occupy Max's actual niche (although it might be possible to migrate Max later to be compatible with BSF).Idk about QT, I would have to look into it and I've never heard of it. I would have to see what capabilities it has.I've already designed some of the core game library components, its very simple stuff tbh, the graphics/audio are probably the most difficult components and they may end up just being borrowed from other open source libraries. BTW Max's libraries are licensed under LGPL or MIT.It's in C# right now bc of ease of working with Unity and Monogame, but I plan on building out a specification so that it can be migrated to both C++ and Python. The main core design theory behind Max is that 1) its a set of libraries that are referenced, not a compiled binary, 2) the software contracts where the core of the design should be so that the insides can be changed by end users and 3) it can be used as a standalone product or in other engines.Notice how the game engine is designed heavily with moddability in mind; I don't really think any engine on the market offers this environment out of the box, moddability usually has to be built into stuff.@50 - The competition threat is kind of difficult to explain but basically MS and Epic are trying to occupy different regions of the gaming accessibility market by implementing small changes into their engines/machines. The reason why this is a problem is because if they own the copyright they can hide the code and/or control how its used. This takes away blind people from the ability to design their own software.Because of changes in the ADA that will likely happen if gaming accessibility becomes more commonplace, this allows companies like Microsoft and Epic to secure this side of the market using accessibility as leverage.Now, because Max already exists we don't have to worry about the idea being copyrighted because I literally own it, however, Microsoft/Epic will try to do everything to stop it once they realize just how dangerous Max is to securing that piece of the pie. Max uses its open source and modular design to get around a lot of things that are just not possible with a proprietary approach to accessibility and this means they will have to react or they will lose this possible market advantage. Basically, they care more about profits than you and will try to take down anything that will threaten that URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495906/#p495906 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism @49 - I'll have to look into in more detail. I think BS Framework is actually doing something a bit different. Max is literally a set of external libraries, while this appears to be more just a set of tools used to build games. I think it's more like an open source DirectX but focused around game development than anything. The idea is that the fully compiled game would be much smaller because , and I'm not sure how BSF actually compiles things. If its still compiling directly from source it still won't occupy Max's actual niche (although it might be possible to migrate Max later to be compatible with BSF).Idk about QT, I would have to look into it and I've never heard of it. I would have to see what capabilities it has.I've already designed some of the core game library components, its very simple stuff tbh, the graphics/audio are probably the most difficult components and they may end up just being borrowed from other open source libraries. BTW Max's libraries are licensed under LGPL or MIT.It's in C# right now bc of ease of working with Unity and Monogame, but I plan on building out a specification so that it can be migrated to both C++ and Python. The main core design theory behind Max is that 1) its a set of libraries that are referenced, not a compiled binary, 2) the software contracts where the core of the design should be so that the insides can be changed by end users and 3) it can be used as a standalone product or in other engines.Notice how the game engine is designed heavily with moddability in mind; I don't really think any engine on the market offers this environment.@50 - The competition threat is kind of difficult to explain but basically MS and Epic are trying to occupy different regions of the gaming accessibility market by implementing small changes into their engines/machines. The reason why this is a problem is because if they own the copyright they can hide the code and/or control how its used. This takes away blind people from the ability to design their own software.Because of changes in the ADA that will likely happen if gaming accessibility becomes more commonplace, this allows companies like Microsoft and Epic to secure this side of the market using accessibility as leverage.Now, because Max already exists we don't have to worry about the idea being copyrighted because I literally own it, however, Microsoft/Epic will try to do everything to stop it once they realize just how dangerous Max is to securing that piece of the pie. Max uses its open source and modular design to get around a lot of things that are just not possible with a proprietary approach to accessibility and this means they will have to react or they will lose this possible market advantage. Basically, they care more about profits than you and will try to take down anything that will threaten that URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495906/#p495906 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism @49 - I'll have to look into in more detail. I think BS Framework is actually doing something a bit different. Max is literally a set of external libraries, while this appears to be more just a set of tools used to build games. I think it's more like an open source DirectX but focused around game development than anything. The idea is that the fully compiled game would be much smaller because , and I'm not sure how BSF actually compiles things. If its still compiling directly from source it still won't occupy Max's actual niche (although it might be possible to migrate Max later to be compatible with BSF).Idk about QT, I would have to look into it and I've never heard of it. I would have to see what capabilities it has.I've already designed some of the core game library components, its very simple stuff tbh, the graphics/audio are probably the most difficult components and they may end up just being borrowed from other open source libraries. BTW Max's libraries are licensed under LGPL or MIT.It's in C# right now bc of ease of working with Unity and Monogame, but I plan on building out a specification so that it can be migrated to both C++ and Python. The main core design theory behind Max is that 1) its a set of libraries that are referenced, not a compiled binary, 2) the software contracts where the core of the design should be so that the insides can be changed by end users and 3) it can be used as a standalone product or in other engines.Notice how the game engine is designed heavily with moddability in mind; I don't really think any engine on the market offers this environment.@50 - The competition threat is kind of difficult to explain but basically MS and Epic are trying to occupy different regions of the gaming accessibility market by implementing small changes into their engines/machines. The reason why this is a Now, because Max already exists we don't have to worry about the idea being copyrighted because I literally own it, URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495906/#p495906 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Daigonight, I'm a bit confused on a couple things.First off, about Microsoft and Epic feeling threatened. Suppose they did find out about this project and try to take legal action. I believe something similar may have happened between FS and NVAccess, and if it hasn't it very well could have. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't FS take NVAccess to court? If they did, it didn't work, and if they tried now it still wouldn't work. This is because of the nature of NVDA. Yes, FS probably could shut down NVAccess if they wanted to. The problem is, someone could just bring NVDA back up again. You cannot silence open-sourced software, no matter what you try. Therefore, what threat could Microsoft/Epic pose to this project?I'd also like to ask, what could happen if we aren't quick enough to come up with accessibility solutions before the corporation's do? I know it can't be anything good, but I don't really know the full extent to which this could affect us. Would you mind elaborating on that a little bit, or linking me to examples of the ways this could cause problems? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495873/#p495873 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism @48, this sounds like similar to what BS::Framework is doing and, to an extent, what QT provides. BS::FRamework provides physics, graphics, input, texture loading and all that, but it does't provide accessibility out of the box (though that could be done trivially). QT is not primarily used as a game toolkit, and its probably the last thing you'd use for a game (or think of using). However, if you look at all the modules it provides, it provides literally everything except physics, a 3D GUI, and a good 3D audio engine (unless your in QML). But looking at the modules on the link I just linked to, you could easily make a game with it and tie in accessibility, sound, 3D GUI support and all that, and let QT handle the 3D drawing, networking and such. (Yes. I know it sounds obsurd to use QT of all things. But it does provide pretty much everything you could ever need for a game. The only barrier to entry is the licensing of it, but it does have an LGPL option. However, the open-source market is steadily moving away from copyleft licenses and more towards permissive ones.)As for the C# part of the engine, could that be moved to something more interoperable like C/C++? C# is nice, and I do love it for that, but the one thing it lacks is the ability to expose functions like C can to other languages. The reason I'm asking is, with enough time, we could make bindings for the engine in other languages (i.e. Go, Python, Rust, etc). URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495841/#p495841 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism @48, this sounds like similar to what BS::Framework is doing and, to an extent, what QT provides. BS::FRamework provides physics, graphics, input, texture loading and all that, but it does't provide accessibility out of the box (though that could be done trivially). QT is not primarily used as a game toolkit, and its probably the last thing you'd use for a game (or think of using). However, if you look at all the modules it provides, it provides literally everything except physics, a 3D GUI, and a good 3D audio engine (unless your in QML). But looking at the modules on the link I just linked to, you could easily make a game with it and tie in accessibility, sound, 3D GUI support and all that, and let QT handle the 3D drawing, networking and such. (Yes. I know it sounds obsurd to use QT of all things. But it does provide pretty much everything you could ever need for a game. The only barrier to entry is the licensing of it, but it does have an LGPL option. However, the open-source market is steadily moving away from copyleft licenses and more towards permissive ones.) URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495841/#p495841 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism @48, this sounds like similar to what BS::Framework is doing and, to an extent, what QT provides. BS::FRamework provides physics, graphics, input, texture loading and all that, but it does't provide accessibility out of the box (though that could be done trivially). QT is not primarily used as a game toolkit, and its probably the last thing you'd use for a game (or think of using). However, if you look at all the modules it provides, it provides literally everything except physics, a 3D GUI, and a good 3D audio engine (unless your in QML). But looking at the modules on the link I just linked to, you could easily make a game with it and tie in accessibility, sound, 3D GUI support and all that, and let QT handle the 3D drawing, networking and such. (Yes. I know it sounds obsurd to use QT of all things. But it does provide pretty much everything you could ever need for a game.) URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495841/#p495841 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Look at it this way.We are audiogames.net. We all came here to play video games.Well I'm building an open source game engine that I'm saying anyone can help contribute towards, either as testing and providing feedback, through using the engine in your own games or even contributing through code. I want to start assembling once I get the first release out, and I will also be trying to get support on the sighted side as well to finally bridge this gap. I'm also working with other disabled people to try to cover other accessibility needs in the project.I'll go into more technical detail when I release the first release but Max basically changes things by acting like a library of core game functions such as input, graphics, sound, and navigation (which is the blind accessibility component) into a single set of common libraries that can be overridden and modded in a lot of ways. This basically means any game that is developed with Max will be highly moddable, have a lot of the basic code for stuff like inputs etc be open source and replaceable, all with built in accessibility. This means any game built with max can be made accessible to some extent. And this thing can be injected in other game engines like Unity and UE4 most likely, its all C#.That's what I'm saying. We build this fucking thing together. There's no way I can do it on my own. I do want to still work on my game Colors (its called Spectrum now) and use it as a vehicle to try to get the project going. While this is happening I also want to help promote games that are developed with Max. This way Max isn't just "me doing some work for some blind people" but literally a force of all the small contributions of blind people put together, taking advantage of open source in the market to try to seize markets from corporations before they can even settle down. The more we can infiltrate this way the more the blind and the disabled in general can have control over their own software and eventually hardware.The reason why I think we should build this is because it works right in line with what the industry actually uses, but it also is an audiogame engine in of itself. In addition it's built from a bunch of parts so people can choose what libraries they need to use - some games may only use for example the accessibility library if they already have everything else. Also, its accessibility navigation is automated to be easier for sighted people to develop for. And all this basically puts everything in one place.I've taken a year off from work to develop the engine and the game. It's actually 3 parts - the max core engine, which is basically just a bare bones game engine, an RPG engine that's basically open source accessible RPG maker, and the game itself which will be sold as a game. By the end of the year I want to have enough work done where the core engine is essentially complete outside of bug fixes, the RPG engine and game are in development and we are working towards crowdfunding.We can use crowdfunding as both a means to get more money to help develop but also a PR tool more importantly. This gets our message out there and introduces how we are radicalizing disability. In addition, having it be the collaborative effort of a lot of disabled people all around instead of just being me makes it authentic and really have bite force. My main goal for the crowdfunding is to fund local artists to help work on the project, and build a studio so they can record music for it as well as have a free studio for them to use. This keeps the costs low since I will take on most of the dev work of the project; everything is ultimately voluntary but FFS I wanna build a goddamn engine that connects blind and sighted gaming. The money is just a means to an end for the project.What this project does is gives a hard material demonstration that the way that the industry is approaching accessibility is wrong. The parts are designed so end users can do whatever they want with it - in this sense, the development process is split between the dev and the end user instead of being delivered to them. This means that if people develop with this engine if people forget to add accessibility we just have to build a "max mod" for it and then bam game is accessible.Think about what implications that has for other industries. Not only this, but it also allows us to own the code and "squat" on the market and push out competition, similar to what NVDA is doing. If we do this it will also help empower NVDA.A few friends of mine are also obviously exploring the possibility for material disability theory. I'm curious to know what Dark actually wrote about since it seems reflective of a systemic issue with academia and disability. Combine this theory with this project and a hard material demonstration of "see? Look, blind people can do it too" and r
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Look at it this way.We are audiogames.net. We all came here to play video games.Well I'm building an open source game engine that I'm saying anyone can help contribute towards, either as testing and providing feedback, through using the engine in your own games or even contributing through code. I want to start assembling once I get the first release out, and I will also be trying to get support on the sighted side as well to finally bridge this gap. I'm also working with other disabled people to try to cover other accessibility needs in the project.I'll go into more technical detail when I release the first release but Max basically changes things by acting like a library of core game functions such as input, graphics, sound, and navigation (which is the blind accessibility component) into a single set of common libraries that can be overridden and modded in a lot of ways. This basically means any game that is developed with Max will be highly moddable, have a lot of the basic code for stuff like inputs etc be open source and replaceable, all with built in accessibility. This means any game built with max can be made accessible to some extent. And this thing can be injected in other game engines like Unity and UE4 most likely, its all C#.That's what I'm saying. We build this fucking thing together. There's no way I can do it on my own. I do want to still work on my game Colors (its called Spectrum now) and use it as a vehicle to try to get the project going. While this is happening I also want to help promote games that are developed with Max. This way Max isn't just "me doing some work for some blind people" but literally a force of all the small contributions of blind people put together, taking advantage of open source in the market to try to seize markets from corporations before they can even settle down. The more we can infiltrate this way the more the blind and the disabled in general can have control over their own software and eventually hardware.The reason why I think we should build this is because it works right in line with what the industry actually uses, but it also is an audiogame engine in of itself. In addition it's built from a bunch of parts so people can choose what libraries they need to use - some games may only use for example the accessibility library if they already have everything else. Also, its accessibility navigation is automated to be easier for sighted people to develop for. And all this basically puts everything in one place.I've taken a year off from work to develop the engine and the game. It's actually 3 parts - the max core engine, which is basically just a bare bones game engine, an RPG engine that's basically open source accessible RPG maker, and the game itself which will be sold as a game. By the end of the year I want to have enough work done where the core engine is essentially complete outside of bug fixes, the RPG engine and game are in development and we are working towards crowdfunding.We can use crowdfunding as both a means to get more money to help develop but also a PR tool more importantly. This gets our message out there and introduces how we are radicalizing disability. In addition, having it be the collaborative effort of a lot of disabled people all around instead of just being me makes it authentic and really have bite force. My main goal for the crowdfunding is to fund local artists to help work on the project, and build a studio so they can record music for it as well as have a free studio for them to use. This keeps the costs low since I will take on most of the dev work of the project; everything is ultimately voluntary but FFS I wanna build a goddamn engine that connects blind and sighted gaming. The money is just a means to an end for the project.What this project does is gives a hard material demonstration that the way that the industry is approaching accessibility is wrong. The parts are designed so end users can do whatever they want with it - in this sense, the development process is split between the dev and the end user instead of being delivered to them. This means that if people develop with this engine if people forget to add accessibility we just have to build a "max mod" for it and then bam game is accessible.Think about what implications that has for other industries. Not only this, but it also allows us to own the code and "squat" on the market and push out competition, similar to what NVDA is doing. If we do this it will also help empower NVDA.A few friends of mine are also obviously exploring the possibility for material disability theory. I'm curious to know what Dark actually wrote about since it seems reflective of a systemic issue with academia and disability. Combine this theory with this project and a hard material demonstration of "see? Look, blind people can do it too" and r
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Look at it this way.We are audiogames.net. We all came here to play video games.Well I'm building an open source game engine that I'm saying anyone can help contribute towards, either as testing and providing feedback, through using the engine in your own games or even contributing through code. I want to start assembling once I get the first release out, and I will also be trying to get support on the sighted side as well to finally bridge this gap. I'm also working with other disabled people to try to cover other accessibility needs in the project.I'll go into more technical detail when I release the first release but Max basically changes things by acting like a library of core game functions such as input, graphics, sound, and navigation (which is the blind accessibility component) into a single set of common libraries that can be overridden and modded in a lot of ways. This basically means any game that is developed with Max will be highly moddable, have a lot of the basic code for stuff like inputs etc be open source and replaceable, all with built in accessibility. This means any game built with max can be made accessible to some extent. And this thing can be injected in other game engines like Unity and UE4 most likely, its all C#.That's what I'm saying. We build this fucking thing together. There's no way I can do it on my own. I do want to still work on my game Colors (its called Spectrum now) and use it as a vehicle to try to get the project going. While this is happening I also want to help promote games that are developed with Max. This way Max isn't just "me doing some work for some blind people" but literally a force of all the small contributions of blind people put together, taking advantage of open source in the market to try to seize markets from corporations before they can even settle down. The more we can infiltrate this way the more the blind and the disabled in general can have control over their own software and eventually hardware.The reason why I think we should build this is because it works right in line with what the industry actually uses, but it also is an audiogame engine in of itself. In addition it's built from a bunch of parts so people can choose what libraries they need to use - some games may only use for example the accessibility library if they already have everything else. Also, its accessibility navigation is automated to be easier for sighted people to develop for. And all this basically puts everything in one place.I've taken a year off from work to develop the engine and the game. It's actually 3 parts - the max core engine, which is basically just a bare bones game engine, an RPG engine that's basically open source accessible RPG maker, and the game itself which will be sold as a game. By the end of the year I want to have enough work done where the core engine is essentially complete outside of bug fixes, the RPG engine and game are in development and we are working towards crowdfunding.We can use crowdfunding as both a means to get more money to help develop but also a PR tool more importantly. This gets our message out there and introduces how we are radicalizing disability. In addition, having it be the collaborative effort of a lot of disabled people all around instead of just being me makes it authentic and really have bite force. My main goal for the crowdfunding is to fund local artists to help work on the project, and build a studio so they can record music for it as well as have a free studio for them to use. This keeps the costs low since I will take on most of the dev work of the project; everything is ultimately voluntary but FFS I wanna build a goddamn engine that connects blind and sighted gaming. The money is just a means to an end for the project.What this project does is gives a hard material demonstration that the way that the industry is approaching accessibility is wrong. The parts are designed so end users can do whatever they want with it - in this sense, the development process is split between the dev and the end user instead of being delivered to them. This means that if people develop with this engine if people forget to add accessibility we just have to build a "max mod" for it and then bam game is accessible.Think about what implications that has for other industries. Not only this, but it also allows us to own the code and "squat" on the market and push out competition, similar to what NVDA is doing. If we do this it will also help empower NVDA.A few friends of mine are also obviously exploring the possibility for material disability theory. I'm curious to know what Dark actually wrote about since it seems reflective of a systemic issue with academia and disability. Combine this theory with this project and a hard material demonstration of "see? Look, blind people can do it too" and r
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Look at it this way.We are audiogames.net. We all came here to play video games.Well I'm building an open source game engine that I'm saying anyone can help contribute towards, either as testing and providing feedback, through using the engine in your own games or even contributing through code. I want to start assembling once I get the first release out, and I will also be trying to get support on the sighted side as well to finally bridge this gap. I'm also working with other disabled people to try to cover other accessibility needs in the project.I'll go into more technical detail when I release the first release but Max basically changes things by acting like a library of core game functions such as input, graphics, sound, and navigation (which is the blind accessibility component) into a single set of common libraries that can be overridden and modded in a lot of ways. This basically means any game that is developed with Max will be highly moddable, have a lot of the basic code for stuff like inputs etc be open source and replaceable, all with built in accessibility. This means any game built with max can be made accessible to some extent. And this thing can be injected in other game engines like Unity and UE4 most likely, its all C#.That's what I'm saying. We build this fucking thing together. There's no way I can do it on my own. I do want to still work on my game Colors (its called Spectrum now) and use it as a vehicle to try to get the project going. While this is happening I also want to help promote games that are developed with Max. This way Max isn't just "me doing some work for some blind people" but literally a force of all the small contributions of blind people put together, taking advantage of open source in the market to try to seize markets from corporations before they can even settle down. The more we can infiltrate this way the more the blind and the disabled in general can have control over their own software and eventually hardware.The reason why I think we should build this is because it works right in line with what the industry actually uses, but it also is an audiogame engine in of itself. In addition it's built from a bunch of parts so people can choose what libraries they need to use - some games may only use for example the accessibility library if they already have everything else. Also, its accessibility navigation is automated to be easier for sighted people to develop for. And all this basically puts everything in one place.I've taken a year off from work to develop the engine and the game. It's actually 3 parts - the max core engine, which is basically just a bare bones game engine, an RPG engine that's basically open source accessible RPG maker, and the game itself which will be sold as a game. By the end of the year I want to have enough work done where the core engine is essentially complete outside of bug fixes, the RPG engine and game are in development and we are working towards crowdfunding.We can use crowdfunding as both a means to get more money to help develop but also a PR tool more importantly. This gets our message out there and introduces how we are radicalizing disability. In addition, having it be the collaborative effort of a lot of disabled people all around instead of just being me makes it authentic and really have bite force. My main goal for the crowdfunding is to fund local artists to help work on the project, and build a studio so they can record music for it as well as have a free studio for them to use. This keeps the costs low since I will take on most of the dev work of the project; everything is ultimately voluntary but FFS I wanna build a goddamn engine that connects blind and sighted gaming. The money is just a means to an end for the project.What this project does is gives a hard material demonstration that the way that the industry is approaching accessibility is wrong. The parts are designed so end users can do whatever they want with it - in this sense, the development process is split between the dev and the end user instead of being delivered to them. This means that if people develop with this engine if people forget to add accessibility we just have to build a "max mod" for it and then bam game is accessible.Think about what implications that has for other industries. Not only this, but it also allows us to own the code and "squat" on the market and push out competition, similar to what NVDA is doing. If we do this it will also help empower NVDA.A few friends of mine are also obviously exploring the possibility for material disability theory. I'm curious to know what Dark actually wrote about since it seems reflective of a systemic issue with academia and disability. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495827/#p495827 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Look at it this way.We are audiogames.net. We all came here to play video games.Well I'm building an open source game engine that I'm saying anyone can help contribute towards, either as testing and providing feedback, through using the engine in your own games or even contributing through code. I want to start assembling once I get the first release out, and I will also be trying to get support on the sighted side as well to finally bridge this gap. I'm also working with other disabled people to try to cover other accessibility needs in the project.I'll go into more technical detail when I release the first release but Max basically changes things by acting like a library of core game functions such as input, graphics, sound, and navigation (which is the blind accessibility component) into a single set of common libraries that can be overridden and modded in a lot of ways. This basically means any game that is developed with Max will be highly moddable, have a lot of the basic code for stuff like inputs etc be open source and replaceable, all with built in accessibility. This means any game built with max can be made accessible to some extent. And this thing can be injected in other game engines like Unity and UE4 most likely, its all C#.That's what I'm saying. We build this fucking thing together. There's no way I can do it on my own. I do want to still work on my game Colors (its called Spectrum now) and use it as a vehicle to try to get the project going. While this is happening I also want to help promote games that are developed with Max. This way Max isn't just "me doing some work for some blind people" but literally a force of all the small contributions of blind people put together, taking advantage of open source in the market to try to seize markets from corporations before they can even settle down. The more we can infiltrate this way the more the blind and the disabled in general can have control over their own software and eventually hardware.The reason why I think we should build this is because it works right in line with what the industry actually uses, but it also is an audiogame engine in of itself. In addition it's built from a bunch of parts so people can choose what libraries they need to use - some games may only use for example the accessibility library if they already have everything else. Also, its accessibility navigation is automated to be easier for sighted people to develop for. And all this basically puts everything in one place.I've taken a year off from work to develop the engine and the game. It's actually 3 parts - the max core engine, which is basically just a bare bones game engine, an RPG engine that's basically open source accessible RPG maker, and the game itself which will be sold as a game. By the end of the year I want to have enough work done where the core engine is essentially complete outside of bug fixes, the RPG engine and game are in development and we are working towards crowdfunding.We can use crowdfunding as both a means to get more money to help develop but also a PR tool more importantly. This gets our message out there and introduces how we are radicalizing disability. In addition, having it be the collaborative effort of a lot of disabled people all around instead of just being me makes it authentic and really have bite force. My main goal for the crowdfunding is to fund local artists to help work on the project, and build a studio so they can record music for it as well as have a free studio for them to use. This keeps the costs low since I will take on most of the dev work of the project; everything is ultimately voluntary but FFS I wanna build a goddamn engine that connects blind and sighted gaming. The money is just a means to an end for the project.A few friends of mine are also obviously exploring the possibility for material disability theory. I'm curious to know what Dark actually wrote about since it seems reflective of a systemic issue with academia and disability. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495827/#p495827 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Look at it this way.We are audiogames.net. We all came here to play video games.Well I'm building an open source game engine that I'm saying anyone can help contribute towards, either as testing and providing feedback, through using the engine in your own games or even contributing through code. I want to start assembling once I get the first release out, and I will also be trying to get support on the sighted side as well to finally bridge this gap. I'm also working with other disabled people to try to cover other accessibility needs in the project.I'll go into more technical detail when I release the first release but Max basically changes things by acting like a library of core game functions such as input, graphics, sound, and navigation (which is the blind accessibility component) into a single set of common libraries that can be overridden and modded in a lot of ways. This basically means any game that is developed with Max will be highly moddable, have a lot of the basic code for stuff like inputs etc be open source and replaceable, all with built in accessibility. This means any game built with max can be made accessible to some extent. And this thing can be injected in other game engines like Unity and UE4 most likely, its all C#.That's what I'm saying. We build this fucking thing together. There's no way I can do it on my own. I do want to still work on my game Colors (its called Spectrum now) and use it as a vehicle to try to get the project going. While this is happening I also want to help promote games that are developed with Max. This way Max isn't just "me doing some work for some blind people" but literally a force of all the small contributions of blind people put together, taking advantage of open source in the market to try to seize markets from corporations before they can even settle down. The more we can infiltrate this way the more the blind and the disabled in general can have control over their own software and eventually hardware.I've taken a year off from work to develop the engine and the game. It's actually 3 parts - the max core engine, which is basically just a bare bones game engine, an RPG engine that's basically open source accessible RPG maker, and the game itself which will be sold as a game. By the end of the year I want to have enough work done where the core engine is essentially complete outside of bug fixes, the RPG engine and game are in development and we are working towards crowdfunding.We can use crowdfunding as both a means to get more money to help develop but also a PR tool more importantly. This gets our message out there and introduces how we are radicalizing disability. In addition, having it be the collaborative effort of a lot of disabled people all around instead of just being me makes it authentic and really have bite force.A few friends of mine are also obviously exploring the possibility for material disability theory. I'm curious to know what Dark actually wrote about since it seems reflective of a systemic issue with academia and disability. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495827/#p495827 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Look at it this way.We are audiogames.net. We all came here to play video games.Well I'm building an open source game engine that I'm saying anyone can help contribute towards, either as testing and providing feedback, through using the engine in your own games or even contributing through code. I want to start assembling once I get the first release out, and I will also be trying to get support on the sighted side as well to finally bridge this gap. I'm also working with other disabled people to try to cover other accessibility needs in the project.I'll go into more technical detail when I release the first release but Max basically changes things by acting like a library of core game functions such as input, graphics, sound, and navigation (which is the blind accessibility component) into a single set of common libraries that can be overridden and modded in a lot of ways. This basically means any game that is developed with Max will be highly moddable, have a lot of the basic code for stuff like inputs etc be open source and replaceable, all with built in accessibility. This means any game built with max can be made accessible to some extent. And this thing can be injected in other game engines like Unity and UE4 most likely, its all C#.That's what I'm saying. We build this fucking thing together. There's no way I can do it on my own. I do want to still work on my game Colors (its called Spectrum now) and use it as a vehicle to try to get the project going. While this is happening I also want to help promote games that are developed with Max. This way Max isn't just "me doing some work for some blind people" but literally a force of all the small contributions of blind people put together, taking advantage of open source in the market to try to seize markets from corporations before they can even settle down. The more we can infiltrate this way the more the blind and the disabled in general can have control over their own software and eventually hardware. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495827/#p495827 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism @46, I get you. I think tue ultimate issue, the ultimate challenge, is uniting this community under a common banner. But its doable, it will just take a lot of time. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495796/#p495796 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Sorry for not replying sooner I've been kind of messed up lately lol.The entire blindness thing is just turning into another useless social justice thing. When I say I don't like the blind or the ada I'm talking about the people who are outspoken about it such as the people on youtube and all these other so called advocates. I'm not talking about the average blind person sitting at home right now.This is a major problem and is a consequence of individualist identity politics. The idea being that we should "fight against the ableists" instead of actually fighting systemic issues. It's a lot easier to point a finger at a bad UBER driver or bad customer service than it is to organize and say that these institutions are inherently structured against disabled people.This is what I mean that disabled people have a conflict against the working class. Working people are expected to produce more and more while disabled people need more and more in return. The workers are too stressed and the disabled need the support. But we don't fix that problem by looking at it like they're "bad individuals". After all we've been reporting bad individuals for 30 years and nothing has really come of it on a systemic level - a lot of accessibility issues have only gotten worse.I forgot who said it, probably Dark, but the gist of the point was sole identifying characteristics, i.e. 'blind first. @27 I get your point but I feel like you are the exception not the rule. Look around ans ee how many people have 'blind' in their username, as if pointing out they are blind, or have 'blind' at the start of their username as if them being blind is the most important thing to them.I think this is less an identitiarian thing and more just the fact that blind people often only have each other so they identify closely with their community. I think the identity of blindness within the blind communities online are completely different than the identity that is assigned to . After all your identities are based on your actual material experience; you are isolated because other people treat you as isolated so it makes sense that an identity would be based around this.What I'm trying to basically say with "disability identities" is that, at large, social disability identities are deeply embedded with our views on labor and how we "should" be able to work, and disabled advocacy shouldn't be based around trying to fight a broken system but rather completely radically reconstructing it.Another problem is that so few of us contribute. I mean, only one person that I know of has expressed interest in adding guides for my Accessible Retro games project, at https://github.com/devinprater/accessible-retro-gamesIf we, the blind community, want things done, we're going to have to do them. We've waited on sighted developers, audio describers, writers, scanners, actors, so much for so long. I am not a coder, though. I am a writer, and can write documentation, and try to describe features I'd love to see, and that I think would make software better. But developers will have to help. Some blind people who may find themselves good at it will need to learn to develop.This is true but what I'm saying is we need to get started. I'm doing my part by trying to connect the other end, getting indie devs hearing about what I'm doing, other programmers, just every day people. This is why I'm focusing on Max because I'm very familiar with the project but it sounds like there may be some other ideas flying around here in this thread. If I can build the sighted side and blind people can help build out the blind side, both through testing and actual development, we can increase development interest on the sighted side. I want to stress that this project isn't just a blind project and this revolution isn't just a blind revolution; I'm talking with disabled people all over the place and we are all sick of this shit. Myself included even!I think we're straying from the topic at hand here, which is that, unless I'm misunderstanding the overall idea, that we are more than the sum of our parts and should be treated as such. It's not just about how you're made or what you're made of but who you are as a person that is representative of you as a whole, and the fact that we cannot or choose not to all unite collectively has brought us no end of shortage of resources and huge amounts of trouble when trying to develop accessible solutions.Nocturnus is completely right here. In addition, we need to start organizing our accessibility efforts instead of just making individual blind games. Putting our knowledge together to actually put pressure on corporate competition that uses their technology to rule your lives.Wow! Reading through this topic and am lovin
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Sorry for not replying sooner I've been kind of messed up lately lol.The entire blindness thing is just turning into another useless social justice thing. When I say I don't like the blind or the ada I'm talking about the people who are outspoken about it such as the people on youtube and all these other so called advocates. I'm not talking about the average blind person sitting at home right now.This is a major problem and is a consequence of individualist identity politics. The idea being that we should "fight against the ableists" instead of actually fighting systemic issues. It's a lot easier to point a finger at a bad UBER driver or bad customer service This is what I mean that disabled people have a conflict against the working class. Working people are expected to produce more and more while disabled people need more and more in return. The workers are too stressed and the disabled need the support. But we don't fix that problem by looking at it like they're "bad individuals". After all we've been reporting bad individuals for 30 years and nothing has really come of it on a systemic level - a lot of accessibility issues have only gotten worse.I forgot who said it, probably Dark, but the gist of the point was sole identifying characteristics, i.e. 'blind first. @27 I get your point but I feel like you are the exception not the rule. Look around ans ee how many people have 'blind' in their username, as if pointing out they are blind, or have 'blind' at the start of their username as if them being blind is the most important thing to them.I think this is less an identitiarian thing and more just the fact that blind people often only have each other so they identify closely with their community. I think the identity of blindness within the blind communities online are completely different than the identity that is assigned to . After all your identities are based on your actual material experience; you are isolated because other people treat you as isolated so it makes sense that an identity would be based around this.What I'm trying to basically say with "disability identities" is that, at large, social disability identities are deeply embedded with our views on labor and how we "should" be able to work, and disabled advocacy shouldn't be based around trying to fight a broken system but rather completely radically reconstructing it.Another problem is that so few of us contribute. I mean, only one person that I know of has expressed interest in adding guides for my Accessible Retro games project, at https://github.com/devinprater/accessible-retro-gamesIf we, the blind community, want things done, we're going to have to do them. We've waited on sighted developers, audio describers, writers, scanners, actors, so much for so long. I am not a coder, though. I am a writer, and can write documentation, and try to describe features I'd love to see, and that I think would make software better. But developers will have to help. Some blind people who may find themselves good at it will need to learn to develop.This is true but what I'm saying is we need to get started. I'm doing my part by trying to connect the other end, getting indie devs hearing about what I'm doing, other programmers, just every day people. This is why I'm focusing on Max because I'm very familiar with the project but it sounds like there may be some other ideas flying around here in this thread. If I can build the sighted side and blind people can help build out the blind side, both through testing and actual development, we can increase development interest on the sighted side. I want to stress that this project isn't just a blind project and this revolution isn't just a blind revolution; I'm talking with disabled people all over the place and we are all sick of this shit. Myself included even!I think we're straying from the topic at hand here, which is that, unless I'm misunderstanding the overall idea, that we are more than the sum of our parts and should be treated as such. It's not just about how you're made or what you're made of but who you are as a person that is representative of you as a whole, and the fact that we cannot or choose not to all unite collectively has brought us no end of shortage of resources and huge amounts of trouble when trying to develop accessible solutions.Nocturnus is completely right here. In addition, we need to start organizing our accessibility efforts instead of just making individual blind games. Putting our knowledge together to actually put pressure on corporate competition that uses their technology to rule your lives.Wow! Reading through this topic and am loving it! I myself am blind, of course. Right now I have no doubt people have heard of my little OS project th
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Exactly. I'm not saying get rid of Apple devices, just get rid of the dependence on them and their software, because they're a company. The only reason, when it comes down to it, for a company to exist is to make money for its investors, and as soon as they think a product is great for us, like VoiceOver on the Mac, is when they stop working hard on it. I know, Microsoft's accessibility adventure is sort of new, starting around 2015, and the Narrator team is already starting to have to make workarounds, like managing the OneCore speech with Narrator, because the pauses in sentences and such otherwise is too long. And no, changing its configuration file is not a good fix, it's just another workaround, like VOCR and other tools which we have to create or find, instead of Microsoft or Apple actually giving us the tools and help to work things out more officially. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495706/#p495706 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Exactly. Personally, I use an iOS device because at present it's what is easiest and thus most practical for me to use. Having four children to take care of means I no longer have the time to mess with my system's inner workings as I once would have. Windows intrigued me immensely because it wasn't just a put together sandbox; there was much to learn just inside system32, msconfig, services.msc and the group policy editor if you had access to that. Godmode was kind of cool when light was shed on it, and I'm not even going to get started on the registry.But my life changed and I slowly bought into Apple's eco-system. It's easier to watch netflix on an Apple TV, which gives me tons of programming to enjoy with my children. Music? Check. Podcasts? Check. Youtube? Check. Facebook Messenger so they can talk to other family relatives who don't live in the immediate area? Check. All accessible? Check. Gaming? Not check, so windows stays around. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495687/#p495687 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism @42: Yes, very true. I was "raised by the government," as I say, going to the Alabama School for the Blind and completed high school there. I'm not sure even what all misconceptions and in-built wrong ideas and thinking I have. Even on open source, my ideas are different than most peoples': I think that open source should have to compete with closed source and other open source projects in order to keep moving forward and improving. Competition, in my view, is great for every user, especially of assistive technology. Most users, that I know of, just want either open source or closed source, to win in the end. For me, I'd prefer open source, really. But if a big company can actually give me what I want, while having feedback areas, I'd use it, until something else comes along. Nowadays, I'm trying to get rid of all the Apple Fanboyism that I've stored all these years, because when something better, from Microsoft, KDE Linux, or some one else comes along, I will need to hop to that. As a community, I don't think we should hold ourselves to one company, or the government, or anyone else to save us except us. Shoot, the government is too busy getting rich of their campaign promises and kick backs from corporations and special interest groups to give a crap about legislating good ADA reforms for software use. Even if we did have such laws, companies would find a way around it. This is why feedback to companies, and creating our own stuff, is so important. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495628/#p495628 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism @JaceK, post 36, and how many of those people you mention who feel the need to parade their blindness around like a trophy, do you suppose, have been sheltered by way of segregation? Intentional or unintentional, some of the people you're railing on did not go through mainstream school, did not get the same kind of chances to interact with sighted individuals their own age until later on in life save for possibly family members who may not have treated them as equalls anyway, and either went to schools and learned through other institutions that they were either owed everything the world had to offer or that they could already do everything else just as anyone could. Both are entirely unrealistic, obviously, and both have made a rather harmful imprint on the community as a whole. This is why awareness of the issue is absolutely necessary. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495598/#p495598 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism @39True. This is a double edged sword. If this ever to be improved at least, both sides need to let go of their various misconceptions. However, you are expressing a general point of view here. Not every blind person in this comunity has the attitude you mentioned towards sighted, nore does every single sighted person has the attitude mentioned here before. It is a person to person case basis. I, for one, don't have said hostility myself, but again. Person to person case. Kinda of reminds me of what a teacher once told me,It is easier to beat the shit out of each other than look at our similarities and differences and live in peace. Its exactly what happens here. One of the things at least. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495553/#p495553 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism @39True. This is a double edged sword. If this ever to be improved at least, both sides need to let go of their various misconceptions. However, you are expressing a general point of view here. Not every blind person in this comunity has the attitude you mentioned towards sighted, nore does every single sighted person has the attitude mentioned here before. It is a person to person case basis. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495553/#p495553 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism In a way, I can almost understand the FSF's disinterest in people with disabilities. They either see Orca, Fenrir, FreeOS, Linux, Sonar, Trisquel, Speakup, Emacspeak, and many other open source projects and they "oh these blind people got this, they don't need us, they're naturally good little FOS folks." Or, they simply assume that the government or other organizations are taking care of us, because "only old people are blind people obviously and our boys in the government take care of them."Yes, it is awful that the FSF and other large open source organizations won't help us. But, when you're an open source community, you're loose enough to think, "Well, some one else can take care of the disabled people. We don't have the expertise, or the funding, or a disabled person on the board, and we definitely don't want to make any mistakes so let's just put up a page with a few reasons and hope it keeps the activists away." This is the one great thing about companies, with hired people and, at least, slight accountability to users and such, they have to give a crap, at least, like Google, slightly, about accessibility. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495550/#p495550 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism @38:Blind society (yeah I'm using that term) does the exact same thing though, thinking other disabilities are less than themselves however, note the hostility I mentioned toward 'the sighted' from forum users in at least this community. I've not checked other commmunities, but at least here there's a hostility toward 'the sighted' unles they are making something people want, then it it is ass kissing time. I do think however, that there's definitely a sense of, and I'll use blindness as an example.Society has its ideas on what a blind person is, what they can and can't do. But blind society is exactly the same, except they apply the ideas society has, to other disabilities and society as a whole, because they aren't (in a blindd person's view) doing 'enough' for them. Blindness isn't the only disability however. If it were the sole disability ever, then yes, there'd be a point. But there's so many disabilities, and more are being classed as a 'disability' so blindness has to compete with things such as deafness, losing limbs, mental conditions such as PTSD, et cetera for attention and funding, and to be paid attention to. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495525/#p495525 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Part of the problem is that the way most people think, they already have a made up version of what beeing disabled / having a disability means or what its like. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but society, whether intentionally or not; is pushing this. I always try to make people realize that a blind person and sighted person have no difference whatsoever. Bottom line, they are still human. The only thing that sets them appart is that one can see and the other cant, but so what? Beeing, having a disability however for most people seems to imply that the disabled people are different in some, huge, alien, never seen before, way. Societie's point of view on disability is this, people with disabilities have to be treated a special and different way than anyone else; this is not the case at all. The problem is that, I'll use blindness as an example, a lot of people have allowed this to become a barrier to the bigger picture, that the only difference between them and someone blind is that one cant see, but this is taken massively out of proportions. Sight, however is only one more way to interact with the world around you, and yes, it certainly opens more doors; but that doesn't mean someone without sight cannot walk through those same doors and do something as equaly well as someone with sight, they can@ daigonite, its not just hardware for blind that is ridiculously overpriced; its also, in lots of cases, software as well. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495517/#p495517 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Part of the problem is that the way most people think, they already have a made up version of what beeing disabled / having a disability means or what its like. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but society, whether intentionally or not; is pushing this. I always try to make people realize that a blind person and sighted person have no difference whatsoever. Bottom line, they are still human. The only thing that sets them appart is that one can see and the other cant, but so what? Beeing, having a disability however for most people seems to imply that the disabled people are different in some, huge, alien, never seen before, way. Societie's point of view on disability is this, people with disabilities have to be treated a special and different way than anyone else; this is not the case at all. The problem is that, I'll use blindness as an example, a lot of people have allowed this to become a barrier to the bigger picture, that the only difference between them and someone blind is that one cant see, but this is taken massively out of proportions. Sight, however is only one more way to interact with the world around you, and yes, it certainly opens more doors; but that doesn't mean someone without sight cannot walk through those same doors and do something as equaly well as someone with sight, they can URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495517/#p495517 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Wow! Reading through this topic and am loving it! I myself am blind, of course. Right now I have no doubt people have heard of my little OS project that I'm working on. Once I can get sound working, I'll be able to satisfy one of the major goals of the system -- 100-percent accessibility. In everything that I give it. I won't be able to "force" applications to be accessible... or maybe I will... but my project, while being designed for learning, could be one of those other projects that the OP was talking about. Is it much different from Max? Sure, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be.I've never allowed my disability to stop me. The word "disability" is disgusting,but alas, we have to use it. I agree fully with everything said on here. The fact hat we use eugenics to "solve" disabilities by killing the disabled person is just sad. I've fought my battles thus far and definitely don't intend to stop any time soon.As for my "identity" invovling my blindness, I am (apparently) extremely good at hiding that I'm blind. I can friend someone on Facebook and not tell them that I'm blind until well into our friendship, for example. Its not my intent, of course, but its entirely natural for me to do it because I could care less that I am a disabled person or that I have a disability. I am me, and irrespective of what I have or what I use, I am still a human being, with all th rights any other human being should have, and that's that. In some respects I'm quite happy that some people ignore the symbolism of the white cane. Yes, its helpful when I need help or when I'm crossing a road, for instance, but when I'm just chatting with a friend, having dinner, etc., the symbolism just doesn't matter. In many ways the cane is both good and bad in that espect: it helps us do a lot of things we otherwise wouldn't be able to do, yet it practically screams "Hey! Blind guy coming!" to the world, which makes it all the more obvious.As for FOSS/open source software, I'm extremely saddened that even the open-source community doesn't recognise blindness or disabilities and "modern" solutions for them. Yes, we have Orca. We have MathML. But you'd think... out of all the communities on the internet, the open-source one would be the most welcoming, the most helpful, the most encouraging, the most understanding. Its almost heartbreaking, in a way, that such a powerful community like open-source still fails to understand. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495505/#p495505 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Wow! Reading through this topic and am loving it! I myself am blind, of course. Right now I have no doubt people have heard of my little OS project that I'm working on. Once I can get sound working, I'll be able to satisfy one of the major goals of the system -- 100-percent accessibility. In everything that I give it. I won't be able to "force" applications to be accessible... or maybe I will... but my project, while being designed for learning, could be one of those other projects that the OP was talking about. Is it much different from Max? Sure, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be.I've never allowed my disability to stop me. The word "disability" is disgusting,but alas, we have to use it. I agree fully with everything said on here. The fact hat we use eugenics to "solve" disabilities by killing the disabled person is just sad. I've fought my battles thus far and definitely don't intend to stop any time soon.As for my "identity" invovling my blindness, I am (apparently) extremely good at hiding that I'm blind. I can friend someone on Facebook and not tell them that I'm blind until well into our friendship, for example. Its not my intent, of course, but its entirely natural for me to do it because I could care less that I am a disabled person or that I have a disability. I am me, and irrespective of what I have or what I use, I am still a human being, with all th rights any other human being should have, and that's that. In some respects I'm quite happy that some people ignore the symbolism of the white cane. Yes, its helpful when I need help or when I'm crossing a road, for instance, but when I'm just chatting with a friend, having dinner, etc., the symbolism just doesn't matter. In many ways the cane is both good and bad in that espect: it helps us do a lot of things we otherwise wouldn't be able to do, yet it practically screams "Hey! Blind guy coming!" to the world, which makes it all the more obvious. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495505/#p495505 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Wow! Reading through this topic and am loving it! I myself am blind, of course. Right now I have no doubt people have heard of my little OS project that I'm working on. Once I can get sound working, I'll be able to satisfy one of the major goals of the system -- 100-percent accessibility. In everything that I give it. I won't be able to "force" applications to be accessible... or maybe I will... but my project, while being designed for learning, could be one of those other projects that the OP was talking about. Is it much different from Max? Sure, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be.I've never allowed my disability to stop me. The word "disability" is disgusting,but alas, we have to use it. I agree fully with everything said on here. The fact hat we use eugenics to "solve" disabilities by killing the disabled person is just sad. I've fought my battles thus far and definitely don't intend to stop any time soon.As for my "identity" invovling my blindness, I am (apparently) extremely good at hiding that I'm blind. I can friend someone on Facebook and not tell them that I'm blind until well into our friendship, for example. Its not my intent, of course, but its entirely natural for me to do it because I could care less that I am a disabled person or that I have a disability. I am me, and irrespective of what I have or what I use, I am still a human being, with all th rights any other human being should have, and that's that. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495505/#p495505 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Wow! Reading through this topic and am loving it! I myself am blind, of course. Right now I have no doubt people have heard of my little OS project that I'm working on. Once I can get sound working, I'll be able to satisfy one of the major goals of the system -- 100-percent accessibility. In everything that I give it. I won't be able to "force" applications to be accessible... or maybe I will... but my project, while being designed for learning, could be one of those other projects that the OP was talking about. Is it much different from Max? Sure, but that doesn't mean it couldn't be.I've never allowed my disability to stop me. The word "disability" is disgusting,but alas, we have to use it. I agree fully with everything said on here. The fact hat we use eugenics to "solve" disabilities by killing the disabled person is just sad. I've fought my battles thus far and definitely don't intend to stop any time soon. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495505/#p495505 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism So why then Nocturnus do so many blind people both boil it down to 'I am blind', and ignore that they are more than that, or looking at it another way, put blind before everything else, both literally (in the case of usernames) and metaphorically then? Why do blind people divide themselves into little cliques, then and even when they come together, are hostile to each other, e.g. screenreader users, everyone is using the same basic technology, yet there's this almost...tribalism about it and outward hostility towards anyone not doing things they way /they/ do things?EDIT: TO clarify. Yes, somebody is more than not being able to seee to an arbitrary standard. However, my point is this. Despite being more than that...there's an archetype/stereotype that blind people hide all that behind this big flashing neon I AM BLIND signage and don't display who they are, instead parading, for want of a better word, their blindness as the main thing URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495486/#p495486 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism So why then Nocturnus do so many blind people both boil it down to 'I am blind', and ignore that they are more than that, or looking at it another way, put blind before everything else, both literally (in the case of usernames) and metaphorically then? Why do blind people divide themselves into little cliques, then and even when they come together, are hostile to each other, e.g. screenreader users, everyone is using the same basic technology, yet there's this almost...tribalism about it and outward hostility towards anyone not doing things they way /they/ do things? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495486/#p495486 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism I think we're straying from the topic at hand here, which is that, unless I'm misunderstanding the overall idea, that we are more than the sum of our parts and should be treated as such. It's not just about how you're made or what you're made of but who you are as a person that is representative of you as a whole, and the fact that we cannot or choose not to all unite collectively has brought us no end of shortage of resources and huge amounts of trouble when trying to develop accessible solutions. The reason NVDA is what it is today is because two guys seemingly from out of nowhere decided they wanted a free solution if at all possible, an alternative to the already established market that had been the norm for years. No, they didn't score a full victory; their battle is still ongoing, and we would do well to contribute to it in our own way.Of course, @daigonite could come in and correct me as much as necessary as this is not my topic to begin with, and I could be entirely wrong on the thoughts that inspired it, though this is my interpretation thus far. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495483/#p495483 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism But can a blind person get online with just Win10, without being taught how to use a computer with a screen reader? We are talking about blind people here, right? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495448/#p495448 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism I'd argue the two things, being able to get online, and being technically skilled are two very very different things. You can get online without being somebody who knows a lot about computers. That being said, Mac/Windows are closed source and still more popular than Linux/other open source OSes however.EDIT: As in. I can be a totally new computer user, buy a computer with W10, and get online with no technical knowledge at all based on how easy it is for modern OSes to get online and be set up by anyone. That's not a knock on OSes, it's a great thing, but it just means there's a gap between people who can get online, and who are technical. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495442/#p495442 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism I'd argue the two things, being able to get online, and being technically skilled are two very very different things. You can get online without being somebody who knows a lot about computers. That being said, Mac/Windows are closed source and still more popular than Linux/other open source OSes however. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495442/#p495442 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism No, of course not, but I do think that we represent plenty of the blind community that is technical enough to get online, and who are interested in games and such. I know, arrogant on my part, but 3 is not a small number. In any case, even though we are not the complete blind community, we should still try as hard as we can to not only do the best we can for our cause, but reach out to the rest of the community to let them know that they can change how things are, and that open source, in the hands of the blind community apart from big corporate, can do plenty for ourselves. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495438/#p495438 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism @Devin: Are people here the whole 'blind community' though? That's my point. Are you saying 30,000 or so (given registered members here) equals every blind person? I don't think that's the case at all, you can't look at everyone here and say oh that's the blind community URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495428/#p495428 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Another problem is that so few of us contribute. I mean, only one person that I know of has expressed interest in adding guides for my Accessible Retro games project, at https://github.com/devinprater/accessible-retro-gamesIf we, the blind community, want things done, we're going to have to do them. We've waited on sighted developers, audio describers, writers, scanners, actors, so much for so long. I am not a coder, though. I am a writer, and can write documentation, and try to describe features I'd love to see, and that I think would make software better. But developers will have to help. Some blind people who may find themselves good at it will need to learn to develop. There is room for writers, Youtubers, bloggers, beta testers who have attention to detail and not just want to try a "sneak peak" and the latest thing to give themselves a dopamine boost, musicians, and so much more. We just have to do something. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495417/#p495417 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism I'll circle back to the 'identity' argument. I wanted to expand on this yesterday but got sidetracked.I'll circle way back to the identity argument, DaigoniteI forgot who said it, probably Dark, but the gist of the point was sole identifying characteristics, i.e. 'blind first. @27 I get your point but I feel like you are the exception not the rule. Look around ans ee how many people have 'blind' in their username, as if pointing out they are blind, or have 'blind' at the start of their username as if them being blind is the most important thing to them.EDIT: As for price gouging, I agree, it's a 'blind tax' of sorts really.I do think blind people paying for gouged prices though doesn't help at all.EDIT #2: Okay this just occurred to me. I do think part of the problem too is that the hardware side of things locks people into being 'obvious disabledd'What do I mean? Well, using things like a Brailler, and embossser sticks out in, let's say, a computer lab. If you walked past somebody who was typing on a laptop or a computer, earbuds in, most people would just likely think oh, they're listening to music while working. Or in other words, said person isn't giving off giant I AM BLIND TREAT ME DIFFERENTLY signs. I've always thought Braille (though it does good) is part of that as well, i.e. it's a tell for blind people. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495411/#p495411 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism I'll circle back to the 'identity' argument. I wanted to expand on this yesterday but got sidetracked.I'll circle way back to the identity argument, DaigoniteI forgot who said it, probably Dark, but the gist of the point was sole identifying characteristics, i.e. 'blind first. @27 I get your point but I feel like you are the exception not the rule. Look around ans ee how many people have 'blind' in their username, as if pointing out they are blind, or have 'blind' at the start of their username as if them being blind is the most important thing to them.EDIT: As for price gouging, I agree, it's a 'blind tax' of sorts really.I do think blind people paying for gouged prices though doesn't help at all. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495411/#p495411 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism I'll circle back to the 'identity' argument. I wanted to expand on this yesterday but got sidetracked.I'll circle way back to the identity argument, DaigoniteI forgot who said it, probably Dark, but the gist of the point was sole identifying characteristics, i.e. 'blind first. @27 I get your point but I feel like you are the exception not the rule. Look around ans ee how many people have 'blind' in their username, as if pointing out they are blind, or have 'blind' at the start of their username as if them being blind is the most important thing to them. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495411/#p495411 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism @haily: VOCR is not a part of VoiceOver, though. If this were a part of VoiceOver, it would indeed be great, but it is not. I even contacted an Apple Accessibility developer, and he admitted that he created the VO+Shift+L for getting an "image caption" of the current item. He told me that he didn't think anyone would use that. What kind of crap is that? Of course people want freaking image descriptions, to play video games, to freaking enjoy stuff! These developers at big companies seem to just do things because the cool factor, not even thinking that people want as much ability to do stuff as possible, including enjoying video games.Open source is not always great either, though. See this issue: https://github.com/tvraman/emacspeak/issues/19In the years since this issue, the good Doctor Raman has added eSpeak NG support, even though it still does not have voice-lock support, doesn't work correctly on Mac, but of course creating Chess support is more important than making sure that support for an open source speech synthesizer is as good as, or greater than, support for a closed source, 20+ year old speech synthesizer which even needs hacks to run on current Linux hardware, 64-bit computers at least. But Googlers are gonna Google, and I suspect that Doctor Raman isn't much better than Victor Tsaran, who uses a Mac an iPhone instead of dogfooding the Android accessibility tools which he helps create. Gotta love corporations. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495410/#p495410 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism The entire blindness thing is just turning into another useless social justice thing. When I say I don't like the blind or the ada I'm talking about the people who are outspoken about it such as the people on youtube and all these other so called advocates. I'm not talking about the average blind person sitting at home right now. Fore example when I aply fore jobs on indeed I don't look at my blindness as something that stops me from doing things. Hell I work in a school in food service and I'm also looking at running my own lunch room or what ever through the randolf shepard act. I also thought I might leave this here.https://quillette.com/2019/12/28/access … xcellence/ URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495404/#p495404 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism That's the thing that's frustrating haily, the hardware is so much harder to actually get in the hands of blind people than software. But at least software allows us to demonstrate that the current accessibility model is completely wrong and we should be able to have more control, both as developers and as disabled people.I have heard of serious price gouging problems regarding blind hardware and I do know a lot of inefficiency is baked into the market. Instead of actually, idk encouraging hardware manufacturers for things like ovens and other utilities to have TTS/braille we have to have this market that literally exists to gouge blind people for every penny they have. Disgusting.By the way, if anyone has an old braille display that they don't want to use anymore, if they could donate it to me I could possibly help figure out a way to reverse engineer it and start building an open source braille display. That's something that needs to get done. Contact me through Discord/Twitter/forum message/email for more info, although I'm not quick to responding to forum messages. Use forum email for email it will automatically send to my email. The emailer does work despite the error message. I live in the United States so I would rather have someone ship from there so its cheaper.Just in case you missed it:discord: roger#1979twitter: labadore64EDIT: hmm apparently someone is already doing it, whats your input on this project people? It has a flexible goal which is a little worrying. If you guys don't have confidence in this project we can try to do it ourselves instead. I can help connect with people outside of the blind community and get more talent involved. I'm slowly getting more people and talent connected.https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/open … -display#/ URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495376/#p495376 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism That's the thing that's frustrating haily, the hardware is so much harder to actually get in the hands of blind people than software. But at least software allows us to demonstrate that the current accessibility model is completely wrong and we should be able to have more control, both as developers and as disabled people.I have heard of serious price gouging problems regarding blind hardware and I do know a lot of inefficiency is baked into the market. Instead of actually, idk encouraging hardware manufacturers for things like ovens and other utilities to have TTS/braille we have to have this market that literally exists to gouge blind people for every penny they have. Disgusting.By the way, if anyone has an old braille display that they don't want to use anymore, if they could donate it to me I could possibly help figure out a way to reverse engineer it and start building an open source braille display. That's something that needs to get done. Contact me through Discord/Twitter/forum message/email for more info, although I'm not quick to responding to forum messages. Use forum email for email it will automatically send to my email. The emailer does work despite the error message. I live in the United States so I would rather have someone ship from there so its cheaper.Just in case you missed it:discord: roger#1979twitter: labadore64EDIT: hmm apparently someone is already doing it, whats your input on this project people? It has a flexible goal which is a little worrying. If you guys don't have confidence in this project we can try to do it ourselves instead.https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/open … -display#/ URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495376/#p495376 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism That's the thing that's frustrating haily, the hardware is so much harder to actually get in the hands of blind people than software. But at least software allows us to demonstrate that the current accessibility model is completely wrong and we should be able to have more control, both as developers and as disabled people.I have heard of serious price gouging problems regarding blind hardware and I do know a lot of inefficiency is baked into the market. Instead of actually, idk encouraging hardware manufacturers for things like ovens and other utilities to have TTS/braille we have to have this market that literally exists to gouge blind people for every penny they have. Disgusting.By the way, if anyone has an old braille display that they don't want to use anymore, if they could donate it to me I could possibly help figure out a way to reverse engineer it and start building an open source braille display. That's something that needs to get done. Contact me through Discord/Twitter/forum message/email for more info, although I'm not quick to responding to forum messages. Use forum email for email it will automatically send to my email. The emailer does work despite the error message. I live in the United States so I would rather have someone ship from there so its cheaper.Just in case you missed it:discord: roger#1979twitter: labadore64EDIT: hmm apparently someone is already doing it, whats your input on this project people?https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/open … -display#/ URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495376/#p495376 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism That's the thing that's frustrating haily, the hardware is so much harder to actually get in the hands of blind people than software. But at least software allows us to demonstrate that the current accessibility model is completely wrong and we should be able to have more control, both as developers and as disabled people.I have heard of serious price gouging problems regarding blind hardware and I do know a lot of inefficiency is baked into the market. Instead of actually, idk encouraging hardware manufacturers for things like ovens and other utilities to have TTS/braille we have to have this market that literally exists to gouge blind people for every penny they have. Disgusting.By the way, if anyone has an old braille display that they don't want to use anymore, if they could donate it to me I could possibly help figure out a way to reverse engineer it and start building an open source braille display. That's something that needs to get done. Contact me through Discord/Twitter/forum message/email for more info, although I'm not quick to responding to forum messages. Use forum email for email it will automatically send to my email. The emailer does work despite the error message. I live in the United States so I would rather have someone ship from there so its cheaper.Just in case you missed it:discord: roger#1979twitter: labadore64 URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495376/#p495376 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism That's the thing that's frustrating haily, the hardware is so much harder to actually get in the hands of blind people than software. But at least software allows us to demonstrate that the current accessibility model is completely wrong and we should be able to have more control, both as developers and as disabled people.I have heard of serious price gouging problems regarding blind hardware and I do know a lot of inefficiency is baked into the market. Instead of actually, idk encouraging hardware manufacturers for things like ovens and other utilities to have TTS/braille we have to have this market that literally exists to gouge blind people for every penny they have. Disgusting.By the way, if anyone has an old braille display that they don't want to use anymore, if they could donate it to me I could possibly help figure out a way to reverse engineer it and start building an open source braille display. That's something that needs to get done. Contact me through Discord/Twitter/forum message/email for more info, although I'm not quick to responding to forum messages. Use forum email for email it will automatically send to my email. The emailer does work despite the error message.Just in case you missed it:discord: roger#1979twitter: labadore64 URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495376/#p495376 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism That's the thing that's frustrating haily, the hardware is so much harder to actually get in the hands of blind people than software. But at least software allows us to demonstrate that the current accessibility model is completely wrong and we should be able to have more control, both as developers and as disabled people.I have heard of serious price gouging problems regarding blind hardware and I do know a lot of inefficiency is baked into the market. Instead of actually, idk encouraging hardware manufacturers for things like ovens and other utilities to have TTS/braille we have to have this market that literally exists to gouge blind people for every penny they have. Disgusting.By the way, if anyone has an old braille display that they don't want to use anymore, if they could donate it to me I could possibly help figure out a way to reverse engineer it and start building an open source braille display. That's something that needs to get done. Contact me through Discord/Twitter/forum message/email for more info, although I'm not quick to responding to forum messages. Use forum email for email it will automatically send to my email.Just in case you missed it:discord: roger#1979twitter: labadore64 URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495376/#p495376 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism That's the thing that's frustrating haily, the hardware is so much harder to actually get in the hands of blind people than software. But at least software allows us to demonstrate that the current accessibility model is completely wrong and we should be able to have more control, both as developers and as disabled people.I have heard of serious price gouging problems regarding blind hardware and I do know a lot of inefficiency is baked into the market. Instead of actually, idk encouraging hardware manufacturers for things like ovens and other utilities to have TTS we have to have this market that literally exists to gouge blind people for every penny they have. Disgusting.By the way, if anyone has an old braille display that they don't want to use anymore, if they could donate it to me I could possibly help figure out a way to reverse engineer it and start building an open source braille display. That's something that needs to get done. Contact me through Discord/Twitter/forum message/email for more info, although I'm not quick to responding to forum messages.Just in case you missed it:discord: roger#1979twitter: labadore64 URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495376/#p495376 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism That's the thing that's frustrating haily, the hardware is so much harder to actually get in the hands of blind people than software. But at least software allows us to demonstrate that the current accessibility model is completely wrong and we should be able to have more control, both as developers and as disabled people.I have heard of serious price gouging problems regarding blind hardware and I do know a lot of inefficiency is baked into the market. Instead of actually, idk encouraging hardware manufacturers for things like ovens and other utilities to have TTS we have to have this market that literally exists to gouge blind people for every penny they have. Disgusting.By the way, if anyone has an old braille display that they don't want to use anymore, if they could donate it to me I could possibly help figure out a way to reverse engineer it and start building an open source braille display. That's something that needs to get done. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495376/#p495376 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism That's the thing that's frustrating haily, the hardware is so much harder to actually get in the hands of blind people than software. But at least software allows us to demonstrate that the current accessibility model is completely wrong and we should be able to have more control, both as developers and as disabled people.I have heard of serious price gouging problems regarding blind hardware and I do know a lot of inefficiency is baked into the market. Instead of actually, idk encouraging hardware manufacturers for things like ovens and other utilities to have TTS we have to have this market that literally exists to gouge blind people for every penny they have. Disgusting. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495376/#p495376 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism That's the thing that's frustrating haily, the hardware is so much harder to actually get in the hands of blind people than software. But at least software allows us to demonstrate that the current accessibility model is completely wrong and we should be able to have more control, both as developers and as disabled people. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495376/#p495376 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Devin! It's okay to be emotional you literally have to deal with this crap! We should all be emotional about this! For most people here this is literally one of the most frustrating parts of your lives that doesn't have to be this way. And for me and other developers there's a ton of shit that these inefficiencies cause that make it almost impossible to reliably develop accessibility for the blind. We should let that emotion drive us and point it with a laser precision at these issues. We need to open up these wounds and deal with whats inside.Your suggestions are great but what I suggest is something a lot bolder. We need to make ourselves known as a force in of itself - we have to have an open source project that demands better and makes an example out of accessibility. We can use this project to leverage accessibility elsewhere (especially in the FOSS community. There really is no excuse)I have the project I'm working on but frankly I think we could do this with multiple projects that we all can contribute to at the same time, that would be even better. I'm hoping the ideas in my project can seed other ideas and get things started.So here's the deal with Max. It's a really unique game engine that does a lot of things differently by design. Here are some examples:- It's built as a set of open source libraries, so that you can switch out libraries with your own builds, as long as the software contracts are preserved.- It puts all of the necessary files for Max in one place, as well as having a simple directory structure for individual games, so that configs and stuff can be across multiple games, and manages all of this for you easily.- This structure is also built to make it very easy to mod the game.- I want to make it possible where you can inject additional libraries so that we can get things like "graphics mods" and stuff, graphic mods for audio games to give them a wider audience.- It standardizes functionality like inputs so that game devs don't have to worry about them, as well as making sure they include accessibility features out of the box.- Max, being modular, can be injected into other game engines such as Unity or UE4 via plugins, enabling other game engines to use these featuresThe design idea is that UI development should not be a hierarchy from Dev to User but rather a collaborative project. Both sides help build both sides. So, while I'm building out the engine people can make contributions to it to help make it easier , but also, when the engine is completed, multiple versions of the libraries can be made to accommodate many needs. It's important to note that also, the libraries are designed with a lot of native accessibility for a wide variety of disabilities in mind, so that modding for things like blindness, deafness, and motor disabilities dont require code changes.The goal is to essentially "squat" on this part of the market, so that we can push out corporate interests before they even really have a time to fully reap the consequences. Because of Max's open source and highly modular design, there's not really much Microsoft or Epic can really do to react. I think they are trying to use this to gain market advantage and we need to step in before they actually achieve this to keep the accessibility movement on blind turfThe input would really just be from an accessibility POV, help point out problems and limitations in the system. if you're able to record with OBS that would be really amazing. And any development is always welcome, I still have to get familiar with git and pull requests but we can get that going if you have any input. Or, if you feel like you have a different idea we can develop alongside that. And I'm not asking anyone to quit their job or anything over this, that's my job :^)Max is super important though because it bridges a major gap between sighted and blind gaming by basically focusing on inputs and outputs instead of a disability, and the more inputs and outputs we have the more we can accomidate disabled people in general.I'm currently working on trying to build a social media campaign for the project with moderate success; and I also have some medium sized twitter accounts I'm working with to get stuff out there. It's tricky because a lot of the disability advocacy movement is just popular twitter accounts complaining about individual problems, doesn't really promote organizing. Also, I've been coding everything myself which scks. This project is such a massive undertaking. However as people find out what I'm doing I am gaining more support. Very slowly. And I have to fight against the fucking ableism explainers on twitter who don't even have to deal with any of this shit. But I think I can leverage things in my favor. We all have to work together on this. URL: https://forum.audioga
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Devin! It's okay to be emotional you literally have to deal with this crap! We should all be emotional about this! For most people here this is literally one of the most frustrating parts of your lives that doesn't have to be this way. And for me and other developers there's a ton of shit that these inefficiencies cause that make it almost impossible to reliably develop accessibility for the blind. We should let that emotion drive us and point it with a laser precision at these issues. We need to open up these wounds and deal with whats inside.Your suggestions are great but what I suggest is something a lot bolder. We need to make ourselves known as a force in of itself - we have to have an open source project that demands better and makes an example out of accessibility. We can use this project to leverage accessibility elsewhere (especially in the FOSS community. There really is no excuse)I have the project I'm working on but frankly I think we could do this with multiple projects that we all can contribute to at the same time, that would be even better. I'm hoping the ideas in my project can seed other ideas and get things started.So here's the deal with Max. It's a really unique game engine that does a lot of things differently by design. Here are some examples:- It's built as a set of open source libraries, so that you can switch out libraries with your own builds, as long as the software contracts are preserved.- It puts all of the necessary files for Max in one place, as well as having a simple directory structure for individual games, so that configs and stuff can be across multiple games, and manages all of this for you easily.- This structure is also built to make it very easy to mod the game.- I want to make it possible where you can inject additional libraries so that we can get things like "graphics mods" and stuff, graphic mods for audio games to give them a wider audience.- Max, being modular, can be injected into other game engines such as Unity or UE4 via plugins, enabling other game engines to use these featuresThe design idea is that UI development should not be a hierarchy from Dev to User but rather a collaborative project. Both sides help build both sides. So, while I'm building out the engine people can make contributions to it to help make it easier , but also, when the engine is completed, multiple versions of the libraries can be made to accommodate many needs. It's important to note that also, the libraries are designed with a lot of native accessibility for a wide variety of disabilities in mind, so that modding for things like blindness, deafness, and motor disabilities dont require code changes.The goal is to essentially "squat" on this part of the market, so that we can push out corporate interests before they even really have a time to fully reap the consequences. Because of Max's open source and highly modular design, there's not really much Microsoft or Epic can really do to react.The input would really just be from an accessibility POV, help point out problems and limitations in the system. if you're able to record with OBS that would be really amazing. And any development is always welcome, I still have to get familiar with git and pull requests but we can get that going if you have any input. Or, if you feel like you have a different idea we can develop alongside that. And I'm not asking anyone to quit their job or anything over this, that's my job :^)Max is super important though because it bridges a major gap between sighted and blind gaming by basically focusing on inputs and outputs instead of a disability, and the more inputs and outputs we have the more we can accomidate disabled people in general.I'm currently working on trying to build a social media campaign for the project with moderate success; and I also have some medium sized twitter accounts I'm working with to get stuff out there. It's tricky because a lot of the disability advocacy movement is just popular twitter accounts complaining about individual problems, doesn't really promote organizing. Also, I've been coding everything myself which scks. This project is such a massive undertaking. However as people find out what I'm doing I am gaining more support. Very slowly. And I have to fight against the fucking ableism explainers on twitter who don't even have to deal with any of this shit. But I think I can leverage things in my favor. We all have to work together on this. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495374/#p495374 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism
You're actually a little wrong about voiceover on the mac. We did recently get VOCR, which is a huge huge step up from anything we have on windows right now. I also think VO hasn't really needed an update in a long time. Feel free to correct me on this, but I think the reason it's been so stagnant over the years is simply because it's already pretty much complete. I can't really think of much that could be added or changed off of the top of my head, anyway. That said, I do agree that the hole mac lineup really needs more attention, apple are so obsessed with their quote ('computer replacements') which FYI will never actually replace a computer at least not while IOS remains wallgardened, that they're leaving their actually good devices in the dust.I do agree that we should really start taking care of ourselves a little more however. The sooner we can stop relying on these multi million dollar corperations, the sooner we can actually make some change happen. I do love my braille note apex and my victer stream and use both on a regular basis, but if an ulternative existed that didn't require me to get funding from the county or get help from friends in order to obtain it, I'd grab it in a heartbeat.
URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495375/#p495375
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Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Devin! It's okay to be emotional you literally have to deal with this crap! We should all be emotional about this! For most people here this is literally one of the most frustrating parts of your lives that doesn't have to be this way. And for me and other developers there's a ton of shit that these inefficiencies cause that make it almost impossible to reliably develop accessibility for the blind. We should let that emotion drive us and point it with a laser precision at these issues. We need to open up these wounds and deal with whats inside.Your suggestions are great but what I suggest is something a lot bolder. We need to make ourselves known as a force in of itself - we have to have an open source project that demands better and makes an example out of accessibility.I have the project I'm working on but frankly I think we could do this with multiple projects that we all can contribute to at the same time, that would be even better. I'm hoping the ideas in my project can seed other ideas and get things started.So here's the deal with Max. It's a really unique game engine that does a lot of things differently by design. Here are some examples:- It's built as a set of open source libraries, so that you can switch out libraries with your own builds, as long as the software contracts are preserved.- It puts all of the necessary files for Max in one place, as well as having a simple directory structure for individual games, so that configs and stuff can be across multiple games, and manages all of this for you easily.- This structure is also built to make it very easy to mod the game.- I want to make it possible where you can inject additional libraries so that we can get things like "graphics mods" and stuff, graphic mods for audio games to give them a wider audience.- Max, being modular, can be injected into other game engines such as Unity or UE4 via plugins, enabling other game engines to use these featuresThe design idea is that UI development should not be a hierarchy from Dev to User but rather a collaborative project. Both sides help build both sides. So, while I'm building out the engine people can make contributions to it to help make it easier , but also, when the engine is completed, multiple versions of the libraries can be made to accommodate many needs. It's important to note that also, the libraries are designed with a lot of native accessibility for a wide variety of disabilities in mind, so that modding for things like blindness, deafness, and motor disabilities dont require code changes.The goal is to essentially "squat" on this part of the market, so that we can push out corporate interests before they even really have a time to fully reap the consequences. Because of Max's open source and highly modular design, there's not really much Microsoft or Epic can really do to react.The input would really just be from an accessibility POV, help point out problems and limitations in the system. if you're able to record with OBS that would be really amazing. And any development is always welcome, I still have to get familiar with git and pull requests but we can get that going if you have any input. Or, if you feel like you have a different idea we can develop alongside that. And I'm not asking anyone to quit their job or anything over this, that's my job :^)Max is super important though because it bridges a major gap between sighted and blind gaming by basically focusing on inputs and outputs instead of a disability, and the more inputs and outputs we have the more we can accomidate disabled people in general.I'm currently working on trying to build a social media campaign for the project with moderate success; and I also have some medium sized twitter accounts I'm working with to get stuff out there. It's tricky because a lot of the disability advocacy movement is just popular twitter accounts complaining about individual problems, doesn't really promote organizing. Also, I've been coding everything myself which scks. This project is such a massive undertaking. However as people find out what I'm doing I am gaining more support. Very slowly. And I have to fight against the fucking ableism explainers on twitter who don't even have to deal with any of this shit. But I think I can leverage things in my favor. We all have to work together on this. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495374/#p495374 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Hi!I like this topic.My grandma never say disabled.Always says differently abled. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495370/#p495370 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Yep, I definitely talked a bit about this in my blog. With huge corporations, we can't know that they won't just release the bass pedal on accessibility, and just leave things kinda just sitting there, not really caring much to fix or update. In fact, hey, great example, MacOS! VoiceOver hasn't been substantially updated in a good… 4 years at least. I still use a Mac because of all of its other benefits, mostly the Mail app, Terminal, spell checking and autocorrection across the OS, and Alex, much better than Microsoft David and such.Also, we can't even freaking count on "open source organizations" to help! Have y'all seen the GNU accessibility page? https://www.gnu.org/accessibility/Yeah, Adobe Flash and Microsoft Silverlight are still the name of the game, guys, the FSF said so so they obviously know what they're talking about. It isn't like they may not have updated this since 2007. It really is up to us, and that is so, so sad. No one else is going to help us. Freedom Scientific, HIMS, Humanware, APH and them all have their faces planted securely in their piles of money, and they, hopefully at least, employ blind people. I think we should rally around open source even still, but I also think the whole community should be involved, giving feedback at *least*. There are so many of us who are great at playing audio games, but are we also great at advocating for the blind community? If you find open source software you like, open an issue on Github. There are so many of us who can spend hours on TeamTalk with friends, but can we also put hours into learning to code, even with freecodecamp.org, and help build a future for ourselves?I know, all this is emotional writing, and I hope that I was a bit more factual in my blog, but this stuff is what will make our community more than just 90% consumers of what 5% create, or what 5% advocate for. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495359/#p495359 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism rwbeardjr, I think what is really interesting is you're demonstrating how screen readers really aren't inherently "connected" with any level of blindness, simply an inability to read. Screen readers are also used by people with certain cognitive disabilities. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495326/#p495326 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism My thing is this.In some ways, my situation is different because of the fact that I can see a little. Maybe it's not, but at the same time, I don't know URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495297/#p495297 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Ok.Regarding the whole sun thing, since I have some usable vision, I can tell whether or not light is in the room. Also, if print is big enough, I can read it, but it has to be larger than the standard Large print, and it takes me a lot longer. Therefore, I only use print for short amounts of time, because if I try too long, it makes my eyes get tired. That's why I stick to using screen readers most of the time.For me, my visual impairment is something that's just there, and I have to learn different ways of doing things. No big deal.I will say that recently, accessibility has been getting a little more notice, but not as much as it should be. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495286/#p495286 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Alright, you have me convinced. The NVDA thing would be pretty hard to ignore. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495254/#p495254 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism So I've had this thought for a year or so. Disclaimer I support the group 100% and am only using them as an example and mean nothing against them in any way. I could not help but think if blind people as a whole had the same attention the LGBQ comnunity had we wouldn't have to constantly advocate for ourselves the resources would just be there. I don't think any disability has ever been given that level of attention. I may be wrong but that was sort of my understanding of making blindness and even other disabilities social groups. Please correct me if I am wrong. I think it's great that the LGBQ comnunity has the respect and accomnodations they need however when ever I see an email signature stating my gender pronouns are I start to wonder. What things would be like if people put my preferred reading material is Braille and my my preferred screen reader is NVDA, or my my my preferred reading matterial is print and my my my preferred screen reader is none. I've accepted the fact that that world is just never going to happen and I know that's a messed up thing to have to accept but there it is. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495241/#p495241 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism To be fair, have you looked at the state of disability politics? Let's put it this way, it's so messed up that there are way less LGBT people out there than disabled people, but disabled people have way less rights and are already being eugenically selected in some cases. A big reason why disability advocacy has fallen flat is because it is extremely focused on individuality. When was the last time anyone told you to organize? Look, standing up for yourself is cute and all but its not gonna get shit done - we are not told to work together.And speaking as a super queer... yeah, LGBT has a lot of its own problems. A LOT. In fact a lot of the problems that are in disability politics like how there's a small elite controlling the narrative are in LGBT too. Tons of in group infighting too. It's totally unnecessary.You can't expect these things to change though without complete institutional overhaul of how accessibility is approached. The reason why these technologies aren't put in the way that you need them like NVDA compatible/braille/etc is because we don't even have control over whether or not those things get implemented. It's decided by some company and they never even consider disability. Even if they did, there would be no way to properly accommodate it.NVDA changed things not just because it was another option but because it's open source. While there aren't probably a lot of mods for NVDA you can compile it from source and write your own version of it. This gives a lot of power to NVDA as a project which can't be seen in JAWS. If we extend this philosophy to something more broad, like game design, and seize control of it before the corporations do, we can maintain this niche and use this as a platform to continue fighting. We literally have the ability to start doing this right now if we work together on this project.I don't mind having max be a community wide project in fact I encourage it. We would be able to get this code injected in other game engines which allows our accessibility to "squat" over others, and enable a single environment. Like I said max is very complex with what it aims to do but it tries to be as modular and open sourced as possible to occupy niches that corporate solutions can't to push out corporate accessibility. The more we can get the more we can start proving ourselves; we NEED accessibility to be able to enable ourselves. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495243/#p495243 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism To be fair, have you looked at the state of disability politics? Let's put it this way, it's so messed up that there are way less LGBT people out there than disabled people, but disabled people have way less rights and are already being eugenically selected in some cases. A big reason why disability advocacy has fallen flat is because it is extremely focused on individuality. When was the last time anyone told you to organize? Look, standing up for yourself is cute and all but its not gonna get shit done - we are not told to work together.And speaking as a super queer... yeah, LGBT has a lot of its own problems. A LOT. In fact a lot of the problems that are in disability politics like how there's a small elite controlling the narrative are in LGBT too. Tons of in group infighting too. It's totally unnecessary.You can't expect these things to change though without complete institutional overhaul of how accessibility is approached. The reason why these technologies aren't put in the way that you need them like NVDA compatible/braille/etc is because we don't even have control over whether or not those things get implemented. It's decided by some company and they never even consider disability. Even if they did, there would be no way to properly accommodate it.NVDA changed things not just because it was another option but because it's open source. While there aren't probably a lot of mods for NVDA you can compile it from source and write your own version of it. This gives a lot of power to NVDA as a project which can't be seen in JAWS. If we extend this philosophy to something more broad, like game design, and seize control of it before the corporations do, we can maintain this niche and use this as a platform to continue fighting. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495243/#p495243 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism To be fair, have you looked at the state of disability politics? Let's put it this way, it's so messed up that there are way less LGBT people out there than disabled people, but disabled people have way less rights and are already being eugenically selected in some cases. A big reason why disability advocacy has fallen flat is because it is extremely focused on individuality. When was the last time anyone told you to organize? Look, standing up for yourself is cute and all but its not gonna get shit done - we are not told to work together.You can't expect these things to change though without complete institutional overhaul of how accessibility is approached. The reason why these technologies aren't put in the way that you need them like NVDA compatible/braille/etc is because we don't even have control over whether or not those things get implemented. It's decided by some company and they never even consider disability. Even if they did, there would be no way to properly accommodate it.NVDA changed things not just because it was another option but because it's open source. While there aren't probably a lot of mods for NVDA you can compile it from source and write your own version of it. This gives a lot of power to NVDA as a project which can't be seen in JAWS. If we extend this philosophy to something more broad, like game design, and seize control of it before the corporations do, we can maintain this niche and use this as a platform to continue fighting. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495243/#p495243 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism So I've had this thought for a year or so. Disclaimer I support the group 100% and am only using them as an example and mean nothing against them in any way. I could not help but think if blind people as a whole had the same attention the LGBQ comnunity had we wouldn't have to constantly advocate for ourselves the resources would just be there. I don't think any disability has ever been given that level of attention. I may be wrong but that was sort of my understanding of making blindness and even other disabilities social groups. Please correct me if I am wrong. I think it's great that the LGBQ comnunity has the respect and accomnodations they need however when ever I see an email signature stating my gender pronouns are I start to wonder. What things would be like if people put my preferred reading material is Braille and my my preferred screen reader is NVDA, or my my my preferred reading matterial is print and my my my preferred screen reader is none. I've accepted the fact that that world is just never going to happen and I know that's a messed up thing to have to accept. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495241/#p495241 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Daigonite, I do have a question regarding this. I totally understand your viewpoint, but could you maybe provide a link to some specific examples that can serve as proof for your view? I'm not trying to say that your view is wrong, but I do think that it's helpful to have some form of evidence backing up what people say.I think all of us are aware that very little is actually written on disability literature. The problem is we have to drive the lead.However, there is one notable example that everyone on this forum is familiar with that is worth talking about - NVDA.What NVDA did was provide a physical material way to actually challenge accessibility in a way and help migrate it back into the hands of the disabled. Even if you disagree with some of NVDA's design choices you can still download it and build even your own screen reader. NVDA isn't perfect but a lot of its struggles are caused by lack of first party support because of JAWS domination.However, NVDA scared the fucking SHIT out of freedom scientific. They literally had to add a yearly-license based model because NVDA was that much of a threat, they couldn't keep charging almost a thousand dollars for each edition because NVDA was fucking FREE. I don't think anyone here has to think about how much NVDA changed the world for blind people. And that was literally one thing.What I'm saying is that we learn from NVDA's example and continue to try to seize the accessibility industry away from these fuckheads, and slowly enable ourselves, while changing how we approach accessibility. I'll write a bit more in a bit but I think the way we approach accessibility as a dev to end user relationship is completely wrong - there is a hierarchy between the dev and the end user. You just have to put up with the dev's bullshit and if they fuck up you're screwed or have to work around it.I'm trying to build a game engine that gets around this by using a bunch of libraries instead of a single game engine binary, and since they are all open source the parts can be switched out. Any game that uses these libraries can therefore potentially made much more blind accessible. Meanwhile, the industry just wants to fart around by hiring contractors when we could literally change how we approach blind accessibility in gaming. We need to combine our resources and build this thing together; and also try to build out any other accessibility tools that we can, and provide them open source to push out corporate competition. By making it open source, end users can fix issues for their custom needs.You don't think those design changes won't catch on in other areas? If people see how powerful an engine like this is it will completely change their fucking minds on whats possible with blind people. And we are the ones in control. We need to keep building on what NVDA did until we reach that threshold.Lets talk about devices for the blind for a sec. We all know its a rip off but a lot of the time you need these things. Think about how much easier it would be if everything just had text to speech implemented into it. Or if it was just easy to put into it. I'm kind of doing the same thing but with software, and those design changes can spread to other parts. This IS absolutely an accessibility revolution, and probably one of the most important ones to happen in a long time.The potential is actually hard to put in perspective - the technology used in making a game blind accessible could be used in actually helping treat blindness by using other senses as an alternative. Game accessibility is literally built around this idea - of navigating information with sound instead of sight - and it would be possible to combine that technology with computer vision to possibly make blindness something that exists but not as a disability. It would take decades but these are the doors we are opening here.Combining this by the way with the theoretical approaches I pointed out in the post above to Dark helps get support from other sects. If we had more "serious" groups on the left actually take disability rights more seriously as a labor issue we could gain serious support, especially when pointing out the damage corporations have caused accessibility.We have to start moving though, because Microsoft and Epic Games are already trying to push the accessibility shit hard, and the legal requirements surrounding accessibility can easily allow them to close off market share and privatize accessibility in gaming, making gaming accessibility even harder. It's interesting what you were saying when you mentioned kids with Downs syndrome and how people feel "they shouldn't exist". In college right now, I am taking a class on eugenics, or gene editing. I didn't think that this would have anything to do with me, but then I was shown a video about how Iceland has been work
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Daigonite, I do have a question regarding this. I totally understand your viewpoint, but could you maybe provide a link to some specific examples that can serve as proof for your view? I'm not trying to say that your view is wrong, but I do think that it's helpful to have some form of evidence backing up what people say.I think all of us are aware that very little is actually written on disability literature. The problem is we have to drive the lead.However, there is one notable example that everyone on this forum is familiar with that is worth talking about - NVDA.What NVDA did was provide a physical material way to actually challenge accessibility in a way and help migrate it back into the hands of the disabled. Even if you disagree with some of NVDA's design choices you can still download it and build even your own screen reader. NVDA isn't perfect but a lot of its struggles are caused by lack of first party support because of JAWS domination.However, NVDA scared the fucking SHIT out of freedom scientific. They literally had to add a yearly-license based model because NVDA was that much of a threat, they couldn't keep charging almost a thousand dollars for each edition because NVDA was fucking FREE. I don't think anyone here has to think about how much NVDA changed the world for blind people. And that was literally one thing.What I'm saying is that we learn from NVDA's example and continue to try to seize the accessibility industry away from these fuckheads, and slowly enable ourselves, while changing how we approach accessibility. I'll write a bit more in a bit but I think the way we approach accessibility as a dev to end user relationship is completely wrong - there is a hierarchy between the dev and the end user. You just have to put up with the dev's bullshit and if they fuck up you're screwed or have to work around it.I'm trying to build a game engine that gets around this by using a bunch of libraries instead of a single game engine binary, and since they are all open source the parts can be switched out. Any game that uses these libraries can therefore potentially made much more blind accessible. Meanwhile, the industry just wants to fart around by hiring contractors when we could literally change how we approach blind accessibility in gaming. We need to combine our resources and build this thing together; and also try to build out any other accessibility tools that we can, and provide them open source to push out corporate competition. By making it open source, end users can fix issues for their custom needs.You don't think those design changes won't catch on in other areas? If people see how powerful an engine like this is it will completely change their fucking minds on whats possible with blind people. And we are the ones in control. We need to keep building on what NVDA did until we reach that threshold.Lets talk about devices for the blind for a sec. We all know its a rip off but a lot of the time you need these things. Think about how much easier it would be if everything just had text to speech implemented into it. Or if it was just easy to put into it. I'm kind of doing the same thing but with software, and those design changes can spread to other parts. This IS absolutely an accessibility revolution, and probably one of the most important ones to happen in a long time.The potential is actually hard to put in perspective - the technology used in making a game blind accessible could be used in actually helping treat blindness by using other senses as an alternative. Game accessibility is literally built around this idea - of navigating information with sound instead of sight - and it would be possible to combine that technology with computer vision to possibly make blindness something that exists but not as a disability. It would take decades but these are the doors we are opening here.Combining this by the way with the theoretical approaches I pointed out in the post above to Dark helps get support from other sects. If we had more "serious" groups on the left actually take disability rights more seriously as a labor issue we could gain serious support, especially when pointing out the damage corporations have caused accessibility.We have to start moving though, because Microsoft and Epic Games are already trying to push the accessibility shit hard, and the legal requirements surrounding accessibility can easily allow them to close off market share and privatize accessibility in gaming, making gaming accessibility even harder. It's interesting what you were saying when you mentioned kids with Downs syndrome and how people feel "they shouldn't exist". In college right now, I am taking a class on eugenics, or gene editing. I didn't think that this would have anything to do with me, but then I was shown a video about how Iceland has been work
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Daigonite, I do have a question regarding this. I totally understand your viewpoint, but could you maybe provide a link to some specific examples that can serve as proof for your view? I'm not trying to say that your view is wrong, but I do think that it's helpful to have some form of evidence backing up what people say.I think all of us are aware that very little is actually written on disability literature. The problem is we have to drive the lead.However, there is one notable example that everyone on this forum is familiar with that is worth talking about - NVDA.What NVDA did was provide a physical material way to actually challenge accessibility in a way and help migrate it back into the hands of the disabled. Even if you disagree with some of NVDA's design choices you can still download it and build even your own screen reader. NVDA isn't perfect but a lot of its struggles are caused by lack of first party support because of JAWS domination.However, NVDA scared the fucking SHIT out of freedom scientific. They literally had to add a yearly-license based model because NVDA was that much of a threat, they couldn't keep charging almost a thousand dollars for each edition because NVDA was fucking FREE. I don't think anyone here has to think about how much NVDA changed the world for blind people. And that was literally one thing.What I'm saying is that we learn from NVDA's example and continue to try to seize the accessibility industry away from these fuckheads, and slowly enable ourselves, while changing how we approach accessibility. I'll write a bit more in a bit but I think the way we approach accessibility as a dev to end user relationship is completely wrong - there is a hierarchy between the dev and the end user. You just have to put up with the dev's bullshit and if they fuck up you're screwed or have to work around it.I'm trying to build a game engine that gets around this by using a bunch of libraries instead of a single game engine binary, and since they are all open source the parts can be switched out. Any game that uses these libraries can therefore potentially made much more blind accessible. Meanwhile, the industry just wants to fart around by hiring contractors when we could literally change how we approach blind accessibility in gaming.You don't think those design changes won't catch on in other areas? If people see how powerful an engine like this is it will completely change their fucking minds on whats possible with blind people. And we are the ones in control. We need to keep building on what NVDA did until we reach that threshold.Lets talk about devices for the blind for a sec. We all know its a rip off but a lot of the time you need these things. Think about how much easier it would be if everything just had text to speech implemented into it. Or if it was just easy to put into it. I'm kind of doing the same thing but with software, and those design changes can spread to other parts. This IS absolutely an accessibility revolution, and probably one of the most important ones to happen in a long time.The potential is actually hard to put in perspective - the technology used in making a game blind accessible could be used in actually helping treat blindness by using other senses as an alternative. Game accessibility is literally built around this idea - of navigating information with sound instead of sight - and it would be possible to combine that technology with computer vision to possibly make blindness something that exists but not as a disability. It would take decades but these are the doors we are opening here.Combining this by the way with the theoretical approaches I pointed out in the post above to Dark helps get support from other sects. If we had more "serious" groups on the left actually take disability rights more seriously as a labor issue we could gain serious support, especially when pointing out the damage corporations have caused accessibility.We have to start moving though, because Microsoft and Epic Games are already trying to push the accessibility shit hard, and the legal requirements surrounding accessibility can easily allow them to close off market share and privatize accessibility in gaming, making gaming accessibility even harder. It's interesting what you were saying when you mentioned kids with Downs syndrome and how people feel "they shouldn't exist". In college right now, I am taking a class on eugenics, or gene editing. I didn't think that this would have anything to do with me, but then I was shown a video about how Iceland has been working to "eliminate" Downs syndrome. Before birth, the mothers are notified of a test to check if their child is Downs positive or negative. If it is likely that they will have a child with Downs syndrome, the mother is given the option of ending the pregancy th
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Daigonite, I do have a question regarding this. I totally understand your viewpoint, but could you maybe provide a link to some specific examples that can serve as proof for your view? I'm not trying to say that your view is wrong, but I do think that it's helpful to have some form of evidence backing up what people say.I think all of us are aware that very little is actually written on disability literature. The problem is we have to drive the lead.However, there is one notable example that everyone on this forum is familiar with that is worth talking about - NVDA.What NVDA did was provide a physical material way to actually challenge accessibility in a way and help migrate it back into the hands of the disabled. Even if you disagree with some of NVDA's design choices you can still download it and build even your own screen reader. NVDA isn't perfect but a lot of its struggles are caused by lack of first party support because of JAWS domination.However, NVDA scared the fucking SHIT out of freedom scientific. They literally had to add a yearly-license based model because NVDA was that much of a threat, they couldn't keep charging almost a thousand dollars for each edition because NVDA was fucking FREE. I don't think anyone here has to think about how much NVDA changed the world for blind people. And that was literally one thing.What I'm saying is that we learn from NVDA's example and continue to try to seize the accessibility industry away from these fuckheads, and slowly enable ourselves, while changing how we approach accessibility. I'll write a bit more in a bit but I think the way we approach accessibility as a dev to end user relationship is completely wrong - there is a hierarchy between the dev and the end user. You just have to put up with the dev's bullshit and if they fuck up you're screwed or have to work around it.I'm trying to build a game engine that gets around this by using a bunch of libraries instead of a single game engine binary, and since they are all open source the parts can be switched out. Any game that uses these libraries can therefore potentially made much more blind accessible. Meanwhile, the industry just wants to fart around by hiring contractors when we could literally change how we approach blind accessibility in gaming.You don't think those design changes won't catch on in other areas? If people see how powerful an engine like this is it will completely change their fucking minds on whats possible with blind people. And we are the ones in control. We need to keep building on what NVDA did until we reach that threshold.Lets talk about devices for the blind for a sec. We all know its a rip off but a lot of the time you need these things. Think about how much easier it would be if everything just had text to speech implemented into it. Or if it was just easy to put into it. I'm kind of doing the same thing but with software, and those design changes can spread to other parts. This IS absolutely an accessibility revolution, and probably one of the most important ones to happen in a long time.The potential is actually hard to put in perspective - the technology used in making a game blind accessible could be used in actually helping treat blindness by using other senses as an alternative. Game accessibility is literally built around this idea - of navigating information with sound instead of sight - and it would be possible to combine that technology with computer vision to possibly make blindness something that exists but not as a disability. It would take decades but these are the doors we are opening here.Combining this by the way with the theoretical approaches I pointed out in the post above to Dark helps get support from other sects. If we had more "serious" groups on the left actually take disability rights more seriously as a labor issue we could gain serious support, especially when pointing out the damage corporations have caused accessibility.It's interesting what you were saying when you mentioned kids with Downs syndrome and how people feel "they shouldn't exist". In college right now, I am taking a class on eugenics, or gene editing. I didn't think that this would have anything to do with me, but then I was shown a video about how Iceland has been working to "eliminate" Downs syndrome. Before birth, the mothers are notified of a test to check if their child is Downs positive or negative. If it is likely that they will have a child with Downs syndrome, the mother is given the option of ending the pregancy then and there. From the video, it seems like the Iceland public's stance on Downs syndrome is that they are mercy-killing them before they enter the world and suffer. It appears that they don't believe that they are capable of leading happy and fulfilling lives.The sad thing about people with
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Daigonite, I do have a question regarding this. I totally understand your viewpoint, but could you maybe provide a link to some specific examples that can serve as proof for your view? I'm not trying to say that your view is wrong, but I do think that it's helpful to have some form of evidence backing up what people say.I think all of us are aware that very little is actually written on disability literature. The problem is we have to drive the lead.However, there is one notable example that everyone on this forum is familiar with that is worth talking about - NVDA.What NVDA did was provide a physical material way to actually challenge accessibility in a way and help migrate it back into the hands of the disabled. Even if you disagree with some of NVDA's design choices you can still download it and build even your own screen reader. NVDA isn't perfect but a lot of its struggles are caused by lack of first party support because of JAWS domination.However, NVDA scared the fucking SHIT out of freedom scientific. They literally had to add a yearly-license based model because NVDA was that much of a threat, they couldn't keep charging almost a thousand dollars for each edition because NVDA was fucking FREE. I don't think anyone here has to think about how much NVDA changed the world for blind people. And that was literally one thing.What I'm saying is that we learn from NVDA's example and continue to try to seize the accessibility industry away from these fuckheads, and slowly enable ourselves, while changing how we approach accessibility. I'll write a bit more in a bit but I think the way we approach accessibility as a dev to end user relationship is completely wrong - there is a hierarchy between the dev and the end user. You just have to put up with the dev's bullshit and if they fuck up you're screwed or have to work around it.I'm trying to build a game engine that gets around this by using a bunch of libraries instead of a single game engine binary, and since they are all open source the parts can be switched out. Any game that uses these libraries can therefore potentially made much more blind accessible. Meanwhile, the industry just wants to fart around by hiring contractors when we could literally change how we approach blind accessibility in gaming.You don't think those design changes won't catch on in other areas? If people see how powerful an engine like this is it will completely change their fucking minds on whats possible with blind people. And we are the ones in control. We need to keep building on what NVDA did until we reach that threshold.Lets talk about devices for the blind for a sec. We all know its a rip off but a lot of the time you need these things. Think about how much easier it would be if everything just had text to speech implemented into it. Or if it was just easy to put into it. I'm kind of doing the same thing but with software, and those design changes can spread to other parts. This IS absolutely an accessibility revolution, and probably one of the most important ones to happen in a long time.The potential is actually hard to put in perspective - the technology used in making a game blind accessible could be used in actually helping treat blindness by using other senses as an alternative. Game accessibility is literally built around this idea - of navigating information with sound instead of sight - and it would be possible to combine that technology with computer vision to possibly make blindness something that exists but not as a disability. It would take decades but these are the doors we are opening here.It's interesting what you were saying when you mentioned kids with Downs syndrome and how people feel "they shouldn't exist". In college right now, I am taking a class on eugenics, or gene editing. I didn't think that this would have anything to do with me, but then I was shown a video about how Iceland has been working to "eliminate" Downs syndrome. Before birth, the mothers are notified of a test to check if their child is Downs positive or negative. If it is likely that they will have a child with Downs syndrome, the mother is given the option of ending the pregancy then and there. From the video, it seems like the Iceland public's stance on Downs syndrome is that they are mercy-killing them before they enter the world and suffer. It appears that they don't believe that they are capable of leading happy and fulfilling lives.The sad thing about people with Down's is that there's really nothing wrong with them, they're just expected to exist in a society that's quite honestly cruel to most of us. Because most parents struggle to support disabled children, especially children with severe mental disabilities, we tend to subconsciously see them as a liability which makes us think they would be
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism @Dark - Okay warning nerd serious alert, but I've personally noticed that its very effective to explain how not acknowledging disability shows how marxism is incomplete. Marxists have a dauntingly large amount of literature to support their views making them particularly respected (even if not necessarily agreed upon). By pointing out how they privilege workers over the disabled, and by pointing out how this problem originates from both the historical context of marx and early socialism and how they would have never considered disability, as well as academic institutions themselves being difficult for disabled people, you can effectively demonstrate through material analysis how disability relates to labor. I think this is the only real way to go tbh.I think it's also to really focus on how anyone can be disabled. More than any other intersection, disability is something that can be acquired. This means that it impacts everyone and is a fundamental characteristic of our society. I'm currently messing around with Stirner. A lot of people think he's garbage, but his whole idea in the ego book is that everyone has a unique material origin to their perspective which influences their actions (which he calls egoism). It has a complicated history but I think that it actually provides a pretty useful model for understanding disability in the context of marxism because his work works as an antithesis to it in a lot of ways (which can definitely be seen by their reaction to it lmao). A few people do this weird Stirner-Marx approach with other things but never disability and tbh I think disability is probably the most practical and least weird of this intersection - the stirner captures the unique individual material nature of disability and the marx helps translate that material context into a larger social model that also functions on a material level. Stirner can also be coupled with Deleuze-Guattari but I don't know enough about them to fully say because I only recently started getting into them; obviously since you have marx you can throw in some hegelian funsies too.You can use anti-psych to help build up the idea that disability is socially constructed, but honestly a great and intuitive example is just glasses and pointing out how millions of people would be disabled and unable to drive a car without the invention of glasses.Fuck intersectional theory its literally made up hogwash to make academics feel like they're doing anything about systemic problems. Sadly there are no real sources that focus on disability, this is where we would be breaking ground, but I think that given the information groundwork its possible to construct a solid theory of disability that contrasts it with labor and helps unify the goals of intersectional theory with more traditional leftist goals. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495233/#p495233 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Daigonite, I do have a question regarding this. I totally understand your viewpoint, but could you maybe provide a link to some specific examples that can serve as proof for your view? I'm not trying to say that your view is wrong, but I do think that it's helpful to have some form of evidence backing up what people say.It's interesting what you were saying when you mentioned kids with Downs syndrome and how people feel "they shouldn't exist". In college right now, I am taking a class on eugenics, or gene editing. I didn't think that this would have anything to do with me, but then I was shown a video about how Iceland has been working to "eliminate" Downs syndrome. Before birth, the mothers are notified of a test to check if their child is Downs positive or negative. If it is likely that they will have a child with Downs syndrome, the mother is given the option of ending the pregancy then and there. From the video, it seems like the Iceland public's stance on Downs syndrome is that they are mercy-killing them before they enter the world and suffer. It appears that they don't believe that they are capable of leading happy and fulfilling lives. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495209/#p495209 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Daigonite, I do have a question regarding this. I totally understand your viewpoint, but could you maybe provide a link to some specific examples that can serve as proof for your view? I'm not trying to say that your view is wrong, but I do think that it's helpful to have some form of evidence backing up what people say.It's interesting what you were saying about kids with Downs syndrome. in college right now, I am taking a class on Eugenics, or gene editing. I didn't think that this would have anything to do with me, but then I was shjn a video about how Iceland has been working to "eliminate" Downs syndrome. Before birth, the mothers are notified of a test to check if their child is Downs positive or negative. If it is likely that they will have a child with Downs syndrome, the mother is given the option of ending the pregancy then and there. From the video, it seems like the Iceland public's stance on Downs syndrome is that they are mercy-killing them before they enter the world and suffer. It appears that they don't believe that they are capable of leading happy and fulfilling lives. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495209/#p495209 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism Daigonite wrote:the material reality that blindness is an interaction between our bodies and society.I spent a stupidly long time (at least a decade), writing a thesis redefining disability on that very basis. see Here for detailsThe idea that disability was a set of interactions affecting a person's wellbeing which occur between the person and their environment, which are separate from, though sometimes related to people's attitudes towards certain categories of people. You'd not believe how much social model crap is written in the academic sphere. the problem is, as witness my two years post thesis and my zero percent interest, that nobody is willing to listen to a perspective that is not involved with the prevailing view of what social justice happens to be, and since in common parlence disabled always equals wheel chair access, that doesn't do much good for blind people, or for that matter anyone who falls outside the rather narrow band of identity based activism in vogue at the moment.Unfortunately, my study of the history of disability indicates that things only change when there is a political imperative to have changes recognised, IE, if your government is going to gain some votes by a big campaign of disability based changes because disability is in, then! you might get some reforms.this might happen at some point in the future, but given the current dialogue on disability, and the fact that "dialogue" seems like a dirty word besides all the current rhetoric, I don't know when or if that will be.I admit I'm pretty jaded on disability activism on any sort of scale at the moment, indeed my personal advice would be that every disabled person needs to be their own advocate, since unless your minority of the month, the only person you can rely on is yourself, and the only way to get even small changes made is to learn to argue and fight battles, and frankly I'm bloody sick of fighting battles myself at the moment. Indeed I'll stop now before this gets to depressing, but suffice it to say, working in disability advocacy, both for this site, and by trying to change some things in Britain, and by doing research academically has just resulted in me being jaded on the hole bloody mess. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495195/#p495195 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism devinprater wrote:I try to discuss some of this in my blog, at http://devinprater.github.ioI try to learn as much about all this as I can, so please, I beg of you, correct anything I've gotten wrong, on my ideas and such. I want to do this activism and stuff the right way, and as a blind person brought up by the government, the Alabama School for the Blind, I don't know if even I am right, as my ideas are rooted in such of that which I've learned around here, and reading online and such. It's really hard when there's so much crap, and not enough great stuff on these real issues.Dude you're blind your perspective is important. Even if you have some facts wrong you represent a perspective of someone who struggles with this shit. You need to speak out. I'll check your blog out later. I really need to go out later though. I'll respond to other responses when I get back.What I'm really criticizing is this idea that we have to fight for ourselves or our "rights" rather than fighting these issues as a social problem, together. You contributing your opinion is part of that picture; but part of the problem with the fight right now is that certain people have gotten so much clout they can say whatever they want and are literally oppressing most of the voice. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495198/#p495198 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism devinprater wrote:I try to discuss some of this in my blog, at http://devinprater.github.ioI try to learn as much about all this as I can, so please, I beg of you, correct anything I've gotten wrong, on my ideas and such. I want to do this activism and stuff the right way, and as a blind person brought up by the government, the Alabama School for the Blind, I don't know if even I am right, as my ideas are rooted in such of that which I've learned around here, and reading online and such. It's really hard when there's so much crap, and not enough great stuff on these real issues.Dude you're blind your perspective is important. Even if you have some facts wrong you represent a perspective of someone who struggles with this shit. You need to speak out. I'll check your blog out later. I really need to go out later though. I'll respond to other responses when I get back. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/495198/#p495198 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Disability and Materialism
Re: Disability and Materialism (sorry I know I'm replying a lot in this thread a lot is on my mind)JaceK wrote:I feel like this whole 'the blind' and 'the sighted' thing needs to stop, really. What's with the automatic, instant hostility toward 'the sighted' exactly? I feel like the whole 'sighted' and 'the sighted' comes with a negative and hostile tone even if it's not meant as such when it's brought up or thrown into a post. Sowhat's with that?To me there's no need for it honestly.This is a problem that I think descends from blindness as an identity. You're right. Think about the material reality - blindness is legally determined by having worse than 20/200 vision. But that is nothing like the blindness that someone with glaucoma, or macular degeneration, or the wide variety of conditions that cause total blindness at birth. Every single case is unique, that the difference between blindness and sightedness is strictly social - and that can be overcome through accessibility.Blind people are naturally hostile to the outside though because they are treated consistently like so much shit because of this idea of a "blind person" that haunts society. If we saw blind people as people who needed specific accommodations rather than an archetype we wouldn't have this problem. The more everyone here looks at themselves as "other" the more it becomes. That's why accessibility is our most powerful tool but we have to look at it from a completely radical way that rejects the premises of disability individualism.I'm going to go out soon but there's a lot I want to talk about how we radicalize accessibility development through open source design. I'll dole that one out later.I still think the problem is one of majority though, meaning that no matter how much push and shove you put into it the battle will always be an uphill one. I remember a friend of mine putting it this way:Supposing of a sudden you could see the future and you were the only person who could. In and of itself that would make you absolutely astounding, unless you could teach it or somehow pass it down to everyone so they too could do it. Everyone who wasn't able to do it would suddenly be depending on everyone else who could. If you could teach it or pass it down by some means to all but a select few who for whatever odd reason could not learn or inherit it, that select few would always depend on those who could which would become the norm.I agree. But I think this is a problem that's fundamental to how we approach accessibility, as a sort of special knowledge that should be passed down from individuals rather than a social activity. For example, consider how you guys helped coach me while developing braillemon. While I was a developer and nobody contributed directly to the project, I was being guided to help develop braillemon rather than me making those assumptions based on the "idea" of a blind person. I learned a lot from that experience even though braillemon isn't exactly amazing; and ever since I've been trying to figure out how to distribute this responsibility of accessibility even more.I think that through open source software this is possible - one example is that you can literally build the software with blind developers who contribute towards the project.blindness is, sadly, the abnormality here. We depend on the majority who is sighted by virtue of the fact that it extends the amount of information one can "see," to use the word as you have. To see is to gather information around you for the sake of observation and whatnot. Our four other senses are nowhere near as strong or as complex as human sight. That makes human sight superior, and the 90plus percent of the world population who have it can hardly help but notice. that is normal.What I'm trying to convince you is that if we radically reframe disability as a social issue rather than an individual one, we can challenge these premises.Please do not take that to mean I find it acceptible... I do not. It just is, and to change it would require a move of mamoth, monumental proportions that undoes the stigma that is created by the normal flow of everyday life. I mean, as soon as people wake up they're using their eyes. They open them, look out from within them to the world around them to determine a myriad of things ranging from what time of day it is to where they are and so on. How nice it must be to be able to just look out the window if your bed is right next to it or across from it and see if the sun is up yet or not rather than having to pick up an iOS device or other such piece of tech to figure out what time it is.I agree, but that's no reason to not try. Every real step we make is a step closer towards that connection. It's true that you can't see the sun in t
