Re: Discussion: should volunteer content creators get rewarded?
2019-10-11
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : mektastic via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Discussion: should volunteer content creators get rewarded? I find this topic to be very fascinating. What I have not really heard a lot of on this thread is that while people may go in to building for the sheer love of the game, there are different forms of payment that we expect whether we admit it or not. I can only speak of my own experiences having staffed on several games during different periods of my gaming life.For me, I have always gone in to a staffing position with the idea that I get to do something awesome and see the game behind the scenes. I get to put my ideas to paper, have the ability to hammer something out and see something go from a seed of thought in to my mind to vibrant fruition. The payment that I expect, whether right or wrong, is validation. I I want to know that after all of those long hours of testing, balancing, building, rebalancing, going through the motions of getting feedback from staff is the validation of a job well done. We can talk about the love of building and the joy of selfless creative _expression_ all we want, but without those things, it is the most thankless of jobs. Support of the game owner is paramount. If I don't feel that, then my own willingness to keep going in this project that while on a voluntary basis is no less work is going to go down. Staff support and a cohesive team is the payment of being a part of a staff. Without those things, then it is not worth it to me. Let's face it, some parts of this gig is utterly thankless and hard, so those comments of support mean a great deal.I have never staffed on a game that paid any sort of virtual compensation, but as someone said above, it is important to know what you will or will not be getting in terms of payment upfront, whether it's just a 'hey, that is awesome, thanks for being a part of this team.' or some in-game virtual currency. I've never been lucky enough to work as a paid builder for Iron Realms (Hey guys, here I am if you want some of this writing!), but I think that what they do is awesome and sustainable because they are a for-profit business.I also loved the idea of what someone mentioned above in terms of allowing all players to be able to contribute and receive some in-game virtual currency, especially if you are a game that takes donations.Thanks for such a great topic, and shout out to all of you amazing content creators out here making the mudding landscape more fantastic because of your time, dedication, and imagination. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/467641/#p467641 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Discussion: should volunteer content creators get rewarded?
2019-10-10
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Vazbol via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Discussion: should volunteer content creators get rewarded? Huh, that made me think of something. Generally, when one uses the volunteer system, it tends to be in support of non-profit or charitable company event. When it is directly inolved in the financial aspects of another organization or business, it tends to be volunteered time for free work of the main organization's employee to provide a skill or service... for someone else. Generally, you really do not want to use volunteers for a for-profit endever without compensation, that tends to look really bad. Now, we're talking about compensating building staff in a game with a virtual currency purchased with actual currency. The volunteer work does financially benefit the main entities of the mud, with whatever contributions the volunteers build hopefully making players more motivated to throw cash. Even if the donations aren't a serious form of income for the game and its owners, its still getting income. At this point, mud builders in muds with a donation model are less volunteers and more unpaid part-time workers. I'm not sure how much time,, R& D and other such thing went into designing and programming the financial currency system, but I'm 99% sure it wasn't much. And it probably would not hurt a bottom line with a small staff to reward $5 of whatever currency per month for builders who perform consistent work. And realistically, none of them were probably going to spend $55 from January to November before dumping that $100-$200 donation on December. (scale upwards depending on average costs of donator perks that are commonly bought). TL-Dr: Muds who accept donations from players for perks should not be calling staff volunteers and compensate them in some minor form for part-time work with said virtual currency. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/467438/#p467438 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Discussion: should volunteer content creators get rewarded?
2019-10-10
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : dardar via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Discussion: should volunteer content creators get rewarded? The key word is, "voluntary." Indicating unpaid work.If it was paid work, it would be called "employment". Not to sound like a complete jackass, but this just seems like English 1o1 to me. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/467411/#p467411 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Discussion: should volunteer content creators get rewarded?
2019-10-09
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : gisco_tn via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Discussion: should volunteer content creators get rewarded? If we implemented payment for area completion on Alter Aeon, Dentin would owe me back pay of tens of thousands of credits!More seriously, as a builder on Alter Aeon (Draak), it is a bit annoying to see a new builder suggest being compensated for work I've been doing as a volunteer for decades. For me building is a labor of love, and that is motivation enough. Please understand if the suggestion of receiving credits rankled us a bit. I've watched dozens of builders fizzle out over the years, and it is often the kiss of death for them playing as well. Perhaps seeing the proverbial "man behind the curtain" sours the experience for them, or they don't find sufficient support to learn the syntax and dozens of commands that it takes to build, or they simply lacked the aptitude and attention span for building. I doubt a few bucks worth of credits is enough of a carrot to dangle in front of people if they aren't cut out for the grueling, time-consuming task of building.I probably have a very biased viewpoint as a "survivor" from back when builders built on a separate copy of the game called the builder's port. Training was generally a 5 minute tutorial from Vember. The wizhelp pages were much scantier and, due to the isolation, we often had no one to ask for help and might have to wait days to weeks for answers to questions, help, area checks, implementation and new racks. There are now building teams, a building system that is vastly more automated than it once was, and the wizhelp pages are much more fleshed out, plus there are building FAQs as well.In other news, Dentin has been hammering out system for measuring builder activity, and has given a few promotions to builders that meet certain criteria. I believe these are mostly cosmetic - I am not sure what his long-term plans are. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/467242/#p467242 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Discussion: should volunteer content creators get rewarded?
Re: Discussion: should volunteer content creators get rewarded? I'll say myself as someone who has worked voluntarily pretty extensively (witness this website), compensation in some concrete manner is actually a good thing when possible, albeit its obviously not always possible, however when it does exist it can actually be helpful to getting into the mode of getting jobs done. There are many people who will do something for the love of doing it, which is awesome and creates great content, however that also means they will only do something so long! as they love doing it.obviously, its not a stark divide between endlessly giving creative people on one side, and greedy, soulless prophet hogs on the other, however I will say that despite my wife's illness, recording the how to play demo for audio wizards was something I did fairly instantly, knowing that it would be a paid job, whereas as people notice the db has been slightly neglected of late due to me not really having the extra energy to spend investigating new games or fixing niggling little errors. this isn't to say: "pay me or nothing gets done!" of course I wouldn't have started working for this site if I didn't want to, only that when priorities become shortened, different things come to the for. At the moment my main focus, apart from looking after my wife is creative writing, when things become easier, IE when my lady is a bit better and I'm not having to run around as much, likely my focus will broader and I can do more things, including make a bunch of much needed site updates, however I can't deny that if I were receiving some sort of compensation, virtual or otherwise, it would likely be at least another major factor in me getting off my behind and getting more work done . URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/467121/#p467121 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Discussion: should volunteer content creators get rewarded?
2019-10-09
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Vazbol via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Discussion: should volunteer content creators get rewarded? if I remember right, Iron Realms games tend to provide two forms of compensation for their staff. Of course, being a full fledged business, they have staff positions, coders and the likes who are actually compensated with funding in full time positions. However, this isn't the only form of compensation, as of course these positions are limited in openings. Lore and area building tends to also be rewarded with the game's in game currency, and are not just limited to requiring building privileges. Even player side contributions are compensated with the in game currency for people who take part in the more RP and world building aspects of the game management process. And of course, the products are a lot higher quality, as compensation usually means the information and code needs to be vetted and approved by someone. Some other muds I also know tend to provide in game compensation for their volunteer staff, as not every mud has a financial model to pay their coders and builders. Of course, most of the work is done because the staff liked the game and were happy to contribute, but a bit of compensation and a vetting process tends to be best for all, assuring the content is polished for release, and staff are recognized for their work with some sort of token reward. However, I'd make the argument this should not be limited to purely staff positions, but allow any player with a form o responsibility on the game to get a minor form of compensation and formal review if they take up high positions in a game, such as guildmasters for rp muds, or as helpers. This opens up the possibility for these players to also have their conduct and contributions reviewed, to assure they're doing what they need to, and kick out those who are slacking in their duties. This assures a substaff that interacts more with players to be a bit more professional in context of the game. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/467083/#p467083 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Discussion: should volunteer content creators get rewarded?
2019-10-09
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Haramir via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Discussion: should volunteer content creators get rewarded? Hello folks. Don't have much to add to the discussion, I basically agree with Xoren and Ironcross. It depends on what is being said, if it is totally volunteer work, fine, I'd do it just for self enjoyment, but I don't think a kind of ingame compensation would turn things unfair if managed carefully.Best regards, Haramir. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/467076/#p467076 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Discussion: should volunteer content creators get rewarded?
2019-10-09
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : ironcross32 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Discussion: should volunteer content creators get rewarded? Building is its own enjoyment. Getting to write out descriptions and build new areas, fill them with things that make the world come to life. That's rich enough that I wouldn't feel the need for compensation. If it was offered, I wouldn't say no though. Also, here is another consideration. I kind of have it when I have it and just sort of lose my vision for an area sometimes. It might take me a month or two to get it back. If I force myself to build in that meantime in that same place, it's gonna suck, same if they're telling me I need to do it in a certain time frame. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/467071/#p467071 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Discussion: should volunteer content creators get rewarded?
2019-10-09
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : drums61999 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Discussion: should volunteer content creators get rewarded? So, several things. First, I don't think stopping anyone from becoming a builder is based on typo reports. If that were the case, I know of several who would not be. I have seen some of the typo logs and a lot of them are because people did not read correctly.Another thing to mention is that if it was during an event, there is a lot of criticism thrown at the staff during them, and they, quite understandably, have little patience. Could they do better? Absolutely. Are they stubborn? Yes. If you watched the interview of Morpheus, you can get a good understanding of why he is the way he is.They also don't take builders generally who are under a certain level, or hours played or something just because that person might not be familiar with much of the mud or have experience with the game as a whole.Back on topic though, I think in terms of muds, if you have played them enough to want to build, you should know what you're getting into. Like Liam said, voluntary work is voluntary. If they wanted to compensate in some small way, great, but I wouldn't do it because of the compensation. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/467068/#p467068 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Discussion: should volunteer content creators get rewarded?
Re: Discussion: should volunteer content creators get rewarded? I think this isn't a question that has black and white answers. There are definitely considerations in both angles to the process:If you enter into the content creation process with the foreknowledge that the endeavour is strictly voluntary, you shouldn't expect any rewards above and beyond the personal enjoyment of being able to create a product for others to enjoy. Imagine all the people who write freely available articles, programs, and various other resources that are provide gratis on the Internet. If they all expected some form of compensation, the world wide web would be a much different place.However, incentivised content creation processes tend to attract a lot more people, which in turn yields allot more products for your clientele -- and usually of a higher echelon of quality. If a person is producing something knowing that their time will be compensated for, even if only in a virtual form, they'll be much more motivated, knowing that their efforts are more readily appreciated by those in charge. In the case of Alter Aeon, for example, I'd be much more likely to design a large, detailed area if I knew I'd receive some form of reward for my player character, even if that reward were only aesthetic. Voluntarily, I might be less motivated to invest all of my efforts into creating a huge, complicated area, since I could be spending that same time actually improving said character.Alter Aeon will never incentivze their player builders, though. It's not an activity that's required, and if one player won't build for free, they'll just convince another one to. You'll just have to be satisfied with player / staff appreciation as your remuneration.In a side note, when I used to play Alter Aeon, the staff (mostly Morphius and Gandor) hated me because they used to swear their descriptions were the best, without flaw, and I would be able to go through almost any area and inundate them with about 50 typo reports based on either grammar for typographical errors. Not going to be shameful about the fact that it highly pleased me to knock them down a few pegs either.Kai URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/467061/#p467061 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Discussion: should volunteer content creators get rewarded?
Re: Discussion: should volunteer content creators get rewarded? I worked for a game back in the mid-2000s, and got no financial compensation for it. Built monsters, areas, quests, gear, the whole bit. I did not expect money. I wouldn't have said no, but that's not why I was there.That said, the question comes down to what's expected. If someone putters away doing half an hour here and there, then the onus to pay them or otherwise compensate them is pretty low. But if they're being expected to put in hours every day, I think that gets to a certain level where eventually if you spit on your builders/content creators hard enough, they're going to walk. The culture of the MUD or game in question has a huge effect on this.I'm not surprised that AA would laugh down your suggestion. Dentin has done a great deal to suck a lot of the fun out of that game, even though it's got really good balance for the most part (area exp denting, I'm looking at you). I feel like there's a core of a few main builders who, for all I know, don't get advantages because they're so all-powerful that they don't need them, really. That said, I once offered to be a builder on AA and was turned down, essentially because I had the nerve to correct Morpheus's spelling in a few low-level areas via the appropriate bug reports, which apparently pissed him off or hurt his feelings or whatnot. I'm not salty about this, even if I sound it; it just made me give my head a good hard shake, and is one of the reasons I don't play there a lot anymore. Point is, the community is such that I'm not surprised your idea got shot down. I wouldn't have wanted credits on AA, just the ability to learn to build, as it's something I enjoy.I'm working on a game these days (as in, it's an online RPG I'm a writer for). Same gig as back in the mid-2000s, but a bit different. I don't get paid and don't expect to. It's fun. I enjoy it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/467047/#p467047 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Discussion: should volunteer content creators get rewarded?
Re: Discussion: should volunteer content creators get rewarded? Voluntary work is just that. Voluntary. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/467045/#p467045 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Discussion: should volunteer content creators get rewarded?
2019-10-09
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : keyIsFull via Audiogames-reflector
Discussion: should volunteer content creators get rewarded? This is a discussion that should be interesting to have on here. The context I'm in is muds, but it could be extended to other games as well.how much compensation do official content creators deserve, especially on free to play games? Here, content creation is meant to mean the official content that keeps being rolled out even after the main game has been released and the mechanics mostly flushed out. For example, on Alter Aeon, players can work on new areas on special characters called builders, and these areas are then checked by a senior builder and released for the rest of the players. I suppose this would also include the people who create DLC. There is a fine balance that needs to be drawn when it comes to compensation. The best content is of course intrinsically motivated, as in the creator does it because he/she loves the game, as compared to extrinsic motivation which comes from the reward or compensation.I haven't done content creation on other muds so I don't know what sort of compensations the content creators get on those; I can only speak for alter aeon. On there, content creation has very little in the way of extrinsic motivation. A builder may get adulation from players, and for high level areas, players understand the value of powerful equipment and will visit an area over and over to get it. another extrinsic motivator for building an area is that one can create equipment that the game is lacking, though the rules imply that doing this too conspicuously is a big no-no. Intrinsically, one may get enjoyment from doing what he loves, whether that be writing, programming interesting quest lines, or mapping out the way an area will look.But great content wasn't built solely on intrinsic motivation; if it were, people would be happy to do their work for free. I do believe some amount of extrinsic motivation really helps keep people from burning out or succumbing to writer's block. On alter Aeon, I suggested that builders should get a small compensation for the work they did, to the tune of a few hundred credits with a sliding scale based on how much work they did. I was laughed down like the idea was ludicrous and was told that if a builder was working just to get the reward then they probably shouldn't be building (the incinuation was that I had asked to be a builder for that reason). I also think the way that the administration treats builders is generally neglectful, which is actually quite demotivating.The turnover rate of programmers on other muds is also a bit alarming. I know that some muds have really messy codebases because of the amount of turnover they've seen, and of course all programmers differ in coding style and conventions. It would be much more efficient to retain the same dedicated programmers since they know their architecture. That's another thing, these content creators aren't serious enough to keep software design documents around for future programmers, and of course they aren't to blame because it's a totally volunteer exercise and again, there's not much extrinsic motivation besides the possibility of giving power buffs to themselves or players whom they favor. Using power to unfairly favor others should of course not be allowed.Special Magic Games just paid for 10 tracks to be created for Sequence Storm's first pack of DLC, and the number I remember reading was about $600 for all of it. Of course, the DLC pack will cost extra money, and it's a mainstream game so the company will probably be able to make that back. Whereas these muds are free to play, so giving USD is probably not a good move business wise.So what do you think? How much do you think extrinsic motivators can help move the creative process? Should there be extrinsic motivators for a free to play game that mainly relies on volunteerism to continue making content? For volunteer content creation, what sorts of motivators do you think would work best to keep content creators around? How would you ensure that new content creators weren't doing shoddy work just for the extrinsic motivator, or do you think this is even a risk? Do you think the situation changes if the game in question supports microtransactions, and if so, how? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/467044/#p467044 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
