Re: Experiences with Infocom
Re: Experiences with Infocom Mmm, Dark, it sounds a lot like I'd have to actually observe you to see where the problem was, but it does sound to me like you're just not on the same plane as the authors for whatever reason. I certainly think there's a challenging mindset to go with a lot of early IF which emphasised much more direct player involvement than story-based IF, and perhaps especially with Infocom, and this may very well be a mark against IF as a genre, but I'm convinced that the mechanics are completely consistent and within the grasp of players who choose to indulge them. Babel definitely sounds more "Serious" to me (I've never played it), and it may just be that you prefer serious IF because you hate the distraction of puzzles, much as some claim to hate the distraction of text input. But I still can't understand how that's possible. How can you, when confronted with an amusing challenge to your faculties, reject the opportunity to discover the answer, whether by fair means or foul? It seems impossible to me. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=181130#p181130 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
Re: Experiences with Infocom I never minded the fun, I am indeed a huge fan of the h2g2 radioplay and books, one reason I wanted to try the original game. My problem with the puzzles is the first couple of times I encountered them in If I'd think "oh that's how!" and smile as you described, but when it seemed to be every few paragraphs? I just got to thinking "what a crappily designed program if you expected people to type such drek" Ironically, the more fun the world, the more interesting things were to explore, and the more I wanted to get on with the story and see how to participate in the quest and solve things, the more frustrating I'd find being stuck for a long time working out some ridiculous puzzle. This is I think my problem. I personally want interactive fiction to let me participate in the story and the fiction the way a gamebook would, to get emotioally invested to start thinking "oh dear t his is a huge cave full of monsters how do I get through?" or "oh drat! that is a troll I don't know how I'm going to get past it" This is why i love rpgs with tactical combat, or gamebooks, sinse you always have an idea to progress and things to try and are fully immersed in the story and world. with most of the If I've got stuck on I find myself getting to a point where I think "I don't want to be just constantly trying to unlock this door or whatever, I want to get on with the bloody plot and see what comes next!" Of course, with the better if, babel, worlds apart etc, this never happens sinse the actions to be taken to complete the puzzles are integral to the plot aand setting, and not external to it. They are not abstract turns of logic which must then be phrased in such a way as the parser can understand so much as they are applications of knolidge ganed already throughout the adventure. Take the trap puzzle for the inquisitor. You are told by looking at father Nicholas' notes that you need to make a catalyst potion, and need an acorn. Examining the courtyard and squirrel you are told you can't get close. Looking at the sticks and stones your told "perfect to trap a small rodent" all the elements are there within the story and plot, you just need to look around and find them, and then combine them in the right way. Yes, this is very different from the abstractions required of something like the h2g2 puzzles, but to me it's far more satisfying sinse it means maximum immersion within the story, at no point do you forget what your doing, and you'll also never run into "I don't know how to put" or other situations where your trying a perfectly simple solution or command but one that the author of that game just didn't happen to think of, indeed as I've said before I personally view the open parser of most if as more a hindrance to the plot than a help. I'll try wishbringer if I ever feel like some old style parser if. i certainly wil agree with you on the great writing and atmosphere of the infocom games, I just wish they had done a better job of letting you interact with the story and not having those stupid puzzles get in the way. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=181057#p181057 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
Re: Experiences with Infocom By "Relate", I mean that you're supposed to go, "Ah, I see! Obvious, now you put it like that," and carry on playing with a smile on your face, which doesn't appear to be happening for you, for whatever reason which I can't figure out. That's a puzzler. Certainly H2G2 had some infuriating puzzles, and I think Adams (and Meretzky) deserve a lot of the credit for setting the genre back a couple of decades. I also think H2G2 (and most of Meretzky's work at Infocom) was some of the best IF ever written, and deserved a good chunk of the acclaim and endearment that it got. Yes, times have changed and there's a lot to be said for "Serious" IF, but H2G2 and a lot of Infocom was all about fun and shouldn't be proving to be a chore. H2G2 takes a little while to warm up--perhaps that's your real issue with it?Wis hbringer is a standalone story; you don't need any knowledge of Zork. Go ahead; it's a lot of fun. I surprised myself by playing it, very late on, on a day when I couldn't have needed it more. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=181028#p181028 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
Re: Experiences with Infocom I'm not sure what you mean about "relate to the puzzles" there sebby. What I found with h2g2, is I'd wander around, get to a situation, try to solve for a while, get frustrated then use the hints. This wouldn't matter if it was once or twice, but it seemed to be nearly constant, heck when i got to the dreaded babel fish, I tried myself, used the first hint, did that a couple of times then went through the entire 15 or so hints sinse that one is so ridiculous, I actually thought Adams line at around hint 13 "This is the point brave men start to cry" was quite apt :d.This is what I mean with Parser games and hints though. I haven't tried wishbringer, mostly because I didn't fancy playing any of the later zorks before finishing the earlier ones, although my practical chance of getting through the earlier ones is not high . URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=180857#p180857 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
Re: Experiences with Infocom Moonmist is OK, but I recommend Wishbringer. It's a charming story, but it's still very straightforward to play and has very simple puzzles to figure out.IMO, it's not looking at the hints that's the problem, it's looking at the hints without realising the significance of the puzzles that is. If you use hints simply to progress, obviously you aren't gaining anything, but if you can relate to the puzzles once you have learned their solutions, then you're really onto something. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=180826#p180826 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
Re: Experiences with Infocom I might give that a go next time I'm considdering playing some traditional parser if, though to be honest with all the really wonderful stuff that is being done in terms of other types of interactive stories, gamebooks, adventure games etc there is probably a lot for me to do first. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=180794#p180794 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
2014-07-15
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : nina0116 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom If you are looking for an Infocom game to try with out using hints, try out moonmist. This was my first game, and is the one that got me hooked on Infocom games. The game is still not easy, but I don't remember any guess the verb problems. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=180786#p180786 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
Re: Experiences with Infocom I don't know, being capable of logic will probably proove a hindrance given how insane the puzzles are . The infocom game I have got furthest in his h2g2, however again there I was using the hints, actually rather a lot which sort of put me off playing sinse if I need to be resorting to hints that much I might as well be reading normal fiction. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=180714#p180714 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
2014-07-14
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : welshweyr via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom I completed Zork 1 once but I had to use the hints. I really must give these games another try now that I'm a bit older and capable of logical thought. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=180664#p180664 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
Re: Experiences with Infocom Ah, well given my lack of progress in original Zork I never fancied either of the others beyond a few screens of random wandering, which explains why I never ran into this one. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=179565#p179565 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
2014-07-04
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : welshweyr via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom @Dark, I should probably clarify that this is from Zork III, not the original Zork game. I completely agree about the unintuitive commands though. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=179544#p179544 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
Re: Experiences with Infocom I can't say I got that far in zoark, however I think This illustrates my point quite well. I doubt I'd have used "put string in brick" either sinse to me "putting something in! something means inside of. If however this were a puzzle with the generic use command it wouldn't be hard at all, use string with brick. "burn string" is not a command I'd have chosen either, sinse "light string" would seem to be the more correct english term when talking about dynamite. i agree having the correct verb in description as some muds do is also a good idea. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=179475#p179475 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
2014-07-04
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : welshweyr via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom Oh, put string "in" brick. I didn't think that it should be "in" I thought you put it "on" or attach it "to" the brick. Thank you. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=179443#p179443 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
2014-07-03
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : jaybird via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom That's the thing about IF. A puzzle that's impossible for one person to solve without some help is a piece of cake for someone else. Sometimes this even applies to Guess the Verb problems. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=179408#p179408 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
2014-07-03
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : nina0116 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom you simply put string in brick, then drop brick, then burn string. I am suprized that this puzzle is concittered difficult, as I thaught of this solution the first time I played. However to be fair, I did die when the hole ledge colappased. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=179402#p179402 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
2014-07-03
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : welshweyr via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom I don't think the verb issue would be such an emotive one if the verbs were linked with the descriptions on the screen. A lot of MUDs with puzzle elements, Valhalla for example, encourage you to "look" at objects in the room to learn about them and get clues as to how they might interact. I remember a puzzle in Zork II where you had to use some string and dynamite to blow up a rock which had inexplicably been placed across an entrance way inside a building(?) Obviously there is a way to do it but I never did solve how to make that device, no matter how many times I "looked", "examined" or "investigated" the components.The idea of a much more complicated interface for IF-style games sounds too clunky for most single-player games. They're pretty much the point of most MUDs though where spells and abilities have been developed more fully. Many of them include verb help files as well. They are pretty big though, in most cases. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=179316#p179316 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
Re: Experiences with Infocom Well Ian, that's an interesting thought and funnily enough "put" I find one of the most annoying verbs in the if lexicon. However my problem is that if it was extensive enough to make sense it would likely also have to be long and clunky to read and probably not likely to serve a player well in the game sinse the player wouldn't be able to remember all the commands in every situation they would be required. I've seen several if games that provide a cursery help, but that's rarely been of use. Myself, I prefer the limited system where a player is simply directly given a list of verbs to choose from, or wheere a player's actions are simplified by just being asked to use ageneric "use" or "use with" type of verb as happens in games like the inquisitor or Eamon. For example there is a section in the Eamongame thraw's ring where the player has a stick with a hook and comes across a t iny hole in one of the flag stones on the floor.In traditional infocom style if this could be a real beast of a puzzle. "hook hole with stick?" "open stone with stick" "lever stone with stick" In the eamon game however simply "use hook with hole" is all that's needed, and sinse "use" is the generic verb for most item manipulations in Eamon it's not so difficult for the player. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=179274#p179274 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
Re: Experiences with Infocom I haven't played much IF, but it does seem like every IF game should give a list of valid verbs for a single object and another list for use with multiple objects so that we can avoid the guess the verb problem.So for instance:pull object.push object.take object.eat object.smell object.examine object.smash object.step on object.jump on object.wear object.look through object.Just to list a few, but I could easily imagine coming up with 20 or 30.Even if some of them are rarely used it makes sense to list them so the player is aware of valid actions.Then have some for 2 objects:put object1 in object 2smash object1 with object2take object1 from object2combine object1 with object2eat object1 with object2push object1 with object2pull object1 with object2And the parser could add variants to the syntax such as take object1 out of object 2 instead of take object1 from object 2 so both are valid.And add extra verbs that are synonyms to make things feel more natural, such as crush object1 working the same as smash object1.But one form of every possible action should be listed.And in fact it should only be one form of every action because you don't want a player to have to guess between put object1 in object2, and place object1 in object2, when either one should do the same thing.This doesn't stop the issue where puzzles are bizarre and counter-intuitive, but at least we have a reasonable set of actions to try on every object in the game.It also wouldn't solve the case where you want to put a cup on the table but that action wasn't programmed in.Though if it wasn't programmed in then obviously it's not the correct action to progress in the game.You only truly get that type of free form experience in RP with a human GM.I remember some point and click adventure games would use the mouth symbol only for if you wanted to talk to something.And others would sometimes use it to talk and other times use it to eat.Having a larger list of verbs than point and click games would allow for more exactness in the players intent while still listing them so we don't hit the problem with the fireplace that Dark mentioned in post 17.As another random thought.I used to play a series of point and click adventures called "Quest for Glory".These included RPG elements as your player could learn spells and increase his combat stats.Spells were learned through interactions in the environment rather than when you gain a level.And the first game let you choose to be a fighter, theif, or magic user, so spells weren't even required to solve the puzzles of the game, but they did provide alternative solutions to the puzzles.As an example of 1 of the puzzles:You came across a waterfall with a cliff ledge above it and something that looked like a stone door that was only accessible if you could get onto the ledge.Possible ways to solve it were:1. If you had the climbing skill you could try to climb it, depending on how experienced you were at climbing you might slip off or you might succeed.Either way you'd lose stamina.2. If you were a magic user you could use the reveal magic spell to make a ladder appear.The magically hidden ladder was placed there by the hermit that lives behind the stone door.If you got in by some other means then the hermit would tell you about the ladder so that was always an option for future visits.3. You could throw rocks at the stone door until the hermit got angry about the noise and came out to see who was throwing rocks.Then through conversation you could convince him to make the ladder appear so you could climb it and visit with him.Climbing a ladder required no climbing ski ll.The game also let you specify whether you wanted to be walking, sneaking, or running as you moved.This way stealth could play a role in certain parts of the game.Interactive Fiction could also list verbs like those that change your general behavior but are not performed on a specific object.Sneaking being an obvious one.Hiding being another that could be used in combination with other actions to get passed a troll or some such.But again, I think it's important to give the player a list of possible actions because leaving them with the entire english language as a list of options doesn't work well since the game designer can support only a small subset of it in code anyway. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=179258#p179258 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
Re: Experiences with Infocom I completely agree welshweyr about absorbing story being the key factor, and those if I've most enjoyed had that, however when I found an if such as h2g2 which indeed had! that story then got stuck on some insane logi puzzle I just found myself frustrated! This I think is one of the reasons I prefer gamebooks or limited parser games. An eamon game like Thraw's ring or Stronghold of ka-dur, not to mention a gamebook such as zombie exodus has an awsome story and great writing,however I know! I have a reasonable chance at the solution. If (or more often than not when), I die or get stuck It doesn't matter, there is always a way to progress. That doesn't usually seem the case in if due to the parser problems I mentioned, sinse usually when I get stuck in an if game it's either time for the solution, or giving up. This is also where rpg mechanics can be fun, sinse tactical play is also something you can cl early see what you did wrong at. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=179244#p179244 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
2014-07-02
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : welshweyr via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom Even though real-time FPS games like Shades of Doom and Swamp got me totally hooked, I don't think even Swamp gave me the same complete epiphany that I got when I started playing Infocom IF games. I agree with Dark in some senses because Beyond Zork was my favourite beyond any doubt and that was because it had an RPG element with asignable stats, a character levelling system and different options for what you could do with many of the items.I think that IF needs an absorbing atmosphere and compelling story. If it doesn't have that, it's just a logic puzzle or flow chart. You could just make a maze and run your finger around it to solve it. That wuld get pretty boring pretty quickly if you didn't have something new and interesting at each corner to make you want to turn it and find out what came next. That was where IF really stood out for me: its ability to reel me into a story completely. FPS games are great because of the pace, the 3D environment and t he sound effects but a good story trumps that any day.In terms of Infocom particularly, I've always enjoyed it. I do agree that some of the puzzles were counter-intuitive and utterly bizarre. I pride myself on my random and unhinged thought processes but 1980s game designers were a whole level on from that. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=179234#p179234 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
Re: Experiences with Infocom I would agree Sebby that a tabletop rp game isn't if, I just gave the example sinse it seems in if the program is trying to do what a human gm does, but can't do it as wel due to the fact it is a computer program. You are likely right that Malinch should've thought of the various sudonims for getting the item from the fireplace, however it seems that those sorts of instances are worryingly common. Games that don't have them and freely allow me to make engage in what actions I want are great, but unfortunately it seems those are the minority as I've said. I don't personally see gamebooks, limited parser games or menu based interfaces for interactive fiction (or interactive stories anyway), as cheats to the player, rather I seem them as an appropriate set of controls for the game that allow the player enough freedom to have a varied and distinct experience that can change when done well, but don't leave the pla yer guessing for the correct in put, though of course there are instances of bad gamebooks, limited parser games etc. As I said, it is entirely possible I'm being a little too harsh where if is concerned, however I can't deny I've had more fun and less frustration with the types of games I've mentioned than with open parser if. I do in fact sometimes wonder if the very shift of the mainstream away from completely open parser to the point and click adventures in the early to mid 90's wasn' wasn't partly to do with this fact. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=179150#p179150 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
Re: Experiences with Infocom @Dark: And that's just it; the author really *should* have thought of those responses, and the parser should be able to accept your subconscious inputs representing your intentions in plain English. I'd also argue that a roller game isn't IF, because once again you're accommodating a lack of flexibility in the input method by rewriting the rules dynamically, rather than improving the game world model so that it can accommodate your intentions. I do see where you are coming from, and agree that friction in any medium (including text input) is a problem. I just think we should work on removing that friction, instead of tricking the player into making do with less.But of course, that's just my opinion. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=179120#p179120 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
Re: Experiences with Infocom @Dark: And that's just it; the author really *should* have thought of those responses, and the parser should be able to accept your subconscious inputs representing your intentions in plain English. I'd also argue that a roller game isn't IF, because once again you're accommodating a lack of flexibility in the input method by rewriting the rules dynamically, rather than improving the game world model so that it can accommodate your intentions.But of course, that's just my opinion. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=179120#p179120 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
2014-07-01
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : nina0116 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom As one who has owned 31 of the Infocom games, I can see how someone would get really upset with the interface in inf. I know that I had a real problem with "suspended" and it took a walkthrough to help me complete it. On the other hand the first 4 Zork games in the "Lost Treasures of Infocom" collection, "Zork, Zork2, Zork3, and Beyond Zork" was some of the most fun I have ever had playing a game. Also I don’t agree that there is no replay value in any of these games. Every time I play Zork or another game in the collection I try and complete the game in a shorter time then the last time I played. Yes it can be a pane, but over all I think Infocom games are some of the best made games ever made. That is except for Zork Zero, I wish that game wasn’t graphical! URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=179104#p179104 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
to be honest sebby I disagree on the freedom angle. You are still and always dealing with a computer program, admittedly a very clever and sophisticated one, but one which has no actual cognitive grasp of what is happening and cannot respond dynamically the way a human Gm can. Take the troll in zork. If I encountered the troll in a tabletop game, probably the last thing I'd do is either fight it or give it the food, I'd try to think of a more interesting solution. Maybe I'd have my character rub the clove of garlic on some convenient cloth and chuck that over the troll's nose and eyes, thus making it unable to smell or hear then sneak past it. Or maybe I'd stand on the steps above the troll and drop something heavy down on it's head. Or maybe I'd insult the troll then lead it to the waterfall, get it to charge then have it fall off. All of these would be valid responses to a troll in a tabletop game, and sinse you'd have a human Gm who was as adaptable as you, she/he could have the troll respond accordingly. In tradditional if though, you can't do any of these things unless the author of the game happened to think of it. What is equally frustrating is that you might have the right idea, but the wrong way of phrasing your command. For example in the Pentori prequel there is a fireplace, which when you examine it with something gleaming in it. i tried get all fireplace, enter fireplace, north (sinse I was at the north end of the hall), and various other commands. the game kept telling me "i don't know how to" the correct command as it turned out (and it took an E-mail to malinch to find this), was in! for goodness sake! _place_holder; To me that "freedom" you speak of is more like playing an action game with no information about what the keyboard controls are. Your hitting every letter on the keyboard and function key trying to find what is jump, what is run, what is shoot and getting no where. I personally don't care about the in put in if. I want my in put (as in any game), to facilitate my interaction, to let me control my character's actions and progress through the challenges of the game, not to be a constant barrier in which I'm playing "guess the commamnd" with the author. Myself, I tend to think if a computer game is a program, treat it like one. computer programs are only adaptable within a certain marjin of error, so why not treat them as such/ after all if games like the choiceofgames titles, certain of the better quality Eamons such as Runcible cargo or Thraw's ring, not to mention games like King of Dragon pass show, you don't need to rely on the player guessing the intentions of the author to have a complex and many layered game with multiple actions and consequences. Indeed I'd argue that with a limited parser it is easier for players to find! those extra pathways and scenes sinse they are more clearly able to determine what they have not tried before and try something else in the future. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=179037#p179037 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
@Dark: Fair enough, I can see why you'd pursue other kinds of IF than contemporary (not getting into the usual debates about what "Contemporary" actually means, naturally) in that case. Maybe I am a bit of an IF purist, but it does seem to me like surrender to neglect one of the most important aspects of IF, namely complete freedom. Obviously there is theory and there is practice, but I find most IF meets the criteria fairly well, as long as it's well-designed and the responses are flush with the story, as they so often were with Infocom. But each to his own. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=179034#p179034 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
Re: Experiences with Infocom Well Sebby, I will confess I don't actually play much if anymore precisely because! of the parser problem. I used to play a considderrable amount in 2005-7, including infocom classics but I just got severely tired of four out of every six games I played ending with one of those "I don't know how to put" type of encounters or some ridiculously illogical situation, or of having to constantly use hints or a walkthru. I did play some very lovely if, and I don't doubt there is much more out there, I just got a little tired of having to search for it, and also tired of finding a really great game I wanted to progress through but couldn't due to said issues, this is likely why the Parser issue bothers me so much, it pretty much soured me on the hole genre which is likely an unfare generalization. But as I said I got a little sick of trying to pull the wheet from the chaff when there appeared to be so much chaff, especially sinse gamebooks, object mani pulation games like Inquisitor, limited Parser titles like Eamon or Kerkerkruip, or even occasionally muds and browser games could provide me the good parts of If, participation in a story, mental challenge without stupidity, emotional connection and exploration of a detailed world or setting, without the bad bits. As regards why I specifically have trouble with parser and puzzles I don't know. Maybe it is that my thought processes tend to be a little more rarified and less streight forward than most other people's, indeed this is one reason i enjoy tabletop rp sinse my most whacky plans are quite possible to a human Gm, or maybe it is just that I am more interested in interactive fiction exploring the setting, examining everything, learning the history and completing the story than solving random puzzles. Or maybe it is that I tend to prefer situations like combat or resource management where i am presented with a limited number of options or resources and required to make the best of them, (particularly if such challenges are well described and fit into the over all framework of the mythos and story like those in King of dragon pass), rather than a static puzzle of scratching my head over some eccentric turn of logic, like how to open the locked box with the stickk, the garden shears and the slice of chocolate cake. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=179008#p179008 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
Re: Experiences with Infocom @Dark: I don't think anybody would disagree that getting stuck for half an hour fighting a parser is acceptable. Clearly, that's a failure case. Have you tried beta-testing IF? Your feedback would surely be valuable.Of course, one might wonder why others do not seem to have the same issues with quite such regularity as you appear to, even when you take into account the shift in tone from amusingly literary puzzle-solving to emotional and deeply-integrated plot lines. I just can't answer that question for you, I'm afraid. No insult intended. I know for a fact you're not the only one. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=178999#p178999 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
Re: Experiences with Infocom I disagree on the cheating there Sebby, just because I've always found games with limited parsers (however the dam word is spelled), or with choice interactions much more interesting than if puzzles of the guess the verb variety, sinse I tended to find that after half an hour or an hour of just trying random commands for simple actions I'd pretty much lose interest as I'd want to carry on with the exploring and the story not be stuck typing endless varients of put x on y. I fully agree about the world and writing in the Infocom adventures, I just never found the puzzles, at least in the game's I've tried such as Arthur, zork, H2g2 and planet fall to really hold my interest for long periods, sinse I'd much rather have a tactical challenge or a game like Eamon or Inquisitor with a limited parser where it was a use x on x type situation, meaning that examining each object and trying varients will always come up with the correct solution.URL : http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=178865#p178865 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
Re: Experiences with Infocom Well there's always "Reliques of Tolti-Aph" if you want "RPG elements" in a conventional IF game.While I certainly understand the desire to simplify the environment for the sake of playability, I also think it's cheating, in a big way. As to Infocom, GameDev practically answered his own question. Yes, they really were great. (Except the copy-protection nonsense; we could've done without that.)URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=178861#p178861 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
2014-06-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : blindncool via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom About infocom: I was emerced in the atmosphere, every time: Be it aboard the Diving Ship in cutthroats, or Searching the dim caverns of Zork, or searching for ancient egyptian treasure in infidel etc. The puzzles boggled my mind, and forced me to think about my current situation. The writing was supurb. Something that most IF authors really lack is writing talent, but Infocom had it. Everything was well crafted, as a painting is crafted by a brilliant artist.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=178859#p178859 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
2014-06-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : jaybird via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom Just a note here. The word is parser, not parza. That part of an IF program which accepts input from the player, analyses it to see if it constitutes a valid command, breaks it into words and finds verbs and objects matching those words, executes other parts of the program to perform the appropriate actions based on player commands, and complains loudly if it can't make sense of what you typed is called the parser, p, a, r, s, e, r.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=178848#p178848 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
Re: Experiences with Infocom That is true Ianr. Every rpg I've seen written in standard if languages, not to mention several like the Eamon games that aren't has got absolutely bombed by tradditionalist if players in spag and other magazines. for me, a strategical challenge where I'm asked (as in kerkeruip), to react to certain threats, a limited parza challenge where I'm just given various objects to use (as in Eamon), or even a bit of random dice rolling is a much more interesting thing than trying to guess the verb or particularly obscure action that occurred to the author. In fairness I've played some wonderful if, world's appart for example, where the puzzles natrually flowed through examining the environment, where I never felt stuck, and where the commands weren't a hindrance, but for every good game ran into 4 bad ones which were either impossible to complete, or required spamming of the hints. This is particularly frustrating when the games writing, se tting and atmosphere are really unique, but rather than being immersed in them and finding challenges that result from them I'm just hammering away at different ways of trying to get my character to do something normal like ware a shoe, turn on a tap or look in a fireplace (all of these real examples from games I've played).this is indeed why i suspect if got replaced in mainstream by point and click adventures with limited parza. Indeed these days if I want a story based game I'd rather play something like inquisitor or a gamebook like lone wolf or the choiceofgames stuff than pound my head against yet another wall in a twisty little passage .URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=178842#p178842 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
Re: Experiences with Infocom Dark said RPG mechanics, not rig mechanics.And he's saying that the Interactive Fiction (IF) community does not like RPG mechanics in their IF games.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=178812#p178812 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
2014-06-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : GameDev via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom Why is rig mechanics a bad word?URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=178810#p178810 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Experiences with Infocom
Re: Experiences with Infocom Writing great, exploring great, puzzles bloody dam annoying! Oh Infocom is what started the if traddition of guess the verb and the confusing and over complex parza that has largely put me off standard if games these days. "Oh so i had to open the locked door by playing the flute to call the bird out of it's nest, then stealing the egg, then focusing the sun's light with the magnifying glass on the wizard's letter to start a fire, breaking the egg with the shoe and frying it on the fire to produce oil which I could then oil the door's hinges with, oh how stupid of me not to realize!" All of my favourite if have been those games where the puzzles were organic with the environment, or where the parza didn't leave you with silly messages like "I don't know how to put" when your trying something simple like putting a cup on the table. While I can respect infocom as a legendary game creator, especially coming u p with such a universal system as Zcode, and while I do admire the atmosphere and writing I actually think text games work better with fewer commands and puzzles that are actually possible, not to mention that thing which is a bad word in the If community, rpg mechanics .URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=178784#p178784 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Experiences with Infocom
2014-06-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : GameDev via Audiogames-reflector
Experiences with Infocom For anyone who has played Infocom games -- how was your experience with them?For anyone who hasn't played Infocom games -- go play them. They were some of the best games made.URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=178780#p178780 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
