Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development pauliyobo wrote:sorry, but you're not making much sense.What ever. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444965/#p444965 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development sorry, but you're not making much sense. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444961/#p444961 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development pauliyobo wrote:would you explain how exactly, is it too much?What kind of explanation do you ask?it is what i see from my view point. i can't give you numbers nor did i count it.i can add same openion about built in functions, although i find them useful, thus why many people thing Python is slower than the wrest. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444959/#p444959 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development would you explain how exactly, is it too much? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444950/#p444950 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development Sam_Tupy wrote:lol um, ok. We trust in 3rd party libs when we use python too much? I like, don't even know where to start. Better not use C++ on windows because you have to include windows.h unless you want to recode everything from scratch. Chances are the sockets implementation you code from scratch will not be nearly as efficient as the one microsoft set up, which has been tested by millions and millions of people. So you agree with the op? You realize that in C# anything that starts with System in a namespace you are using is most likely part of the standard lib? C# would be pretty useless without the .net framework and all of it's features. So if you agree with the op you are also contradicting your very own point. Everyone uses both 3rd party and standard libs. In C# if you want sound your probably not going to write your own sound library that interfaces with the OS's sound drivers to produce output. You'll use something that's already there, created by people who were solely focused on providing a sound library. As for python, are you saying that it's flawed because other people do the grunt work of coding tasks to work on multiple platforms that are commonly used rather than having the users do that all themselves? At least to me, your point is utterly nonsensical and confusing. I'm really curious to know what you mean when you say we use too many libraries in python. Do you have a phobia of the python import statement? it's not that i m totally against using libs, what i say is, it's too mutch n Py community.Thank you for discovering my import statement phobia URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444912/#p444912 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development lol um, ok. We trust in 3rd party libs when we use python too much? I like, don't even know where to start. Better not use C++ on windows because you have to include windows.h unless you want to recode everything from scratch. Chances are the sockets implementation you code from scratch will not be nearly as efficient as the one microsoft set up, which has been tested by millions and millions of people. So you agree with the op? You realize that in C# anything that starts with System in a namespace you are using is most likely part of the standard lib? C# would be pretty useless without the .net framework and all of it's features. So if you agree with the op you are also contradicting your very own point. Everyone uses both 3rd party and standard libs. In C# if you want sound your probably not going to write your own sound library that interfaces with the OS's sound drivers to produce output. You'll use something that's already there, created by people who were solely focused on providing a sound library. As for python, are you saying that it's flawed because other people do the grunt work of coding tasks to work on multiple platforms that are commonly used rather than having the users do that all themselves? At least to me, your point is utterly nonsensical and confusing. I'm really curious to know what you mean when you say we use too many libraries in python. Do you have a phobia of the python import statement? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444839/#p444839 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development not only c++ but also c it's self. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444835/#p444835 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development Then C++ is also the kid's language and it is just for training because you need to include different libraries for nearly everything mid level you want to do. Even if you want to have strings you gotta include a library. That's not the best term to use for languages like python. You better just say I don't like programming languages that rely on too much libraries for a simple application. It's your opinion but then again, You gotta make yourself feel ok with it because nearly all popular languages are like this. Even c#.More code doesn't make you a real programmer, and it's no way luxury. Sorted code and less code whenever you can, youhelp you optimize your application and when a real programmer sees your optimized app, along its sorted code with no too much code when is not needed, finds out you're a good programmer. Otherwise there are even hello world programs that are so big. Try googling the largest hello world sourcecode. I once saw people writing those on stack overflow URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444819/#p444819 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development Then C++ is also the kid's language and it is just for training because you need to include different libraries for nearly everything mid level you want to do. Even if you want to have strings you gotta include a library. That's not the best term to use for languages like python. You better just say I don't like programming languages that rely on too much libraries for a simple application. It's your opinion but then again, You gotta make yourself feel ok with it because nearly all popular languages are like this. Even c#.More code doesn't make you a real programmer, and it's no way luxury. Sorted code and less code whenever you can, youhelp you optimize your application and when a real programmer sees your optimized app, along its sorted code with no too much code when is not needed, knows you that you're a good programmer. Otherwise there are even hello world programs that are so big. Try googling the largest hello world sourcecode. I once saw people writing those on stack overflow URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444819/#p444819 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development Then C++ is also the kid's language and it is just for training because you need to include different libraries for nearly everything mid level you want to do. Even if you want to have strings you gotta include a library. That's not the best term to use for languages like python. You better just say I don't like programming languages that rely on too much libraries for a simple application. It's your opinion but then again, You gotta make yourself feel ok with it because nearly all popular languages are like this. Even c#. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444819/#p444819 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development Then C## is also the kid's language and it is just for training because you need to include different libraries for nearly everything mid level you want to do. Even if you want to have strings you gotta include a library. That's not the best term to use for languages like python. You better just say I don't like programming languages that rely on too much libraries for a simple application. It's your opinion but then again, You gotta make yourself feel ok with it because nearly all popular languages are like this. Even c#. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444819/#p444819 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development @64, this is complete nonsense. Every programming language requires on libraries of some kind. The amount of the libraries it relis on is irrelevant unless the developer includes an unnecessarily large amount of them that it doesn't use. The thing that matters to most developers who are creating software is that the software is that it works properly and does what it is intended to do. The refactoring process -- removing unnecessary clutter and cleaning up the code -- comes later. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444811/#p444811 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development pauliyobo wrote:@57It seems? Seems to you, or seems in general? I'd say it seems only to you.So if people use libraries they don't know how to code and they are not properly coding?So the software developers who create software with third party libraries are not properly coding? Wow man, you truly are awesome.i've said they put too mutch trust on it, understandable eh?No need to be fan of any language. as an old scool geek i would think every programing lang has their own advantages and disadvantages but, again Python community rely on too mutch premade stuff. like it or not imho. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444806/#p444806 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development OP is loony. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444794/#p444794 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development LOL guys, i'm tempted to act like jonikster. During the last few weeks, I went through the topics in this room, picking up a few tips and answers here and there. There were loads of questions with subjective answers, or questions whose answers could be easily obtained through other means. What's the best programming language for audiogame development, How can I learn bgt/python/c#, What language is better x or y, ETC. The annoying thing was that the majority of such questions were posed by jonikster. After a while, I began to pick up the pattern: Whenever I would see a question or topic like that, I was like, oh here's another jonikster topic. The point is, After all those pointless topics, he still manages to catch the attention of the community and get a lot of replys, causing his topic(s) to stay on the top of the dev room for a while. Ethin gave a good reason for this, which was to make sure that new developpers don't get misled with his biased opinions and his wrong information. However, I do think a better solution is to ignore such topics of his entirely, except 1 detailed reply from the knowledgeable programmers such as Ethin himself, to make sure that those who stumble upon his topics do not get any wrong ideas from him. This way, compared to the current state of his topics, the risk of new devs seeing his topics would be much lower. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444790/#p444790 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development @57It seems? Seems to you, or seems in general? I'd say it seems only to you.So if people use libraries they don't know how to code and they are not properly coding?So the software developers who create software with third party libraries are not properly coding? Wow man, you truly are awesome. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444776/#p444776 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development And in using other languages, you would also try to get as much libraries as possible to help you. It's not like Python is the reason we use libraries, libraries are the reason we use libraries I don't think this is children's play. Why should anybody reinvent the wheel? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444767/#p444767 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development And in using other languages, you would also try to get as much libraries as possible to help you. It's not like Python is the reason we use libraries, libraries are the reason we use libraries URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444767/#p444767 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development I can't particularly say it feels that way whenever I make tiny little test games with Python.It might be like that because python just feels, easy.There's not really much static typing and things like that. Python lets you get away with many more things than you can in say, Rust, I should know because it loves to pop up errors at me URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444759/#p444759 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development Ethin wrote:I'm confused by 53. Python is not a kids language. Just because its used on the raspberry Pi doesn't mean its specificly for kids. Google uses it exclusvely for many of their projects (re: google cloud).No. never said that, i mean sometimes python programing sounds me like we're in training mode. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444749/#p444749 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development pauliyobo wrote:turkce_rap wrote:i actually understand what he means... with Python we play children game and act and pretend like we are programing but, in fact we are not. it's mostly libs rather than coding something.Could you please explain your point?If you are meaning that we do not code from scratch, I'd like to wholeheartedly disagree with you.it seems Python community so mutch relies on libraries. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444745/#p444745 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development I'm confused by 53. Python is not a kids language. Just because its used on the raspberry Pi doesn't mean its specificly for kids. Google uses it exclusvely for many of their projects (re: google cloud). URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444712/#p444712 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development turkce_rap wrote:i actually understand what he means... with Python we play children game and act and pretend like we are programing but, in fact we are not. it's mostly libs rather than coding something.Could you please explain your point?If you are meaning that we do not code from scratch, I'd like to wholeheartedly disagree with you. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444709/#p444709 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development @53, I do see his argument up to an extent. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444708/#p444708 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development pauliyobo wrote:I'll just say this.Talking about which language is better clearly shows that you are still a beginner.A developer is damn free to use what he wants to. Python may be slow, but you seriously can not compare an interpreted language with a compiled language. It would be like comparing a car with a bicycle.On top of that languages are made for different reasons and with different architectures.Java and c# share a common architecture which is the object oriented paradigm.Python does not focus on OOP as much as c# does, but this doesn't mean that you can not make OOP applications with it.Only because private properties in a class can be accessed does not mean that python's inheritance does not work.And of course python isn't good to make games suchas GTA since it would be slow as hell. It was not made for this. For that you would purely need speed and performance which can be obtained by compiled languages such as c, c++ and c#.But, for audiogames is different.I ensure you that audiogames in python are not slow at all (if developed correctly). And I also ensure you that a c# audiogame or game could be slow (if not developed correctly). There are soo many factors to the table that you can not come here and say "oh this is better and this sucks so stop using it."Please, use google, I ensure you that is really useful. But search deeply.Sorry if I sounded arrogant, but I tried to explain as much as I could.You're one of the posters who i like to read his posts here a lot but, i don't think the op is a beginner.i actually understand what he means... with Python we play children game and act and pretend like we are programing but, in fact we are not. it's mostly libs rather than coding something.On the other hand i see on some Turkish boards people chalange each other on differant programing languages which sounds like piss fight between supporters of rival football teams but, his arguements are valid. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444704/#p444704 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development Right. Post 49 seemed quite insulting to me. And no, C++ is *not* for everything. Bring in templates,and so on, and you've got an absolute mess that just gets repeatedly piled on with new features because no one wants to fix the language "to maintainbackwards compatability". There is nothing wrong with liking Python, and there is nothing wrong with liking JS. There is also nothing wrong with embedding Python everywhere; if people want to do that than clearly the language is good enough that it deserves such a position. You have absolutely no right to ride in on your high horse and claim its somehow a failure or that its doing something wrong with your very arguments indicate your just looking for attention and don't actually want to contribute anything useful. Your comments about various languages on this forum would not stand in a professional environment, nor would it stand on a site such as stack overflow.While I don't like it when people ask dumb questions like "What's the best [insert anything here]?" I do understand it -- hell, I research those same questions purely to see peoples various opinions on different ways of doing something. But if I were to ask a question like that I'd certainly put in the words "youropinion" somewhere in the question, i.e. "What is your opinionon the best programming language?" Or, even better, "What is your favorite programming language and why?" What really irks me though is when newbies who clearly have never written anything that makes them knowledgable on the subject start making baseless claimsand accusations against a language that they clearly don't understand. Considering that, say, Python is used in practically everything these days, including machine learning, its clearly the right language for the job and has superior advantagesto all other alternatives, hence its use. You can't then make a claim that "it implements OOP incorrectly"; because, if it did, it wouldn't be widely used and there'd be more widespread agreement on that point. But since there's not, the evidence to disprove such a ridiculous claim is pretty much overwhelming. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444702/#p444702 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development Right. Post 49 seemed quite insulting to me. And no, C++ is *not* for everything. Bring in templates,and so on, and you've got an absolute mess that just gets repeatedly piled on with new features because no one wants to fix the language "to maintainbackwards compatability". There is nothing wrong with liking Python, and there is nothing wrong with liking JS. There is also nothing wrong with embedding Python everywhere; if people want to do that than clearly the language is good enough that it deserves such a position. You have absolutely no right to ride on on your high horse and claim its somehow pothetic or doing things wrong when you clearly do not even understand anything about what you write about. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444702/#p444702 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development @50, I was not talking about this post specifically, about it in general. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444629/#p444629 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development @41, In my opinion, C++ is the best for all things. But it's not always profitable, and it's difficult to learn.ogomez92, JS, like Python, want to implement everywhere.Although in my opinion Python is more structured than JS.magurp244, You just love Python. Don't deny it. And I understand you.Personally, I can't work with a programming language with dinamic typing, which is aimed at simplicity so much that when I meet with list generators and others, I lose strength in understanding this.In any case, I'm learning Python for WEB applications, because it's becoming more popular. I think it makes sense to develop things like MUD games with Python.But it makes sense to develop audio games with C#. This is my opinion, this is my position. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444625/#p444625 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development @49, could you kindly explain me what does the post that magurp made have to do with the fact that he loves python? It just doesn't fit in the context. Could you please stop acting like a kid and take responses in a mature way? That, would really be appreciated. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444628/#p444628 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development @41, In my opinion, C++ is the best for all things. But it's not always profitable, and it's difficult to learn.ogomez92, JS, like Python, want to implement everywhere.Although in my opinion Python is more structured than JS.magurp244, You just love Python. Don't deny it. And I understand you.Personally, I can't work with a programming language with static typing, which is aimed at simplicity so much that when I meet with list generators and others, I lose strength in understanding this.In any case, I'm learning Python for WEB applications, because it's becoming more popular. I think it makes sense to develop things like MUD games with Python.But it makes sense to develop audio games with C#. This is my opinion, this is my position. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444625/#p444625 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development Having spent time in other dev communities that are more industry and indie focused, I can say that there are similar behaviors that crop up from time to time. On gamedev.net in the past you'd get a lot of industry or professional programmers, real C++ types, but they were often extremely hostile towards beginners and would repeatedly tell them to stop asking stupid questions or straight "give up" with their ridiculous and overly ambitious projects. It was definitely not a nurturing community for those starting out, and yes they had sticky threads for those who wanted to learn things, but people would still post the same beginner questions and similar things every few days. Part of the reason for this I think has more to do with the fact that in practice people have a tendancy to gravitate towards human interaction within a given social group rather than reading FAQs or looking things up. Think about it, how many questions here are asked on any given day that could just as easily be google'd?Now by comparison Tigsource was a very welcoming indie space, ideas were encouraged and frequently shown off, and people would offer help and resources as needed. Some of the domain knowledge at the time though wasn't quite as deep as you'd find on Gamedev.net however, though it depends. Audiogames.net is more or less the place to go for audiogames, and I think its become a bit more nurturing over the past few years with an increase in domain knowledge and experienced developers. While there may be topics floating around about "which language is best" those are more atypical of beginners not knowing where to start given the wealth of choices available, analysis paralysis and all that. You could add FAQs and stickies, though i'm unsure if it would have the desired effect. The main reasons I tend to recommend Python, and i'm not saying its the perfect language for everyone or a univeral solution to every problem, is because its quite powerful, easy to use, has a ton of documentation to learn from, and has large communities to tap into for help, not to mention that I have over a decade of experience with the language and make a point to make myself available to anyone who has any questions or requires assistance. If people don't like python or find an interest in another language, go for it. Experienced developers will typically learn more than one language, they all have their strengths and learning one makes it easier to learn others, whats most important is what your comfortable with. The greater wealth and diversity of knowledge and experience we can build here, the better. But, and i've said this before, asking or making pointed opinions on which language is "best" over another is a recipe for pointless arguments that accomplish nothing, its not productive. Its also especially counter productive to bash users of a particular language with baseless assertions, which only serves to discourage people and hurt the community. If you want to recommend your preferred language, then by all means, but be prepared to provide an even rational argument based on its merits and back it up with resources and assistance for those who decide to go for it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444612/#p444612 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development I'll just say one thingOH Shit was written in Python.Oh shit is a great game.meowNo, seriously.Python might be slow and a bit hard to get started with, but it's an interesting choice.I used to bash Python a lot because all I had seen were slow and poorly coded games but it is true that in the end its a preference.I myself use _javascript_, very few others do because electron apps aren't very popular amongst audiogamers, but hopefully this will change.In the end its a matter of preference. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444588/#p444588 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development I'll just say one thingOH Shit was written in Python.Oh shit is a great game.meow URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444588/#p444588 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development @45, very true. I've repeatedly told people to stop asking that, yet they keep doing it. Sigh... URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444567/#p444567 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development Man, this is such a ridiculous thread. I'll tell you all what the best language for writing games is.The best language is whatever you write a fun, playable, maintainable game in. Bonus points if you sell it, because then you have a customer base for whom you're presumably obligated to do a good job of maintaining whatever you've sold, though passionate freeware is equivalently as valuable.And that's it. You can architecture astronaut this subject to death, but if you aren't out there writing games then your preference doesn't matter much, and if you *are* then you're too busy for this mess.Wish there was a more intermediate/advanced audio/accessible game development community out there. I guess there needs to be an intro-level community, but this one is so full of silly "which language is best!" threads and similar.And to be clear, I think there are *better* languages for starting out. Lua, Python, C#, etc. are probably better for beginners than are C++ and Rust. But I don't think there's a "best," and the best way to spot an inexperienced developer is to look toward the one suggesting that anything, whether it's C# or _javascript_ or Kubernetes or Rust, is the best technology for any given problem hands-down. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444554/#p444554 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development @43, ROFL man that was awesome! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444512/#p444512 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development Shh guys. no sense in arguing. This is just how Jonikster plans to start his virtual state, of which he will be the leader. One of his guidelines is thatyoumustusethelanguagehetellsyou!Oh and you can't bring up logical arguments with him. If he has nothing on you, he'll ignore them. (CarterTemm and others who received only vague answers if any at all), or he'll insult you. (SamTupy).I mean don't you get it? After constantly flip flopping languages, sticking with one for less time than the popular kid at high school sustains a relationship with their Junior prom date, he finally! Has the answers. He has officially used all of the knowledge you guys have given him to climb above you guys and he never saw it coming! Forget college, forget experimentation, forget programming books when you can join the elite virtual state of ya boy Jojo, and have all. The. Answers!*Wakes up and smells coffee* Oh. That's right. What I really meant was, someone who has been little more than a joke, a nuisance, and someone who asks the dumbest questions over and over is now coming back to prove to us all that he's changed. He gets it now. He doesn't need you to help him decide which key to hit with his ring finger, or what angle to sit in his chair, or how frequently he should have NVDA speak so that it doesn't run out of breath. No, now he is paying you all back for your help by teaching you a thing or two. Obviously he is only here to troll, therefore so am I. that was fun! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444502/#p444502 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development @41, my hole goal is to ensure that his misleading of people stops. If he continues, he could give new developers the wrong idea with his misleading information and they may generate wrong assumptions as a result. That's not what this community needs; it needs more developers and more games. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/96/#p96 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development Why are you arguing with him? It doesn't make any sense.For me, C# is better than Python, for some other people, C# might be a trash language, with no potential and such. The key is how we wxpress these opinion. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/80/#p80 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development OK. Some more misinformation heading our way! Let's stop that right here!First, a map engine does not need to use a game engine at all. A server that performs map processing does not need to interact with the rest of a game's architecture. All it need do is act as an interface between the raw map data and the game engine.Considering that I helped write a game engine in Python, with no C/C++ at all, and then used Python's DLL loading functions to call out to other DLLs for sound, a window and such, and that was quite fast, I'd say that owned you right there. I even drew primitive graphics (text mainly) too, and that took up hardly any time at all. Why? Because anyone who needs to do extremely heavy graphics-intensive operations would do the intelligent thing and go buy either a GPU or EGPU to do the graphics processing so their processor didn't need to do it all. Why the hell do you think we have this thing known as a graphics processing unit, eh? What the hell is it used for other than to, oh, I dunno, process graphics, mine cryptocurrency, and utilize machine learning? And why do you think its used for that? Its because you can fit a shit ton of cores in a GPU that you can't in a processor package. You can fit 15000 CUDA cores in a GPU with only a duo-core processor running at 3.2 GHz. And it would work fine because the OS would be smart enough to offload the graphics work to the GPU, and that intelligence comes from good ol drivers.So, if you've got, say, a GTX1080 or RTX2080, and a processor running at 3.6 GHz, you can do map processing extremely quickly. The server does not, and should not, ever, be performing graphics operations; leave that up to the clients that connect to it. (Did you know that some servers don't have graphics cards or processorscapable of handling graphics because they don't need to do that? Did you know that some people don't use a monitor and keyboard to use their raspberry Pi's but instead SSH ino them because diect keyboard access isn't usually ever needed?) URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444255/#p444255 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development this guy is good at creating some, overheated discussions,check all of his topics and see what i mean lol URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444184/#p444184 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development sorry for double post. If you want to copy paste do thisfrom mapjson import Mapm = mapjson.Map()for i in range(10): m.add_tile(0, i, 0, i, 0, i, "metal")at this point try retrieving tiles with m.get_tile_obj() for example. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444176/#p444176 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development OK, jonikster. So to prove your point about the map you could to the follow.In my github profile there's a library called mapjsonhereWould you kindly make a big map and then prove your point?You don't need to generate json out of it. Just make a plain class, fill it with tiles, and then tell me how slow it is. Should you enconter any problems feel free to report them here, or I could try the test my self. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444173/#p444173 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development OK, jonikster. So to prove your point about the map you could to the follow.In my github profile there's a library called mapjsonhereWould you kindly make a big map and then prove your point?You don't need to generate json out of it. Just make a plain class, fill it with tiles, and then tell me how slow it is. Should you enconter any problems feel free to report them here, or I oculd try the test my self. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444173/#p444173 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development the thing is, Python has a way to interface plugins written in other languages (C, C++, rust etc) using the native os dynamic library loading mechanism.also, windows, which is an operating system is not written entirely in C++. (it has assembly code as well, at least for it's bootloader).so, don't spread misinformation. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444168/#p444168 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development I think we should finish this holywar.In the end, for beginners, I want to remind one thing that I talked about earlier.I have a familiar system administrator. In one book he read a method of choosing from two or more options.Parable about the two-handed gangsterThe gangster runs off and shoots himself. He found 2 pistols, but doesn't know which of them is less likely to misfire.First thought: Make 10 shots from one and 10 from another pistols and compare. There mathematically understands further that it's wrong.Correct tactics: Shoot from the first pistol, when this pistol misfires, go to the second. When the second misfires, go to the first. And so constantly.Hope this helps you. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444164/#p444164 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development Why don't you want to see the point in this. World of tanks server is using stackless python, and the server, being a central controler, should be the best performant piece in an an online multiplayer game. Here we go about networking. But let me go a bit in detail about map processing and stuff. First of all, A map in an audio game, is nothing but probably strings, or dictionaries(depending on how the game developers want to code the map), and some objects that are classes. A map in an audio game is completely free of any graphics, therefore there will be no performance issues with the map as well. The only thing that is about such big maps, is the loading time and gta v with its so much long loading time says what it should. Nevertheless, I have to point out that the long loading time in gta v is not all due to its map loading. It'd be much longer if it would load the hoal map at startup, and god knows what would happen to the RAM memory of the user. In mainstream games, a map isn't loaded completely at startup. it loads the sections of the map that the player is going through, then unloads them. Otherwise such a huge map for gta V would be an instant kill for the user's memory. With that out of the way, With subtracting graphics from an audio game similar to gta, If the developer knows what they're doing and load the map like how they do it in a mainstream game, nothing will happen and the loading time at startup will be much, much faster than GTA V.Your post is full of contradictions. You're saying You can't develop apps for android, then you're saying no, You can, but that's not enough. What does that mean? That's not enough? It's not food to be enough. It's android development with a programming language and it is possible to do that in python. Done.Ok. May I know if possible, who were those experienced developers you are talking about? Experienced developers who use python that I know, in our community are carter, paul, sam, tiler spivy, liam, mason, hrvoje katik, Also some others that I missed or I don't know much about.If you have talked about this to a video game developer, and heard such a responce that you can't code open world games in python, First it's normal because they develop "video games" not "audio games". Second, due to your idea about python and so like to bashing it, I can guess already that you haven't said much about how little resources are for an audio game compared to a video game. Programming a fine and smove audio game, in any programming language, needs a good developer too, who knows what they're doing. In fact you are saying yourself, that without optimization a huge map like gta v's can't be there, and that is right and I'm saying the same thing. Except that you're just trying to curse at python, with a good atetude. I'm not saying "use python" I'm calmly saying "I liked python because x and y and done. You can use it too". i'm not bashing other languages to put python on the top of the tower. Hope What I said was clear enough. Because that's how I can explane something, with my current knowledge of English., no moreEdit: Search this on google and see the result:What programming language is WoT written in?It didn't say python for its server and C++ for other parts. It just said python URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444154/#p444154 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development Why don't you want to see the point in this. World of tanks server is using stackless python, and the server, being a central controler, should be the best performant piece in an an online multiplayer game. Here we go about networking. But let me go a bit in detail about map processing and stuff. First of all, A map in an audio game, is nothing but probably strings, or dictionaries(depending on how the game developers want to code the map), and some objects that are classes. A map in an audio game is completely free of any graphics, therefore there will be no performance issues with the map as well. The only thing that is about such big maps, is the loading time and gta v with its so much long loading time says what it should. Nevertheless, I have to point out that the long loading time in gta v is not all due to its map loading. It'd be much longer if it would load the hoal map at startup, and god knows what would happen to the RAM memory of the user. In mainstream games, a map isn't loaded completely at startup. it loads the sections of the map that the player is going through, then unloads them. Otherwise such a huge map for gta V would be an instant kill for the user's memory. With that out of the way, With subtracting graphics from an audio game similar to gta, If the developer knows what they're doing and load the map like how they do it in a mainstream game, nothing will happen and the loading time at startup will be much, much faster than GTA V.Your post is full of contradictions. You're saying You can't develop apps for android, then you're saying no, You can, but that's not enough. What does that mean? That's not enough? It's not food to be enough. It's android development with a programming language and it is possible to do that in python. Done.Ok. May I know if possible, who were those experienced developers you are talking about? Experienced developers who use python that I know, in our community are carter, paul, sam, tiler spivy, liam, mason, hrvoje katik, Also some others that I missed or I don't know much about.If you have talked about this to a video game developer, and heard such a responce that you can't code open world games in python, First it's normal because they develop "video games" not "audio games". Second, due to your idea about python and so like to bashing it, I can guess already that you haven't said much about how little resources are for an audio game compared to a video game. Programming a fine and smove audio game, in any programming language, needs a good developer too, who knows what they're doing. In fact you are saying yourself, that without optimization a huge map like gta v's can't be there, and that is right and I'm saying the same thing. Except that you're just trying to curse at python, with a good atetude. I'm not saying "use python" I'm calmly saying "I liked python because x and y and done. You can use it too". i'm not bashing other languages to put python on the top of the tower. Hope What I said was clear enough. Because that's how I can explane something, with my current knowledge of English., no more URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444154/#p444154 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development Why don't you want to see the point in this. World of tanks server is using stackless python, and the server, being a central controler, should be the best performant piece in an an online multiplayer game. Here we go about networking. But let me go a bit in detail about map processing and stuff. First of all, A map in an audio game, is nothing but probably strings, or dictionaries(depending on how the game developers want to code the map), and some objects that are classes. A map in an audio game is completely free of any graphics, therefore there will be no performance issues with the map as well. The only thing that is about such big maps, is the loading time and gta v with its so much long loading time says what it should. Nevertheless, I have to point out that the long loading time in gta v is not all due to its map loading. It'd be much longer if it would load the hoal map at startup, and god knows what would happen to the RAM memory of the user. In mainstream games, a map isn't loaded completely at startup. it loads the sections of the map that the player is going through, then unloads them. Otherwise such a huge map for gta V would be an instant kill for the user's memory. With that out of the way, With subtracting graphics from an audio game similar to gta, If the developer knows what they're doing and load the map like how they do it in a mainstream game, nothing will happen and the loading time at startup will be much, much faster than GTA V.Your post is full of contradictions. You're saying You can't develop apps for android, then you're saying no, You can, but that's not enough. What does that mean? That's not enough? It's not food to be enough. It's android development with a programming language and it is possible to do that in python. Done.Ok. May I know if possible, who were those experienced developers you are talking about? Experienced developers who use python that I know, in our community are carter, paul, sam, tiler spivy, liam, mason, hrvoje katik, Also some others that I missed or I don't know much about.If you have talked about this to a video game developer, and heard such a responce that you can't code open world games in python, First it's normal because they develop "video games" not "audio games". Second, due to your idea about python and so like to bashing it, I can guess already that you haven't said much about how little resources are for an audio game compared to a video game. Programming a fine and smove audio game, in any programming language, needs a good developer too, who knows what they're doing. In fact you are saying yourself, that without optimization a huge map like gta v's can't be there, and that is right and I'm saying the same thing. Except that you're just trying to curse at python, with a good atetude. I'm not saying "use python" I'm calmly saying "I liked python because x and y and done. You can use it too". i'm not bashing other languages to put python on the top of the tower. Hope What I said was clear enough. Because that's the best I can explane something, with my current knowledge of English. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444154/#p444154 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development Why don't you want to see the point in this. World of tanks server is using stackless python, and the server, being a central controler, should be the best performant piece in an an online multiplayer game. Here we go about networking. But let me go a bit in detail about map processing and stuff. First of all, A map in an audio game, is nothing but probably strings, or dictionaries(depending on how the game developers want to code the map), and some objects that are classes. A map in an audio game is completely free of any graphics, therefore there will be no performance issues with the map as well. The only thing that is about such big maps, is the loading time and gta v with its so much long loading time says what it should. Nevertheless, I have to point out that the long loading time in gta v is not all due to its map loading. It'd be much longer if it would load the hoal map at startup, and god knows what would happen to the RAM memory of the user. In mainstream games, a map isn't loaded completely at startup. it loads the sections of the map that the player is going through, then unloads them. Otherwise such a huge map for gta V would be an instant kill for the user's memory. With that out of the way, With subtracting graphics from an audio game similar to gta, If the developer knows what they're doing and load the map like how they do it in a mainstream game, nothing will happen and the loading time at startup will be much, much faster than GTA V.Your post is full of contradictions. You're saying You can't develop apps for android, then you're saying no, You can, but that's not enough. What does that mean? That's not enough? It's not food to be enough. It's android development with a programming language and it is possible to do that in python. Done.Ok. May I know if possible, who were those experienced developers you are talking about? Experienced developers who use python that I know, in our community are carter, paul, sam, tiler spivy, liam, mason, hrvoje katik, Also some others that I missed or I don't know much about.If you have talked about this to a video game developer, and heard such a responce that you can't code open world games in python, First it's normal because they develop "video games" not "audio games". Second, due to your idea about python and so like to bashing it, I can guess already that you haven't said much about how little resources are for an audio game compared to a video game. Programming a fine and smove audio game, in any programming language, needs a good developer too, who knows what they're doing. In fact you are saying yourself, that without optimization a huge map like gta v's can't be there, and that is right and I'm saying the same thing. Except that you're just trying to curse at python, with a good atetude. Hope What I said was clear enough. Because that's the best I can explane something, with my current knowledge of English. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444154/#p444154 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development kianoosh wrote:Please. Please! Someone tell him what is the difference between an audio game and a video game. You can build up a perfect and fine-working audio game, without performance issues with python, with no dout.I've talked to experienced developers about this.As a result, we came to the conclusion that we can create audio games with Python. But in the event that I plan big maps, open world, performance is important. They told me that in case I want to use Python, in the mechanics of my game I need to use C++.kianoosh wrote:In my opinion, If even an audio game that has everything a version of gta has, won't make a problem on python. Python is probably slower at graphical operations but first it's not as slow as jonikster says, second we're talking about audio games so it's out. Done.Offline game? Maybe so. But I doubt Python will be able to work with maps of the same size as in GTA without optimization.Create an online game like GTA, it is impossible in Python without optimization.kianoosh wrote:Who told you There's no android development on python? I better say, have you ever put the effert to look and search through git hub and google to possibly find python-for-android, or other stuff that might be there except python-for-android? I'm really amazedKianoosh, are you sure you read my post carefully?jonikster wrote:No, you can, but with Python, this is not enough.kianoosh wrote:Hay wait wait I forgot about this. The title of this post is about audio game development. May I know why "grand theft auto" mentioned here, Why did video games came under my cursor? It's how something can be illogical.Because I take these games as examples.If you remove graphics, physics from these games, you still need performance.Yes, 80% of performance in video games is used by graphics. But map processing is also an important thing.kianoosh wrote:Oh wait wait I again forgot about something. Go check out world of tanks. It's enough for someone who's really after picking up a good programming language for audio game development, even though world of tanks is not an audio game but it is listed in the most played games so Probably when python does its job that well for world of tanks, will do the same even better on our audio gamesYou repeat the mistake of many developers.***Use Python! Youtube uses Python. Ok. world of tanks uses Python.***But don't forget that world of tanks doesn't use only Python. The game engine uses C++. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444150/#p444150 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development @joniksterTwo wrongs do not make a right.You are correct that some of the commonly cited arguments for using Python are flawed simplifications by unqualified people just paroting others.But your stating of opinions as facts, your obvious agenda and bias, and your purposeful ignorance when shown hard evidence makes you just as bad if not worse.You are never going to convince anyone to use C# by continuing with this current attitude, and I am quite certain that nearly everyone on this forum would rather not have you here. Not because you are right and we refuse to accept your reasoning, but because of the way you have chosen to do it.So if you really want to help your cause and convince people that C# is better than python for audio gaming, I suggest you drop it, wait a bit, come back preferably under another username, make an audio game of your own, and try again with a totally different approach, because we are all incredibly tired of dealing with you. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444115/#p444115 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development @joniksterTwo wrongs do not make a right.You are correct that some of the commonly cited arguments for using Python are flawed simplifications by unqualified people just paroting others.But your stating of opinions as facts, your obvious agenda and bias, and your purposeful ignorance when shown hard evidence makes you just as bad if not worse.You are never going to convince anyone to use C# by continuing with this current attitude, and I am quite certain that nearly everyone on this forum would rather not have you here. Not because you are right and we refuse to accept your reasoning, but because of the way you do it.So if you really want to help your cause and convince people that C# is better than python for audio gaming, I suggest you drop it, wait a bit, come back preferably under another username, make an audio game of your own, and try again with a totally different approach, because we are all incredibly tired of dealing with you. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444115/#p444115 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development @26, 27, 31, +1 to yall guys. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444144/#p444144 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development Please note before reading. I didn't read all posts here, and just thought I'd better say my own opinion first.Ok. I'm really done with this guy. For the god's sake, If you are someone whose reading through this post, don't judge programming languages based on jonikster's opinion, At least as long as he stays far from being a developer who may comment like that on programming languages.Please. Please! Someone tell him what is the difference between an audio game and a video game. You can build up a perfect and fine-working audio game, without performance issues with python, with no dout. Yeah I'm one of those who recommend python to the developers for audio game development, and I have developed with it so I'm not throwing random words around. I developed a multiplayer game with it, I developed an offline game with it, which some of our members have already seen both of them, and osme of them just have seen the offline one. People who jonikster refers to by "those who haven't developed an audio game and suggest python for audio game development" are usually talented programmers such as carter temm, paul iyobo, Etc Etc. Jonikster clrealy doesn't no things and just wants to say something. I'm being extremely harsh now because I'm sick of seeing posts titled as a help to the beginners and such false information is in them. This is very serious. We don't have much audio game developers out there, and a false information is enough to either make someone for instance who loves python and have decided to develop audio games with it, just escape from python and give up on development because they're not fine with c-like sintax languages, Or someone believe what he says, and spred this all over the community and it's enough to just mess the audio game development up.I'm not against C#, nor against java. In fact, I learned C# before I get better at python, But I found python easier to develop audio games with, while it provides a "high performance" to my games, Both offline and online ones. In my opinion, If even an audio game that has everything a version of gta has, won't make a problem on python. Python is probably slower at graphical operations but first it's not as slow as jonikster says, second we're talking about audio games so it's out. Done.Who told you There's no android development on python? I better say, have you ever put the effert to look and search through git hub and google to possibly find python-for-android, or other stuff that might be there except python-for-android? I'm really amazedHay wait wait I forgot about this. The title of this post is about audio game development. May I know why "grand theft auto" mentioned here, Why did video games came under my cursor? It's how something can be illogical.Last but not least, I'm again not against C# at all. I nearly have the same opinions about audio game development with C#, But I found python more to my liking for audio game development at present. But when false information gets spredded around, That's where I get harsh and I'm not greatful of it because i'm not a harsh person or anything like that. But when it happens for the second time, yeah the second time, Expect me to be a bit harsh to protect at least our upcoming developers. In jonikster first post of helpihng beginners(although in his own opinion), People, with evidences, proved that a lot of things he stayed were wrong, Specially about python and its performance. And I see it so weird that he repeated the same staitments here again.I might catch a warning or a caution for this post, for the first time ever since I joined audio games forum, But I think I really have to point out these stuffSorry If I was too harsh. I don't have anything personal with jonikster and I know I went too harsh on him, Because it is his second time that he's bashing a programming language like that. besides Bashing, He's spredding false information around, which can impact our own gaming community later so I see it deserves some strong wordsOh wait wait I again forgot about something. Go check out world of tanks. It's enough for someone who's really after picking up a good programming language for audio game development, even though world of tanks is not an audio game but it is listed in the most played games so Probably when python does its job that well for world of tanks, will do the same even better on our audio games URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444138/#p444138 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development Ok. I'm really done with this guy. For the god's sake, If you are someone whose reading through this post, don't judge programming languages based on jonikster's opinion, At least as long as he stays far from being a developer who may comment like that on programming languages.Please. Please! Someone tell him what is the difference between an audio game and a video game. You can build up a perfect and fine-working audio game, without performance issues with python, with no dout. Yeah I'm one of those who recommend python to the developers for audio game development, and I have developed with it so I'm not throwing random words around. I developed a multiplayer game with it, I developed an offline game with it, which some of our members have already seen both of them, and osme of them just have seen the offline one. People who jonikster refers to by "those who haven't developed an audio game and suggest python for audio game development" are usually talented programmers such as carter temm, paul iyobo, Etc Etc. Jonikster clrealy doesn't no things and just wants to say something. I'm being extremely harsh now because I'm sick of seeing posts titled as a help to the beginners and such false information is in them. This is very serious. We don't have much audio game developers out there, and a false information is enough to either make someone for instance who loves python and have decided to develop audio games with it, just escape from python and give up on development because they're not fine with c-like sintax languages, Or someone believe what he says, and spred this all over the community and it's enough to just mess the audio game development up.I'm not against C#, nor against java. In fact, I learned C# before I get better at python, But I found python easier to develop audio games with, while it provides a "high performance" to my games, Both offline and online ones. In my opinion, If even an audio game that has everything a version of gta has, won't make a problem on python. Python is probably slower at graphical operations but first it's not as slow as jonikster says, second we're talking about audio games so it's out. Done.Who told you There's no android development on python? I better say, have you ever put the effert to look and search through git hub and google to possibly find python-for-android, or other stuff that might be there except python-for-android? I'm really amazedHay wait wait I forgot about this. The title of this post is about audio game development. May I know why "grand theft auto" mentioned here, Why did video games came under my cursor? It's how something can be illogical.Last but not least, I'm again not against C# at all. I nearly have the same opinions about audio game development with C#, But I found python more to my liking for audio game development at present. But when false information gets spredded around, That's where I get harsh and I'm not greatful of it because i'm not a harsh person or anything like that. But when it happens for the second time, yeah the second time, Expect me to be a bit harsh to protect at least our upcoming developers. In jonikster first post of helpihng beginners(although in his own opinion), People, with evidences, proved that a lot of things he stayed were wrong, Specially about python and its performance. And I see it so weird that he repeated the same staitments here again.I might catch a warning or a caution for this post, for the first time ever since I joined audio games forum, But I think I really have to point out these stuffSorry If I was too harsh. I don't have anything personal with jonikster and I know I went too harsh on him, Because it is his second time that he's bashing a programming language like that. besides Bashing, He's spredding false information around, which can impact our own gaming community later so I see it deserves some strong wordsOh wait wait I again forgot about something. Go check out world of tanks. It's enough for someone who's really after picking up a good programming language for audio game development, even though world of tanks is not an audio game but it is listed in the most played games so Probably when python does its job that well for world of tanks, will do the same even better on our audio games URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444138/#p444138 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development Ok. I'm really done with this guy. For the god's sake, If you are someone whose reading through this post, don't judge programming languages based on jonikster's opinion, At least as long as he stays far from being a developer who may comment like that on programming languages.Please. Please! Someone tell him what is the difference between an audio game and a video game. You can build up a perfect and fine-working audio game, without performance issues with python, with no dout. Yeah I'm one of those who recommend python to the developers for audio game development, and I have developed with it so I'm not throwing random words around. I developed a multiplayer game with it, I developed an offline game with it, which some of our members have already seen both of them, and osme of them just have seen the offline one. People who jonikster refers to by "those who haven't developed an audio game and suggest python for audio game development" are usually talented programmers such as carter temm, paul iyobo, Etc Etc. Jonikster clrealy doesn't no things and just wants to say something. I'm being extremely harsh now because I'm sick of seeing posts titled as a help to the beginners and such false information is in them. This is very serious. We don't have much audio game developers out there, and a false information is enough to either make someone for instance who loves python and have decided to develop audio games with it, just escape from python and give up on development because they're not fine with c-like sintax languages, Or someone believe what he says, and spred this all over the community and it's enough to just mess the audio game development up.I'm not against C#, nor against java. In fact, I learned C# before I get better at python, But I found python easier to develop audio games with, while it provides a "high performance" to my games, Both offline and online ones. In my opinion, If even an audio game that has everything a version of gta has, won't make a problem on python. Python is probably slower at graphical operations but first it's not as slow as jonikster says, second we're talking about audio games so it's out. Done.Who told you There's no android development on python? I better say, have you ever put the effert to look and search through git hub and google to possibly find python-for-android, or other stuff that might be there except python-for-android? I'm really amazedHay wait wait I forgot about this. The title of this post is about audio game development. May I know why "grand theft auto" mentioned here, Why did video games came under my cursor? It's how something can be illogical.Last but not least, I'm again not against C# at all. I nearly have the same opinions about audio game development with C#, But I found python more to my liking for audio game development at present. But when false information gets spredded around, That's where I get harsh and I'm not greatful of it because i'm not a harsh person or anything like that. But when it happens for the second time, yeah the second time, Expect me to be a bit harsh to protect at least our upcoming developers. In jonikster first post of helpihng beginners(although in his own opinion), People, with evidences, proved that a lot of things he stayed were wrong, Specially about python and its performance. And I see it so weird that he repeated the same staitments here again.I might catch a warning or a caution for this post, for the first time ever since I joined audio games forum, But I think I really have to point out these stuffSorry If I was too harsh. I don't have anything personal with jonikster and I know I went too harsh on him, Because it is his second time that he's bashing a programming language like that. besides Bashing, He's spredding false information around, which can impact our own gaming community later so I see it deserves some strong words URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444138/#p444138 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development @29, i knew what were those instructions.I also wrote an operating system for just my educational purposes and thats a great challenge specially when you need to use inline assembly (things like black magic etc for returning from functions etc). URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444137/#p444137 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development Oh! Wow! Here we go again!I won't even bother wasting my time debunking your claims in post 1 because I already have. As for your claim on how IO is slow... you say "IO". While I would normally stop and say that I know your talking about networking, let's go a bit more general here. First, do you know what this bit of assembly does?mov eax, FFh mov ebx, 60h outb ebx, eaxYou probably don't, so I'll tell you. Hell, I don't think anyone does in this topic. But 'll tell you:The first instruction moves 0xFF (255) into the EAX register. The second moves 0x60 into the EBX register. The third one is where the input/output comes in: we use the "outb" CPU instruction to write a byte (0xFF) to the keyboard (port 0x60). We don't read its response, but that wouldn't be overly difficult to do.Do you know how long this takes? If your keyboard is embedded into the computer and directly attached, and the RTC is configured at its fastest tick speed without roling over (122 Us), anywhere between 1 tick (122 Us) to 5-6 ticks (610-732 Us). That's assuming that we're timing this with the real time clock though, which is usually (but not always) the case. And that's in microseconds. That's a millionth of a second. Talk about fast IO!Of course, the CPU will be faster (the move instructions probably take about 0.001 Us), but my point is to demonstrate the "output" in IO. The reason I know how long this takes (in QEMU at least) is because I'm building an OS kernel that has a fully functioning asynchronous keyboard driver (bar a few synchronous spots, which need to be synchronous to work properly). The keyboard driver relies fully on interrupts for communication, and uses the programmable interrupt controller (PIC) timer to send data to the keyboard. When the keyboard replies, a hardware interrupt is fired, which is a way of saying "Hey, something's happened, go check!" I won't go into depth -- but I am working on preparing the code for posting on github.Network IO is obviously going to take much, much longer than a few hundred Us. So is disk IO. But my overall point was that IO comes in many different forms, many of which are far faster than you think.When I post it, I'll probably announce it on here if people who know Rust would like to help (as its written in Rust). If you know so much knowledge, why not put you to the ultimate test -- help me write my ATA/SATA driver -- which will be haard. I think. Or, even better, you can help me get plug-n-play support in! Now that'll be a challenge for ya!I won't even bother to address your other points as others have already done so. Please, stop posting, go learn how to f**king code, then come back and start discussing things like this. If you actually knew how to code you'd know better than to ask or discuss topics like this -- its just as bad as asking "What's better, tabs or spaces?"Edit: for those who are curious, I don't know how far I'll take the kernel. I certainly won't leave it where its at right now though -- but it can already do some things, and its only a week old! I might get into userland and stop there. I dunno though, but either way my curiosity about this shit is peeked and ready to learn all it can! OS development is fun! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444120/#p444120 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development Oh! Wow! Here we go again!I won't even bother wasting my time debunking your claims in post 1 because I already have. As for your claim on how IO is slow... you say "IO". While I would normally stop and say that I know your talking about networking, let's go a bit more general here. First, do you know what this bit of assembly does?mov eax, FFh mov ebx, 60h outb ebx, eaxYou probably don't, so I'll tell you. Hell, I don't think anyone does in this topic. But 'll tell you:The first instruction moves 0xFF (255) into the EAX register. The second moves 0x60 into the EBX register. The third one is where the input/output comes in: we use the "outb" CPU instruction to write a byte (0xFF) to the keyboard (port 0x60). We don't read its response, but that wouldn't be overly difficult to do.Do you know how long this takes? If your keyboard is embedded into the computer and directly attached, and the RTC is configured at its fastest tick speed without roling over (122 Us), anywhere between 1 tick (122 Us) to 5-6 ticks (610-732 Us). That's assuming that we're timing this with the real time clock though, which is usually (but not always) the case. And that's in microseconds. That's a millionth of a second. Talk about fast IO!Of course, the CPU will be faster (the move instructions probably take about 0.001 Us), but my point is to demonstrate the "output" in IO. The reason I know how long this takes (in QEMU at least) is because I'm building an OS kernel that has a fully functioning asynchronous keyboard driver (bar a few synchronous spots, which need to be synchronous to work properly). The keyboard driver relies fully on interrupts for communication, and uses the programmable interrupt controller (PIC) timer to send data to the keyboard. When the keyboard replies, a hardware interrupt is fired, which is a way of saying "Hey, something's happened, go check!" I won't go into depth -- but I am working on preparing the code for posting on github.Network IO is obviously going to take much, much longer than a few hundred Us. So is disk IO. But my overall point was that IO comes in many different forms, many of which are far faster than you think.When I post it, I'll probably announce it on here if people who know Rust would like to help (as its written in Rust). If you know so much knowledge, why not put you to the ultimate test -- help me write my ATA/SATA driver -- which will be haard. I think. Or, even better, you can help me get plug-n-play support in! Now that'll be a challenge for ya!I won't even bother to address your other points as others have already done so. Please, stop posting, go learn how to f**king code, then come back and start discussing things like this. If you actually knew how to code you'd know better than to ask or discuss topics like this -- its just asbad as asking "What's better, tabs or spaces?" URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444120/#p444120 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development I 1000 percent agree with the previous poster. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444117/#p444117 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development @joniksterTwo wrongs do not make a right.You are correct that some of the commonly used arguments for using Python are flawed simplifications by unqualified people just paroting others.But your stating of opinions as facts, your obvious agenda and bias, and your purposeful ignorance when shown hard evidence makes you just as bad if not worse.You are never going to convince anyone to use C# by continuing with this current attitude, and I am quite certain that nearly everyone on this forum would rather not have you here. Not because you are right and we refuse to accept your reasoning, but because of the way you do it.So if you really want to help your cause and convince people that C# is better than python for audio gaming, I suggest you drop it, wait a bit, come back preferably under another username, make an audio game of your own, and try again with a totally different approach, because we are all incredibly tired of dealing with you. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444115/#p444115 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
I really do wish I had the time to write up a list of concise reasons as to why your post here serves absolutely no purpose other than to guide beginners down the terribly destructive path you've found yourself walking.Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on how you look at it, I don't. Nor do I have the wherewithal or determination to invalidate everything you just spewed. No point in letting my time go to giving advice that slides in one ear and out the other, yet again and again and again. Ethin or visualstudio or someone else might have the patience to show you exactly where you went wrong for the 28th time, good on them or anyone else, but just so happens I don't. Which is probably why I don't do well teaching those who refuse to at least listen to advice voluntarily handed out by those more qualified.Honestly man I think it would be a marvelous idea for you to stop, right now. Stop in your tracks and consider just what you're doing. Stop trying to teach others how to code when it looks as if you've barely mastered the basics yourself. You might think you're doing a good thing, but if responses around here are any indication this is sadly not the case.Before you fly off the handle on the pretense that I don't know what I'm talking about because you've spent the last couple years working your ass off successfully making x and y and z in python and c++ and java and hell even x86 assembly, I want you to try taking a look at yourself through another, possibly unbiased lens.You started out asking us to recommend languages, libraries, frameworks, resources and just about everything else. I mean that's fine. Annoying sort of, google does exist for a reason, but fine. I guess that's what we're here for.then we go onto:while(true)
{
The very next day you come back around asking the same sorts of questions. Most specifically what language should I choose? Oh what oh what should I do? Again, people come around to restate experience you should have just listened to the first time.
}Still with me here? Good good.Months later, you decide to write up some paragraphs containing a bunch of invalid claims that make little programatic sense. Point your browser over here if you'd like to see this same ol thing from the same ol guy once again.Any programmer with the experience you claim to have should be able to shoot said claims about python out of the sky any day of the week.Ethin and others actually take the time to do this. Not only are you unable to disprove 90% of his superior knowledge, you don't even try tackling the bulk of your numerous inconsistencies. In fact, here they are yet again. Just prettified with different words and dickishly arrogant sprinkling which I refuse to point out for reasons which should be obvious to everyone. Same shit, different day.Oh yeah. The way you responded to Samtupy in post 11 is absolutely pathetic and I'd like you to take one good hard look at yourself before pulling any of these cards.jonikster wrote:Sam_Tupy, Guy. First, learn to act independently. Learn to independently calculate formulas for the RotationPack, etc., and not use the tips of teachers.Says the guy who finds it acceptable to pester devs day in and day out about the same sorts of things. Says the guy who took two years begging us to make your lifestyle and dev decisions.jonikster wrote:You have been developing Redspot in Python for a year or more.Uhh, nah. Very few people have inside info about the future of redspot development. Sam and myself are both in different summer independence programs right now. We plan to make it happen in the future... At some point. The both of us have many cool ideas and would love to see them through. Just not this second for a multitude of reasons. Ever hear of the great toy robbery? Oh shit? How about the yet to be released, but demoed, scramble or constant motion?I could always turn this around on you. As the old proverb says, "those who live in glass houses should not throw stones." You've created next to nothing for the community to see or utilize as far as code.
URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444111/#p444111
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Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development @24.If that's the case please, please could you tell us how are his actual video lessons? this is genuinely making me curious. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444100/#p444100 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development @jonikster, who do you think you are? I have not seen anything but words from you, pointless, bickering, and almost always unhelpful comments that waste people's time. You have posted topics of this nature before and were proved wrong again and again. Stop. Release a good game and then talk. Thank you.Also, seriously? Insulting somebody's code they wrote 4 years ago? Yeah no, that just caused me to lose any respect in relation to you. Did you write excellent and efficient code when you started to write applications? Oh wait, I don't even know that you can code because again, I have seen nothing from you.And yes, I do speak Russian, so if you actually have to show something do so, please, language barrier is not an issue here. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444096/#p444096 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development jonikster wrote:visualstudio, You have not said anything new here.the fact is, all of the socket layers use the underlying os functions. no matter if python calls them or c#. but the question is, why python should be slower in terms of sockets than c#? what are your benchmarks? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444081/#p444081 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development visualstudio, You have not said anything new here. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444079/#p444079 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development jonikster wrote:visualstudio wrote:the cost of network depends on many factors such as connection, distance with the server, etc.input/output will always be orders of magnitude slower than executing code. Even if it is writing one byte to a local socket versus a complex algorithm.You know that it is not related to python and it's speed. and as you are saying, reading and/or writing to files and pipes etc should be slow, because they are input/output. while they are not.as i mentioned, network programming is dependent on many factors such as protocol, connection speed, (upload and/or download), traphic, and so on. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444076/#p444076 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development ancient anger I guess.Or maybe just jealousity. heh who knows. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444073/#p444073 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development visualstudio, read 14 URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444072/#p444072 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development @16, I don't know why you don't want to answer my questions and clarifications, and you just want to insult Sam. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444071/#p444071 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development @17, I don't know why he doesn't want to answer my questions and clarifications, and he just wants to insult sam. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444071/#p444071 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development Hey. At least Sam ya know. Actually released something. Just saying. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444070/#p444070 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development Sam_Tupy, I'm glad if at this time you really think so.What is happening here, holywar, I'd say so. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444068/#p444068 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development @11, it doesn't matter how he calculate stuff, because it is not related to you at all.someone should teach the formula for rotation stuff. noone knows everything when they are child!.@12, about being professional: you are wrong as well. because they are many people around which python is their first language, but they work in data science. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444067/#p444067 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development visualstudio wrote:the cost of network depends on many factors such as connection, distance with the server, etc.input/output will always be orders of magnitude slower than executing code. Even if it is writing one byte to a local socket versus a complex algorithm. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444066/#p444066 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development Lol so I probably won't post after this in this topic so as to not start an argument, but I will still defend myself. This is all you can come up with? When I tell you your wrong all you can think to do is mention something I wrote in 6th grade? Lol bro. I don't think we have to worry about this topic being an influence anymore #TrueColors or something lol. Think what you wish, but just FYI I didn't get a tip from anyone telling me to post my last post, or this one. Also, isn't #11 somewhat contradictory? You tell everyone to use C# instead of python and then tell me that I shouldn't take tips. Lol whatever I'm just amused at this point. The rotation pack thing was written many many years ago when I was trying to figure out just enough to piece something together that would at least somewhat work, and then I released it because I was just trying to help others. Actually it was pretty good for my age at the time. Anyway I'll go now, if you can't stick to your topic but instead need to jump to attack others when someone mentions something wrong with your post rather than fixing the problem or even continuing to discuss it, it's clearly not worth talking to you about it. As mentioned above, python looks simple, but because of it's dynamic typing it's really not. People don't just use python because it's simple. There are many other reasons to use python, and to use C#. Anyway I'm pretty much out of time, I eagerly await your next post where you attack some other thing I've done 4 years ago because you can't defend your own points. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444064/#p444064 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development I'm sorry for another post, but I'd like to tell one more thing.Python is simple. Only because of this, many use.So this thing:You need to be a professional, really professional in Python to write simple and efficient code using this. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444061/#p444061 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development Sam_Tupy, Guy. First, learn to act independently. Learn to independently calculate formulas for the RotationPack, etc., and not use the tips of teachers.You have been developing Redspot in Python for a year or more. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444059/#p444059 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development So as others have pointed out, this is... majorly flawed to say the least. I've seen several audio games that people really like that were coded in python. For example, great toy robbery, Oh Shit, etc. And others to come soon. Python also has good code protection if you use cython to convert your code to c first, which also makes it run much faster because that makes it semi compiled. And lets not forget about all those extensions written in C. As for most of python's stdlib, a lot of the core stuff is builtin. Most of the things you mentioned here you have done so with nothing to base your claims on. Your more or less claiming C# is better and tasking people to please believe you. Howabout this. They both work, they both have ups and downs, and they both can be used to develop audiogames. If you can personally get more done in C# than you can with python, more power to you and I wish you luck. But that doesn't mean you should try convincing others it is better because of what you personally prefer. There is no perfect programming language. You may personally be much more comfortable with C#, but I promise you there is someone in the world who can make a better audiogame in python than you could make in C#. And if you know what your doing and can code, I can also promise that there is someone in the world who's game in python would be nothing when compared to your game in C#. It's certainly fine to post your opinions, but please please don't mislead people with invalid facts that could cause them to make the wrong decision when choosing a language. What many people need to understand is that it's much more about the coder than it is the language they code with. The language plays a part certainly, but we don't want someone using C# and having a hard time with it when python would have been much easier for that particular person. And we also don't want someone to make the decision of using python and having a hard time because C# would have been easier for that particular person. But that will happen more and more with topics like this where we provide baseless facts about this or that language without proper evidence, thus misleading them. And I'm sorry, but the "You know I'm right" comment in particular just makes me cringe with the implied dickishness. If you think C# is what will work for you, that's awesome. And it's fine to post that in an opinionated form. As I said, more power to you if you've selected a language and can work with it. But others have different opinions, and you shouldn't try swaying potential devs to this or that with facts that I'm sorry, but are in some cases very wrong. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444055/#p444055 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development Rastislav Kiss, Thank you. In fact, I also wanted to say this, but I couldn't.nuno69, Do you know what the main argument is about the performance of those developers who advise Python?***Python has been used in big projects. Google uses Python, etc.***But they forget that there Python is not the only programming language. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444051/#p444051 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development C# is much much better than Python IMO. But the stuff you talk about Python are stupid. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444050/#p444050 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
2019-06-25
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Developers room : Rastislav Kiss via Audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development Hi there,there are more things to address, but I don't want to criticise. It wouldn't have any sense at all, I think there were enough wars about this kind of topics on this forum.I will address just one statement, regarding Python and oop. Not because of criticism, but because it reminded me one thing, that I haven't seen mentioned here yet and which is imo important to mention for beginners, if they read this topic.It's not true, that there is no encapsulation or other oop principles in Python. But it is also true, that Python isn't so strict about them.That is because Python developers do they work in style: "We are all adults. We know, what we're doing."And that is also the nature of Python. In C#, Java and other languages, you are restricted to certain patterns to emforce good programming style. For example marking types of arguments in methods. it prevent you from mistakes.But in Python, there is no need to mark types of arguments. It's because you are adult and you are expected to know, what will your method receive and if you make a mistake, it's your fault.And the same principle goes for nearly everything in Python, for encapsulation, inheritance, oop usage etc. Python doesn't force you to use classes at all. but that doesn't mean you shouldn't use them. You are just expected to do so, or not if you have a reason for it.And that reason in case of beginners could be potentially their lack of knowledge. Yes, Python is choosen by many beginners, because it has nice syntax. But if they aren't taught to proper coding styles, then its freedom and dynamic nature could lead into a disaster.That is why imo C# is more suitable for them, because its strict syntax clearly shows connections between things, something, that expected programmer is supposed to see without marks.I don't want to say of course that beginners shouldn't learn Python. Although I personally recommend C#, you can go this way as well. Just be carefull and keep in mind, that you're dealing with much more power and responsibility, than you might think for the first look.Best regardsRastislav URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444045/#p444045 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
2019-06-25
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Developers room : Rastislav Kiss via Audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development Hi there,there are more things to address, but I don't want to criticise. It wouldn't have any sense at all, I think there were enough wars about this kind of topics on this forum.I will address just one statement, regarding python and oop. Not because of criticism, but because it reminded me one thing, that I haven't seen mentioned here yet and which is imo important to mention for beginners, if they read this topic.It's not true, that there is no encapsulation or other oop principles in Python. But it is also true, that Python isn't so strict about them.That is because Python developers do they work in style: "We are all adults. We know, what we're doing."And that is also the nature of Python. In C#, Java and other languages, you are restricted to certain patterns to emforce good programming style. For example marking types of arguments in methods. it prevent you from mistakes.But in Python, there is no need to mark types of arguments. It's because you are adult and you are expected to know, what will your method receive and if you make a mistake, it's your fault.And the same principle goes for nearly everything in Python, for encapsulation, inheritance, oop usage etc. Python doesn't force you to use classes at all. but that doesn't mean you shouldn't use them. You are just expected to do so, or not if you have a reason for it.And that reason in case of beginners could be potentially their lack of knowledge. Yes, Python is choosen by many beginners, because it has nice syntax. But if they aren't taught to proper coding styles, then its freedom and dynamic nature could lead into a disaster.That is why imo C# is more suitable for them, because its strict syntax clearly shows connections between things, something, that expected programmer is supposed to see without marks.I don't want to say of course that beginners shouldn't learn Python. Although I personally recommend C#, you can go this way as well. Just be carefull and keep in mind, that you're dealing with much more power and responsibility, than you might think for the first look.Best regardsRastislav URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444045/#p444045 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development @4 I know, just wanted to send the point across. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444030/#p444030 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development To the original poster. Until you have created an audio game that is in the community's hands, you have no room to judge what is or isn't a quote unquote good language for creating games in. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444028/#p444028 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development @2, python can be used to develop huge games, and games like toontown are written in it.it is fast enough to code scientific applications in it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444025/#p444025 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development jonikster wrote:because you know that I'm right.You are wrong, because you don't know about python (and I'll tell you why you are wrong).jonikster wrote:Many developers here advise Python as a programming language for audio games.this is their matter of preference, and they are happy with it.jonikster wrote:Those who advise you to use Python have not developed a single game.so Did you?jonikster wrote:SoundRTS, Undead Assault, is the most popular games developed in Python.But if you ask me if there are any good games in Python, at least one good game, I'll answer you, no!This is again a matter of preference. it doesn't matter if you like a game or not.jonikster wrote:Are there any games in C#? Yes.3-D velocity, A Hero's Call, Tactical Battles, Entombed, should I continue?But it doesn't mean that a programmer should just stick to c#.jonikster wrote:1. Performance.Python is slow. It's true.In order for your code to be fast, you need to optimize it. Use libraries that are already optimized. Use cython, but I'll please you, it will not help in all cases.so, you are saying you should write an optimized code. this is true for each and every programming language.back to the performance of python and I want to give you evidance that shows you are entirely wrong.Checkout tensorflow, Pytorch, mxnet, etc. all of these libraries work with python (these are deep learning libraries).Training neural networks is slow, because of tooning parameters of neural networks etc (which is not for this post), and unfortunately (or fortunately), every programmer does this in python. this was the first reason that shows you are wrong.jonikster wrote:While you're creating small games like Redspot, Ultrapower (I think these games are small games), this problem may not disturb you.But if you want to create a game like STW or more, like video games like Call Of Duty, or even more so Grand Theft Auto...Toontown is written in python (which is a multi player game) and we have many great libraries for video game development in python (pygame, pysdl2, panda3d, etc).jonikster wrote:For offline games, you can use BGT. But for Online ...You can use bgt as well. it has support for UDP protocol (it doesn't have support for tcp) (and most of the online games use udp).jonikster wrote:Do you know that networking in C# is better than networking in Python?Again this requires evidance. Why and how it is better, what it has to offer that Python or other programming languages can't?jonikster wrote:The cost of network input / output is so high that the performance of the runtime environment doesn't matter at all.the cost of network depends on many factors such as connection, distance with the server, etc.jonikster wrote:High-quality Python code does an excellent job with c10k. But CLR is much better at utilizing resources than Python VM, so for a very large application under very serious workloads, using C# is more profitable.Why it is more profitable? How did you compared these?jonikster wrote:2. Cross-platform.With Python, you can't develop for Android. No, you can, but with Python, this is not enough.C# has Xamarin. C# has Mono, Monogame, with which you can develop applications not only for Android, but also for iOS.python-for-android is made for development for android. also, you can use jython, which compiles your python code to java's Bytecode.jonikster wrote:3. Python teaches improper programming.Don't tell me that in most European and American schools and universities, Python is used to teach the basics of programming. I know about it.But for the basics of object-oriented programming, for some reason use such programming languages as Java. Have you ever wondered why?Because there is no object-oriented programming in Python!so, you know what is object oriented programming and others don'tnow, let me tell you that it has proper support for it, (pytorch and mxnet use it to represent neural networks).jonikster wrote:In C#, you can learn proper object-oriented programming and more. More difficult things, pointers, as you wish.pointers are used for memory management (at least in C/C++), and they don't have anything related to oop.jonikster wrote:Python is a good programming language. I'm still learning this for web applications. But I'll never use it for audio games ...in your previous post, you were talking that python is not good for web applications (I don't know how you changed your mind). URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444024/#p444024 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
Re: For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development I'll just say this.Talking about which language is better clearly shows that you are still a beginner.A developer is damn free to use what he wants to. Python may be slow, but you seriously can not compare an interpreted language with a compiled language. It would be like comparing a car with a bicycle.On top of that languages are made for different reasons and with different architectures.Java and c# share a common architecture which is the object oriented paradigm.Python does not focus on OOP as much as c# does, but this doesn't mean that you can not make OOP applications with it.Only because private properties in a class can be accessed does not mean that python's inheritance does not work.And of course python isn't good to make games suchas GTA since it would be slow as hell. It was not made for this. For that you would purely need speed and performance which can be obtained by compiled languages such as c, c++ and c#.But, for audiogames is different.I ensure you that audiogames in python are not slow at all (if developed correctly). And I also ensure you that a c# audiogame or game could be slow (if not developed correctly). There are soo many factors to the table that you can not come here and say "oh this is better and this sucks so stop using it."Please, use google, I ensure you that is really useful. But search deeply.Sorry if I sounded arrogant, but I tried to explain as much as I could. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444015/#p444015 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development
For beginners. Why is C# better than Python for audio game development Hello.I'm creating an audio lesson for a Russian audio gaming site about C#.I don't speak English enough to record such a lesson in English. For this reason, here for beginners, I'd like to tell why C # is better than Python in programming audio games.In the beginning, I want to say. Those people about whom I will speak, don't judge me, because you know that I'm right.Many developers here advise Python as a programming language for audio games.I agree that this is a simple, good programming language. But I believe that every tool should perform its tasks.Those who advise you to use Python have not developed a single game.SoundRTS, Undead Assault, is the most popular games developed in Python.But if you ask me if there are any good games in Python, at least one good game, I'll answer you, no!Are there any games in C#? Yes.3-D velocity, A Hero's Call, Tactical Battles, Entombed, should I continue?I'll tell you 3 things. Only 3 things that I believe should lead you to the truth. If this is not enough, I'll be happy to answer your questions in this topic. Or go with Python, but you may regret...1. Performance.Python is slow. It's true.In order for your code to be fast, you need to optimize it. Use libraries that are already optimized. Use cython, but I'll please you, it will not help in all cases.While you're creating small games like Redspot, Ultrapower (I think these games are small games), this problem may not disturb you.But if you want to create a game like STW or more, like video games like Call Of Duty, or even more so Grand Theft Auto...In short, in this case, I'll not feel sorry for your housemates who will hear your curses.For offline games, you can use BGT. But for Online ...Do you know that networking in C# is better than networking in Python?The cost of network input / output is so high that the performance of the runtime environment doesn't matter at all. High-quality Python code does an excellent job with c10k. But CLR is much better at utilizing resources than Python VM, so for a very large application under very serious workloads, using C# is more profitable.2. Cross-platform.With Python, you can't develop for Android. No, you can, but with Python, this is not enough.C# has Xamarin. C# has Mono, Monogame, with which you can develop applications not only for Android, but also for iOS.3. Python teaches improper programming.Don't tell me that in most European and American schools and universities, Python is used to teach the basics of programming. I know about it.But for the basics of object-oriented programming, for some reason use such programming languages as Java. Have you ever wondered why?Because there is no object-oriented programming in Python!Rather, like this: Because in Python there is no proper object-oriented programming!Dear developers, I'm sober. I understand what I'm saying now.In Python, everything is an object. I know, I remember.Have you seen encapsulation in Python? If not, ever learn it. If yes, I'll not continue...In C#, you can learn proper object-oriented programming and more. More difficult things, pointers, as you wish.P.S.Python is a good programming language. I'm still learning this for web applications. But I'll never use it for audio games ... URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/444000/#p444000 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
