Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? camlornRgarding your first message, i m sorry to say that, but it's mostly bs and non sence, because firstly comparing a scripting language (python/bgt) and other self safitient programing languages are laughable.i wouldn't say Python is bad with it's syntacs, sure thing it's great language from many aspects, however calling newer programing languages is modern, saying like low level languages are outdated.a person WHO is in to programing seriously wouldn't go for such thing, because what ever suits a programmer's needs is the language suppose to be used.on the otherhand you can even code your own programing language, for instants: python has coded with c++.in fact i m not a fan of pure basic, i've barely discovered it, but it sounds like a gold after python which you and i like mutch, however i hate interpretters and pb hasn't have it which is a plus for me. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=297775#p297775 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? camlornRgarding your first message, i m sorry to say that, but it's mostly bs and non sence, because firstly comparing a scripting language (python/bgt) and other self safitient programing languages are laughable.i wouldn't say Python is bad with it's syntacs, sure thing it's great language from many aspects, however calling newer programing languages is modern, saying like low level languages are outdated.a person WHO is in to programing seriously wouldn't go for such thing, because what ever suits a programmer's needs is the language suppose to be used.on the otherhand you can even code your own programing language, for instants: python has coded with c++.in fact i m not a fan of püre basic, i've barely discovered it, but it sound like a gold after python which you and i like mutch, however i hate interpretters and pb hasn't have it which is a plus for me. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=297775#p297775 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? camlornRgarding first message, i m sorry to say that, but it's mostly bs and non sence, because firstly comparing a scripting language (python/bgt) and other self safitient programing languages are laughable.i wouldn't say Python is bad with it's syntacs, sure thing it's great language from many aspects, however calling newer programing languages is URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=297775#p297775 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Just moved from MS Visual Basic to PureBasic.From reading these posts it has moved on quite a bit since they were posted.Found the language easy to understand and recieved a lot of help from their forum.In just over a year with no programming training I am now capable of writing my own custom gadgets etc and am mow delving into MIDI stuff. VB does, I believe have a role to play in getting hobbyist programmers started, but for me PureBasic really is the thing each programme I write I move cross platform with very few problems and even localising my efforts is getting easier.Since starting with PurBasic I have not touched VB at all!Regardscd URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=293633#p293633 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? They may be doing the following hack somewhere:list(mydict.keys())Or similar, which would indeed cause slowdowns. In general, programs that run on both versions are not-quite-Python, and you typically bring in something like six. Given the age of the software, its possible they never quite transitioned to the new stuff in 2.x-Im thinking mostly of iterkeys, itervalues, and xrange. But Id still be very, very curious to see what their actual problem is-Im assuming they at least run on Python 3, otherwise we couldnt say that it was slower there. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186251#p186251 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? @Arqmeister, I use Visual Studio 2010 every day for doing C#.Ive been using it for a very long time so have the benefit of knowing many shortcut keys and knowing when VS is likely doing something even though my screen reader might not be reporting it.I use auto complete a lot, as well as go to definition and the refactorings like rename symbol and extract method.I also like the hot keys for commenting / uncommenting and auto formatting code.I can still use the debug watch window, but its a pain, so instead Ive focused on a good logging API.It turns out that a good logging API can actually be more helpful than the debugger in many cases, such as applications where youre running a loop many times a second, AKA games.If you decide to use C# and Visual Studio feel free to email me and we can setup a call to discuss it. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186253#p186253 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Thanks ian. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186257#p186257 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Ethin, you need to take a step back man. Camlorn states his oppinions, and he states them with authority and knoledge. If this is an issue for you, i suggest you stop replying to the thread, as Camlorn has done nothing to break forum rules. You are walking the fine line between oppinion and flaming, just keep that in mind. Now, if Camlorn had attacked you personally, this would be a very different post, but he has not, so eas up on your ranting please. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186094#p186094 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Hi,@Ethin: No offense, but with posts like these you are proving your lack of professionalism, which, in my book was very very thin ever since your posts about a possible compiler in the Dragonflame topic.I assume we are adults, so if you are tired of someones opinion, you are not enforced to read it, let alone tell everyone about it.Everyone is biased towards a certain language, for obvious reasons. Some features make a language more or less useful and since we are not the same, opinions will differ.To reflect on a couple things you raised:Yes, people who care about programming will certainly care about language features. OOP and smart pointers can be useful, but just because they are there it does not mean they have to be used every time you write code.Memory management is not the task of a compiler. In most high level languages, however, you will find some form of memory management (not necessarily garbage collection).PureBasic is great for many things, especiallyfor beginner level programmers, because it uses a lot of third party components. The language itself could be a lot better, but this does not change the fact that it is a great product. As with every product, however, you have limitations. As long as you are aware of these, you cant go wrong. Camlorn has his negative opinion, because he is aware of these. Think of vb6 versus PB.As this topic deals with PB, if you like it, purchase it and use it. Noone is going to stop you.Rob URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186106#p186106 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? To put my cards on the table and be very explicit about my opinion of C++:I am using C++ because Libaudioverse literally cannot be written in anything more programmer-friendly. I am not using C because C is missing a lot of things that make life just a bit more bearable. I am using smart pointers because, at the level I am having to work, I do not have a GC. I cant even afford to use the GC if one was available because I am writing realtime audio code and even a millisecond pause not in my control can and will cause problems. Yet, because of the data structures I must represent, manually freeing stuff is next to impossible to get right. Every single feature of C++ that I bring into the project has to be carefully considered beforehand, lest it slow things down in a way that cannot be fixed later without rewriting everything. Coding like this is not fun, at all. I believe that C++11 brings C++ even further from C in that you can fake having a Gc and that you have a very nice syntax for anonymous functions and closures. I would not point a new programmer at C or C++-I find it adequate, but only because I spent a lot of time finding it inadequate and figuring out what kinds of practices I would regret next week when I had to extend something. Please do not mistake adequate for undying passion, or anything above just barely acceptable.And to put my cards on the table about Purebasic, since this seems to be necessary:I used and owned Purebasic for quite a while. This would have been around 2005. I did a lot of stuff in it, sadly lost with my first computer-this was before I knew about version control, FTP servers, or external backups. I am speaking as someone with the experience of being a programmer that went through something like 5 variants of Basic, including the lesser-known BNS basic for the Braille N Speak 2000 (my first language). I stuc k with three for a long period of about 4 years: Libertybasic, Freebasic, and Purebasic. Purebasic, of all of them, was the closest to C; I went there directly after using it. The one thing I wish I had been told from this period was that there were more capable languages, as I didnt find C++ or Python until years later. If I could go back and make myself skip the low-level languages in which its actually obvious how many instructions every line is likely to need, Id probably be twice as far along as I am now-the higher level languages take away so many concerns. Nevertheless, I am speaking as a former Purebasic programmer and am at least passably fluent in at least 10 programming languages at the moment.@frastlinYou can go to C or C++, but Im not sure how much it would help. C and C++ tend to have their own special best practices revolving around the fact that theyre ridiculously low-level, and it took me a yea r or so of serious use (camlorn_audio) to reach the point where the statement C++ is a write-only language stopped being true. If you dont know what youre doing, you can bring together too many features into code that is nearly impossible to extend or understand, even a day later. As for the relation, C++ is (mostly) a superset of C; theres only one gotcha I know of, but you wont encounter it for a while. The point of knowing where C ends and C++ begins is super useful because almost everything can call out to C or C++ functions with C linkage and using only C data types. For that reason, starting with C can help you design multi-language libraries better. As for running them on windows, every C++ compiler I can think of is also a C compiler, so installing C++ *is* installing C.But in terms of algorithms and best programming practices, youll get these just as well with Python. Possibly better: a lot of things like test-driven development are really easy there and really hard elsewhere (on that note, look up and learn py.test. You can thank me later). The piece you seem to be missing is experience, nothing more; experience will let you determine when you shouldnt use things, when spending an hour to rewrite a piece of code will be worth it later, etc. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186145#p186145 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? At camlorn: i might have asked this before so bare with me if i have. But is there an accessible ide one could use to program in either c, c#, or c++? I ask because as a programmer still learning, a nice feature would be code correction, or some type of accessible debugging tool. When i played around with vb6 a few years back, the ide was accessible, and it had some interesting auto correct features that appeared helpful on the surface at least. So, i guess my question is, can i get an application that will auto compile for me, and offer debugging capabilitys? Sounds lazy i know, im sure i could figure out command-line tools, but im just looking for a launching point to really launch my inthusiasm for programming in general, as for me at least, its been an on again, off again interest for several years. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186155#p186155 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Unfortunately, not really. The only one that even professes to be accessible and the only one Ive ever had much luck with is Eclipse. Learning Eclipse is probably as complicated as learning the command line tools you would be using anyway, and the autocomplete/code correction isnt actually accessible even there (or at least not that I know of). Not to mention that the latest versions are currently broken with NVDA: this has been on my to-patch list forever now, but I dont use IDEs so I havent had the motivation to slog through the Python metaclass at NVDAs core.If you are on Jaws, you can kinda get VS2010 working. 2012 is a complete wreck, and even 2010 and jaws has bugs all over the place that make it very sarcastically enjoyable. I do remember the days of 2008 and think of them fondly. 2013 is kinda sorta better, but the debuggers are broken still and MS says that they wont have them in 2014 either. sp; So...sorry, and do tell the command prompt I said hi. Its only bad for the first week, and Id suggest looking up Virtuawin because Virtuawin has been a godsend for me and my 6-8 open windows (hope, teamtalk, command prompt, editor, explorer, and at least one internet browser). URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186161#p186161 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Unfortunately, not really. The only one that even professes to be accessible and the only one Ive ever had much luck with is Eclipse. Learning Eclipse is probably as complicated as learning the command line tools you would be using anyway, and the autocomplete/code correction isnt actually accessible even there (or at least not that I know of). Not to mention that the latest versions are currently broken with NVDA: this has been on my to-patch list forever now, but I dont use IDEs so I havent had the motivation to slog through the Python metaclass at NVDAs core.If you are on Jaws, you can kinda get VS2010 working. 2012 is a complete wreck, and even 2010 and jaws has bugs all over the place that make it very sarcastically enjoyable. I do remember the days of 2008 and think of them fondly. 2013 is kinda sorta better, but the debuggers are broken still and MS says that they wont have them in 2014 either. sp; So...sorry, and do tell the command prompt I said hi. Its only bad for the first week, and Id suggest looking up Virtuawin because Virtuawin has been a godsend for me and my 6-8 open windows (hope, teamtalk, command prompt, editor, explorer, and at least one internet browser).Edit:C# has no command line debugger anymore. This is true of all the .net languages. C++ has Gdb and Cdb, but which you want depends on the compiler. If youre a windows programmer, Cdb (works with VC++ executables) is your choice, but it has an amazing learning cliff. Gdb is for MinGW or Linux systems and works with executables made with Gcc. Its learning curve is more gentle for C, but both are equally hard when debugging C++ I think. Disclaimer: have not used Gdb with C++, but did spend about 2 months debugging near-continuously with it for a godwars variant with a coder with barely enough knowledge to cause problems faster than I ca n fix them and who wouldnt listen about really needing version control.But seriously, do not underestimate the debug print: printing the variables of interest at the point of interest. For Libaudioverse, this has been the only way; even for other software, good logging is going to be a lot more helpful in many cases. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186161#p186161 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? OK, guys, Im sorry for what I said in post 57. I was just angry because to me it seemed like Camlorn was being a no-it-all kind of guy. Im sorry about that. Im actually using C to learn how to use Flex and Bison. Oh, how wonderful itd be if there was a flex and bison for purebasic. Itd be really cool, eh? I could try that, you know. Itd be a very tempting project. You know, I think Ill start working on that. Its going to be soo much fun! URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186167#p186167 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? OK, guys, Im sorry for what I said in post 57. I was just angry because to me it seemed like Camlorn was being a no-it-all kind of guy. Im sorry about that. Im actually using C to learn how to use Flex and Bison. Oh, how wonderful itd be if there was a flex and bison for purebasic. Itd be really cool, eh? I could try that, you know. Itd be a very tempting project. You know, I think Ill start working on that. Its going to be soo much fun! Itll be named pbflex and pbbison. Wait, that doesnt sound good. I think I need suggestions for names for the too!Oh, I just realized something. A little help for using command line parameters in PB would be nice. If anyone knows how to do that, please tell me! I cant do anything without that!And as programmers say, Programming is always fun as long as you want it to be. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186167#p186167 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? @frastlin: You may have to wait quite a while.Or you could get a Mac, and learn Swift. Unix is written mostly in C. In fact, C was designed for implementing Unix. @camlorn: I guess well have to see how portable your library ends up being. Thats the real test; as soon as you discover that some Unspecified behaviour in STL makes a subtle difference to the way your library behaves depending on the compiler in use, or a helpful exception right in the middle of a stack unwind leaves you with no option but to abort hard, youve hit the nail of dangerous abstractions on the head. I did take a brief look at C++ 11, but the only takeaway from it that I got that really mattered was that the C++ committee has clearly decided to please all the industrial and academic types with even more bewildering levels of syntax sugar to support the very latest language features, and that some of the best bits of Boost had been pulled in to make the language slightly more portable. Progress! One of these days Ill sit down and try to actually figure it out, but right now Im not convinced you actually require C++ for anything; by the time youve turned off all the dangerous and/or unpredictable bits youre back where you started, basically C with a few more syntactical conveniences, and a few nice standard library routines. Not to say you cant use them if you really are careful, just that again, for some folk, it doesnt warrant the use of C++. We can certainly agree that C/C++ is more mainstream than PureBasic though, but of course by itself thats no reason not to use it, either. For me, its cle ar why I use C, but if C but prettier is what people want, why not let them have it? Tcl is C but prettier too (actually, Tcl 8.6 finally introduced OO, but you can easily leave it out if you choose) and I use that, irrespective of popularity.As to my comment about Python evolving into Java: the primary argument given by Pythonistas seems to me to be that Java encourages Cookbook design, by providing all the libraries for every conceivable use case. Well, just look at Python 3 and the enormously expanded base classes. Its not Java yet, but it must soon turn into it. As you said there are market forces at work, and yes, the runtime is really slowing down. This is bad for server applications, so theyd better work on it. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186188#p186188 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? @frastlin: You may have to wait quite a while.Or you could get a Mac, and learn Swift. Unix is written mostly in C. In fact, C was designed for implementing Unix. You can learn C and C++ incrementally. Learn C so that you know what that language provides. Then learn C++ so you know what that provides (objects, exceptions, templates, runtime dynamic allocation, first-class functions, all that jazz). Youll also be able to use all these nice well-written implementations for useful things like strings, algorithms, structures, etc. like a proper industrialist. But youve got to start somewhere. @camlorn: I guess well have to see how portable your librar y ends up being. Thats the real test; as soon as you discover that some Unspecified behaviour in STL makes a subtle difference to the way your library behaves depending on the compiler in use, or a helpful exception right in the middle of a stack unwind leaves you with no option but to abort hard, youve hit the nail of dangerous abstractions on the head. I did take a brief look at C++ 11, but the only takeaway from it that I got that really mattered was that the C++ committee has clearly decided to please all the industrial and academic types with even more bewildering levels of syntax sugar to support the very latest language features, and that some of the best bits of Boost had been pulled in to make the language slightly more portable. Progress! One of these days Ill sit down and try to actually figure it out, but right now Im not convinced you actually require C++ for anything; by the time youve turned off all the dangerous and/or unpredictable bits youre back where you started, basically C with a few more syntactical conveniences, and a few nice standard library routines. Not to say you cant use them if you really are careful, just that again, for some folk, it doesnt warrant the use of C++. We can certainly agree that C/C++ is more mainstream than PureBasic though, but of course by itself thats no reason not to use it, either. For me, its clear why I use C, but if C but prettier is what people want, why not let them have it? Tcl is C but prettier too (actually, Tcl 8.6 finally introduced OO, but you can easily leave it out if you choose) and I use that, irrespective of popularity.As to my comment about Python evolving into Java: the primary argument given by Pythonistas seems to me to be that Java encourages Cookbook design, by providing all the libraries for every conceivable use case. Well, just look at Python 3 and the enormously expanded base classes. Its not Java yet, but it must soon turn into it. As you said there are market forces at work, and yes, the runtime is really slowing down. This is bad for server applications, so theyd better work on it. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186188#p186188 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? @frastlin: You may have to wait quite a while.Or you could get a Mac, and learn Swift. Unix is written mostly in C. In fact, C was designed for implementing Unix. You can learn C and C++ incrementally. Learn C so that you know what that language provides. Then learn C++ so you know what that provides (objects, exceptions, templates, runtime dynamic allocation, first-class functions, all that jazz). Youll also be able to use all these nice well-written implementations for useful things like strings, algorithms, structures, etc. like a proper industrialist. But youve got to start somewhere. @camlorn: I guess well have to see how portable your librar y ends up being. Thats the real test; as soon as you discover that some Unspecified behaviour in STL makes a subtle difference to the way your library behaves depending on the compiler in use, or a helpful exception right in the middle of a stack unwind leaves you with no option but to abort hard, youve hit the nail of dangerous abstractions on the head. I did take a brief look at C++ 11, but the only takeaway from it that I got that really mattered was that the C++ committee has clearly decided to please all the industrial and academic types with even more bewildering levels of syntax sugar to support the very latest language features, and that some of the best bits of Boost had been pulled in to make the language slightly more portable. Progress! One of these days Ill sit down and try to actually figure it out, but right now Im not convinced you actually require C++ for anything; by the time youve turned off all the dangerous and/or unpredictable bits youre back where you started, basically C with a few more syntactical conveniences, and a few nice standard library routines. Not to say you cant use them if you really are careful, just that again, for some folk, it doesnt warrant the use of C++. We can certainly agree that C/C++ is more mainstream than PureBasic though, but of course by itself thats no reason not to use it, either. For me, its clear why I use C, but if C but prettier is what people want, why not let them have it? Tcl is C but prettier too (actually, Tcl 8.6 finally introduced OO, but you can easily leave it out if you choose) and I use that, irrespective of popularity.As to my comment about Python evolving into Java: the primary argument given by Pythonistas seems to me to be that Java encourages Cookbook design, by providing all the libraries for every conceivable use case. Well, just look at Python 3 and the enormously expanded base classes. Its not Java yet, but it must soon turn into it. As you said there are market forces at work, and yes, the runtime is really slowing down. This is bad for server applications, so theyd better work on it.As to Visual Studio, Im still in two minds about whether or not to renew MSDN. I too remember 2008 with much fondness. I dont like to reward M$s lack of commitment like this, but they have such nice platform support, it seems a shame to have to resort to using substitutes or earlier versions, so Ive just exported all my stuff as build files and tweaked and run them from the CLI. But Id rather not. If they leave me with no option, I have heard great things about CMake. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186188#p186188 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? @frastlin: You may have to wait quite a while.Or you could get a Mac, and learn Swift. Unix is written mostly in C. In fact, C was designed for implementing Unix. You can learn C and C++ incrementally. Learn C so that you know what that language provides. Then learn C++ so you know what that provides (objects, exceptions, templates, runtime dynamic allocation, (very nearly) first-class functions and lambdas, all that jazz). Youll also be able to use all these nice well-written implementations for useful things like strings, algorithms, structures, etc. like a proper industrialist. But youve got to start somewhere. @camlorn: I guess well have to se e how portable your library ends up being. Thats the real test; as soon as you discover that some Unspecified behaviour in STL makes a subtle difference to the way your library behaves depending on the compiler in use, or a helpful exception right in the middle of a stack unwind leaves you with no option but to abort hard, youve hit the nail of dangerous abstractions on the head. I did take a brief look at C++ 11, but the only takeaway from it that I got that really mattered was that the C++ committee has clearly decided to please all the industrial and academic types with even more bewildering levels of syntax sugar to support the very latest language features, and that some of the best bits of Boost had been pulled in to make the language slightly more portable. Progress! One of these days Ill sit down and try to actually figure it out, but right n ow Im not convinced you actually require C++ for anything; by the time youve turned off all the dangerous and/or unpredictable bits youre back where you started, basically C with a few more syntactical conveniences, and a few nice standard library routines. Not to say you cant use them if you really are careful (compare COM in C and C++, its really night and day), just that again, for some folk, it doesnt warrant the use of C++. We can certainly agree that C/C++ is more mainstream than PureBasic though, but of course by itself thats no reason not to use it, either. For me, its clear why I use C, but if C but prettier is what people want, why not let them have it? Tcl is C but prettier too (actually, Tcl 8.6 finally introduced OO, but you can easily leave it out if you choose) and I use that, irrespective of popularity, though to be fair thats probably because I understand the implementation well enough to extend it when I need.As to my comment about Python evolving into Java: the primary argument given by Pythonistas seems to me to be that Java encourages Cookbook design, by providing all the libraries for every conceivable use case. Well, just look at Python 3 and the enormously expanded base classes. Its not Java yet, but it must soon turn into it. As you said there are market forces at work, and yes, the runtime is really slowing down. This is bad for server applications, so theyd better work on it.As to Visual Studio, Im still in two minds about whether or not to renew MSDN. I too remember 2008 with much fondness. I dont like to reward M$s lack of commitment like this, but they have such nice platform support, it seems a shame to have to resort to using substitutes or earlier versions, so Ive just exported all my stuff as build files and tweaked and run them from the CLI. But Id rather not. If they leave me with no option, I have heard great things about CMake.Edit: transpires that C++ supports lambdas but first-class functions are limited by the garbage collector. I didnt know that, so Im correcting. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186188#p186188 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? I cant convey the things I like about C++11 in a short post, so I wont try. Its a major boon for those of us who think in functions, and Ive already hit smart pointers to death. Worth noting that both of these things existed--to some extent--in Boost: one day I will learn how they managed to fake lambdas, but Im definitely not there yet. Nevertheless, lambdas, atomics, cross-platform threading, shared_ptr, hash tables, and tuples are the big ones. I do not touch nor suggest touching variatic templates, and the rest is aimed at library developers in my opinion. Gcc, Clang, and VC++2013 all implement everything that Im likely to want from it. If it werent for the few killer features from C++11 that I absolutely had to have, Id still be pure C and wouldnt have spent the 3 weeks converting properly.Ive not yet seen a case of the stl throwing exceptions only on one platform, but I ;ve not yet started aggressively compiling on Linux/Mac. Im currently overcoming the fact that all cross-platform audio libraries I can find are either lacking features or coming with crippling bugs, so Ive got bigger concerns. I keep hearing this from the older programmers, but am unsure how true it still is as we seem to have converged on 3 implementations instead of 10-20. I looked into it pretty intensively, and everyone seems to be saying its okay now. But Im not using the STL too heavily: its only really strongly used in the graph execution planner, and I know how to reimplement smart pointers if needed.Cmake is good and awful in exactly the same ways as Php. It gets a job done and does it well, but going even a bit beyond what it wants to let you do is headache-inducing and theres 5 ways to do everything. That said, literally everything else is too slow (scons) or provides no suppo rt for actually figuring out where things are (excluding autoconf, but thats really Linux only).And as for Python, Ive not seen anyone complaining about performance post 3.4, but have heard some stuff about 3.3 and earlier having I/O problems. The slowdown--if any--is minimal enough that all the articles about why Python 3 is bad dont seem to mention it. Since Pypy now supports Python 3, it doesnt much matter-go use that and you get a JIT and, as of a couple months ago, an experimental implementation of STM (also known as GIL-less Python). I need to do proper research on the slowdown, but I would also argue that servers are I/O bound for the most part anyway. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186194#p186194 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Can you provide sources? I googled the Python slowdown, but found nothing conclusive or, really, anything that would account for something noticeable in such a situation. Ive not looked closely at Python 3 myself yet as my interests with Python all seem to converge back at Twisted. Gevent is a bad idea, the people who want to help me know Twisted, and Asyncio doesnt have a few of the pieces I want. Also, everything but Libaudioverse is on hold because everything depends on Libaudioverse.My knee-jerk reaction is that this is likely to be poor implementation in the mail server, but I do not at the moment have enough information to make such claims. I find it very surprising that a mail server can run on both because, unless its using trollius, its not using one of the big (and thus optimized) options, at least none of the ones Im aware of. Imho, in a language with a plethora of better options, why us e TCP sockets yourself? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186203#p186203 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Something to do with Python3 enumeration being slower. I have to be honest, as Im not a Python developer myself, much of what I know about performance is hearsay, mostly the results of benchmarks. But I can say that Python performance does have an effect on speed of processing lists in Mailman. As its only the mailing lists, once the mail is queued with the MTA, written in C, the performance will be high again, but there is a bottleneck at the point the list mail is being dispatched by Mailman. Apparently Mailman 3 will have a whole new architecture compatible with Python 3, so this is presumably going to work properly; until that time, its required for the stable branch of Mailman 2 that you use Python 2.7. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186204#p186204 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? No, in pygame, every key has a number. Every key with a mod has a number and every mod combo has a number.Also, if you alt-tab into the application you may have a different number for your mod keys for some reason. So there is like 4 numbers for the 2 shift keys alone. That is why it is on my list of things to do to make a function to return names for them. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185912#p185912 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Sure. It has a community. I didnt say it did.But it is small. This cant even be argued. Relative to the communities for all the mainstream languages, it is small. There are a few sites for it. That is all. All the other more mainstream languages have thousands of blogs, dedicated Stackoverflow tags, multiple books, the list goes on. This part of my statement is not opinionated. I can find 10x-100x more documentation for the mainstream languages. And as for referring to the manual, Id be willing to bet quite a lot that you referred to the PB one just as much at the beginning. You have to. Its how you learn the language in the first place.Im just not seeing why, when the question which programming language should I learn? comes up, people jump off the good community to help me do it bandwagon, not to mention all the other bandwagons that dont really get replaced in most cases. Im not thinking about professionalism here, and I suppose theres something for because I can use it. But those who use it are able to do so because they learned it and, if the coin toss went a different way, I dont see why anyone wouldnt be saying the same things about Python. Or assembly. I really believe that we could substitute assembly in for Purebasic in this thread and, if enough people in this community had used it, have the same exact conversation.Python and C++ are what Ive seen called multiparadyme. You can but do not have to use object-oriented features in either. As of C++11, you have the ability to do the same level of functional programming in both, as both now have good support for first-class functions (see Pythons filter for a good example of why this matters). If you want, you can sort of get such features in any language with a function pointer, but it ;s almost meaningless without the syntactic sugar and you cant do a lot of the advanced stuff.And to be honest, you can fake OO in C-like languages, too. But it requires knowing a lot about memory representations. The idea is to create a vtable, to have all instances of the class have a pointer to the vtable, and to then call your functions by referencing the vtables directly. You can wrap this up nicely in macros, if you want and, if you put in the effort, you get inheritance and polymorphism out the other side. These are however complicated enough that people switch to C++ rather than make their own. I can assure you that you will want them for a game, too: its how you can treat all the enemies as enemies and yet have them behave differently.As for code size with C++, yes, its a bit larger. But only because of the #include statements. I do not count boilerplate code. I do not sugg est C++ to people looking for productivity, but the reasons for this are the same as those I would cite for Purebasic-i.e. code size is not the big one or really even on the table. What happens is, as your project gets larger, the extra lines from hello world become less and less compared to the rest. Libaudioverse is somewhere around 3000 lines now. At the beginning, the #includes were indeed numerous compared to it, but Id say theyre easily only 0.5% of the project at this point. Perhaps I should do a specific analysis, but every language has something analogous anyway, so it doesnt really matter. The rest of the code size question comes down to how good of a coder you are, not so much the language; if adding a feature comes out the other side with *less* lines than when you started, its a good sign you just did something majorly right. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185963#p185963 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Not everybody appreciates OO. Indeed, many people object to it, if youll pardon the pun, because it encourages an obsession with the theoretical, rather than the practical, and a top-down rather than bottom-up mentality. This is unsuitable for some programmers, regardless of the projects size. For a nice illustration of this, try Linus Torvalds on C++ (warning: contains naughty words). Id struggle to find fault with his argument, even though I think its inappropriate to deny that choice to those who know how to use it correctly and appreciate the abstractions.Speaking for myself, Im not willing to compromise that kind of control, even in the name of development time. C hurts good, but ultimately its the subset of every other language and if as a programmer you require runtime abstraction, you can build it for yourself. Many of the best programmers do this; for example, they build themselves replacements for C library routines to handle strings using compact and bounds-checked memory representations, to avoid buffer overruns. This is not suitable for general usage, but it absolutely provides comparable convenience, is more portable, more efficient, and doesnt come with the penalty of constant redevelopment over time as interfaces change. YMMV. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185977#p185977 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? But in C, can you import other peoples code into your code or do you need to make everything all on your own?For example, the random module. I dont care how to generate a random number. I just want to have a random number when I need one. so in python I just sayimport randomprint random.randint(1,5)that will give me a number between 1 and 5.The C vs C++ argument is a very fierce one and here is what my favorite take is on it:C is the mad scientist cackling maniacally while his big, world-smashing robot C++ destroys the world.So would you rather be the scientist or the robot?Ive never used either, this is just what people have told me. I am planning on using C or C++ as a supplemental language to python. Nothing beats python when it comes to popping out random junk, but:1. that junk is not always very fast2. you can have really bad tendencies in python if you dont know what you are doin g.As someone who just uses python and a little _javascript_, I can say that the only reason I dont use global variables, exec or eval functions along with while loops all over, is because people have said This is bad coding practice It isnt really any different speed wise when you are just starting out.But there is a reason why python is so syntactically pretty and I think part of it is that is completely based off C.Learn code the hard way does have a learn C the hard way but they dont have learn C++ the hard wayHere are the reasons why he says to learn C:You cant be sloppy and half-assed about what you write or nothing will work. its a simple language you can figure out on your ownCs not hiding things from you that those other languages try and fail to obfuscate.It is the Devil, Satan, the trickster Loki come to destroy your productivity with his seductive t alk of pointers and direct access to the machine. The C programming languages only failing is giving you access to what is really there, and telling you the cold hard raw truth. So, why do you not get the above in C++? How syntactically similar are the two? Is it like python and _javascript_?Or are they basically the same, but with a couple differences like American and British?speed wise, is there a difference?Ive got my productivity language, what would be the language to help me:understand APIs from big programs like Sonar, Spotify or even google, give me better programming practices and most of all, give me a language to write a specific DLL or module that I can use in my project that will be super fast when ran?Does this sound more like C or C++? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186001#p186001 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? I think youd better stick to Python.Of course you can use a random-number generator implemented in C; in fact, if you use your OS support, you are using one written in C, most likely (not the C library, but an in-kernel implementation).And to answer your question: Id rather be the mad scientist. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186004#p186004 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? I think youd better stick to Python.Of course you can use a random-number generator implemented in C; in fact, if you use your OS support, you are using one written in C, most likely (not the C library, but an in-kernel implementation).And to answer your question: Id rather be the mad scientist. It is my considered ( but not very hard ) opinion that you should learn C, if for no other reason than that it will help you appreciate all the other languages, including C++ and Python.The reason to look at C++ is that, much like C, there is a tendency--some would argue, to the demerit of object-oriented programming--to have a 1:1 correspondence between the primitives of the language and useful features. Yes, this does cost runtime performance, but it ;s nothing like as bad as either Python or Java (Python is actually getting slower over time). Yet, like C, C++ is quite dangerous, and as Linus Torvalds intimates, its quite easy to hurt yourself with it. You can see why its used in embedded systems development.APIs should all have C interfaces, because its the lowest common denominator. Therefore learn C, and everything that follows can be expressed as a binding to C, and you will be in a position to understand the lowest level implementation of a library. Its not all that hard, really it isnt.Or dont bother. Enjoy the comforts of standing on the shoulders of giants. Hey, whos to impress, really? I confidently predict that Python will be the next Java. Those smug Python programmers will never live it down. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186004#p186004 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Im waiting for the next big language to come along and have something that is even half as pretty as python.Would you say python has been getting slower? Python 3 supposedly removed a lot of the junk that was making it slower and bulky.How easy is it to create an application in C? I know unix was made in python, but anything like a .exe file that uses C?The learn C the hard way requires windows people to get a VM or distro of linux and I just got a new computer, so dont have linux installed yet.I also cant stand some of the little bugs and uncostomizability Orca has, NVDA is heaven in that respect.To go hand in hand with that, I dont know how to use jedit half as well as I know EdSharp.Now, how hard would it be to port NVDA to linux? LOL URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186011#p186011 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? @sebbyAgain: I do not use C++ specifically for the object oriented programming. Libaudioverse was going to be 100% C, and I wrote the necessary primitives. The reason I switched was not classes, it was smart pointers which, when making graphs of interconnected nodes, are really useful. If we were not in C++11, Libaudioverse would still be C. Had that happened, Id still have missed a lot-virtual methods have turned out to be a bit of a godsend for parts of Libaudioverse, and so too has algorithm. Im not all over OO as the way, but you have to admit that classes make a nice abstraction over the construction/destruction/bunch of methods that take the same first parameters stuff.As for speed between them, I noticed no difference. This was also a reason I was sticking with C. Once Id completed the conversion (and it is a full conversion, not C++-as-C), it still ran just as fast as before. This actually surprised me a great deal and was totally unexpected. I have heard of cases of math library developers using C++ over C because, via tricks with templates, you can actually get faster code; whether or not this is true, most of the math libraries I can find (in my case, specifically glm) are C++. But this may have to do more with operator overloading.As for top-down versus bottom-up: I think that top-down is what you want to aim for, but that bottom-up is what you get practically. Even in OO. But being able to do top-down, even a bit, leads to more flexible software with less corner cases. I did purely bottom-up with camlorn_audio, and it really shows in a bad way. The one isnt feasible, the other leads to bad code, but I think theres a happy medium in the middle.But my point wasnt that C++ is great. C++11 brings it into bearable and fine if you know what youre doing but not so great if you do nt territory. My point was merely the contradictory reasoning: Purebasic is C plus libraries, Purebasic is paid, and yet Purebasic is somehow way better than either of these even in terms of the learning curve.And as for Python being the next java, I dont think so. Theres a core thing in Java that allows many, many mediocre or even bad programmers to make progress: it assumes you are a bad programmer and does everything it can to lock you in a jail cell and plug all the outlets. Case and point: checked exceptions, lack of operator overloading, lack of multiple inheritance (somewhat alleviated in 8, far enough that the few cases Id use it for can be done), lack of first class functions (also somewhat alleviated in 8), and epic amounts of boilerplate. If Python becomes the next java, its because people seem to be starting to realize that Javas philosophy makes a lot of good programmers run in horror, or perhaps it s just that the good programmers are finally running and dragging the market with them.@Frastlin:Pythons syntax is so far from C as to be unrecognizable. Its definitely not based on C.Every programming language provides some mechanism by which you can include code written by others and most include a standard library. The answer to the question can I include someone elses stuff is always, always yes, but the convenience varies. In the case of C/C++, you have headers and #include, which is almost the same as copy-pasting the contents of the header into your file. This is a historical artifact from the days when compilers had to run on only a couple megabytes of ram and when modern techniques would cause us to wait additional hours, not additional milliseconds.I have also heard that Python is getting slower, but think this doesnt matter; our computers are getting faster way faster than pythons ge tting slower, even if it is.As for what you want, look at C first. You *have* to know what it means to be C to call stuff from other languages, as theres almost no way to directly map C++ classes. Libaudioverse does it by wrapping the C++ classes in a manually written C API, because thats actually possible once you know how.But in your case, I do not know what you would be doing that is going to run too slow. If it is, consider the algorithm, not the language. Im only doing heavy C/C++ right now because of Libaudioverse, which performs something on the order of 100 million math operations per second. I agree with sebby: you probably want to stick with Python for now. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186017#p186017 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? @camlorn, I am tired of your little smart pointers and shit like that. Who cares! Who cares if a language has this and a language has that! No one! Stop trying to convince us to use either language. Oh, and about your statement in post 39? You are wrong here. I have actually ran programs for python 2.7 on 3.3.Look. Im sorry for blowing up on you like this, but: will you please stop trying to convince us to use C++ because its got smart pointers? Who damn cares if its got that. Its not built in automatically. Ive never heard of a compiler which automatically manages memory for pointers for C or C++. Have you? Probably not. If you want to prove to me that C++ is so cool, why dont you write an entire game, with everything that, oh, DM Project Alpha has, and see how hard that is. Its a hell of a lot harder in C/C++ than it is in PB. Get this through your head: We use the languages that we choose because it gets the damn job done. If you keep trying to get us to stop using PB or some other language, Im reporting you. This is gone on far enough, and Ive had it with you. I havent heard anyone else tell me, You should use so and so because its got so and so.I understand that you like smart pointers, yes, but can you please try these languages that you say are bad for like 3 to 4 years, and get to know everyone who uses it, before you make accusations? It would really be nice. Then, once you get to know everything about the language, come back to us about it and tell us what you think.I understand your opinion, but just stop! Please?OK, I shouldnt have blown up like that, but your just really getting on my nerves. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186021#p186021 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Ethin, that post wasnt what you would call constructive debate. The impression I received from the over all post was that he was giving points on his specific language, not converting you to the language of choice. He specifically spoke about smart pointers, then recommended python also.Ill quote Camlorn here.lot-virtual methods have turned out to be a bit of a godsend for parts of Libaudioverse, and so too has algorithm. Im not all over OO as the way, but you have to admit that classes make a nice abstraction over the construction/destruction/bunch of methods that take the same first parameters stuff.In what way did that sound like he was trying to make people use a specific language? The nature of Libaudioverse means that he literally has to focus on other languages. If the library is going to be used, he needs as much compatibility as humanly possible.Yes python 2.7 programs will run with 3.3, if you are close enough to python 3s changes.Ill give a basic example.print( 5 divided by 2 is + str(5/2)+.)Python 3 uses float division by default. Python 2 does not. Using this in a serious application could result in rather interesting problems. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186043#p186043 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Yes, there are a couple programs that can run on both python 2 and 3. I think they may use several try statements, but python 3 is going back to the function calls, everything is a function! You can do the totally understated named arguments for everything! Why dont other languages use named arguments?def hello(name=fred, text=world): print(Hello, I am %s and I say: %s % (name, text))hello(text=This is my really awesome text!, name=Sam)and it runs just perfectly!Most people have told me to go for C++ as a C language, and C++ is much easier to run on Windows, so that is what I will probably go for.How interchangeable is C and C++?Are they like python 2 and 3? or bigger than that?What language will help me best in creating algorithms and good practices? Is that C? Because, frankly, a lot of my programming now is kind of trile and error. As I talk to people, learn more and read more, better modules I end up writing. It is so bad sometimes that I end up going back through my whole game and rewriting it to fit a new, smaller and more easy-to-handle engine.Although, Ive done that several times with the game Ive been working on since December and it is still a concept demo... I think though that I should just finish something with the bad code and put it out as a concept. If people like it, I can restructure it. If not, I can trash it and do something different!How have other people dealt with this problem? Is it a common difficulty? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186055#p186055 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? What I personally do is I release a game if its good enough, no matter if the code is messy or not. My coding stile would be considerde quite horible by some. What ive found though is that as long as your game works, and youve at least tested it, it wont matter how messy the code, the players will still play it. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186057#p186057 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Your methid is exactly what I do when im developing a game. What I tend to do is if im doing something in which im not sure the community will like, I will get it to a playable state and release an early concept demo. It mostly has an incomplete storyline, but what I do then is expand on the storyline each update so that everytime an update comes out, people can always expect something story wize unless I say it was just a quick patch fix. This methid appears to have worked out quite well for me, because since I started developing games because I always test each bit of story that gets added, I have only had to release a patch for my game 2 or so times. 1 for death match v2.0 when I was still coding in bgt, and 2 for snow race simpply because beta 4 had quite a few nasty bugs. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186058#p186058 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Here is a whole section onUsing dlls in python directlyextending python with C or C++cythonPyPyand there are all kinds of JIT compilers for making python code faster.But there is a reason why pythons real name is CPython, and Im not sure why that is, other than it was written in C and many many functions (xrange being the most well-known one) that are directly called from a C program.If you do the following, you can see some difference in pythons performance:import times = time.clock()for a in range(5000): if a == fred:print yes elif a == Jan: bsp;print Yes elif a == love:print No!print This lasted %s seconds % (time.clock() - s)Then run it as xrange(5000). You get a nice one second speed gain! LOLSo does good algorithm creation come with experience or would learning C really help? That is what Im facing now, how to make the best algorithms all the time! URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186059#p186059 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Ethin URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=186063#p186063 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Frastlin, yes, in C it is totally possible to import other peoples code into your project. that is the entire point of libraries and header files. Header files and libraries is the way in which C programmers import or include code others have written into their project. Thats precisely how my game engine works. I include the proper header files, proper libraries, and bingo I have got what I need to build a basic game ready to go.I know you are really new to programming, have little experience outside of Python, but this is precisely why you should explore languages like C. This would give you a foundational understanding of programming at the lowest common denominator , and will teach you better programming habits and concepts. C is a lot less forgiving in some cases than Python so you have to be a more advanced programmer to use it effectively.However, getting back to your point about including other peoples code to perform your random generation y ou would start by including the stdlib.h header, probably get the current system time using the functions in time.h, seed the random generator, and use the rand() function to generate a random number. It is a little more involved than in Python, but the whole point is that most C compilers come with a built-in rand() function and if you want a better random generator you can write your own or borrow a better one from a library. Including other peoples code in C programs is a simple process.As for the C verses C++ debate I wont take a stand on that argument. Myself personally I tend to use C++ more because I was taught C++ first, and was trained in object orientated programming. However, since I knew C++ I eventually taught myself C, and I think both C and C++ both have their place in a developers toolkit. Ultimately it comes down to preference for me.As for your comment about Unix being written in Python your not even close. The Unix kernel is written in straight C as is various Unix-like variants such as FreeBSD, Linux, and Mac OS. It is not even possible to write a kernel, drivers, etc in Python. Python is more geared for application development and scripting rather than the kind of low-level programming required for operating system kernels, drivers, etc.As for writing applications in C its not really that difficult if you know C well. Most of the applications for Linux, for example, are written from the ground up in C. A few are written in C++, some are written in Python, but Id say the lions share of apps are C.As for porting NVDA to Linux I seriously hope you are being rhetorical. The answer to your question is its not possible without an absolute rewrite from scratch. The way NVDA works and the way Orca works are totally different, and the accessibility of Windows and Linux are very very different as well. Youd be better off donating your time to Orca development and developing/testing it to make it a better screen reader.Ethin, please, chill out man. I cant help but think your explosion and tirade in post 57 was way over the top. I realize you like Pure Basic,, want to defend it, but your issue with Kamlorn is one of perspective. Its clear you two cant agree to disagree, but I find your reaction to his comments more irritating than anything Kamlorn has said.To put a different spin on this debate I think a lot comes down to how advanced someone is. How long someone has been programming. I myself have been programming in C and C++ since 1999,, thats 16 years,and thus I tend to favor those languages from my skills, education, and experience. Its natural that something like Pure Basic which was obviously designed for beginners isnt going to appeal to me. I get the feeling, reading between the lines, Kamlorn is something of a more advanced developer than you and Pure Basic is for him a turn off. The two of you cant agree be cause you are at different ends of the programming perspective, and see different advantages and disadvantages in the languages you are using.As for your challenge if I had the time I could easily write a game in C++ with all the features the DM Alpha has, and in a sense I have already done that since Mysteries of the Ancients was written in C++. I take your point about difficulty, but you arent proving anything by that challenge. To you writing a game in C++ is much harder for you because you probably arent as familiar with it as Kamlorn or I am so from your perspective C++ is really hard. I personally dont think so because I have been developing software, a lot more than just games in it, for roughly 16 years so I would consider such a challenge to be fairly easy for me personally.Finally, I found your over all message in post 57 to be really unprofessional and not a constructive criticism of Kamlorns points. I dont think he was trying t o convert anyone to C or C++, but to point out what he finds useful in those languages. If that offends you Im sorry but its your
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
2014-08-21
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Development room : GhorthalonTheDragon via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? I dont mind PureBasic all that much. In fact, Road TO Rage is entirely written in it and the only reason it dies so hardcore is because of my inability to code. So if were talking about audio games, there is way than enough room for making those. We have wrappers for many kinds of different audio engines that support different things, its easy to set-up, so if youre not looking for the most advanced language and want to get off the ground quickly, and, of course, dont mind the basic syntax, I think its definitely worth a look. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185803#p185803 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Unless someone cites a source about this ability to run Python 2.x programs on Python 3.3, Im going to have to say that this isnt true. I am basically certain, but if theres something I dont know, etc. The compatibility goes in the other direction; you can run some 3.x programs on 2.7.x via from __future__ import feature statements, i.e. from __future__ import division. But not many, and its only really a bridge to get from 2.7.x to 3.0 without having to do it all at once.What you can do is use the py launcher and install both 2.x and 3.x, at least on windows; it defaults to 2.7, as I recall. To get later, you use a special comment at the top of the file or a command line option. The launcher comes with Python 3.x, but you still need to have 2.x installed somewhere.Simple Python programs will in fact work on both, but critical methods on built-in data types were removed, i.e. iterkeys and itervalue s. The regular versions of these methods that used to return lists now return iterators. Theres a bunch of other changes involving unicode that are also not encountered by Python newcomers, and a bunch of other smaller stuff. The problem is that it is not necessarily true that all the packages you want to use work on both, even if your programs do. These features were changed in 3.0, not 3.4; moving the version later does, of course, introduce more changes from 2.x to cope with.Most of the tutorials are 2.x, though the library situation is improving. Pypy just added support for 3.3, and a lot of stuff is either already ported or unavailable but with alternatives (and some of them are now even built-in, like asyncio).@GhorthalonTheDragonYoure saying that you are a bad programmer. Have you tried other languages, especially those with garbage collection? Constructors/destructors, exceptions, and a GC can get rid of at least half the most common programmer errors: forgetting to allocate, forgetting to free, and forgetting to check if said allocation/initialization succeeded (in the third case, you usually get an exception, catching it at the point of the problem and not 500 lines later in a different file). I totally have to stand by my statement that Purebasic is C but prettier. I dont necessarily feel that OO is the only paradyme or the best in all situations. Classes, to me, are a handy way to get constructors and not have to remember to pass the first parameter to all the methods that touch the player. Do I use OO? yes, but only when appropriate. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185828#p185828 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
2014-08-21
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Development room : GhorthalonTheDragon via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Of course I do believe in things that make the life of programmers easier and I have looked at other options, like C, and later C#. And since I work with Android a lot, Java. But since this thread asked about PureBasic and I do not believe that PureBasic is a definite no-no, I gave my opinion. There are many ways to achieve a goal and of course Id choose the one that makes it easier and most reliable for me. RTR is already a couple of years old and the first of projects I attempted of its kind. So of course I learn. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185840#p185840 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Im trying to understand the mindset here. Purebasic has every single characteristic of a language Id consider nonproductive: lack of large community, lack of large numbers of libraries, lack of large quantities of external resources, and lack of features to encapsulate beyond the function and the struct. The proceeding is barely an opinion, but the following is not. In terms of a language, it provides not much more than C; before someone mentions built-in libraries, I can get all of the built-in stuff externally. Yet, as soon as someone says C, everyone runs screaming. Im trying to figure out how two languages that are essentially the same can engender two polar opposite opinions-especially since the one everyone says positive things about is not free and the one everyone says negative things about has at least 1000 times as many users, tutorials, documentation sets, libraries, etc. And then, as soon as I mention C++, in which you can program in exactly the same manner as Purebasic and still have built-in libraries for a lot of common algorithmic tasks, everyone reacts as though Ive got two heads or something.So shrug, I guess. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185857#p185857 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? I think the fact that pb is built for games?but dont you have to write a lot more code in C++ than you need to do in pb?Hello world in pb is 3 lines, in c it is 6 or so. I dont know if you need to compile pb, but that is also a consideration. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185874#p185874 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Hello world is not a great indicator of total code size. Excluding function calls, hello world in either would be 2 lines in c++ and more in pure basic.If pure basic is lacking many features sucha s classes, I can imagine pure basic code getting rather larger than c++. Code size is dependant on the type of project though. If you are developing a small GUI applicaiton for pure basic, it will be shorter. For c++ a small console rpg may or may not be shorter, it depends on the libraries used and the style of coding. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185876#p185876 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Hello world is not a great indicator of total code size. Excluding function calls, hello world in either would be 2 lines in c++ and more in pure basic.If pure basic is lacking many features such as classes, I can imagine pure basic code getting rather larger than c++. Code size is dependent on the type of project though. If you are developing a small GUI application for pure basic, it will be shorter. For c++ a small console rpg may or may not be shorter, it depends on the libraries used and the style of coding. In the end it comes down to preference, however if you are aiming for a mainstream proramming job for example pure basic may not meet industry standards. Recreationally pure basic could work, it comes down to personal preference. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185876#p185876 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Hello world is not a great indicator of total code size. Excluding function calls, hello world in either would be 2 lines in c++ and more in pure basic.If pure basic is lacking many features such as classes, I can imagine pure basic code getting rather larger than c++. Code size is dependent on the type of project though. If you are developing a small GUI application for pure basic, it will be shorter. For c++ a small console rpg may or may not be shorter, it depends on the libraries used and the style of coding. In the end it comes down to preference, however if you are aiming for a mainstream programming job for example pure basic may not meet industry standards. Recreationally pure basic could work, it comes down to personal preference. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185876#p185876 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Hello world is not a great indicator of total code size. Excluding function calls, hello world in either would be 2 lines in c++ and more in pure basic.If pure basic is lacking many features such as classes, I can imagine pure basic code getting rather larger than c++. Code size is dependent on the type of project though. If you are developing a small GUI application for pure basic, it will be shorter. For c++ a small console rpg may or may not be shorter, it depends on the libraries used and the style of coding. In the end it comes down to preference, however if you are aiming for a mainstream programming job for example pure basic may not meet industry standards. Recreationally pure basic could work, it comes down to personal preference.Both C++ and pure basic are compiled languages, meaning they have to be compiled to run them (at least with the interpreters and software used.) URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185876#p185876 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? I could not ever build a game in a language with no classes or modules LOL...In python I have a set of modules that are a mixture of other peoples code and my code that I use in everything.With my setup, calling a screen is 2 lines, catching the keyboard output is 4 lines, plus what ever other checks you wish to do with those key presses.import pygame_scripts as pgdef main(): pg.screen(short amount of lines test) #is the screen #now for key catching and game loop: play = True while play:key = pg.key2() # catches the keydown event of all keys as well as modifier keys like shiftif key[0] = escape: play = False #exit of the script. key has 2 items, (keyName, modName) so [0] means keyName and [1] would mean modName.How is pb or C+ + in relationship to this?With maybe 90 lines I can create a small fight simulator with multithreading and everything... URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185879#p185879 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? I could not ever build a game in a language with no classes or modules LOL...In python I have a set of modules that are a mixture of other peoples code and my code that I use in everything.With my setup, calling a screen is 2 lines, catching the keyboard output is 4 lines, plus what ever other checks you wish to do with those key presses.import pygame_scripts as pgdef main(): pg.screen(short amount of lines test) #is the screen #now for key catching and game loop: play = True while play:key = pg.key2() # catches the keydown event of all keys as well as modifier keys like shiftif key[0] = escape: play = False #exit of the script. key has 2 items, (keyName, modName) so [0] means keyName and [1] would mean modName.#and to run the code:main()How is pb or C++ in relationship to this? I heard C++ was OO, but is it this OO? Can you make it this OO?With maybe 90 lines I can create a small fight simulator with multithreading and everything... URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185879#p185879 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Regarding the pg_scripts, cant a key have more than one modifier? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185880#p185880 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Regarding the pg_scripts, cant a key have more than one modifier? Also if it captures every key shouldnt that be a list? Or is keys2 a yield function? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185880#p185880 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Frastlin, yes, C++ is object oriented, and it is possible to create a set of headers and libraries to do something similar to what you did in Python above. thats precisely how my game engine works. My engine is essentially a collection of C++ classes and libraries written in C++ which allows me to use object orientation to quickly access audio, input, timers, and build various types of game objects simply by creating an object and initializing it. After that the functions inside my classes do all the heavy lifting behind the scenes as it were. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185882#p185882 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? @camlorn people arnt screaming at you for c++, but as I pointed out here people will use whatever programming language gets the job done for them, not always the one with 1000 users. I myself have tried c++ coding, and personally found I wasnt ready. And remember. Everyone has diffrent needs. If I want to write something like death match or snow race, pure basic is my language of choice. If I was coding some really large bit of software, pure basic would still be my choice because it has the tools to get the job done for me. I could cair less if theirs a large community and how menny users. If the language dont get the job done, and I need to constantly refer back to a manual for functions, I aint using it. And your assumptions about pb seem to be quite rong. Their is a large community, and their are menny libraries for it at purearea.net. To everyone else. Creating a hello world program is easy, like this. MessageRequester(hello, Hello wo rld!) URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185884#p185884 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? @frastlin, you are wrong about things not working on 3.x when theyre ran in python 2.x. However, this only works on python 3.3 and earlier versions of 3.x. Python versions 3.4 ant later finalize the new language syntax, and 2.x applications no longer work. The toughest thing I have to do is convert things from 2.x to 3.x. Mosty it involves changing print text to print (text), and raw_input() to input(), but other times I forget the differences with if and for. Also, although it works, it... well, it throws many tracebacks, some of which make absolutely no sense at all. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185749#p185749 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? So if one is wishing to learn a language, it would probably be a good idea to install 3.3. I didnt know that you could run 2.7 programs in 3.3.I knew that 3.3 had a special 2.x interpreter that you could by running python -2 or something like that, but I dont remember trying to run my 2.x programs in 3.3. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185757#p185757 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Hi.Ive been messing with pure basic of and on for a while. It seems like a pretty good language so far.I do have a question about python though.Is it true that pygame and all the others work with a certain version of python? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185485#p185485 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Hi.Ive been messing with pure basic off and on for a while. It seems like a pretty good language so far.I do have a question about python though.Is it true that pygame and all the others work with a certain version of python? Id be interested in trying it, but Thats the only thing stopping me. So far pb is doing to job for me, but Im interested in other languages as well. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185485#p185485 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? For most things there is python 2.x and 3.x.Most everything is running 2.x and there is most support for 2.x. 3.x is supported by most things now though, it is just a little more difficult to find tutorials for. The difference between the two is very small. Python 3.x has a few more advanced packages that have been created for it and it has some more concise syntaxinput(prompt)rather thanraw_input(prompt)and there is better support for more advanced operations, but Ive never hit the 2.7 limits and 3.x has not become worth the trouble to convert yet (although it is almost to that point).If you are willing to work with an evolving language, use 3.x, but if not, just use 2.7.8. Here is an FAQ on the differencesThere is also full unicode support in 3.x, so people whos languages are not in ascii can write in their own language. That was the main reason for the change.Most 2.7 stuff will run on 3.x, but 3.x will not run on 2.x. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185515#p185515 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? pygame supports all the way up to python 3.3 I believe. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185516#p185516 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? In looking at pb code, Im kind of startled. In python the Hello world script is:print hello worldand thats all...To get a gui you need to do some installing of pygame which then requires that you write several lines of code at the top of your main script file, but:#The number sign means comment#Bring the pygame package and scripts into our project:import pygame#Imports all the local variables from pygame, Im not sure what they #all are, Ive never used them except in this little gui creation.from pygame.locals import *#initializes the pygame enginepygame.init()#creates a screen or gui that is black for us to use.screen = pygame.display.set_mode((640, 480))#Sets the title of the window (I took this script from my keyboard #test script because I have it up...pygame.display.set_caption(pygame keyboard test)#You dont need this, but it makes the mouse invisible I think...pygame.mouse.set_visible(0)Then that is all for the wrest of the game. Just those 6 lines of code. And with python you have so many packages that help with things, like accessible_output, a package that provides screen reader support for almost every screen reader on mac, windows and linux, you will have libaudioverse which is a sound library written by camlorn, you have pyinstaller or py2exe which makes .exe files for python projects, you have all kinds of web server stuff, you can even write a website in python rather than using _javascript_ (You just need to have the right package!).Learn Python The Hard Waywill take you through the process of printing hello world to the screen to creating a web version of a game that you make.Best part, it is free! (Well but for videos on learn python the hard way and libaudioverse), but you could use pyAl instead of libaud ioverse and you could not watch the videos, like me... So for the most part it is free. If you have a question about python you just google:How do I print hello world to the screen in pythonand tons of examples and answers to your question pop up.Where as when I type the same question into google with pure basic rather than python, I got 1 that said what I wanted...So why go for the less supported, less popular and less functional language when the more supported, more used, more functional language is just as easy (if not easier to use)?Ive even seen a whole OS written in python (unix based) and when you feel too restricted by python, you can jump over to C++ or C and write dll files that you can then use in your python program.So why go pure basic? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185437#p185437 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? In looking at pb code, Im kind of startled. In python the Hello world script is:print hello worldand thats all...I use EdSharp as my text editor and Ive configured my screen reader (NVDA) to read \t or 4 spaces as a tab, so python script reads:def function(argument):tabThis is a basic function with if statementstab if argument == hello:tab tab print Good byetab elif argument == bye:tab tab print Hello!function(argument=bye)To get a gui you need to do some installing of pygame which then requires that you write several lines of code at the top of your main script file, but:#The number sign means comment#Bring the pygame package and scripts into our project:import pygame#Imports all the local variables from pygame, Im not sure what they #all are, Ive never used them except in this little gui creation.from pygame.locals import *#initializes the pygame enginepygame.init()#creates a screen or gui that is black for us to use.screen = pygame.display.set_mode((640, 480))#Sets the title of the window (I took this script from my keyboard #test script because I have it up...pygame.display.set_caption(pygame keyboard test)#You dont need this, but it makes the mouse invisible I think...pygame.mouse.set_visible(0)Then that is all for the wrest of the game. Just those 6 lines of code. And with python you have so many packages that help with things, like accessible_output, a package that provides screen reader support for almost every screen reader on mac, windows and linux, you will have libaudioverse which is a sound library written by camlorn, you have pyinstaller or py2exe which makes .exe files for python projects, you have all kinds of we b server stuff, you can even write a website in python rather than using _javascript_ (You just need to have the right package!).Learn Python The Hard Waywill take you through the process of printing hello world to the screen to creating a web version of a game that you make.Best part, it is free! (Well but for videos on learn python the hard way and libaudioverse), but you could use pyAl instead of libaudioverse and you could not watch the videos, like me... So for the most part it is free. If you have a question about python you just google:How do I print hello world to the screen in pythonand tons of examples and answers to your question pop up.Where as when I type the same question into google with pure basic rather than python, I got 1 that said what I wanted...So why go for the less supported, less popular and less functional language when the more suppor ted, more used, more functional language is just as easy (if not easier to use)?Ive even seen a whole OS written in python (unix based) and when you feel too restricted by python, you can jump over to C++ or C and write dll files that you can then use in your python program.So why go pure basic? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185437#p185437 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Why go pure basic? Good question, and one which I will attempt to answer here. Because, it gets the job done. Im not intrested in shiny object orionted programming, nore in a fansy new sound library, nore any of that stuff if it cant do the job, and weather it can is entirely baste on the programmers opinion. And yes, I have tried learning python but could never really get into it. Severe storm steve here was intraduced to pure basic by me, and from what I have seen hes quite cumffy with it. Of course, if he decides to go to c++, thats his choice. So long as it gets the job done, users dont cair what your using, even if its autoit. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=185445#p185445 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? I imagine the Microsoft tools will remain free as long as they offer their DDK for free. Thats also a very cheeky way to get MFC 4.2 without buying Visual Studio, if you dont mind breaking the rules.I dont know the state of gdb on Win32, but it does appear some OSS projects are using it successfully for reporting crashes. I dont know whether this necessarily means gdb can read Microsoft check symbols output by MSVC though. Those, and remote debugging, are in my opinion the single best reasons to use Microsofts debugger interface via cdb. Of course if you are using MinGW then gdb is probably going to be the correct choice to debug your own code. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=184952#p184952 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Totally agreeable. I think that we should move away from this topic, though, and start our own topic for objective-C and lal of the GNU stuff. I dont want to create it (because Im compiling gcj!), but camlorn, if you want to continue this discussion, Id recommend we move away from this topic and start our own. Or maybe not? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=184673#p184673 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? believe it or not, cdb is actually a really good debugger once you learn it. Only super useful with the MS compilers and gdb is better, but once you learn it a bit it actually does an unbelievable amount of stuff. It turns out that the problems Ive had with it (C++ template and STL debugging) exist everywhere.I believe it is now integrated with the Windows 8 SDK or Visual Studio 2013. I do not recall which, but Im almost certain that debugging tools for windows has basically been merged at this point.Unfortunately, mdbg, the command line debugger for .net, was killed and removed; consequently, debugging the CLR requires Visual Studio. The Visual Studio debuggers exist in this weird place between UIA and MSAA and are known by Microsoft to be broken in terms of accessibility, so only jaws sees them. There are enough other problems with the accessibility of VS that its not worth it imho. Technically, the latest version s of cdb have a little support for the CLR, but I think its not even to the point of setting breakpoints. I dont use the .net languages because Libaudioverse is C++, and I can build a pretty good case for C++ over them in a professional environment these days (sharing between five platforms).Finally, heres an interesting tidbit. Windows is the only platform I know of that offers a full debugger API. Its a set of COM objects that, apparently, both VS and cdb/WinDbg use. I.e. you can, in theory, make your own debugger. This is a bigger project than it sounds because of lack of documentation, and not something Ive explored. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=184578#p184578 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? @camlorn, you are quite correct. Although, I prefer Objective-C, C, C++, Objective-C++, Ada, D, Go, and Java. I wont be using Fortran because I dont like its syntax. Add PB to the languages above. Im curious if I can find the headers for the debugging API. Im curious if I can cross it over to Mac OS X and Linux. It maybe possible. If you want to know how to truely make a debugger, get the GDB soucre code and look under the include directory for the headers, and then look under the src directory. Im not sure what the master source file is, but hey! Thats what exploration is for! URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=184641#p184641 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? I would not start with gdb to learn this. Debuggers are actually hugely complex, GCC is known to be a platform thats hard to develop for, and gdb has had close to or over 20 years of continuous hacking and development. Clang spun off them and shares no common code in part because of this, and GDB involves just about everything you could ever want to know about anything to do with your computer all at the same time. Think hundreds of man-years of development and so complex that they have actually admitted that they have trouble finding developers who can fully understand the GCC stack at this point. This is outside the experience level of everyone I know everywhere, including every professor Ive ever met. What Microsoft has done is exposed the API as a set of COM objects, and then called into it from elsewhere. I.e. there is a debugger, and you just need to write an interface on it.In actuality, the debuggers are usually made wi th the compiler. I.e. Gdb only debugs GCC executables, with very limited support for other stuff. The API Microsoft provides, therefore, only works fully on MS executables with the MS symbol format. You cant port it in any short amount of time: leaving aside the fact that its COM and Windows and that you dont have actual source code, youd probably have to either completely rearrange GDB into some new and interesting format or write your own debugger that supports the GCC or Clang symbol formats.My advice to everyone here is stay far away. There are enough options that work already, and itll just chew through your time like you wouldnt believe. The only reason Id do this ever is for pure fun, not because Im expecting anything at all to come of it. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=184647#p184647 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
[ a-t ] Stewie, I dont like .NET because it can be easily disassembled. For instance, I built a registration system in VB.NET, and I am able to disassemble it with the following command:C:\Users\Ethin\Documents\Visual Studio 2013\Projects\RGAUI\RGAUI\bin\Debugildasm rgaui.exeOf course, I can obfuscate the code, but obfuscators cost lots of money, and its just not worth it. Plus, MSIL is very easy to read.Example: keyrwzrd : void():.method private instance void keyrwzrd() cil managed{ // Code size 548 (0x224) .maxstack 5 .locals init ([0] valuetype [System.Windows.Forms]System.Windows.Forms.DialogResult correct, [1] string email, [2] class [mscorlib]System.Random Generator, [3] string name,
p;[4] string oldkey, [5] string oldpidn, [6] string phone, [7] int32 pidn, [8] string pnames, [9] string[] VB$t_array$S0, [10] bool VB$CG$t_bool$S0) IL_: nop IL_0001: newobj instance void [mscorlib]System.Random::.ctor() IL_0006: stloc.2 IL_0007: ldloc.2 IL_0008: ldc.i4 0x3e8 IL_000d: ldc.i4 0x270f IL_0012: callvirt instance int32 [mscorlib]System.Random::Next(int32,
int32) IL_0017: stloc.s pidn IL_0019: ldstr Enter the name of the person who the product will + be registered to: IL_001e: ldstr Key Replacement Request Wizard IL_0023: ldstrIL_0028: ldc.i4.m1 IL_0029: ldc.i4.m1 IL_002a: call string [Microsoft.VisualBasic]Microsoft.VisualBasic.Interaction::InputBox(string,
sp; string,string,int32,
int32) IL_002f: stloc.3 IL_0030: ldstr If available, enter your old product key. It must + be exactly as was given in your email that was sent to you upon complet + ion of your order, and must match the registration name entered and the + PIDN given to you at the start of this order. Note that, if you do not + enter your old product key, a new one will have to be generated, despi + te the name entered here, even if it is in our records, and may delay t + he generation and transmission of your product key. IL_0035: ldstr Key Replacement Request Wizard IL_003a: ldstr <br /
> IL_003f: ldc.i4.m1 IL_0040: ldc.i4.m1 IL_0041: call string [Microsoft.VisualBasic]Microsoft.VisualBasic.Interaction::InputBox(string,string,string,
bsp; int32,int32) IL_0046: stloc.s oldkey IL_0048: ldstr If applicable, enter the old four digit PIDN that + was used when you last ordered this product. IL_004d: ldstr Key Replacement Request Wizard IL_0052: l
dstrIL_0057: ldc.i4.m1 IL_0058: ldc.i4.m1 IL_0059: call string [Microsoft.VisualBasic]Microsoft.VisualBasic.Interaction::InputBox(string,string,string,
bsp;int32,int32) IL_005e: stloc.s oldpidn IL_0060: ldstr Enter a telephone number in case we need to contac + t you: IL_0065: ldstr Key Replacement Request Wizard IL_006a:
bsp; ldstrIL_006f: ldc.i4.m1 IL_0070: ldc.i4.m1 IL_0071: call string [Microsoft.VisualBasic]Microsoft.VisualBasic.Interaction::InputBox(string,string,string,
sp; int32,int32) IL_0076: stloc.s phone IL_0078: ldstr Enter your e-mail address. IL_007d: ldstr Key Replacement Request Wizard IL_0082: ldstr
; IL_0087: ldc.i4.m1 IL_0088: ldc.i4.m1 IL_0089: call string [Microsoft.VisualBasic]Microsoft.VisualBasic.Interaction::InputBox(string,string,string, &
nbsp; int32,int32) IL_008e: stloc.1 IL_008f: ldstr Enter the product names that you wish to order, e. + g.: Snow Race. Separate them with commas: IL_0094: ldstr Key Replacement Request Wizard IL_0099: ldstr
ot; IL_009e: ldc.i4.m1 IL_009f: ldc.i4.m1 IL_00a0: call string [Microsoft.VisualBasic]Microsoft.VisualBasic.Interaction::InputBox(string,string,string,
bsp;int32,int32) IL_00a5: stloc.s pnames IL_00a7: ldc.i4.s 15 IL_00a9: newarr [mscorlib]System.String IL_00ae: stloc.s VB$t_array$
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Googling, I see at least 2 free .net obfuscators.And as for other languages, like C++, its also very easy there in a lot of cases. Heres the general picture. While this is a bit harder, its only a bit; only one person need crack it, however:1. Start your program under CDB, the Microsoft command line debugger.2. Fix the windows symbol path (.symfix), enable line loading (.lines, may work in some cases if the developer is an idiot and embedded the debug symbols into the program), type g.3. Do whatever is necessary to get a demo over message, as this is a point in the program where the program has just made a check for activation.4. return to the debugger. Press ctrl+c.This is where it gets a bit tricky. The command of interest is k, to examine the stack. Also, l+* (if you can get lines) and l-* (to turn it back off so you see assembly again). Specifically what you get from here depends on how t he program was compiled. You can skip any of the windows functions. Youre looking for the last few frames in the executable. If youre fortunate, and you are in a lot of cases, you get function names; if not, its a bit of guess and check. You can disassemble with the debugger, though Ive not yet had occasion to work at that level. Youre looking for something that looks like an if statement, i.e. uses the conditional jump commands. Fortunately for us, we have one additional piece of information; we can allow the program to exit and see what happens, stepping through at the assembly instruction level. Whether this is helpful depends a lot, and its case-by-case. But it may be possible to just delete a call to exit. Youre rarely going on no information at all; you usually have at least a little bit.Finally, you patch the check to always be true, remove the check, or otherwise interfere w ith the check. Id suggest putting it in the activation checking function so that if the program checks elsewhere, itll still work out.I have not done this because why bother? I only know how because Ive been working with Cdb and similar for a good while now. But the truth is that all software cracking is a why bother? There is always, always someone smart enough to crack your software. It doesnt matter what you use. Ive never done a C++ crack, but itd take anywhere from an hour to a day regardless; depends on how much information I can extract and how quickly I can find guides. Someone who has probably has it down to a science, has written custom tools, etc...and can do it in an hour or three. Ive seen it done a couple times, i.e. BGT music/sound extraction (yes, really). It doesnt matter. if someone wishes to crack it, they will. And it only takes one for everyone . Youre not fighting everyone. Youre fighting the smartest programmer who would find it worthwhile to crack your software. Since you dont know who this is, best to think smartest programmer I know of anywhere instead. Even being tangentially aware of a way to crack the software means there is someone out there who can. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=184522#p184522 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Yep, MS debugging tools are a glorious gift from God. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=184523#p184523 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Yep, MS debugging tools are a glorious gift from God. Worth point out, too: CheatEngine has a cutsie little debugger embedded which is a little bit fiddly, but quite usable. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=184523#p184523 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Yep, MS debugging tools are a glorious gift from God. Worth pointing out, too: CheatEngine has a cutesy little debugger embedded which is a little bit fiddly, but quite usable. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=184523#p184523 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Speaking of cdb, I really need to get the debugging tools for windows again. I deleted them; maybe Ill getem again? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=184527#p184527 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Hi,PB 5.2 and up has a Dialog library that allows you to open windows and add controls via an xml file. The xml library can be used to generate this xml file in memory, on the fly.Rob URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=184055#p184055 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? I always have problems with openscreen when it comes to other platforms then windows. No matter what screen resolution ethin and I use the screen refuses to come up. Any help on that would be grate because ethin and I are intrested in making our games cross platform. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=184115#p184115 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
I find that the VB6 IDE just doesnt work out for me. Sure, Ive used .NET as well, but thats different. In C/C++, you have to include headers to do even the simplest operations, while in PB you hardly ever need to include things. Its all ready for use.In C/C+: Hello World is:C:#include stdio.hint main(){printf (Hello world! \n);return 0;}Thats like writing the entire stdio.h file in your C file and then using printf. Its just too much code.With PB, a hello world is:OpenConsole()PrintN (Hello world!)Input()CloseConsole()Its a lot simpler, see? No inclusion of a file probably named pbstdio.pbi or pbcio.pbi. Its all included automatically by the compiler. The only time you need to include things is if someones made an external include file which adds more functions to PB than it already has. Its got
80 libraries with over 400 functions builtin. This is mainly the main reason I like PB. Its got everything I need.
URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=183881#p183881
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Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Hi all,I just looked at PureBasic, because I have some ideas that are not games that Id like to make, especially for Mac. I know that I cant publish my PB apps to the store, but Id just make them freely available on my website.The problem I have is, do we really have to create forms (windows) manually when the sighted have it easier with the form designer? Heck, I have issues with visualizing levels when I want to design something in BGT. Plus, Dannie, do you use the PB IDE or do you just write it Notepad? A lot of the features in the app I could see like goto is great but what about syntax hi lighting, etc? a ton of those features I dont think would be useful. True, screen readers can speak colors of a word but does that help in this instance?Ah, I love the Show_game_window function in BGT because I dont have to worry about a window size. I took a Visual Basic class online once and the teacher couldnt even find an alternative way to create the window for his first program, so hes said something along the lines of Figure it out and get back to me. Gosh I hate that. It was the same thing with my last computer teacher, but yeah. Dont give me the answer but give me a goal with little help if its pretty obvious Im struggling or if I ask for it.How does a blind person create Windows for GUIs using the editor? If BGT had an IDE Im pretty sure a ton of people would be using it and Philip would still be asking for money. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=183891#p183891 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Regarding different languages:C++ is a lower level language. therefore including headers etc is going to be standard. C++ is basically entirely configurable. You dont have to use the stdlib, you could create one entirely yourself (good luck).Using pure basic, yes you can create a GUI. See the examples in the examples directory. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=183898#p183898 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
2014-08-06
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Development room : severestormsteve1 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? @Ethin, I completely agree. You got a thumbs up@Orin, as far as I know, the function youd best want to use for games would be open screen, and itd be like this:InitSprite()OpenScreen(640, 480, 16, screen name) As for windows, you will need sighted assistance with that. You dont nesesarily have to use the visual form designer, you can design it with code. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=183900#p183900 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? The #include directive doesnt include an entire library, it only includes a header file. The header file consists of prototypes and variables. Really, Hello world is the simplest program because it dedicates all the actual printing functionality to printf, which is actually a very complex C library routine.As to IDEs, IMHO Windows users have it bad, and Apple users have it better (but not great). So far, it seems your best option for self-built UIs is to stick with WinForms and use XML. I dont know of an easier way. For writing C/C++ you invariably need help visually placing objects, by coordinate, and then you build your resources by hand using IDL (you probably also need artwork to make it look really pretty). It sucks, but it is what it is. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=183917#p183917 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Here is the documentation entry for OpenScreen:OpenScreen()SyntaxResult = OpenScreen(Width, Height, Depth, Title$ [, FlipMode [, RefreshRate]])DescriptionOpens a new screen according to the specified Width, Height and Depth. InitSprite() has to be called successfully before using this command. The opened screen is created with 2 video buffers to allow double buffering, especially useful for games. The buffers can be manipulated with the FlipBuffers() function. ParametersWidth, HeightThe screen resolution, in pixels. The specified resolution has to be supported or the screen wont be created. ExamineScreenModes() can be used to get a full list of supported resolution. DepthIt can be one of the following values: 16: 65000 colors, fixed palette 24: 16 Mo colors, fixed palette 32: 16 Mo colors, faster than 24-bit mode, allows alpha blendingTit le$The title for the application which will be displayed when switching back to the desktop. (Windows only). It will be displayed in the taskbar, so its recommended to use a title related to the application name. FlipMode (optional)Sets the screen synchronization methods used when flipping buffers (also known as Vertical blank synchronization). It can have one of the following values: #PB_Screen_NoSynchronization : disable synchronization #PB_Screen_WaitSynchronization : enable synchronization (default value) #PB_Screen_SmartSynchronization: enable synchronization, with a CPU saver routine when the program doesnt consume all the CPU time (full screen mode only)Waiting for the screen synchronization allows the flip to be perfect (no te aring or other visible artifacts) because the flip is performed when the screen has been fully drawn (and when the screen spot is outside of visible screen area). This also link the flip frequence to the actual screen refresh, ie: for 60Hz screen it could have at most 60 flip per seconds, etc. RefreshRate (optional)Set the refresh rate (in Hz) for the new screen. If it cant be handled, then OpenScreen() will fail. ExamineScreenModes() can be used to get a full list of supported refresh rates. Note: on Windows, the refresh rate could be locked or forced by the video card drivers, so it could be inaccurate. Return valueNonzero if the screen has been successfully opened, zero otherwise. RemarksThe Requester functions cannot be used on screens created with OpenScreen. To open a screen area on a regular window, see OpenWindowedScreen(). See AlsoOpenWindowedScreen(), FlipBuffers()Supported OS AllI c ould print the docs for OpenWindowedScreen(), but I dont want to. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=183926#p183926 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? You might not need sighted assistance. You might want to for the end product, but.A number of GUI libraries have support for containers that automatically lay out controls within them. for example the .net libraries, such as microsofts windows forms thing, have flow layout panels and table layout. A table layout would let you put controls within table cells to form a grid obviously. A flow layout panel will move the next control to the nearest available space (configurable).Wx wigits has a similar feature, but table layout panel is renamed to grid sizer etc. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=183942#p183942 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Hi,Personally, I prefer bgt. And what dannys saying isnt entirely true. Ok, it doesnt have graphics for seriously. Audio, game. Its sort of in the name, isnt it? I think the reason dannys not a big fan of it is because of its serialisation, which, I will agree, is difficult to grasp. I have, however, used a variaty of languages, including PureBasic, python, PHP, html, ASP.NET, c#, and c++. Theyre all useful for different things. I wouldnt even consider making a low-level console applicatoin in PB, but I would in c# or c++.So, in conclusion, I agree with tward. It doesnt matter what language you use, as long as it works. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=183118#p183118 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? No, I didnt just ditch bgt because of its serialization. I gave it up simpply because I found some of the things I wanted to do in it wernt possible at least for me, im not saying for everyone. And grafics was only a very small part of that reason. But I do agree with everyone here. Its your choice, whatever programming language you use, whatever works for you. While we are on the subject of c++, I gave it ago but found it to be too complex for me. The same isnt true for visual basic 6, in fact I managed to develop quite a few test apps with it, but after a while I just couldnt stand the language itself and whent back to pb. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=183122#p183122 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
2014-07-31
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Development room : severestormsteve1 via Audiogames-reflector
Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? I decided to start this topic, because Im quite curious about something.There is a language out there called pure basic, which is actually the language used to code games such as death match and snow race, and also the one Im using, that is if I can get a patent for games. But that aside, the language is relatively easy to learn, the only symbols used being parenthesis, backslashes, and maybe a : or ;. With the right libraries, its capable of producing powerful games, dare I say even better than bgt. So, has anyone ever heard of this language before?I only started this topic in the development room because it has to do with programming. If any moderator feels that the placement was wrong, feel free to move it. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=182989#p182989 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? I have used it many years ago. I suspect I will be ignored, but just skip to Python or even C++ for that matter. Purebasic is basically C with a pretty syntax and a bigger standard library.Its been a long time since I touched it, so it is possible that it has changed (but I hear from others that it hasnt, so...). Firstly, its not free, and you have literally 100 free options and at least 10 that I would call better. Secondly, the higher level constructs are missing--garbage collection, classes, inheritance. Everyone I know who has used it has graduated to something better and looks back on it with horror.Theres two things worth saying here. First is what I think of as the PHP Phenomenon. All the sane programmers hate PHP, including most if not all of the major programming bloggers, everyone I know at my college who can actually program, and everyone I know outside college. P HP is pretty much universally agreed to be awful, huge articles have been written about why this is true, and people seem to have finally stopped using it for new projects. But PHP has two things: at first glance, its great and fun and helpful, and you only find out later that its awful. The second is that everyone looks at how much of the web it powers, and automatically assumes that its somehow this fantastic thing-in reality, everyone just bolted on stuff with no thought to the future, theres 5 or 6 ways to do everything and you have to know them all because who knows what todays project did (and a lot of them use more than one), and to really drive it home this is a web programming language that requires a server and yet it even has openAL bindings. My point is that a good programmer can work with anything. Having a game written in specific language tells you only that it is technically possible, and gives no statement one way or the other as to the actual quality of that language. For example, I see no reason I couldnt do space invaders in assembly, though it would take a while and Id never suggest that anyone try such insanity.the second thing worth saying is that, if you choose a less capable and less well-tested language, you never find out about all the nice things youre missing and why you wish you had them. Its like asking someone from the 1800s if they think they need this thing called electricity or that thing called running water. Until you have and understand the features, its not even possible to understand why youd need or want them. I rate Purebasic as the 1800s of programming: its C with nice syntax. Modern programming languages automatically manage memory, clean up stuff, provide very nice ways to reinitialize levels and such (a ton of the bugs in BK3 are because he doesnt have classes with construc tors in HSP), and a bunch of other stuff. Even C++ has seen the light now, providing first-class functions and a limited form of garbage collection (I dont exactly recommend it, but I do recommend it over PB).Heres the secret. I suspect that everyone is going to ignore or disbelieve this. The programmers who forgo or move on from BGT are likely to realize that BGT was hiding 30 years of literature, code examples, forum posts, and best practices from them. When you go with BGT, you can get going quickly. But you also give up the 30 years of almost every programmers attempt to make a game including, most importantly, the failures. The coding habits of this community as a whole tend to be 20 years outdated at least, and all the problems that come up here have already been solved by the sighted (a quick Google search can be very informative on most of them). The reason that we dont see a ton of Shades of Doom clones written in BGT is this, and not anything to do with the language.Im curious why you need a patent and why you think that Purebasic uses less symbols. C/C++ is a bit heavy on them, but everything else only really uses the math operators and the ; these days (and ; is super, super optional now). URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=182996#p182996 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
2014-07-31
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Development room : severestormsteve1 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? Camlorn, This forum is for sharing opinions, thus you have the right to do so. In your opinion, and the opinions of others youve talked to, pure basic is, um, questionable in quality. One of the main reasons I dont use c++ is because of its complexity. And yes, pure basic is more along the lines of a scripting language/programming language, and Ive seen c++ code and didnt know what the heck to do with it. Im sure you know more about programming than me, since you are in college and all, which is why you know a lot of programming languages. However, pb is easy for me to understand, and can do things well beyond the scope of what I need it for, so I dont see the point of learning c++, or pithon at this time. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=182999#p182999 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? I remember liking pure basic when I used it, but I wouldnt pay the $70 price to purchase it. I didnt delve too far into the language itself when I used it. I was unaware it lacked most standard concepts.One thing I liked about pure basic that I literally had a simple GUI program running in an hour or two.If you are looking for other languages that are easier, try python. Python I would rate as easier than pure basic, at least for simple tasks. Python comes bundled with a number of libraries, including wx wigits for creating GUI driven applications.I personally wouldnt recommend starting with a language such as C or C++. They are often more complicated and lower level, and the tutorials assume prior programming experience. I would recommend to avoid the basic languages however, as they are out of date and using older technology and programming concepts. Please please avoid Microsofts Visual Basic. I bet of you. You could try a language su ch as C#, but I would recommend that after you learn the fundimental concepts first. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=183012#p183012 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? I remember liking pure basic when I used it, but I wouldnt pay the $70 price to purchase it. I didnt delve too far into the language itself when I used it. I was unaware it lacked most standard concepts.One thing I liked about pure basic that I literally had a simple GUI program running in an hour or two.If you are looking for other languages that are easier, try python. Python I would rate as easier than pure basic, at least for simple tasks. Python comes bundled with a number of libraries, including wx wigits for creating GUI driven applications.I personally wouldnt recommend starting with a language such as C or C++. They are often more complicated and lower level, and the tutorials assume prior programming experience. I would recommend to avoid the basic languages however, as they are out of date and using older technology and programming concepts. Your past programming experience I believe comes from visual basic. I think you used visual basic for some of your applications, but some of the features of the language are painful to use. You could try a language such as C#, but I would recommend that after you learn the fundimental concepts first. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=183012#p183012 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? I personally am a fan of pure basic. Heres what I say. You pick whatever language suits you. Thoughs who have been following me and my games know I switched from bgt because I found I was rappidly out growing it. In fact if I hadnt switched to pb, a lot of the features you see in snow race and death match: project alpha wouldnt have even been their to begin with, but thats my personal choice. I still say bgt is a grate starting place if your new to audio game creation and you want to create games. And @camlorn, pure basic has changed a lot since you last used it. Its up to version 5 now, and they have added a lot of new features and made the language more stable. And I have coded in visual basic, though wasnt a fan of that stile of basic at all. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=183049#p183049 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
2014-07-31
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Development room : severestormsteve1 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? lololol!lol!I would personally like to know why it is that you believe I used visual, basic. Never have I touched the language, nor has there been any past projects of mine. As for pithon, I personally wouldnt prefer it, especially because of the indentions. And also, I might add, that you guys are against this language partly because its not free? And you actually would complain, about a $70 language, but not apose a $400 pro licence, as you had to obtain in bgt, which isnt, even, a, real, programming language?[[wow]]. And why must you guys try and tell me to switch languages? What if someone told you to switch from, say, pithon or c++ to pascal or vb6? Sure you wouldnt like that.Its okay to share opinions, but seriously? Dont try and convert people to other languages, pleas. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=183051#p183051 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? I can see why people would like PureBasic (love the name--pure, as in not like that awful old BBc Basic you might have remembered), just like I can see why people liked Delphi or FreePascal; its a nicer wrapper to the APIs than most mainstream languages, and its arguably the end result that matters. Still, yeah, Im with those in favour of investing your intellect elsewhere, closer to the mainstream, or to home. Im personally of the old-school and think that Modern language features are just bloat with no good justification, but each to his own. If youve got to be realistic about it, use a language that gives you what you need, and gives you a chance of further programming work in the future; whatever you pick will give you experience, and theres nothing like trying to do something useful with it to test its utility. Me? ANSI/ISO C for portable code, with Tcl for a hosted scripting environment. Never fails, but hardly suitable for a n ewbie, and barely suitable to audiogame development, so probably not the best choice for that unless you want to boil all your eggs at once. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=183059#p183059 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
2014-07-31
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Development room : severestormsteve1 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? I completely agree with you sebby URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=183060#p183060 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? I would like that. Ive used python, c++, visual basic 6, visual basic.net, pure basic, bgt, html, php, _javascript_ and lua to name most markup, scripting and programming languages from immediate memory. Ive used them for a variety of purposes. There isnt really one defined programming language used to solve all purposes. I wasnt trying to convert anyone to a language of choice. I am currently using python, which I noticed to be simple and easy to learn, so I mentioned that aspect of it. One problem with python is the line indentation, which I still find kind of annoying.I agree the licensing fee for bgt was incredibly high. I dont think theres anything wrong with paying for a language, I was just mentioning free alternatives.Sorry about the vb6 thing, I was thinking of another person with a similar name.My personal philosophy has always been to go with whichever language you want to, as I often find that people have a predefi ned set of standards they will rigidly stick to. Ive always found this a problem within the programming community, as people have a set of rigidly defined standards they will stick to. Just use what you want for any purpose, but take suggestions under advisement. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=183062#p183062 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? I would like that. Ive used python, c++, visual basic 6, visual basic.net, pure basic, bgt, html, php, _javascript_ and lua to name most markup, scripting and programming languages from immediate memory. Ive used them for a variety of purposes. There isnt really one defined programming language used to solve all purposes. I wasnt trying to convert anyone to a language of choice. I am currently using python, which I noticed to be simple and easy to learn, so I mentioned that aspect of it. One problem with python is the line indentation, which I still find kind of annoying.I agree the licensing fee for bgt was incredibly high. I dont think theres anything wrong with paying for a language, I was just mentioning free alternatives.Sorry about the vb6 thing, I was thinking of another person with a similar name.My personal philosophy has always been to go with whichever language you want to, as I often find that people have a predefi ned set of standards they will rigidly stick to. Ive always found this a problem within the programming community. Everyone seems to have a widely differing viewpoint. Just use what you want for any purpose, but take suggestions under advisement. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=183062#p183062 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? I would like that. Ive used python, c++, visual basic 6, visual basic.net, pure basic, bgt, html, php, _javascript_ and lua for a variety of purposes. There isnt really one defined programming language used to solve all purposes. I wasnt trying to convert anyone to a language of choice. I am currently using python, which I noticed to be simple and easy to learn, so I mentioned that aspect of it. One problem with python is the line indentation, which I still find kind of annoying.I agree the licensing fee for bgt was incredibly high. I dont think theres anything wrong with paying for a language, I was just mentioning free alternatives.Sorry about the vb6 thing, I was thinking of another person with a similar name.My personal philosophy has always been to go with whichever language you want to, as I often find that people have a predefined set of standards they will rigidly stick to. Ive always found this a problem within the pr ogramming community. Everyone seems to have a widely differing viewpoint. Just use what you want for any purpose, but take suggestions under advisement. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=183062#p183062 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
2014-07-31
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Development room : severestormsteve1 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? I know, that wasnt aimed direcly at you, stewie URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=183075#p183075 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it?
Re: Pure basic: has anyone ever heard of, or used it? I tried Pure Basic sometime last year, perhaps last summer, and had mixed opinions about it. Keep in mind that I am a fully trained and fully qualified C++ programmer so coming from my background and training Pure Basic was in certain ways a bit of a step down so to speak. That said, I can fully see why it is becoming popular among newbies, people who just cant grasp lower level languages like C or C++, because from the demo Pure Basic seems to be fairly simple and easy to learn, has a lot a power for a Basic language, and is of course cross-platform. I also noticed they were beginning to come out with tools like a simple but functional visual designer all which is useful for a newbie.While I would not personally choose to use Pure Basic for my own game projects I can not come up with any reason why someone else couldnt based on my personal experiences which are fairly limited in scope. However, that isnt the important thing to keep in mind here. In my exp erience both developing accessible games as well as a few products for the mainstream public end users dont care how you make the product. All they care about is if it is stable, works well, and the performance is acceptable on their PC. They could really care less what language you use so long as it works.Put another way when someone buys an automobile from a dealer they probably dont care about what makes the wheels turn as long as the car or truck gets them from point a to point b. Its only the mechanics who will argue about the technical specifications of the engine, the gearing, and other aspects of how the car works.So seen from that perspective my feeling about programming is as long as it works, can make a decent product, its okay to use. Do what works best for you, and dont worry about what other developers think, because ultimately every language has pros and cons. A lot of times there is no absolutely right answer, but only opinions formed by end user experiences and of course personal preferences. So for that reason I am not going to get into the old debate of language x is better or worse than language y.As far as Python and line indention goes I can see why many blind newbies dont like it, but the fact of the matter is you should properly indent your code regardless of what language is being used. One reason is if you wish to collaborate with a sighted programmer he or she will not be easily able to follow your code without the proper formatting. If you try and get a job with a company either for full time or as a contractor they will demand that the code is properly formatted. If you ever have a chance to use a braille display and can follow along with the code in braille the reasons for proper formatting will become immediately clear to you. For all those reasons it is a good idea to get in the habit of properly formatting your code anyway even if it doesnt seem that important to you now. What I like about Python is that it forces people to adopt those standards from the get-go, and even the laziest coders have to do it or else. For those coders like me who have been coding for years and know how to properly format code it serves as good practice, keeps us in the habit, so if we are called upon to write a program in C++, Java, or some other language we will automatically format weather formatting is required or not. People who are new to programming, havent already been formatting for years, will likely find it a bit irritating until it becomes second nature to them. Especially, when that newbie is blind and the formatting has no immediate value to him/her since they cant see it. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=183095#p183095 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
