Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. NVDA runs great on an SSD. My machine doesn't have one though. The Dell before this one did, but I had to take it back because of some hardware issues I suspected after the video driver crashed twice daily and the thing got hot enough to cook on. After buying a cooling stand for it, which solved the heat issue, but not the crashing issue, I then tried about 7 previous revisions of the graphics drivers and found a new BIOS / EFI update, none of which fixed it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/431629/#p431629 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. That's he setup I've got myself: an SSD on for my OS and for performance-critical applications (like games) but I've got an HDD that stoes my sounds collections and various other stuff that I access infrequently, or access irregularly. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/431626/#p431626 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @ManFromTheDark: Nothing wrong with them for data storage, they just aren't viable as a primary anymore if you want consistent speed. And windows 10 does absolutely horrible on just about every hdd I've used it on. SSD's are almost the new norm as just about every new decent machine comes with one, and it's no problem to get a small ssd for OS storage and a spinning drive for plain old files. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/431471/#p431471 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. Hello.I willl read through the rest of this topic in a bit, I only read the first post. But anyway I'm not getting these issues you speak of with NVDA. Intel Core I5 8 gb ram 512gb ssd. NVDA works well except for a few occasions like windows 10 explorer and stuff, anyway my CPU is usually around 5% to 10% average loadHey I have a tip for you, if you use a laptop, check your energy settings and set power plan to high performance. this fixes a lot of general speed bottlenecks. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/431456/#p431456 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. Hello.I willl read through the rest of this topic in a bit, I only read the first post. But anyway I'm not getting these issues you speak of with NVDA. Intel Core I5 8 gb ram 512gb ssd. NVDA works well except for a few occasions like windows 10 explorer and stuff, anyway my CPU is usually around 5% to 10% average load URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/431455/#p431455 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @Jack: Whats wrong with good old harddrives? They still work fine. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/431423/#p431423 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @107:First of all, you're right about something. let me correct my mistake:Thank you all, for your feedback. i do appriciate it. even though the topic got pritty much derailed, but many of you, did give some constructive feedback which is highly, greatly, appriciated.Now, as for what you said:Yes, you are right. Exactly why i wasn't choosing to reply to the topic in fear that the already going flamewar might intensify. Because, half of the community were either not ready to believe that these issues can be fixed (or even exist) just cause "the "majority" weren't facing them and the other half were more interested in derailing the topic and taking it where it wasn't supposed to goBut as i said, yes i did read the posts, and by what i said earlier, i meant i chose not to care about it as much because of the reasons i clerified above(i hope).But, i should have given credit where credit is due, so yes thanks everyone for the feedback. Will try to keep whatever yall said in mind.Now, as for coming up with a possible solution, that's why i asked for your help. and that's what i trust the devs should do(when the community fails).I'm disappointed because i didn't expect this kind of a backlash though..."instead of complaining, come up with a solution"I think that's the reason why i openned this topic in the first place...to ask for suggestions, to ask for help. in other words, to ask for a "possible solution".I fail to understand the cause of all this fighting and drama.However, i'd like to thank 107 for pointing out my mistakes. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/431403/#p431403 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. Alright, Arush. First mistake is you're using an hdd. I'm sorry, but the tremendous amount of lag that you're using is largely due to the fact that you're using an hdd, and I'm half convinced you probably have not manually defragmented the thing. Trust me, this is the exact experience I had on an hdd vs ssd switch. And get a load of this, I was experiencing tremendous lag, on windows xp! I shit you not, the reason I couldn't run windows 10 till I got an ssd, never mind the fact my mac ran on 8gb ram and a 2.7ghz intel core i5, is because of trying to run the virtual machine on a seagate hdd. It, just, isn't, viable, anymore. Believe it or not there are steep discounts on ssd's that you should keep your eye out for, and while I can't suggest the Transcend product line because those are for mac users, I do know that there are plenty of good sata2.5inch ssd's that, while slower than pciE x2gen3, are loads faster than any hdd. Seriously. There is no reason anyone in this day and age should be running their system on an hdd unless they legitimately cannot afford it, which is becoming more of a mute point now because ssd's are slowly but surely dropping in price. Come back to the issue once you've upgraded your drive, and if it's still lagging (shouldn't be lagging nearly as bad) then take a look at your programs, and uninstall any third party antivirus tools, and windows defender is sufficient enough. Besides, anyone knows that the best antivirus is common sense. Install noscript to get rid of autoplaying videos. Check the url that links lead to. Etc etc. Antiviruses only help to slow the system down, well except for Malware Bites as I've had good luck with that in the past, but it isn't something I personally feel the need to pay for.But while NVDA has had! performance issues, I would venture to guess that most of the major lag is because you're using a dated storage medium. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/431291/#p431291 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @103lets start with a few basics, shall weYou are greatly confusing paid products where technical support is actually part of the package, a service to you as a client, versus free products where people out of their own will go out of their precious lives, just like yours, to help you out. Since there was no obvious "I still have those problems" or "I stopped caring about this topic altogether" answer, but you still kept reading the topic, as you have just revealed to us, then that is why things turned out the way the did. Also, post 94 here said that you either were ... too busy because of whatever, or just wanted to troll, and unfortunately, you foolishly fell for the trap and conveniently ignored the first reason which was totally valid, or could have been, shouldn't you come up with such a laughable answer, which by the way could improve its spelling, if you wanted to be taken just a bit more seriously.As for fixing the problems and criticism (because this discussion has been for quite a bit now very far from its intended purpose)and this also applies to everything in your precious life outside of the internet:You can criticize all you want, you can be very vocal about it... but alas, that will never actually make things any better for absolutely anyone, yourself included.Some of us gave some suggestions, which you just willfully and happily ignored, and then as we got no really meaningful answer (we still haven't by the way) went to discuss exactly what was it that made open source a complicated thing and how it could be improved... so that people who were in similar situations could at least have some more insight and just chill out, but to no avail, so thanks.I would rather find fighting for chocolate a way more amusing, productive and tasteful thing than just logging in here only to be disappointed, wouldn't you believe? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/431287/#p431287 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. One more detail regarding my system, that may or may not be relevant here, is that I use that thing previously known as classic shellhttps://github.com/Open-Shell/Open-Shell-Menuas I simply couldn't make friends with the new windows look. Hopefully it will still work on the big may update. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/431263/#p431263 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. I had slowdowns with NVDA on Windows 10, but I couldn't remember now how I fixed it.I remember something about programs reading too much from the hard drive and making NVDA slower, but I don't know if it's the case for you.You could try to check in the resource monitor (windows + R and type resmon) to see if you notice something strange.Hope it helps a bit. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/431261/#p431261 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. As Jamie left the team, some of those interesting side developments also went with him, sutch as the wonderful nvSpeechPlayer. It's nice, that Datajake fixed the incompattibility with newer Espeak so now it's still working, but probably there's no further development of the engine itself at this point.So the situation is basically same as with music: there's some good band out there, it works well as an entity, but the main reason for it working is actually down to one persone. If that one persone leaves, the rest may still go on, but it's doing-being will never be as it was before.Of course we as simple end users have no way to change the situation "coders can at least", but as so many people state the obvious, there must be some truth behind it. So yeah, it's still very important and nice, that we have NVDA as a free screen reader being used by many as a main one on a dayly basis, but it's developing engine has lost quite a strong part of it's power. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/431250/#p431250 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @94 excuse me? ahem, we do have lives, you know. the world is far far far bigger than just the "internet". And, people have better things to do then watch some immeture old kids rage like 5 year olds fighting for choclet. ceriusly, i will not even begin, to say that this topic was purely meant for suggestions and help regarding what i faced, not what this has become. but no point, since this is usually how all topics end up here. Hence why, i was ignoring it, but now that @94 has taken a step further to personally question me:well there ya go. i gave you your answer. Also the fact that just cause ethin doesn't face those issues he continues to insist that we are still a minority when more than a few, people have stepped up to back us up amuses me way too much.Also, just cause we can't solve the issues means we can't question the devs? we can't lash out cause they have not been fixed for a long time? dude, ceriusly, the hell is wrong with you. there are thousands, of people who use NVDA and not just NVDA, look at games. what if i say, "no! no! you can't tell us about the bugs you are facing with PUBG mobile! cause you can't fix it! so you have no right to chrytisize!" i fear for the future of technology if devs start using that atitude anyways, a good day to all of you.regards URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/431212/#p431212 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @101, we don't just need that, we need people who will reply to issues who actually know what their talking about, and know what to ask. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/431196/#p431196 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. Hi.I wouldn't say NVDA's development has taken a dramatic hit, I just believe that it has slowed down a noticeable amount, with features taking a back seat to bug fixes. Case in point, I commented on an 11-year old feature request of NVDA moving to the previous and next clickable element on the page, and persons have been asking for it on e-mail lists. It is more useful now than it was 11 years ago, even 5 years ago. Still, no progress has been made, despite this feature request being so small. I'm not complaining, because I don't have the first clue about coding it, but I just wonder if things would've been different if Jamie was around. I've posted about 20 tickets or so, not a lot, but Jamie was the one that really commented and pushed fixing the bugs along a lot faster. If we, in the community, can find someone like that, that would be really great. Instead, most comments these days ask for things that are sometimes not needed to reproduce an issue. I commented on one the other day, where the opening comment stated that he couldn't find something in the Input gestures dialog. The other person asked for steps to reproduce and a whole lot of other info, without checking first. Of course, it was not there. Anyway, we need greater community involvement, with persons who will give their all to the project. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/431191/#p431191 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. Well, whenever you get programmers together, a lot of them have god complexes, and a lot of programmers are socially inept. You put those two traits together and things go south in a hurry. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/431143/#p431143 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. Running back to the comment concerning what question you should ask where trying something is concerned and how you should ask it? I said in post 47 that usually when someone comes along and says anything along the lines of "I'm not having such and such issue you're describing," It at the very least comes across as snarky. The flip side is that if you ask the question "What have you tried?" You can get "I've tried everything!"That can be just as snarky as far as I'm concerned, so both sides of the playing field are pretty screwed where voicing opinions and perceptions are concerned. The '"I've tried everything" camp could be saying they've tried everything they know, in which case those who are trying to help will then continue with, "Well, what is everything?" And that sounds just as bad, just as condescending.The way I see it is that if you're getting free help you have the right to your opinion but you should remember that that is all it is. If you're a paying customer you have a little more leverage because you're spending resources at your disposal to address an issue you probably shouldn't be having. Obviously, in this case, googling solutions for your problems isn't really an option, but it, like everything else on the list of everything is something to try when in complete doubt.And no, that doesn't discount what I said in post 45 and what Jade said in 78. There are some people who just need to bow themselves out of any conversation concerning issues people have with software because they are not exactly intent on helping so much as proving themselves right at every cost. If you really want to help, consider what you're saying; put into practice the idea that you have 2 ears and only one mouth, thus it does more good to start doing more listening than talking.Tip: try adding an I'm sorry to conversations in which you're atempting to help. You have no idea what a difference you'll make when you apologize, even if you're not exactly responsible. Obviously that doesn't mean you go saying I'm sorry for nonsensical reasons, but it really can lend some weight to the idea that you're trying to help.Examples, you ask? "I really am sorry you're having this issue, I honestly wonder why..." URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/431126/#p431126 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. hi,It is easy to do no recording needed. Turn on UIA support, and press A observe the skipping through comments. They aren't even anonuced.96, this is exactly what I was trying to say like for the last few years? Jamy's leaving the project had a dramatic effect. There are dramatically less commits now and work seems to be moving alot slower. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/431115/#p431115 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. Could someone post a recording of NVDA not reading comments or track changes?I am in a college class now, running the latest version of NVDA, and I could read comments perfectly in Microsoft Word a couple of days ago. Also, about a month ago, I viewed feedback from one of my parents where track changes were inserted and I could read through them all just fine. If someone could post a recording, it would greatly be appreciated. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/431109/#p431109 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @95, and that is exactly the reason NVDA needs more developers. There are so few nowadays that we can't resolve the critical stuff or even, hell, the unimportant stuff, or moderate to serious stuff and so on, because the developers are quite literally swamped with issues that 'need fixing'. And there are probably a lot of duplicates, so they have to go through those too. So that just slows everyone down. For a project that has less than a hundred developers I'd say NVDA's doing remarkably well. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/431096/#p431096 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. That's just it, when I worked with the one man team, Jamie with Osara, things went much better. When I worked with the community, my stuff is either ignored, closed or I get this BS with the crash dump. Oh and if its closed due to dupe, that's on me, it's my job to look, I failed to do it, so fair game to close it, but what's not cool is when I go to the duplicate, and the damn thing is sitting open for months with no resolution, or even acknowledgement except for other users saying they too are suffering this. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/431092/#p431092 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @89, So. Your first point about UIA being experimental. I knew this was the case. I was not trying to invalidate the fact that it is experimental would be a cause for not being able to track changes and read comments. I was mainly theorizing as to why, generally, it may not be available yet. I also was not trying to "invalid your poitnas as usual"; merely point out either corrections due to specific inaccuracies that you have listed, or I have theorized given the information I have.Second, didn't we already discuss the performance degradation issue? Why then must we bring it up again? I shall note though that I have suffered major performance hits with my computer (yes, my computer, not NVDA in particular), but that is only when word is opening a document or when I have two-four documents open in it simultaneously. I also usually am doing this on battery, so I'm running it at less than 30 percent maximum performance, which is a very deciding factor. (If I put my computer into ultra-low power saving mode, I'm running my processor at its lowest possible settings, and generally running everything at the bear minimums, so that is, too, a major performance hit, the fault of which lies with me. I do, however, do do that deliberately sometimes.)Post 91 was a much more mature response and should've been the way this entire topic stated out. As the OP has not posted since this topic began, I theorize that: (i) the aren't available for comment, mostly out of commission or indisposed for some other reason; or (ii) they deliberately started this topic to ensue a flamewar or some other destructive conversation.Second, I partially disagree with post 92. I have worked with some open-source projects and have filed issues with them. My most recent one was GLFW. I wrote to them filing an issue, told them what it was and described what I'd done to fix it. I then got a very detailed response that read:It's highly unlikely that glfw is modifying random parts of your program's memory, so I'd first encourage you to audit (sanity check as well as runtime check) any lines of code that change the player position to see if the bad values are being written by your code accidentally, or if the memory is being overwritten indirectly somehow.A few other questions to guide your debugging:Are the random values different every time, or always the same?Does the issue occur only when alt-tabbing, or any time the window loses focus? Is it in fact the alt-tabbing, or does just pressing Alt or tab trigger it?Your title mentions Release with debug info. Does this issue not occur in Debug builds? Or with debug info disabled?I hope this helps; let us know if you either hit a dead end or manage to find the root cause.So, yes, I agree that one-man teams can be difficult to work with (there is, after all, one developer working on the entire project). But you've gotta give that developer some slack or chip in some help yourself. (The issue I spoke of above is still occurring, but I am working on it and attempting alternatives.) URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/431076/#p431076 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @89, So. Your first point about UIA being experimental. I knew this was the case. I was not trying to invalidate the fact that it is experimental would be a cause for not being able to track changes and read comments. I was mainly theorizing as to why, generally, it may not be available yet. I also was not trying to "invalid your poitnas as usual"; merely point out either corrections due to specific inaccuracies that you have listed, or I have theorized given the information I have.Second, didn't we already discuss the performance degradation issue? Why then must we bring it up again? I shall note though that I have suffered major performance hits with my computer (yes, my computer, not NVDA in particular), but that is only when word is opening a document or when I have two-four documents open in it simultaneously. I also usually am doing this on battery, so I'm running it at less than 30 percent maximum performance, which is a very deciding factor. (If I put my computer into ultra-low power saving mode, I'm running my processor at its lowest possible settings, and generally running everything at the bear minimums, so that is, too, a major performance hit, the fault of which lies with me. I do, however, do do that deliberately sometimes.)Post 91 was a much more mature response and should've been the way this entire topic stated out. As the OP has not posted since this topic began, I theorize that: (i) the aren't available for comment, mostly out of commission or indisposed for some other reason; or (ii) they deliberately started this topic to ensue a flamewar or some other destructive conversation.Second, I partially disagree with post 92. I have worked with some open-source projects and have filed issues with them. My most recent one was GLFW. I wrote to them filing an issue, told them what it was and described what I'd done to fix it. I then got a very detailed response that read:It's highly unlikely that glfw is modifying random parts of your program's memory, so I'd first encourage you to audit (sanity check as well as runtime check) any lines of code that change the player position to see if the bad values are being written by your code accidentally, or if the memory is being overwritten indirectly somehow.A few other questions to guide your debugging:Are the random values different every time, or always the same?Does the issue occur only when alt-tabbing, or any time the window loses focus? Is it in fact the alt-tabbing, or does just pressing Alt or tab trigger it?Your title mentions Release with debug info. Does this issue not occur in Debug builds? Or with debug info disabled?I hope this helps; let us know if you either hit a dead end or manage to find the root cause.So, yes, I agree that one-man teams can be difficult to work with (there is, after all, one developer working on the entire project). But you've gotta give that developer some slack or chip in some help yourself. (The issue I described above is still occurring, but I am working on it and attempting alternatives.) URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/431076/#p431076 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
2019-05-03
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Off-topic room : giorgi elbaqidze via Audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. aarush did you try scan your computer? if not try it. Maiby it will helpfull URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/431073/#p431073 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. 91, well worded and worthy insight. Do you know if by any chance this has been discussed somewhere? because this kind of responses always steer me away from certain open source solutions, just like frescobaldi, for example. Liblouis isn't any better, now that there is just one guy trying to help out a lot and even though he is pretty knowledgeable, others who have the same or superior level of knowledge are never available, and that makes it just harder for things and or fixes to actually get done. This is probably the biggest flaw of open source systems, too. What you describe really sucks, but at least you have been doing things well by reporting thoroughly and as asked, and so on.Regarding add-ons, not sure if eloquence slows down things some because of its license checking and re-checking all the time, though it should not be that bad anyway. I know that some vendors with their customization play dirty tricks on every other program out there URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/431056/#p431056 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. 91, well worded and worthy insight. Do you know if by any chance this has been discussed somewhere? because this kind of responses always steer me away from certain open source solutions, just like frescobaldi, for example. Liblouis isn't any better, now that there is just one guy trying to help out a lot and even though he is pretty knowledgeable, others who have the same or superior level of knowledge are never available, and that makes it just harder for things and or fixes to actually get done. This is probably the biggest flaw of open source systems, too. What you describe really sucks, but at least you have been doing things well by reporting thoroughly and as asked, and so on.Regarding add-ons, not sure if eloquence slows down things some because of its license checking and re-checking all the time, though it should not be that bad anyway. I know that some vendors with their customization play dirty tricks on every other program out there... and some hardware influences this as well, what is your current desktop like? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/431056/#p431056 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. 91, well worded and worthy insight. Do you know if by any chance this has been discussed somewhere? because this kind of responses always steer me away from certain open source solutions, just like frescobaldi, for example. Liblouis isn't any better, now that there is just one guy trying to help out a lot and even though he is pretty knowledgeable, others who have the same or superior level of knowledge are never available, and that makes it just harder for things and or fixes to actually get done. This is probably the biggest flaw of open source systems, too. What you describe really sucks, but at least you have been doing things well by reporting thoroughly and as asked, and so on. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/431056/#p431056 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. OK, here's the skinny of what I have going on as far as software and addons. Software, no antivirus except defender, no malware programs. Chrome, I have firefox but only use it for the odd website which chrome will not handle correctly, which is growing less and less likely as time goes on. Addons. Apart from playing with unspoken a bit back in like 2016, I never kept it around. I have the following. Dropbox, eloquence, resource monitor, goldwave, win 10 app essentials, enhanced touch gestres, golden cursor, speech history, screen curtain, mushclient enhancements, and no beeps speech mode. I have also started out on a clean version of NVDA and only installed addons as I've needed their functionality, so there's that. Also, I can run without any of them and still issues will exist. Right now, it's perfectly fine. It's not as if I run with severe problems all the time.And yeah, the loss of Jamie is sorely felt I think on the dev team. I notice if I file an issue with NvAccess, it will either get comments confirming it, none at all, or just gets closed. If I file an issue on Jamie's Osara page, he gets back to me within a day and has steps for me to try, I do them, report my findings, and go from there.Also, I'd like to tell a little story about my most recent issue I've filed on NVDA. Now, I'd like to preface this with the fact that I no longer believe this is / was NVDA, and I catually probably should go close it because not long after I filed that, my computer had a major melt down and needed reinstalled. Anyway, I couldn't OCR most windows, because it would crash NVDA. So, I filed an issue about it. I had two files, the log, and a zip file containing the log and the crash dump. The first was my bad, I was going to upload the log and the dump, but it wouldn't let me, I'm not a developer, so I don't know the ins and outs of what github allows and doesn't allow, but no biggie, I'll zip them up and attach. I did, but couldn't figure out how to delete the plain log file. SO yeah, I'll take responsibility for that little bit of confusion, but I think thoroughness would have solved it for them. Anyway, I get a comment saying could I please provide a crash dump, and steps on how to get the dump. I explain I've already uploaded one, they come back with something like I can't open it though. To which I sais something along the lines of I can't either, it's binary data. Then funnily enough Jamie comes along and says that you need a windows debugger and it's fairly complicated, to which the guy says, oh I'm sorry, I'm ont that familiar with this developer stuff yet. OK, then by what authority did you ask me for a crash dump, and why have you lead me down this rabbit hole. If you didn't know how to sue the crash dump, why would that even be among your concern.I also don't file issues that say fuck this shit bitch I hate you. I fill out the template with all the information pertaining to the issue. I actually do like NVDA a lot, I've been using it for 10 years, it's been my primary for that long, and I guess it's disappointing to see it go down hill like this. I'd gladly pay for it if they came up with a reasonable model for pricing, and paying meant they could take on more devs to look into getting NVDA into the workplace, and getting some of these issues worked out. I'll be the first to admit my computer at the moment is a flaming pile of shit. Nevertheless, it runs fairly well when NVDA isn't playing up. I mean, for what it is, it takes forever to start up, but if you leave it on and go about your day to day, it's not terrible. It just isn't playing any Steam games. However, NVAccess's mission statement has always been about getting NVDA into the hands of people in 3rd world countries. Which, I think is cool as hell; but, if it can't run well on my system, and there are likely to be far worse systems in other countries, then how is that going to work. Within the next year or so, because I don't want another flaming pile, I'm going to be saving up and buying a decent desktop, and we'll see what it does with that. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/431052/#p431052 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. 88, If you make childish, ranting posts and further double down on aforementioned childish ranting posts, you should absolutely expect to be called out for doing so and not handled with kid gloves.In other words:Play stupid games, win stupid prises.As for NVDA's performance, I've ran it on hardware ranging from cheap tablet with 2gb ram up to 16 core workstation with 96 gb of ram. Performance for the most part was completely fine save for a few things.Task manager was universally slower than I'd like across all platforms, given that this is a well known issue I was not surprised about this at all.When it comes to AddOns it really does matter what you have installed. The wrong addons will completely tank responsiveness in some cases. Two of the biggest offenders for me were unspoken and an older version of the team talk classic fixes. Unspoken would sometimes cause things to slow to a crawl and then NVDA would start announcing everything 4 times in a row, playing the sounds and everything.The old team talk classic fixes used to slow alt tabbing and would cause NVDA to become super laggy in the team talk window.After binning unspoken and getting the team talk classic fixes updated a lot of my alt tab/windows explorer issues vanished over night.Antivirus programs, especially the big bloated ones like mcafee will completely fuck with NVDA. Remember that these programs are super intrusive, injecting themselves into your email client, browser and office package.Firefox was always known for being one of the more resource intensive browsers before your antivirus shoved itself balls deep into every part of the browser it was capable of, imagine what it's like now.If you have something like mcafee on your system, purge it with fire before it is too late.Like it or not, when it comes to browsers, chrome and NVDA are king when it comes to speed. Firefox is still nice to have around sometimes when NVDA is not clicking a clickable in chrome (I barely have this issue anymore).Also I can never give up the combination of waterfox and down them all.That's about it then...Do you have to do a bit of housekeeping to keep NVDA performing well? Yeah I don't deny it at all. JAWS was more a set it and forget it kind of thing. Then again, JAWS used to break my NVIDIA drivers every time I upgraded my graphics card, leaving me capable of displaying everything in one single resolution:640 x480 with 16 colours.I'll... take the housekeeping any day. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430992/#p430992 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. So Ethin, you're trying to invalidate my claims as usual. Did it ever occur to you that the inability to read comments and track changes in NVDA was one of the main reason UIA is experimental? It is a well documented issue on github if you took the trouble to look.Also, if NVDA's model of information retrieval is so superior, why do many people have such massive performance degradation esspecially in office, while in Jaws this does not occur? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430977/#p430977 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. ok, I have read through most of the posts on this topic, and while I am not a primary NVDA user, I am going to say something that I feel needs saying:Many of you could have worded your posts much better, a lot of you were being quite rude to the original poster of this topic, calling them winy, childish, etc. Is that really going to help matters?Mods: I urge you to look at this topic and issue warnings/bans where needed. I have already reported one of the posts on this topic, and do not regret doing so. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430974/#p430974 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. right, agree that no one of the complainers have posted again, not even the original poster with steps or ways of reproducing things... so help us help you. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430962/#p430962 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @84-85, fair enough. I agree more with 84 than with 85 but understand where 85 is coming from. Though if its my claims that 82 is talking about, his point really isn't valid since 99 percent of my claims were valid, though the "have you tried"/"what have you tried" is more of an opinion-based thing than anything else, IMO. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430950/#p430950 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @84-85, fair enough. I agree more with 84 than with 85 but understand where 85 is coming from. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430950/#p430950 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. I disagree that asking what have you tried, as opposed to have you tried this, makes much of a difference. One of the first things you learn if you intend to do any sort of tech support as a career is that the people who are writing/calling in with their issues already have their hackles raised. They're already going to be feeling foolish, which can translate to defensiveness, since most people are aware of the "have you tried turning it off and on again?" trope by now. There isn't much you can do about it except be a good customer service rep. That requires a healthy measure of empathy, and a dash of good BS-ing skills. Not everyone can do it, and not everyone is even in a place where they can receive what you're putting on the table anyway, to say nothing of the fact that tech support companies often have to follow scripts to the letter, but I digress. The thing is, we're not paid employees here, we can only offer our experiences and/or advice. Calling people out for that is absurd. I've never understood why what screen reader an individual uses is such a hot button issue, it's practically on par with evangelism, and it's absolutely ridiculous.Edit:@84, very well said, you and I were clearly thinking the same thing as I was typing this post. Thumbs up to you. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430949/#p430949 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. I disagree that asking what have you tried, as opposed to have you tried this, makes much of a difference. One of the first things you learn if you intend to do any sort of tech support as a career is that the people who are writing/calling in with their issues already have their hackles raised. They're already going to be feeling foolish, which can translate to defensiveness, since most people are aware of the "have you tried turning it off and on again?" trope by now. There isn't much you can do about it except be a good customer service rep. That requires a healthy measure of empathy, and a dash of good BS-ing skills. Not everyone can do it, and not everyone is even in a place where they can receive what you're putting on the table anyway, to say nothing of the fact that tech support companies often have to follow scripts to the letter, but I digress. The thing is, we're not paid employees here, we can only offer our experiences and/or advice. Calling people out for that is absurd. I've never understood why what screen reader an individual uses is such a hot button issue, it's practically on par with evangelism, and it's absolutely ridiculous. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430949/#p430949 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. Such a big difference between saying what have you tried already VS suggesting individual things to try. I don't even know why somebody should be offended with such minor things, but oh well, we aren't as friendly as we used to be. Also, why generalize in such a silly way, that is, NVDA users VS Jaws users. I use both so in which category do I fit? There's no NVDA users do this and Jaws users do that, because we are all different and using a screen reader is not something that defines our personalities, thank you very much. To be honest, I don't need to defend NVDA, it's a forum and we just state our experiences with the software. What I do however need to do is clear up misconceptions which are very frequent and often happen. Just for an example, if somebody who never used NVDA read the first post individually and nothing else, do you think they would even bother? Based on the attitudes of some people, NVDA is totally stupid, and that is way more offending then people saying they do not experience your issues. If somebody told me I don't experience your issues, and it was the majority telling me so, I would not be offended, rather I would be really glad for them and would try various things to fix it for me. If I can't, I will obviously look for people who can reproduce my issue. Then, ideally something should be done to debug it, starting by sending logs, giving detailed steps to reproduce, which has not even been done here. All we know is that NVDA lags a lot and has performance issues, nothing else. We don't know which addons are installed / enabled, we don't know what could have happened so we have to guess many things. Similarly to you saying that it's more appropriate to ask what have you tried to fix it, don't you think it can be more appropriate to just say those things when you are reporting the issue? Honestly it's just making a big deal for no reason.Edit: post 82 wins the prize of the most constructive post in the topic. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430948/#p430948 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. Such a big difference between saying what have you tried already VS suggesting individual things to try. I don't even know why somebody should be offended with such minor things, but oh well, we aren't as friendly as we used to be. Also, why generalize in such a silly way, that is, NVDA users VS Jaws users. I use both so in which category do I fit? There's no NVDA users do this and Jaws users do that, because we are all different and using a screen reader is not something that defines our personalities, thank you very much. To be honest, I don't need to defend NVDA, it's a forum and we just state our experiences with the software. What I do however need to do is clear up misconceptions which are very frequent and often happen. Just for an example, if somebody who never used NVDA read the first post individually and nothing else, do you think they would even bother? Based on the attitudes of some people, NVDA is totally stupid, and that is way more offending then people saying they do not experience your issues. If somebody told me I don't experience your issues, and it was the majority telling me so, I would not be offended, rather I would be really glad for them and would try various things to fix it for me. If I can't, I will obviously look for people who can reproduce my issue. Then, ideally something should be done to debug it, starting by sending logs, giving detailed steps to reproduce, which has not even been done here. All we know is that NVDA lags a lot and has performance issues, nothing else. We don't know which addons are installed / enabled, we don't know what could have happened so we have to guess many things. Similarly to you saying that it's more appropriate to ask what have you tried to fix it, don't you think it can be more appropriate to just say those things when you are reporting the issue? Honestly it's just making a big deal for no reason. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430948/#p430948 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. And another thing, persons may or may not be aware of this, but one of NVDA's key lead developers is no longer overseeing the day-to-day development of the screen reader. He put in a high level of work into the project, and he has not been replaced. As unfortunate as this was, time goes on, and the project is staying afloat with Mick at the main controls. Does this mean that NVDA has suffered because of it? Quite possibly. This may include addition of new features (speech refactor anyone?) as well as performance issues that persons may indeed be facing. This is why I'm hoping that community involvement and engagement can be greatly increased. I have seen where development has slowed slightly, which worries me a little bit. Does this mean NVDA is dying, not really. It means issues may be likely to be solved later than they would if he was there. Still, I just hope the community, in any way it can, seeks to help the product to be the best it can be, because maybe some day, Mick could too walk away. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430945/#p430945 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. um, again, you're talking with no basis for what you're saying. Jesus, just get off it already, you've already lost, your claims are not valid, sorry, bye bye. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430944/#p430944 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @80, fully agree with you. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430942/#p430942 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. Hi.Nott seeking to be dragged in the very immature but somewhat entertaining war of words, but I thought I'd comment on something here. So, @aarush, the opening poster, I have to say how bad I feel for you in your situation. I mean, and I hope it's not a crime for me to say, but I've never really faced something like this with NVDA, but can always understand the frustration of losing one's work. With that being said, in the opening posts of this topic, I saw persons asking if the poster have tried to do some things, such as disabling add-ons. No indication of that was made, but instead the poster stated that add-ons were cleaned up. There are some very old add-ons out there, such as NVDA Themes Manager and others which are popular, that are so old, they're basically unusable at this point. Anyway, correct me if I'm wrong, but has the opening poster stated which programs are causing these troubles? Again, I'm not here to discount his/her account, but he/she hasn't posted in a while, so I'm wondering.On the topic of NVDA's development, what exactly does NVDA need to catch up to? Persons do understand that NVDA is just here as a free alternative to expensive products. In that vein, you really shouldn't expect it to be as feature rich as it's overpriced and mostly out of reach for the common blind person, competitor. Not bashing JAWS, just Vispero. Anyway, evidence is there, however, that JAWS has, especially over the last year, borrowed some features from NVDA and other free screen readers. Hearing spelling errors as you type stands out, along with not hearing Tab. I can bet my bottom dollar that JAWS saw the competition's implementation, liked it and wanted to better it, which they have done.I say all that to say, how then can you call it 'shit'? Well, clearly there is gold in that shit pile. How then can you say that it needs to catch up, if it's helping the competition? Helping the poorest and neediest persons to use a computer? If you can afford JAWS, and you find that NVDA is not meeting your needs, then why not switch over? Why bash the project, the developers, the community that is trying to help you, trying to sort out your issues? Most persons are also just saying things without actually providing a log, without steps to reproduce, without any evidence. Instead, they feel offended when persons try and diagnose their issues, and try to help? We all want NVDA to thrive, to be the best it can be. That starts with reporting the issues to github, and commenting on an issue where necessary. Providing logs, STRs, disabling add-ons first, which really should be the first step, and you can do it right from the exit dialog. That also requires persons read the User guide, in fact. Come off your high horses and help the community, or just shut up...or at least, go use JAWS. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430941/#p430941 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @77, I do need to try my document wit comments again, see if I can get them to work. I had forgotten to try the add-ons disabled thing when I opened that document... need to try that asap.@78, I disagree that it 'dampens his concerns'. I've been in tech calls that ask those questions, and ones that ask "what have you tried?". In both, I didn't feel like my concerns had been ignored or dampened. I knew that the technission was doing his best to assess what I had tried already. Asking "have you tried..." vs. "What have you tried..." is pretty much the same thing and results in the same end. Telling people that we don't suffer that issue is simply a way of informing them that their problem is not universal. How else would you like us to tell them that this problem is not universal and is specific to that particular person? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430934/#p430934 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @77, I do need to try my document wit comments again, see if I can get them to work. I had forgotten to try the add-ons disabled thing when I opened that document... need to try that asap.@78, I disagree that it 'dampens his concerns'. I've been in tech calls that ask those questions, and ones that ask "what have you tried?". In both, I didn't feel like my concerns had been ignored or dampened. I knew that the technission was doing his best to assess what I had tried already. Asking "have you tried..." vs. "What have you tried..." is pretty much the same thing and results in the same end. Telling people that we don't suffer that issue is simply a way of informing them that their problem is not universal. How else would you like us to tell them that this problem is not universal and is specific to that particular person? Or, to put it another way, how would you like us to tell them that we're not suffering the problem that they're having? Telling people "no, we don't suffer this problem" isn't meant in a condescending manner, and it (technically) is not our fault if you choose to interpret it as such. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430934/#p430934 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @77, I do need to try my document wit comments again, see if I can get them to work. I had forgotten to try the add-ons disabled thing when I opened that document... need to try that asap.@78, I disagree that it 'dampens his concerns'. I've been in tech calls that ask those questions, and ones that ask "what have you tried?". In both, I didn't feel like my concerns had been ignored or dampened. I knew that the technission was doing his best to assess what I had tried already. Asking "have you tried..." vs. "What have you tried..." is pretty much the same thing and results in the same end. Telling people that we don't suffer that issue is simply a way of informing them that their problem is not universal. How else would you like us to tell them that this problem is not universal and is specific to that particular person? Or, to put it another way, how would you like us to tell them that we're not suffering the problem that they're having?So, no, I don't think a new "ice age" is coming. Diagnostic assessments are always different, depending on either who you ask or who responds. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430934/#p430934 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @77, I do need to try my document wit comments again, see if I can get them to work. I had forgotten to try the add-ons disabled thing when I opened that document... need to try that asap.@78, I disagree that it 'dampens his concerns'. I've been in tech calls that ask those questions, and ones that ask "what have you tried?". In both, I didn't feel like my concerns had been ignored. I knew that the technission was doing his best to assess what I had tried already. Asking "have you tried..." vs. "What have you tried..." is pretty much the same thing and esults in the same end. Telling people that we don't suffer that issue is simply a way of informing them that their problem is not universal. How else would you like us to tell them that this problem is not universal and is specific to that particular person? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430934/#p430934 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @77, I do need to try my document wit comments again, see if I can get them to work. I had forgotten to try the add-ons disabled thing when I opened that document... need to try that asap. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430934/#p430934 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. I feel that some of you may have skimmed right past the point I made here.What I said was that starting with the "it's working for me" statement is the main problem. When you -then follow up by asking basic questions, it smacks of condescension.You know what the best question is for someone who genuinely wants to help? "What have you tried?" or other such things. Rather than offering straight advice, diagnose the level of experience, problem or attempts first. Find out what the deal is before you just start throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks.So, woman in the hardware store. She goes to a salesman, says she's having a problem with her toilet. If he says "Well, I have never heard of that before. Have you tried a plunger?", she's probably going to be annoyed. If he just flat-out asks, "Have you tried plunging the toilet?"...same deal, basically, but not quite as bad. Best thing he can ask is something like, "Right, what have you tried to fix it yourself? Let's start there." This lets her say "I tried my plunger but that didn't help. I tried Drano but that didn't help either. There must be something good and stuck. I think maybe my three-year-old did it." Then the salesman has a better idea of what's going on. He says "Well if there's a hard object down there, a plumbing snake might help. Or you may need an actual plumber." and you go from there.A lot of people in this thread started with the "it's not happening to me" thing. That's fine, in a bubble. You are free to state your experiences and I'm never going to try and dump on you for that. But the original poster came in here very upset. Why tell them that you're not having the same issues? What good does that serve?I'll tell you what it actually does. Every voice raised saying "I don't have this issue, have you tried..." is actually diminishing the impact of this guy's valid concerns. Like it or not, he's having problems. Why are you trying to signal-dampen his issue?And when I said this happens more with NVDA users than not, I meant it. I feel like this signal-dampening thing happens a lot. And I feel it is innately defensive, the sort of thing one does when one feels that something dear to them is being threatened or bashed in some way. And okay, yeah, in this case it was. It's even possible that NVDA is not the sole or even the primary culprit. But it's the assumptive nature of what was said that caused me to come in here. And it's why there's a new ice age coming. I agreed with Ironcross. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430932/#p430932 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. Comments do not work, in which office version? Ah sorry, probably too advanced user to provide that silly piece of information. Have you tried Word without UIA support and do you still experience such bad performance? Because in my experience it's not that bad at all with the latest version, and you know, UIA support is not the only thing they did to improve the performance, that's just work in progress. Whichever issue you experience, the first thing to try is disable all addons and see if it still happens. You can rage all you want about it, but that's the case with every software allowing scripting of some sorts. Almost every developer will ask you to disable all addons / scripts / extentions and see if the issue can still be reproduced, unless of course you are an extension developer and are reporting a specific bug. It's actually really sad that such topics which can be discussed really constructively cause rage in some people instead of just normally saying, yes I tried it and the issue still happens. There's no need to call neither NVDA nor Jaws shitty, just don't use what you don't like and move on. Both of them have their advantages, but people feel the need to put down a product for no reason. If you actually go ahead and constructively write it's disadvantages like ethyn did with the display driver, that's what I like to read and isn't even insulting, just straight facts. Believe me, I got frustrated with the performance of both screen readers several times and I know how it feels. You would rather say that Windows is not accessible at all in such a state. However, do us all a favour and do not post in such moments. Take a bit of time to look into the issue, calm down and then later write about it. Everybody is there to help with an issue if you have one, but you must be equally ready to help us if you want it solved. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430929/#p430929 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. Ok, lets see.Running a 2gb ram laptop here, using Nvda and Firefox Nightly. While I write this, i have other things open, including teamtalk and another Firefox tab playing audio, and guess what? No lag at all.Despite the less than perfect laptop, the only issue I have with Nvda from time to time! is when it freezes and a restart is needed to fix it, nothing more.So while I do understand you others that have problems with the software, screaming and raging like children is not the way to get your problems fixed.Take a look at your setup, check other software you have installed to see if something is interfering with Nvda, check the addons, talk to the community that develops the software and see what can be done about your issues, it's incredible that those things need to be even said, one would think most all of us who post here are mature enough to see the obvious and right way to do things, but oh well.Oh and a tip for firefox: Disable multiprocess and play around with the flags on about:config, you'll be surprised. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430928/#p430928 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @73, Nidsa07 already pointed out why people give simplistic advice before going and immediately thinking that its a problem with the program. I shall not reiterate it in this post.Second, JAWS does not just rely on UIA and iAccessible2 for accessibility as NVDA does. JAWS relies on three components: the video intercept driver, UIA, and MSAA. (It may also rely on IAccessible2 and other APIs that I don't know of.) Either way, JAWS is capable of directly intercepting what is being drawn to the screen and where its being drawn. Scripts (a.k.a. hacks) can therefore be implemented to detect what's being drawn and, using that information, can deliver that information to the user. NVDA does not do this, for obvious reasons. I have no doubt that JAWS's codebase has surpassed the "unmaintainable" state and the only reason that its still maintained is because the developers know the code so well.Now, before you come to the (understandable, but false) conclusion that JAWS is superior in this matter, it is not. In fact, the methods that I believe JAWS uses is in fact inferior to what NVDA does. JAWS relies on what the graphics card is drawing to get textual information. This means it has to do a lot more internal computation in order to figure out what exactly is important and what isn't. Add to that the UIA layer and you've got yourself a pretty big mess. Add MSAA and (optionally) IAccessible2 and you've got yourself... something indescribable. NVDA takes this concept of bloated accessibility and simplifies it. It relies on UIA, MSAA and IAccessible2 only when each technology is needed. If I'm not mistaken, NVDA prioritizes accessibility information: if UIA's information is better than IAccessible2, it runs with what UIA gives, and so on. This greatly simplifies not only the collection and maagement of accessibility information, but it also makes it much easier to hook into other accessibility APIs when its time to add them.These are theories, however. I cannot attest that these claims are actually accurate, as I am not an NVDA or JAWS developer (thank god I'm not a JAWS dev, I'd hate that). However, its a pretty good assumption and would be the logical way to go about it.You say that "many people are reporting this." Are they annotating other issues or creating new ones. If they're creating new issues, then no wonder NVAccess is so slow-- they have to sort through *every* issue, assign it, and close them and so on. A common git hub practice when reporting issues (I don't understand why people wouldn't do this) is to find the issue about the subject in question, read through it to se if there are suggestions you have not considered, and then, if you have exhausted all suggestions in the issue, you indicate that you, too, are suffering the issue. If people wouldn't open thousands of issues about the same issue and follow common git hub practices, I doubt NVAccess would be so slow-moving, nor do I think they'd have so many issues open.@74, did I say that you were spamming them with issues? No, I did not. I said hat you most likely would. Please read my post more carefully instead of going on a tangent at the slightest movement. And I'll take the "stupid" part of your last sentence: none of us who said we weren't having these issues assumed (at least, I didn't) that you were stupid for 'having these issues'. We point out simplistic things as a diagnostic device. It is quite literally the first thing any organization or group of developers will tell you to do when you go to them with a problem. Do not assume, then, that that organization or group of developers thinks you are stupid. That is such an erroneous assumption as to be laughable. It is a basic diagnostic tool to ensure that the issue is not a user error and is in fact a code-related issue. Whether you take it as condescension is extremely weird, IMO. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430927/#p430927 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @73, Nidsa07 already pointed out why people give simplistic advice before going and immediately thinking that its a problem with the program. I shall not reiterate it in this post.Second, JAWS does not just rely on UIA and iAccessible2 for accessibility as NVDA does. JAWS relies on three components: the video intercept driver, UIA, and MSAA. (It may also rely on IAccessible2 and other APIs that I don't know of.) Either way, JAWS is capable of directly intercepting what is being drawn to the screen and where its being drawn. Scripts (a.k.a. hacks) can therefore be implemented to detect what's being drawn and, using that information, can deliver that information to the user. NVDA does not do this, for obvious reasons. I have no doubt that JAWS's codebase has surpassed the "unmaintainable" state and the only reason that its still maintained is because the developers know the code so well.Now, before you come to the (understandable, but false) conclusion that JAWS is superior in this matter, it is not. In fact, the methods that I believe JAWS uses is in fact inferior to what NVDA does. JAWS relies on what the graphics card is drawing to get textual information. This means it has to do a lot more internal computation in order to figure out what exactly is important and what isn't. Add to that the UIA layer and you've got yourself a pretty big mess. Add MSAA and (optionally) IAccessible2 and you've got yourself... something indescribable. NVDA takes this concept of bloated accessibility and simplifies it. It relies on UIA, MSAA and IAccessible2 only when each technology is needed. If I'm not mistaken, NVDA prioritizes accessibility information: if UIA's information is better than IAccessible2, it runs with what UIA gives, and so on. This greatly simplifies not only the collection and maagement of accessibility information, but it also makes it much easier to hook into other accessibility APIs when its time to add them.These are theories, however. I cannot attest that these claims are actually accurate, as I am not an NVDA or JAWS developer (thank god I'm not a JAWS dev, I'd hate that). However, its a pretty good assumption and would be the logical way to go about it.You say that "many people are reporting this." Are they annotating other issues or creating new ones. If they're creating new issues, then no wonder NVAccess is so slow-- they have to sort through *every* issue, assign it, and close them and so on. A common git hub practice when reporting issues (I don't understand why people wouldn't do this) is to find the issue about the subject in question, read through it to se if there are suggestions you have not considered, and then, if you have exhausted all suggestions in the issue, you indicate that you, too, are suffering the issue. If people wouldn't open thousands of issues about the same issue and follow common git hub practices, I doubt NVAccess would be so slow-moving, nor do I think they'd have so many issues open.@74, did I say that you were spamming them with issues? No, I did not. I said hat you most likely would. Please read my post more carefully instead of going on a tangent at the slightest movement. And I'll take the "stupid" part of your last sentence: none of us who said we weren't having these issues assumed (at least, I didn't) that you were stupid for 'having these issues'. We point out simplistic things as a diagnostic device. It is quite literally the first thing any organization or group of developers will tell you to do when you go to them with a problem. Do not assume, then, that that organization or group of developers thinks you are stupid. That is such an erroneous assumption as to be laughable. It is a basic diagnostic tool to ensure that the issue is not a user error and is in fact a code-related issue. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430927/#p430927 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @73, Nidsa07 already pointed out why people give simplistic advice before going and immediately thinking that its a problem with the program. I shall not reiterate it in this post.Second, JAWS does not just rely on UIA and iAccessible2 for accessibility as NVDA does. JAWS relies on three components: the video intercept driver, UIA, and MSAA. (It may also rely on IAccessible2 and other APIs that I don't know of.) Either way, JAWS is capable of directly intercepting what is being drawn to the screen and where its being drawn. Scripts (a.k.a. hacks) can therefore be implemented to detect what's being drawn and, using that information, can deliver that information to the user. NVDA does not do this, for obvious reasons. I have no doubt that JAWS's codebase has surpassed the "unmaintainable" state and the only reason that its still maintained is because the developers know the code so well.Now, before you come to the (understandable, but false) conclusion that JAWS is superior in this matter, it is not. In fact, the methods that I believe JAWS uses is in fact inferior to what NVDA does. JAWS relies on what the graphics card is drawing to get textual information. This means it has to do a lot more internal computation in order to figure out what exactly is important and what isn't. Add to that the UIA layer and you've got yourself a pretty big mess. Add MSAA and (optionally) IAccessible2 and you've got yourself... something indescribable. NVDA takes this concept of bloated accessibility and simplifies it. It relies on UIA, MSAA and IAccessible2 only when each technology is needed. If I'm not mistaken, NVDA prioritizes accessibility information: if UIA's information is better than IAccessible2, it runs with what UIA gives, and so on. This greatly simplifies not only the collection and maagement of accessibility information, but it also makes it much easier to hook into other accessibility APIs when its time to add them.These are theories, however. I cannot attest that these claims are actually accurate, as I am not an NVDA or JAWS developer (thank god I'm not a JAWS dev, I'd hate that). However, its a pretty good assumption and would be the logical way to go about it.You say that "many people are reporting this." Are they annotating other issues or creating new ones. If they're creating new issues, then no wonder NVAccess is so slow-- they have to sort through *every* issue, assign it, and close them and so on. A common git hub practice when reporting issues (I don't understand why people wouldn't do this) is to find the issue about the subject in question, read through it to se if there are suggestions you have not considered, and then, if you have exhausted all suggestions in the issue, you indicate that you, too, are suffering the issue. If people wouldn't open thousands of issues about the same issue and follow common git hub practices, I doubt NVAccess would be so slow-moving, nor do I think they'd have so many issues open.@74, did I say that you were spamming them with issues? No, I did not. I said hat you most likely would. Please read my post more carefully instead of going on a tangent at the slightest movement. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430927/#p430927 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @73, Nidsa07 already pointed out why people give simplistic advice before going and immediately thinking that its a problem with the program. I shall not reiterate it in this post.Second, JAWS does not just rely on UIA and iAccessible2 for accessibility as NVDA does. JAWS relies on three components: the video intercept driver, UIA, and MSAA. (It may also rely on IAccessible2 and other APIs that I don't know of.) Either way, JAWS is capable of directly intercepting what is being drawn to the screen and where its being drawn. Scripts (a.k.a. hacks) can therefore be implemented to detect what's being drawn and, using that information, can deliver that information to the user. NVDA does not do this, for obvious reasons. I have no doubt that JAWS's codebase has surpassed the "unmaintainable" state and the only reason that its still maintained is because the developers know the code so well.Now, before you come to the (understandable, but false) conclusion that JAWS is superior in this matter, it is not. In fact, the methods that I believe JAWS uses is in fact inferior to what NVDA does. JAWS relies on what the graphics card is drawing to get textual information. This means it has to do a lot more internal computation in order to figure out what exactly is important and what isn't. Add to that the UIA layer and you've got yourself a pretty big mess. Add MSAA and (optionally) IAccessible2 and you've got yourself... something indescribable. NVDA takes this concept of bloated accessibility and simplifies it. It relies on UIA, MSAA and IAccessible2 only when each technology is needed. If I'm not mistaken, NVDA prioritizes accessibility information: if UIA's information is better than IAccessible2, it runs with what UIA gives, and so on. This greatly simplifies not only the collection and maagement of accessibility information, but it also makes it much easier to hook into other accessibility APIs when its time to add them.These are theories, however. I cannot attest that these claims are actually accurate, as I am not an NVDA developer. However, its a pretty good assumption and would be the logical way to go about it.You say that "many people are reporting this." Are they annotating other issues or creating new ones. If they're creating new issues, then no wonder NVAccess is so slow-- they have to sort through *every* issue, assign it, and close them and so on. A common git hub practice when reporting issues (I don't understand why people wouldn't do this) is to find the issue about the subject in question, read through it to se if there are suggestions you have not considered, and then, if you have exhausted all suggestions in the issue, you indicate that you, too, are suffering the issue. If people wouldn't open thousands of issues about the same issue and follow common git hub practices, I doubt NVAccess would be so slow-moving, nor do I think they'd have so many issues open. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430927/#p430927 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @70 uh, you don't know what I'm running and not running, so telling me to not run snapshots makes no sense, you're making assumptions, incorrect ones in this case. Also, spamming with issues, what is this bullshit, I may have filed at most, 4 or 5 in 10 years. Do at least have some handle on what you're talking about before you go running off your mouth.@71 You're not helping either, basically coming off with your ecerbic and insulting comments. Assuming people are stupid because they have these issues where others don't. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430926/#p430926 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. Jayde, I completely agree with you. And since I am a power user, really simplistic advice is very demeaning.So ethin, I will speak they way you speak with me. So basicly your saying that just because a few coders were really lazy and didn't add really simple support to my screen reader my instructors have deliver 300 comments in an e-mail? Maybe it is you who should grow up, not me. If microsoft didn't add comment reading ability, how is Jaws able to do it then?Also this problem is not related to snapshot builds. The fact of the matter is, NVDA is lagging behind and it needs to catch up. Many people are reporting this, not just me. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430921/#p430921 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. I run NVDA on 40-50 computers at work.They run windows 10 pro, windows 10 enterprise LTSC and different hardware configurations, at least three or four different CPUs. They also do have different software installed and are lightly customized by the employees.I've never had the issues mentioned on these workstations.I almost suspect that there's something wrong with your windows installation or your software environment. but i'm not a NVDA dev so. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430920/#p430920 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @69 oh yeah, and your posts totally contribute to what exactly? Even that one does not.@ jayde, sorry, but it's normal that when somebody is experiencing an issue, they get asked such questions, no matter how basic they are. Go report a bug to Freedom scientific and they will do the same, or in fact any company will simply to avoid wasting time looking to see what is wrong in their code while it could simply have been user error, no matter how advanced somebody is with computers, , everybody can forget a setting or misconfigure something every once in a while. So, if you feel offended with that, then I don't see how anybody can help. You are experiencing an issue, you are sure it's not your error, so why not just answer the questions and try what people tell you? It's the most logical procedure for reporting bugs, and has nothing to do with NVDA or Jaws. Microsoft recommends rebooting your PC for so many different things, would you just say really, this company thinks I'm dumb and I didn't try that already? Sure I know some people would, but you do not have a label on your face saying I'm a computer genious. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430917/#p430917 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @69, uh, I actually am contributing to it. I'm giving various insites that people like you and Enes are quite happy to ignore. Which is perfectly fine if you want to spam NVAccess issues and generally get ignored and seen as a winy person. So no, I'm not spluging all over it, as you put it. If I was, people would've said so a while ago. You could, of course, always fix the issues in NVDA core yourself (or stop running snapshot builds, as NOcternus recommended...) URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430915/#p430915 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @69, uh, I actually am contributing to it. I'm giving various insites that people like you and Enes are quite happy to ignore. Which is perfectly fine if you want to spam NVAccess with issues and generally get ignored and seen as a winy person. So no, I'm not spluging all over it, as you put it. If I was, people would've said so a while ago. You could, of course, always fix the issues your having in NVDA core yourself (or stop running snapshot builds, as Nocternus recommended...) URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430915/#p430915 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. bro, you're not even contributing anything to this topic, you're just splooging all over it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430914/#p430914 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @63, just... wow. Just omg wow. Hate to say it man but your post screamed immaturity from the get go. Listen up, and listen close:Stop comparing NVDA to JAWS!Got that in your head? Good. Now, for the real meetgrinder:NvDA does not read comments. OK. I've suffered that. That's not much of an issue since annotations and other things that you'd put in a comment can usually be delivered in emails. Ever considered asking your instructors to send you an email containing their comments? Or, even better, have you considered the possibility -- the possibility -- that *gasp* MS does not expose comments through UIA? Ever thought of that in your rage and anger and hate towards all things NVAccess?Now, please stop raging. Its only making you look like a child, dude. Grow up.And NVDA needs to catch up to what, exactly? They're using the tools they have at their disposal. If an API they have doesn't expose something that users need, and there isn't a better API to do it, then it can't be done any better than it already is. Simple as that. Oh, they can hack -- but hacks usually don't work.@Jade, yeah, they do seem to mostly be coming from people who use JAWS, or use JAWS primarily. So JAWS users or people who use JAWS as their primary screen reader... stop comparing NVDA to JAWS; that's like apples and oranges! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430912/#p430912 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @63, just... wow. Just omg wow. Hate to say it man but your post screamed immaturity from the get go. Listen up, and listen close:Stop comparing NVDA to JAWS!Got that in your head? Good. Now, for the real meetgrinder:NvDA does not read comments. OK. I've suffered that. That's not much of an issue since annotations and other things that you'd put in a comment can usually be delivered in emails. Ever considered asking your instructors to send you an email containing their comments? Or, even better, have you considered the possibility -- the possibility -- that *gasp* MS does not expose comments through UIA? Ever thought of that in your rage and anger and hate towards all things NVAccess?Now, please stop raging. Its only making you look like a child, dude. Grow up.And NVDA needs to catch up to what, exactly? They're using the tools they have at their disposal. If an API they have doesn't expose something that users need, and there isn't a better API to do it, then it can't be done any better than it already is. Simple as that. Oh, they can hack -- but hacks usually don't work.@Jade, yeah, they do seem to mostly be coming from people who use JAWS. So JAWS users, stop comparing NVDA to JAWS; that's like apples and oranges! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430912/#p430912 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. Moderation:Ironcross, I'm going to issue a rather late-in-coming caution here. Your original few posts on this thread were extremely incendiary. I'm glad you've backed off a bit, because I would have felt it necessary to warn you otherwise. Thank you for taking yourself in rein a bit. I understand that this sort of thing makes you upset.endmoderationIt makes me upset as well, honestly. I haven't had these NVDA issues, but in saying that I am not attempting to invalidate those of you who struggle, either. NVDA isn't perfect, and that's all right. It's good at a lot of things, has issues with a few others. There seems to be a mentality, however, which goes like this: "Well, it's not happening to me. Have you tried this?". And on the face of it, that's not a terrible idea. But what it does is sort of assumes that said NVDA user is probably looking down at the other person, even if it's not what they mean to do. Imagine a woman who walks into a hardware store and goes up to a salesman and says, "I'm having such-and-such a problem", then gets fairly specific. If the salesman says, "I don't see why you're having that issue" and then suggests something fairly simple, that woman may feel like she's being talked down to. I respect that you are, in your way, trying to help, but just consider how it comes across. Some of it is down to user error and configuration, of course, but not all.In my experience, though, I've noticed a funny thing. This "I don't have that problem" mentality seems more strident among primary NVDA users than Jaws users. I may be wrong, but who knows? And I wonder why that might be... URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430907/#p430907 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. It is only called UIA word support. The fact is, it covers outlook message reading slash writing as well since they use the same interfaces, Please, listen to this recent interview with NV Access found at http://www.blindbargains.com/b/20030and actually, they need to catch up to what? Both Jaws and NVDA have their user bases, and none of them are dead or out of date with something.edit: The user guide mentions Outlook as well, so I would definitely say some reading is required before bashing.Edit2: I, probably NV access or every single developer in this world wont care to fix your problems when you cannot explain them in anything but UIA support is shit. Too bad, it will probably remain so for you with that kind of feedback. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430901/#p430901 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. It is only called UIA word support. The fact is, it covers outlook message reading slash writing as well since they use the same interfaces, Please, listen to this recent interview with NV Access found at http://www.blindbargains.com/b/20030and actually, they need to catch up to what? Both Jaws and NVDA have their user bases, and none of them are dead or out of date with something.edit: The user guide mentions Outlook as well, so I would definitely say some reading is required before bashing. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430901/#p430901 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. It is only called UIA word support. The fact is, it covers outlook message reading slash writing as well since they use the same interfaces, Please, listen to this recent interview with NV Access found at http://www.blindbargains.com/b/20030and actually, they need to catch up to what? Both Jaws and NVDA have their user bases, and none of them are dead or out of date with something. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430901/#p430901 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. I don't have many problems with NVDA.On my old laptop, it used to freeze in such a way that it wasn't possible to interrupt anything, and it pretty much kept going like my math textbook until I restarted it.I remember games like Redspot seemed to trigger that.This issue seems to have vanished though.NVDA can be laggy on this computer, but we're talking a 32 bit that has 50 programs installed, exactly 3 of which need to be running. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430900/#p430900 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. Or perhaps you should try running without snapshot? Methinks I just addressed that above. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430899/#p430899 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. Hi Nid,Note that I said UIA support in office, not specificly word. Word does have experimental UIA support, but does NVDA support UIA in outlook? powerpoint? Excell, where performance is shit? Noep. And UIA in word is shit. It won't even read comments and rivisions.And ethin, firefox must slow then my pc then? What if I told you that the problem magically disappears when I turn off NVDA and have a sighted person use firefox?And the CMD issue must also be a nitch issue some crazy people have, because there is an issue like from 11 years ago! So basicly you are talking down to me as if I don't know how to use a computer and know the features of NVDA. I assure you I do, and I run NVDA in snapshot mode. I am well aware of the changes, as well as the future ones in the pipeline.The fact of the matter is, NVAccess need to catch! up! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430896/#p430896 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. Like I said in 45, I'm not discounting the issues exist. I encountered a ton of issues about a year ago where lag and other things were concerned and did two things.1. I got rid of a program intended to run linux virtually... I still believe it was causing a ton of keyboard conflict, and while I can't prove it I figured the worst that could happen was that I wasn't going to have it anymore.2. I stopped running NVDA as a snapshot. Shame shame, I know, but I figured it might just make my particular problems go away.I'm not sure which of those 2 options actually did it, but the fact is that since September of last year I've experienced no issue I can trace back to NVDA. I'm pretty sure I have to replace my audio-interface, pretty sure my motherboard is just about shot, and there's probably some issues with my SSD because I'm running windows 7 on a computer that's meant to run win10 and really doesn't have all the proper drivers installed for this particular job, but that's not NVDA's fault, anymore than the world being round is mine. Besides, this laptop is about 3 years old, is constantly running, is made by HP, had a ton of bloatware thanks to best-buy when I first got it, and so on.So, you see, the variables are many! I have an issue with JFW where, if windows shows me a tooltip while I'm browsing in explorer, explorer crashes. After the process resumes, I cannot get into any drive and get an error about remote procedure call failing and not excecuting. There are three ways to deal with that one in particular: I can restart the machine, run chkdsk which works for some odd reason, or I can wait about 20 minutes for remote procedure call and RTC locater to sort themselves out. All of those fixes, however, are temporary fixes and last only until the issue rears its ugly head again.But which is really to fault here? I've suffered that issue on three machines, 1 running windows Vista with JFW 12, 1 running windows 7 and JFW 14 and 15, and my last desktop which had a copy of JFW 17 installed on it. One machine was an HP laptop; the other two were Dell desktops. I tried unplugging external harddrives to see if it was simply a lag issue, tried ending a bunch of processes, tried reproducing the issue with NVDA instead of JFW running, but no dice. I tried getting JFW users' help with it, and as you will notice if you read that, almost none responded. Of those who did, they either were having the same issue and knew not how to fix it, or were not having eh issue at all. Interestingly enough, most of the suggestions, you can clearly see, came form peopel who were using multiple screen readers and didn't make JAWS their only solution. I find it just as interesting that many people seem to think NVDa users are just being hateful and unreasonable, but when someone sas their product is not up to scratch they do get mighty defensive or don't take the person in question seriously, as proven by above linkage. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430875/#p430875 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. Oh yeah, something in my setup is to blame, despite three complete reinstalls of NVDA and one complete install of the OS from scratch, yep, sure, logical indeed. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430871/#p430871 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @58, yep, suffered similar once when curl blasted my console with a huge binary file over SSH. (I had forgotten to use -O.) Was not fun.The issue of NVDA freezing when an application crashes is definitely an issue that I will agree on -- that actually is an issue. Its probably not going to be fixed unless NVAccess changes the way NVDA interacts with the system, and the only reason -- or at least one of the reasons -- that its set up the way its set up is so they don't need to add a mock display driver in there like JAWS did and still does. I can deal with it, though it pisses me off sometimes (especially when I need to interact with an app to generate a crash). I can usuallyget the debugger to print the backtrace before I terminate the app and restart NVDA though. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430872/#p430872 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. Well, actually it all reminds me last year, when the breaking news was, that classic skype will be no more. So I installed this new one and those first weeks were hell! I was completely confused and pissed trying to figure this new shit out, but fortunately over time skype itself has gotten somewhat better and of course familiarity with the new one began to grow.In 2004 I got my first computer and of course started exploring what interested me the most: ways to make music on it without buying software "No cracking, only freeware.". And how many times have I bumped into that hard wall of finding so many interesting programs and understanding, that I simply can not use them due to not being accessible, at all. So then I also thought, why in hell aren't developers aware of some other kind of users, like blind ones. So that's from where I know that "Why the hell nothing gets fixed or done!" feeling.Next easy step is to sit down and think. If I can read, understand and write code, there's at least some chance I can change something and if not, like in My personal case, there's no way my being angry or even exploading from that could fix anything.There's yet another interesting phenomenan still not showing any signs of going away and that's that superdefenciveness we tend to experience and express as users of different screen readers. Why this "My dogg is better than your dogg" effect?I would be seriously interested in a little time trip into the future to see, if a study on this has been conducted - a serious psychological study I mean and not at all in a sour manner I mean this. I'm genuinly curious, what's the nature of this thing.I hope my thought blast doesn't mess up the topic completely, but it's quite a mess already so may-be it has a calming effect instead. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430873/#p430873 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. All you have to do to know about the UIA support is read the changelog, nothing else. And, if you are that unhappy with NVDA, shouldn't you read it to see if anything has been fixed? As for the CMD thing, it happens in some cases. For example, when debugging for Android and you use adb logcat, that prints constantly huge amounts of text and I did experience that freeze. However, all I did was restart NVDA and I could see the output normally. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430870/#p430870 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @55, no, your just irritated that something in your computer setup is destabilizing your copy of NVDA and you are quite happy to blame it on NVAccess even though the likelihood of all your problems being with NVDA is about 50-50. I'd check your computer first though. (int: sedlauncher.exe was taking up more CPU than NVDA was at one point, caused some lag with that one.) URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430868/#p430868 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @55, no, your just irritated that something in your computer setup is destabilizing your copy of NVDA and you are quite happy to blame it on NVAccess even though the likelihood of all your problems being with NVDA is about 50-50. I'd check your computer first though. (hint: sedlauncher.exe was taking up more CPU than NVDA was at one point on my system, caused some lag with that one. Didn't help that my computer was running in "ultra-low power mode" either.) URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430868/#p430868 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. Also, I know that UIA support for NVDA does exist? You wana know how? Not just the advanced settings list, but I *gasp* working on homework for class that used tables and headers and word and... *gasp*... less than 250 ms lag! And it worked! Quite nicely, in fact! It didn't tell me that there was acolumn next to the column I had highlighted, but I don't really consider that much of a problem anyway since my settings for that might've prevented that. And I used word a few hours ago too! *gasp*... it worked! Wonderfully!I use apps on a daily basis that print huge amounts of text to the console, and... *gasp* NVDA's pretty happy with it too. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430866/#p430866 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @47 yeah pretty much.@40 and you, and your little buddies with their heads firmly implanted in their rear ends are grating on mine. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430864/#p430864 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. I had a good laugh out of the list in post 43. NVDA has no UIA support in office? Okay then, could you go tell that to Mic? I'm sure he'd be really happy to know that something he was debugging for months now does not even exist. Moreover, weren't some of you saying how UIA support in office is a hacky workaround? Now, we do need it? Firefox is bad with NVDA and eats a lot of resources? Okay then, so why not try something else? Fortunately, there are tons of alternatives to choose from. It is nothing bad that a screen reader does not work well with a certain browser, even though this is not the case with Firefox. However, NVDA had way better Chrome support than Jaws for quite a while, so what? Jaws users happily used Firefox until it got better. Office performance was also improved in the latest release, so you may want to update your knowledge and not post about issues from last version even though I know you want your list to have as many items as possible. Similarly, the large CMD output no longer freezes the entire PC and you can simply restart NVDA. I know, not ideal, but it is being worked on, so it is no longer a major issue. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430862/#p430862 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. I removed my last few sentences because it was (IMO) over the line, but the rest remains. And yes, Nockternus, you did ban me once. (Sorry if I misspelled your name.) I'm just really getting irritated with all this wining and complaining when most of the time the issues aren't really issues or they're issues only in particular circumstances (see: post 50). URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430859/#p430859 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. I removed my last few sentences because it was (IMO) over the line, but the rest remains. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430859/#p430859 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. Not sure how often I doublepost, but I doubt it's as often as all that, so if I'm taking the liberty to do so right now, it's simply to say that Ethin and I don't always agree, but 50 has a ton of well worded insight.In fact, methinks I banned Ethin at one point? Make of that what you will. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430857/#p430857 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. Like I said, NVDA is a project that doesn't have the backing of money like JAWS has. You can bash it all day and rake it over the coals, and point out every flaw in the universe about it, but it doesn't solve them. Not all the flaws in NVDA are fixable, not easily at least. If explorer crashing is indeed a problem with NVDA (one I have never suffered, ever), its most likely one of those problems that can't be fixed because your computer setup is so unique. Let's go over the wonderful flaws that Enes listed in 43:Command prompt: this is more likely a problem with the speech synthesis drivers and not with NVDA itself. That's going to be a much, much harder fix to implement because (most of the time) those drivers aren't open source. If its a problem with the NVDA controller client, I have no idea what it does (because Ican't find the source code for it). I can theorize though.Can't tell the difference between typed and printed characters: I don't suffer this, even with speak typed characters on in the command prompt. Perhaps that's why they haven't fixed it -- because not many have actually suffered this issue, perhaps?"It works so well! in office that a key press takes 20 seconds to respond! and tables... oh god tables... they cause my pc to crash, and CPU usage to jump to 5000%!" This doesn't happen to me either. I have UIA enabled but even without it this does not happen."It works so well! in firefox that with NVDA running, firefox uses gbs of ram, and 50% CPU!" Are you sure that's, uh, NVDA, and not firefox? Firefox is well known for eating up CPU resources (even on Linux!) like there's no tomorrow."It works so well! with UIA, that it doesn't even support it in office apps!" Correct: it does work in office apps. Ever heard of that setting in 'advanced'?So: most of the issues and complaints that people bitch and wine about:1) only happen to a minority of the global community of those that use NVDA, and therefore are hard to debug and fix, or2) aren't actually issues at all (see: UIA in office)To help you guys understand, let's say a new application comes out. We'll call this application 'X'. X gets a very large user base, with thousands of combinations of computer setups, software installations and use cases, and so on. After five months users are starting to report problems. A survey is conducted, and the totals come out to: less than 25 percent of the user base suffers the problems listed in the survey; the rest are fine.So, let's now put you into the position of the developers of X. How would you fix that problem if less than 25 percent of your user base was reporting issues? Would you be able to implement solutions that worked if you didn't know their computers like the back of your hand?As Nocturnus said: If NvDA isn't delivering what you thought it did, and NVAccess is unable to fix the problems that your having, and NVAccess can't reproduce the problem on their machines, feel free to switch. Or, perhaps you should 1) learn to be a bit more open-minded and start to ask yourself if all the problems your computer is displaying are actually the fault of NVDA instead of the fault of another program (have you ever heard of the term 'virus'?) and 2) actually go help NVAccess to fix it, instead of wining all day. It is, after all, open source, you know. I'm sorry to be so harsh, but this repetitive wining and narrow-mindedness of these users who suffer these problems is grating on my nerves. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430854/#p430854 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. Like I said, NVDA is a project that doesn't have the backing of money like JAWS has. You can bash it all day and rake it over the coals, and point out every flaw in the universe about it, but it doesn't solve them. Not all the flaws in NVDA are fixable, not easily at least. If explorer crashing is indeed a problem with NVDA (one I have never suffered, ever), its most likely one of those problems that can't be fixed because your computer setup is so unique. Let's go over the wonderful flaws that Enes listed in 43:Command prompt: this is more likely a problem with the speech synthesis drivers and not with NVDA itself. That's going to be a much, much harder fix to implement because (most of the time) those drivers aren't open source. If its a problem with the NVDA controller client, I have no idea what it does (because Ican't find the source code for it). I can theorize though.Can't tell the difference between typed and printed characters: I don't suffer this, even with speak typed characters on in the command prompt. Perhaps that's why they haven't fixed it -- because not many have actually suffered this issue, perhaps?"It works so well! in office that a key press takes 20 seconds to respond! and tables... oh god tables... they cause my pc to crash, and CPU usage to jump to 5000%!" This doesn't happen to me either. I have UIA enabled but even without it this does not happen."It works so well! in firefox that with NVDA running, firefox uses gbs of ram, and 50% CPU!" Are you sure that's, uh, NVDA, and not firefox? Firefox is well known for eating up CPU resources (even on Linux!) like there's no tomorrow."It works so well! with UIA, that it doesn't even support it in office apps!" Correct: it does work in office apps. Ever heard of that setting in 'advanced'?So: most of the issues and complaints that people bitch and wine about:1) only happen to a minority of the global community of those that use NVDA, and therefore are hard to debug and fix, or2) aren't actually issues at all (see: UIA in office)To help you guys understand, let's say a new application comes out. We'll call this application 'X'. X gets a very large user base, with thousands of combinations of computer setups, software installations and use cases, and so on. After five months users are starting to report problems. A survey is conducted, and the totals come out to: less than 25 percent of the user base suffers the problems listed in the survey; the rest are fine.So, let's now put you into the position of the developers of X. How would you fix that problem if less than 25 percent of your user base was reporting issues? Would you be able to implement solutions that worked if you didn't know their computers like the back of your hand?As Nocturnus said: If NvDA isn't delivering what you thought it did, and NVAccess is unable to fix the problems that your having, and NVAccess can't reproduce the problem on their machines, feel free to switch. Or, perhaps you should 1) learn to be a bit more open-minded and start to ask yourself if all the problems your computer is displaying are actually the fault of NVDA instead of the fault of another program (have you ever heard of the term 'virus'?) and 2) actually go help NVAccess to fix it, instead of wining all day. It is, after all, open source, you know. I'm sorry to be so harsh, but this repetitive wining and narrow-mindedness of these users who suffer these problems is grating on my nerves. "I have problem x! Fx it!" "I have problem X! Fix it!" "I have problem X, and it crashes my computer, but I won't even possibly! consider that it just might be the fault of another program on my system! Oh know, it must be NVDA! It couldn't possibly be anything else! Fix it, NVAccess! Fix it -- even if I haven't really provided you any way to reproduce it! Fix it even if you can't reproduce it! Fix it fix it fix it!" Yes, that's literally what this sounds like to me. Repetitive fix-it requests, with a bunch of narrow-mindedness thrown into the mix. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430854/#p430854 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. @49, if you believe post 47 was intended for you specifically, the answer is no. I realize that there is always an exception to every rule. If you're the exception, then you are and I'm sorry you even thought that for a minute.As far as why polarizing opinions have become the norm? Blame social media. It's kind of like TV; supply in demand. You need to produce something that is controversial to jack up the ratings, even if it is toxic. FB and Twitter are so full of information and misinformation and so many people who are unwilling to figure out which is which, but they are willing to look like they know rather than be seen as silent fools. I remember once upon a time there used to be a quote about how it was better to remain silent and be thought stupid than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Today, annonimity makes it less than necessary to make that a consideration, because no one knows who you are, stupid or not. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430856/#p430856 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. Like I said, NVDA is a project that doesn't have the backing of money like JAWS has. You can bash it all day and rake it over the coals, and point out every flaw in the universe about it, but it doesn't solve them. Not all the flaws in NVDA are fixable, not easily at least. If explorer crashing is indeed a problem with NVDA (one I have never suffered, ever), its most likely one of those problems that can't be fixed because your computer setup is so unique. Let's go over the wonderful flaws that Enes listed in 43:Command prompt: this is more likely a problem with the speech synthesis drivers and not with NVDA itself. That's going to be a much, much harder fix to implement because (most of the time) those drivers aren't open source. If its a problem with the NVDA controller client, I have no idea what it does (because Ican't find the source code for it). I can theorize though.Can't tell the difference between typed and printed characters: I don't suffer this, even with speak typed characters on in the command prompt. Perhaps that's why they haven't fixed it -- because not many have actually suffered this issue, perhaps?"It works so well! in office that a key press takes 20 seconds to respond! and tables... oh god tables... they cause my pc to crash, and CPU usage to jump to 5000%!" This doesn't happen to me either. I have UIA enabled but even without it this does not happen."It works so well! in firefox that with NVDA running, firefox uses gbs of ram, and 50% CPU!" Are you sure that's, uh, NVDA, and not firefox? Firefox is well known for eating up CPU resources (even on Linux!) like there's no tomorrow."It works so well! with UIA, that it doesn't even support it in office apps!" Correct: it does work in office apps. Ever heard of that setting in 'advanced'?So: most of the issues and complaints that people bitch and wine about:1) only happen to a minority of the global community of those that use NVDA, and therefore are hard to debug and fix, or2) aren't actually issues at all (see: UIA in office)To help you guys understand, let's say a new application comes out. We'll call this application 'X'. X gets a very large user base, with thousands of combinations of computer setups, software installations and use cases, and so on. After five months users are starting to report problems. A survey is conducted, and the totals come out to: less than 25 percent of the user base suffers the problems listed in the survey; the rest are fine.So, let's now put you into the position of the developers of X. How would you fix that problem if less than 25 percent of your user base was reporting issues? Would you be able to implement solutions that worked if you didn't know their computers like the back of your hand?As Nocturnus said: If NvDA isn't delivering what you thought it did, and NVAccess is unable to fix the problems that your having, and NVAccess can't reproduce the problem on their machines, feel free to switch. Or, perhaps you should 1) learn to be a bit more open-minded and start to ask yourself if all the problems yoru computer is displaying are actually the fault of NVDA instead of the fault of another program (ave you ever heard of the term 'virus'?) and 2) actually go help NVAccess to fix it, instead of wining all day. It is, after all, open source, you know. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430854/#p430854 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. Like I said, NVDA is a project that doesn't have the backing of money like JAWS has. You can bash it all day and rake it over the coals, and point out every flaw in the universe about it, but it doesn't solve them. Not all the flaws in NVDA are fixable, not easily at least. If explorer crashing is indeed a problem with NVDA (one I have never suffered, ever), its most likely one of those problems that can't be fixed because your computer setup is so unique. Let's go over the wonderful flaws that Enes listed in 43:Command prompt: this is more likely a problem with the speech synthesis drivers and not with NVDA itself. That's going to be a much, much harder fix to implement because (most of the time) those drivers aren't open source. If its a problem with the NVDA controller client, I have no idea what it does (because Ican't find the source code for it). I can theorize though.Can't tell the difference between typed and printed characters: I don't suffer this, even with speak typed characters on in the command prompt. Perhaps that's why they haven't fixed it -- because not many have actually suffered this issue, perhaps?"It works so well! in office that a key press takes 20 seconds to respond! and tables... oh god tables... they cause my pc to crash, and CPU usage to jump to 5000%!" This doesn't happen to me either. I have UIA enabled but even without it this does not happen."It works so well! in firefox that with NVDA running, firefox uses gbs of ram, and 50% CPU!" Are you sure that's, uh, NVDA, and not firefox? Firefox is well known for eating up CPU resources (even on Linux!) like there's no tomorrow."It works so well! with UIA, that it doesn't even support it in office apps!" Correct: it does work in office apps. Ever heard of that setting in 'advanced'?So: most of the issues and complaints that people bitch and wine about:1) only happen to a minority of the global community of those that use NVDA, and therefore are hard to debug and fix, or2) aren't actually issues at all (see: UIA in office)To help you guys understand, let's say a new application comes out. We'll call this application 'X'. X gets a very large user base, with thousands of combinations of computer setups, software installations and use cases, and so on. After five months users are starting to report problems. A survey is conducted, and the totals come out to: less than 25 percent of the user base suffers the problems listed in the survey; the rest are fine.So, let's now put you into the position of the developers of X. How would you fix that problem if less than 25 percent of your user base was reporting issues? Would you be able to implement solutions that worked if you didn't know their computers like the back of your hand?As Nocturnus said: If NvDA isn't delivering what you thought it did, and NVAccess is unable to fix the problems that your having, and NVAccess can't reproduce the problem on their machines, feel free to switch. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430854/#p430854 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. If it's about my commenting, then I definitely wasn't trying to be snarky, but seriously wondering, why I'm that happy fool not being affected. Exactly same feeling had hit me when I prematurely and willingly installed the informous October update via windows media creation tool choosing not to wait the wrong time for sutch a big update and still nothing bad happened.So yeah. It might simply be the case I have stated before, that my written words and thoughts tend to look not the same, thus if I had spoken myself out orally, it would be obviously more clear. And of course I'm not pretending I don't hear other's problems or not take them seriously.If it wasn't about my posting specifically though, I apologize deeply for this next one, but I seriously don't get, why we blind folks have to be so pissed off all the time! Previously I thought it's just a syndrome of those local older blind people, but it seams to be allover the planet. Of course life is harsh, but not just for us and being sour about it doesn't obviously make things better.Let's still hope the originator of the topic comes back to state the progress or not of his situation. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430850/#p430850 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. Those of you who can code, feel free to fix the glaring issues in NVDA. Open source software is awesome!While I haven't experienced many of these issues, saying that NVDA is a shit hole is absolutely false. I use NVDA every day and it works great! Yes, it occasionally locks up, but aside from that, I've had no major issues. Once again, are those of you experiencing these issues running antivirus software or otherwise have something else on your computer that is making the system and/or NVDA unstable? Maybe the reason I don't have issues is because I always clean install Windows, don't have Bloatware, and don't use any other antivirus products besides Microsoft ones. I don't know, it's just me speculating here.If you really hate the wonderful work NV Access is doing for every blind person around the world, feel free to go back to Freedom Scientific and their hostile, monopolistic business practices. It's a shame. If FS really cared about accessibility, they could join the open source community and make NVDA even better for everyone, or they could change their strategy and focus on making a quality product instead of price gouging everyone for screen reading/magnification software and merging with all their competition. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430849/#p430849 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. It has been my personal experience that people who say they don't have a problem with this or that thing when others clearly do and don't at the very least offer up a possible fix are being snarky, kind of like that guy who tells you he's lounging on a sunny beach when you're experiencing the equivalent of hurricane Katrina elsewhere. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430848/#p430848 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. To address that people have the right to state they don't have problems with NVDA, of course you do. It's just the disbelieving attitude that bugs the shit out of me. Like look, I've been using a computer longer than a lot of these people have been alive, and they presume to tell me - and others - they're essentially full of shit? Nah. Bump that. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430845/#p430845 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. Can I just point out, right here, right now, that it really doesn't take any tallent to bash something you're not happy with? It would be easy enough to throw a kagillion destructive comments at anyone on this forum I disagree with, possibly even picking up a group of followers to go about upsetting your day just because I can. What isn't so easy? Being the solution to the problem.Seriously, if you're not having these issues, do yourself a favor and don't post unless you have a suggestion that merrits the attention of those who are. If you are having these issues and you think they're worth switching screen readers for, go right on ahead. Hopefully NVDA will still be there when you decide to turn back, as free as it was when you first tried it. If you're not having these issues and you're posting about having these issues to start a riot? I've got three words for you... Get a life!And yes; that last one, I'm fairly certain is legit, and I'll hold onto it until anyone can solidly prove people aren't doing it. Just as there were people who were blaming NVDA remote for not being a secure service rather than taking responsibility for not knowing how to properly use their computers and apply some common freaking sense, so too do I believe there are people who are not using NVDA and possibly even their machines properly who are then coming out here and claiming to have issues, or just fudging their experience for the sake of giving everybody a so-called I-told-you-so. Why does it matter? Because NVDA is free! Unlike JFW which can possibly pay PR to do damage control when something comes along, NVDA is heavily supporter based, so you'd better believe supporters are gonna come out and lash out for that reason!For the record, I"m not discounting that these issues exist, but until it becomes the majority of NVDA's users going through and finding them and having to suffer through them, you're on the ropes! If you don't believe NVDA is delivering, the simple solution is to stop using it! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430844/#p430844 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. anyone feel free to add to this list URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430833/#p430833 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. How dare we criticise NVAccess! We have a free screen reader, it even occasionally works actually! and partially! works with windows applications!It actually works so well that command prompt freezes! when you print a few thousand lines! But it gets even better, it works so well in fact! that the freeze takes all applications with it and requires a ctrl alt del to fix! ,It works so well! that NVDA spells out output, because it can't tell the difference between typed and printed characters!It works so well! that this has been a problem for 11 years! and noone is interested in fixing it!It works so well! in office that a key press takes 20 seconds to respond! and tables... oh god tables... they cause my pc to crash, and CPU usage to jump to 5000%!It works so well! in firefox that with NVDA running, firefox uses gbs of ram, and 50% CPU!It works so well! with UIA, that it doesn't even support it in office apps! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430832/#p430832 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. it is an NVDA issue. others have it, and it doesn't crash when using jaws. clearly you're the stupid one here. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430831/#p430831 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. Explorer crashing is not a problem with NVDA. That's a problem with windows itself. Deal with it. Stop bitching about issues that [can't] be fixable, it only makes you look stupid. As I said previously, NVAccess... is... not... a... miracle... worker. Or a group of them. They are an organization, existing solely off of donations and community support. They are collective of programmers trying to solve the problems that can be solved. They cannot, and will not, prepare or fix bugs that only happen on a few computer setups that happen to be unique. No program or operating system can do that. Windows tried and look where its gotten it -- taking up over 2 GB of RAM just to run with some stability and hogging CPU resources like a motherfucker. If you want the problems that can't be fixed by NVAccess to be fixed, then:1) go to the Gnome project and help on Orca. It needs some work.2) Go help with KDE accessibility and try to merge the both into Orca (or work on that separately)3) When your all done, permanently switch to Linux and lose access (temporarily, since there are open-source alternatives to most programs) to the programs you use everyday.Otherwise, deal with it or go fix the problems yourself. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430829/#p430829 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. Explorer crashing is not a problem with NVDA. That's a problem with windows itself. Deal with it. Stop bitching about issues that [can't] be fixable, it only makes you look stupid. As I said previously, NVAccess... is... not... a... miracle... worker. Or a group of them. They are an organization, existing solely off of donations and community support. They are collective of programmers trying to solve the problems that can be solved. They cannot, and will not, prepare or fix bugs that only happen on a few computer setups that happen to be unique. No program or operating system can do that. Windows tried and look where its gotten it -- taking up over 2 GB of RAM just to run with some stability and hogging CPU resources like a motherfucker. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430829/#p430829 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. oh please... most of you use jaws cracked, and if not, someone else like the school, pays it for you. Other countries, other people that are part of this world too, just like you, are years or even a life away from that luxury. Those of you complaining could post a recording, for example, instead of spamming the topic with things like:it just shows NVDA is a shit hole and a bunch of other trash talk nonsensebecause those things only show me one thing:You might be just describing yourself with the harsh, swearing words you use, and instead of putting the tips we have been giving here to use, you simply disregard everything.. and keep complaining, which is way easier than trying and fixing the problem, I guess. so why even bothering ask for help here anyway if you know or think the solutions here are not going to work for you? why don't you write those same things to NV access? see what responses you will get there, if any. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430821/#p430821 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think.
Re: i've had it with NVDA, i think. oh please... most of you use jaws cracked, and if not, someone else like the school, pays it for you. Other countries, other people that are part of this world too, just like you, are years or even a life away from that luxury. Those of you complaining could post a recording, for example, instead of spamming the topic with things like:it just shows NVDA is a shit hole and a bunch of other trash talk nonsensebecause those things only show me one thing:You might be just describing yourself with the harsh, swearing words you use, and instead of putting the tips we have been giving here to use, you simply disregard everything.. and keep complaining, which is way easier than trying and fixing the problem, I guess. so why even bothering ask for help here anyway if it is not going to work for you? why don't you write those same things to NV access? see what responses you will get there, if any. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430821/#p430821 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
