Re: best accessible IDE
Re: best accessible IDE @20 yup, I spent a whole work day debugging why java access bridge didnt work. absolute nightmare. gthankfully NVDA now packages JAB since v2019.3, so hopefully people dont have to do manual setup anymore.by the way, for me at least I found that if everything was done right to enable JAB and it still doesnt work, then it is almost definitely because of a missing dll. I think it is called WindowsAccessBridge32.dll or something. but whenever things werent working even though everything should be enabled, I would find this dll was missing and when I would put it in the right place, things would work.you can find it if you google for enabling and testing JAB, go to the official oracle page and go to troubleshooting section.It did take me a whole day of painful troubleshooting to find out about this dll, but since I haven't had problems with JAB other than the inherent lower standard of accessibility. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/552490/#p552490 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: best accessible IDE
Re: best accessible IDE @19Unless you're one of those people for whom the java Accessibility Bridge reliably doesn't work no matter what. I tried to try it once. it got stopped at this particular problem. Maybe that's finally been fixed. It would be nice if it has. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/552383/#p552383 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: best accessible IDE
Re: best accessible IDE do you guys have latest VS code version? cause for me I noticed that maybe like 2 weeks ago my VS code got much much better with arrowing through words with being much more accurate, to the point where I am ctrl + arrowing through words and actually know roughly where my cursor is.Personally I think that right now for python and _javascript_ specifically there is nothing better right now than VS code. for those it is just dynamite. I used it a bit for small Java stuff, but working for 12 months in a company doing Java/Scala programming I reluctantly switched to IntelliJ. At first I hated it. Higher learning curve than VS code and mostly just because there is pretty much no doc for getting started as a screen reader user unlike VS code, so it takes quite a while to figure out how to do all the things you might want to do. but oncd you figure it out it is an impressive beast when it comes to Java and Scala development.the IntelliJ team barely care about accessibility. Only just like a month ago they fixed an accessibility problemthat's been there for year even though it very easy to solve. I even ended up developing an NVDA addon to get around it, which just became obsolete.But despite that it is still the least painful way to develop Java around and today the accessibility is really quite decent. And the features are really great. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/552371/#p552371 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: best accessible IDE
Re: best accessible IDE @16OK mate, thanks for the URL. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/552365/#p552365 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: best accessible IDE
Re: best accessible IDE @16See this. Summary: it's upstream in Chromium and in C++, they can't fix it entirely on the VSCode side, they may not be able to fix it far enough to allow you to customize the boundaries as sighted users can, it's not going anywhere without Chromium help. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/552341/#p552341 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: best accessible IDE
Re: best accessible IDE @11That word navigation thing is the only thing that bothers me too. I thought they were just trying to make it act like VoiceOver because so many people develop on OS X.What is the status of that bug? I'm assuming it's been reported / is being worked on? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/552331/#p552331 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: best accessible IDE
Re: best accessible IDE @12Eclipse is fine as far as it goes. But I've tried it several times over the years with a pretty big gap between times. There's always inexplicable lag, or things that don't quite want to gain focus right, or the ever-dreaded "this listbox reads elements you just left when you arrow" bugs. Not to mention that getting it working with anything but java is kind of a pain, irregardless of accessibility. And autocomplete was always a little bit weird at least, something that never worked reliably with respect to screen readers in my experience.It's in the nature of Java that even a sucky IDE with accessibility issues is better than no IDE, just because of the amazing amount of boilerplate, and if I had the choice between Eclipse or nothing and had to do Java, it'd be eclipse every time. But for anything else...well. The efficiency drops and the small amount of weirdness all over, it's not worth it. And as far as I know Eclipse hasn't responded to accessibility bugs in a long time.I don't know how VSCode works w.r.t. Java, but I installed it, I started it, it just worked. The only major annoying bug is word navigation being weird because of Chromium. Bugs, when I do find them, seem to consistently be fixed, in one instance same day. Despite being a web app, it acts entirely like native controls. No lag anywhere, it starts instantly. They even got live regions right, so that it announces all sorts of stuff you'd normally need to develop screen reader add-ons/scripts for.It probably has issues on underpowered machines because it's Electron, but for most of us developing in anger I imagine that's less of an issue, and I can level the same criticism at Java.If I had to summarize--VSCode has polish. When it doesn't you can get them to fix it. They seem to understand what makes things efficient for a screen reader user. When they don't and you point it out they listen. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/552279/#p552279 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: best accessible IDE
Re: best accessible IDE Even though I haven't used it very much, I am also quite impressed with VSCode. And the VSCode developers are very attentive to accessibility issues, even on Linux, which is usually overlooked by most companies.I'm just so use to Emacs that I find it hard to switch.There's a few things I miss from Emacs with Emacspeak though, two that come to mind are audio syntax highlighting, and audio indication of matching delimiters.There might be extensions for Windows screen readers to handle the above though, in fact, I would be very surprised if there aren't. However, I do almost all my development work on Linux. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/552276/#p552276 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: best accessible IDE
Re: best accessible IDE @11:ok. thanks@12:is eclips more accessible? and will it support python and web devellopment stuf? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/552267/#p552267 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: best accessible IDE
2020-07-14
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Developers room : black and white via Audiogames-reflector
Re: best accessible IDE @2What's wrong with Eclipse?I'm currently using it and I have no major problems.Although I'm curious if there are anything better.If VSCode has a good maven support I might switch 'cause from your descriptions VSCode seems interesting. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/552260/#p552260 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: best accessible IDE
Re: best accessible IDE @7It took me something like a literal day to get used to it. Also, they've added f6 and shift+f6 now, which helps in the situations where you need to move between UI sections.Using VSCode for one file is a waste. It comes into its own when you use it on a project.I thought I would hate it. I did for the first couple hours. There's at least one annoying bug with word navigation. But after that it's so much more productive than literally anything else, that it's worth the annoyances. I think it's hard to appreciate all the things a sighted person gets until you have them yourself in a form that's not a continual pile of headaches, and to my knowledge we haven't really had that before. Yeah there's a learning curve. But they managed to even get accessible autocomplete, and you start being able to jump around in your code and hit f9 to add breakpoints while the program is running without having to memorize line numbers and punch them in somewhere else, and then you get variables in a treeview that you can expand, and if you're in C/C++ there's a console that lets you just type C++ expressions. It also kills the alt-tab fun where you end up with a ton of windows open, you can jump to files by hitting ctrl+p and typing 3 or 4 letters of the name. And suddenly the annoying gets forgiven and that's only a small part of the functionality.Also, they respond to accessibility issues with a really good turnaround time. So if there's something that really bothers you about it that's accessibility, I'd open one.@8Edsharp is sort of fine, until the day it eats your work. And as soon as you start trying to get it to do anything advanced you'll start discovering that it's buggy as hell. Also, it's an unmaintainable mess, so even if someone wanted to fix it they probably couldn't.But Edsharp also isn't an IDE. It maybe does a tenth of what something like VSCode does, if that. To be honest, at your stage of programming you may not actually find an IDE helpful, if only because they're definitely a lot to learn. But they also do a lot, to the point of you typing 3 or 4 letters of a function name and hitting enter and then it reminds you what the parameters are, at least when configured properly.This is going to sound silly, but VSCode made me angry when I first used it because the things in it are things that sighted people have taken for granted for literally 15 years, and the only reason we didn't have them in a convenient form is that no one bothered to care enough about IDE accessibility. We had them for a little while with Eclipse and VS 2008, then the companies behind those stopped caring about it and it went downhill, and even when they did care it was mostly coincidental and not super efficient. Blind people don't generally appreciate why sighted people think it's silly that we use a terminal and a text editor, but we finally have an alternative. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/552239/#p552239 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: best accessible IDE
Re: best accessible IDE
@9Surely it would have been quicker to google than to ask here.@7I was confused when I first used it, so here's a rundown:In VSCode (called Code from here on out), you tend to open folders, rather than files (although you can open single files if you like).There's two main ways to open files: The explorer (Control Shift E), and Search files by name or whatever they call it (Control P like print).When you're in the files, there's a whole load of great ways to get around. Here's my favourites:To jump to specific symbols (class or function definitions and probably other things), press Control Shift O.If you've focused on a line like:print(f(1))With your cursor placed on "f" (which presumably is a function name in your code base), you can press F12 to jump to its definition.You can launch terminals with Control ' (apostrophe), and view all keyboard shortcuts (which you can search) with Control K, Control S. As in, you press Control K, then press Control S.You can move to the next problem or warning with F8, and the previous with Shift F8.If you forget all of these, press Control Shift P, and you get a list (searchable of course) of every command in the program. In that list, search for Python for example. You can select your environment (virtualenv for example), and run various stuff.A useful one in there (that I haven't bothered binding to a hotkey) is show notifications (found by searching for notification or anything less). There you tend to get useful stuff that you only need once, like the offer to install the Python extension when you first open a Python file.I've just started looking into tasks. If you've got a project you're writing in VSCode, it'll put a .vscode folder in the project tree. Here's my tasks.json file as an example, so you can see how I run my example.py file from the build tasks list (Control Shift B):{
// See https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=733558
// for the documentation about the tasks.json format
"version": "2.0.0",
"tasks": [
{
"command": "env\\scripts\\python.exe",
"args": [
"example.py"
],
"type": "shell",
"group": "build",
"label": "Run Example Script",
"problemMatcher": []
}
]
}Finally, extensions (the market place is on Control Shift X) is a great place to find stuff you want to use.Hope this helps.
URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/552187/#p552187
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Re: best accessible IDE
Re: best accessible IDE Hi.Where can I get vs code to try it?Thanks. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/552153/#p552153 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: best accessible IDE
Re: best accessible IDE vs code is best but it lags on some computers which has less spesifications. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/552150/#p552150 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: best accessible IDE
Re: best accessible IDE Does anyone have any videos or tutorials on how to really use VS Code? I tried it a while back, but the interface was so terrible and full of that I just went back to EdSharp. But I would like an editor that is a little more functional than EdSharp, as EdSharp is not an IDE. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/552136/#p552136 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: best accessible IDE
Re: best accessible IDE Does anyone have any videos or tutorials on how to really use VS Code? I tried it a while back, but the interface was so terrible and full of that I just went back to EdSharp. But I would like an editor that is a little more up to date than EdSharp. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/552136/#p552136 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: best accessible IDE
Re: best accessible IDE what about edsharp URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/552128/#p552128 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: best accessible IDE
Re: best accessible IDE I second, third and fourth the VS Code suggestions. I'm blown away by how great it is.For anyone who doesn't know, Microsoft's new Pylance extension is pretty great.Not sure if it brings anything to the table, as I've only just started doing Python from within VSCode, but it's fast enough, and works with virtual environments.I just need to spend some time figuring out tasks, because they look really powerful, I just keep going back to the command line. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/552018/#p552018 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: best accessible IDE
Re: best accessible IDE @3It's possible the VSCode debugger may be able to do things the command lines one can't, w.r.t. threading. Also even if it can't, if you learn it it's faster. Has literally saved me days of work on Synthizer, though for Synthizer there's no good command line debugger for C++ really, so that's not surprising. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/551988/#p551988 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: best accessible IDE
Re: best accessible IDE Personally, I do all of my python development in VS code. The python plugin is great and integrates well with common tools like pylint.The accessibility of VS code is unsurpassed by any other IDE I've tried. For some reason microsoft has started to go further insupporting accessibility than any other major tech company and VS code is no exception.I do all my code editing in VS coe for python and then for running and debugging I still go to command line, since that is what I am used to, but VS code has support for doing that in the editor itself if that is what you prefer. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/551980/#p551980 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: best accessible IDE
Re: best accessible IDE The only one I've bothered with for any length of time is VSCode. To Microsoft's credit they've put a lot of work in and, even with the few bugs it does have, it's much more productive than a terminal and a normal text editor once you learn it. Some people use others, but most others--even Eclipse, which used to be good--have tons and tons of bugs. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/551963/#p551963 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
best accessible IDE
best accessible IDE hey all, so, i want to ask you, what is the best accessible IDE wood you suggest for python and web development?thankyou in advance URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/551952/#p551952 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
