Re: [Aus-soaring] Aero Glass BVLOS

[Nigel Andrews]

Mike wrote - I also have a nagging suspicion that ADSB will be shown to be a
1990 solution to a 21st century problem

 

Yep, like everything in aviation, by the time the ideas become standards
it's all outdated. Also we started with an aged system (1090Mhz high power,
large bandwidth, pulse nightmare, hugely inefficient ) instead of designing
a digital network which could have used existing infrastructure as the
backbone for information updating and when out of range was automatous in
its reporting. Anyway we battle on with what they want.

 

 

 

 

Nigel Andrews

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf
Of Mike Borgelt
Sent: Thursday, 11 February 2016 4:02 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aero Glass BVLOS

 

Of course not everything that flies is going to have ADSB. Good luck getting
the birds to fit them.

I've lost count of the number of times I've seen and noted birds from the
BD-4 while in cruise and got ready to take evasive action.

Nigel correctly points out that 1090MHz is crowded which is why the US has
gone to 978MHz for the smaller aircraft at lower altitudes and a network of
ground stations to link to the 1090 people. These are also used to give
inflight weather updates etc. Something we already have in OZ with Oz
Runways and AvPlan everywhere in cell coverage. Both brilliant programs
giving outstanding situational awareness.

I also have a nagging suspicion that ADSB will be shown to be a 1990
solution to a 21st century problem. Just think how far computers and
communications have come since then. Currently ADSB is being used to make
Air Traffic control easier.

If all aircraft can see each other there isn't all that much need for en
route ATC. I read about a simulation where the traffic density was at least
as dense as Europe's most crowded airspace and the simulated aircraft just
went direct to destination from departure point. 

There were very few conflicts and they were easily resolved by the flight
crews who could electronically see each other. I gather the minor evasive
action didn't cause any knock on conflicts either. We should remember that
the air is much larger than a computer display, 3D not 2D  and aircraft are
very much smaller than the size of the symbols on a display.

Mike




At 12:52 PM 2/11/2016, you wrote:



>>BUT, millions is being spent to solve
this.

I'm just guessing, but I'd be surprised if the Germans did not spend a
bit on their railway signalling and automatic braking system. It
works, but not well enough to prevent trains crashing.

Anyone who has used a modern computer OS would realise that once you
get to a point with any engineered system, whether it be mechanical or
electronic or code, where no one person, team, committee can
understand the whole, then you get problems.

I assume Bronowski was talking about gliding when he wrote "The
personal commitment of a man to his skill, the intellectual commitment
and the emotional commitment working together as one, has made the
ascent of man."

D
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Aero Glass BVLOS

[Mike Borgelt]

Of course not everything that flies is going to have ADSB. Good luck 
getting the birds to fit them.


I've lost count of the number of times I've seen and noted birds from 
the BD-4 while in cruise and got ready to take evasive action.


Nigel correctly points out that 1090MHz is crowded which is why the 
US has gone to 978MHz for the smaller aircraft at lower altitudes and 
a network of ground stations to link to the 1090 people. These are 
also used to give inflight weather updates etc. Something we already 
have in OZ with Oz Runways and AvPlan everywhere in cell coverage. 
Both brilliant programs giving outstanding situational awareness.


I also have a nagging suspicion that ADSB will be shown to be a 1990 
solution to a 21st century problem. Just think how far computers and 
communications have come since then. Currently ADSB is being used to 
make Air Traffic control easier.


If all aircraft can see each other there isn't all that much need for 
en route ATC. I read about a simulation where the traffic density was 
at least as dense as Europe's most crowded airspace and the simulated 
aircraft just went direct to destination from departure point.


There were very few conflicts and they were easily resolved by the 
flight crews who could electronically see each other. I gather the 
minor evasive action didn't cause any knock on conflicts either. We 
should remember that the air is much larger than a computer display, 
3D not 2D  and aircraft are very much smaller than the size of the 
symbols on a display.


Mike




At 12:52 PM 2/11/2016, you wrote:

>>BUT, millions is being spent to solve
this.

I'm just guessing, but I'd be surprised if the Germans did not spend a
bit on their railway signalling and automatic braking system. It
works, but not well enough to prevent trains crashing.

Anyone who has used a modern computer OS would realise that once you
get to a point with any engineered system, whether it be mechanical or
electronic or code, where no one person, team, committee can
understand the whole, then you get problems.

I assume Bronowski was talking about gliding when he wrote "The
personal commitment of a man to his skill, the intellectual commitment
and the emotional commitment working together as one, has made the
ascent of man."

D
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Aero Glass BVLOS

[DMcD]

>>BUT, millions is being spent to solve
this.

I'm just guessing, but I'd be surprised if the Germans did not spend a
bit on their railway signalling and automatic braking system. It
works, but not well enough to prevent trains crashing.

Anyone who has used a modern computer OS would realise that once you
get to a point with any engineered system, whether it be mechanical or
electronic or code, where no one person, team, committee can
understand the whole, then you get problems.

I assume Bronowski was talking about gliding when he wrote "The
personal commitment of a man to his skill, the intellectual commitment
and the emotional commitment working together as one, has made the
ascent of man."

D
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Aero Glass BVLOS

[Nigel Andrews]

Hi All,

As the current CASA requirement stands you can only operate a drone or
pilotless aircraft to visual line of site, i.e. you must be able to observe
the aircraft from the ground ( not cameras fitted to the drone and being
observed on screens on the ground). Also you must stay below 400ft AGL and
other minor requirements for no fly areas. There are exemptions to this but
these are organised between the user and CASA as in the case with Boeing and
alike conducting long distance flights. I am guessing Aero Glass was
operated under these rules :-)

The FAA, CASA, The World are actively investigating implementing technology
that can allow UAV's, drones etc. to operate BVLOS ( Beyond Visual Line of
Sight) I am involved in a company submitting ideas to this effect and have
lodged a patent on some of this technology. Ultimately they would like to
see a passive system, i.e. the drone detects moving objects and gets out of
the road. I can tell you these are not viable to date as demonstrated by the
US navy who gave up on their investment and sort to find out if anyone in
the private sector had a solution. BUT, millions is being spent to solve
this. The problem is the size and power consumption of passive detection and
the ability to completely remove false targets from their detection. LIDAR,
Scanning radar, Image recognition - all being done but nothing has satisfied
the requirement for a full 360 degree observation.

The only other option is to fit everything that flies with an ADS-B out only
solution including the drones. There is a TSO that has been released to
cover such a device and the race is on to build a < $1,000 box, some even
aiming at <$500. This will give you a long range, aircraft compatible ( I.E
those currently fitted with 1090 Mhz boxes will see you )  Also because of
the lower transmit power these things can run on small battery packs or
ships power, ideally on their own battery which is charged by the main power
so in the likelihood there is a power outage the box will still run. A side
benefit is that for a few dollars more these boxes can output received ADS-B
and you can then display them on your screens.

The only real issue is we use 1090 Mhz which is already crowded so some
changes to how often data is sent will need to be looked at and so far it's
all been positive from those concerned ( airservices etc)

I can tell you talks have started at getting this done cheaply here in Aus
with 2 companies pursuing the low cost ADS-B out option in the size of a
cigarette packet - just connect power, external antenna and off it goes (
internal GPS antenna with external option).

The holdup is the slow progress through the authority.

The TSO is TSOC199 - note the exemption for using an approved GPS - a huge
milestone for this development as previously it added thousands to the cost.

Aim of this email is to just bring to all an update on what is happening so
I hope its useful information.

Cheers


Nigel Andrews





-Original Message-
From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf
Of Ross McLean
Sent: Thursday, 11 February 2016 9:41 AM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] . Aero Glass

On a positive note, just think of the enhanced safety with Flarm targets
displayed on the screen.


_
 Ross McLean
 Mobile:   + 61 488 270 105
 Telephone:   + 61 7 4325 4771

-Original Message-
From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf
Of Derek Ruddock
Sent: Thursday, 11 February 2016 8:33 AM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] . Aero Glass

With all that crap in his field of view, he won't be able to spot anything
not equipped with TCAS

-Original Message-
From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf
Of Optusnet
Sent: Tuesday, 9 February 2016 7:28 AM
To: Aus Soaring
Subject: [Aus-soaring] . Aero Glass


https://glass.aero/

I don't know what Scuttermonster or any of the other IT/IS people think of
this stuff but it's got a lot of folks very interested in other facets of
aviation.

I can't wait for them to come out for sailplanes. Once we get the himawari
thermal uplink 1000km will be the norm.

JJ 



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Re: [Aus-soaring] Autonomous soaring

[Richard Frawley]

hence all things will be position alerting, especially small things we cant see.

I might indeed want to fly a ‘remote glider from my ‘office’ when I am 125 
years old




> On 11 Feb 2016, at 12:51 PM, DMcD  wrote:
> 
> Interesting yes, alarming maybe.
> 
> I had always hoped that gliding had no useful purpose and that it was
> something like surfing. that one did just for the sake of it. Not
> something that you could use for killing people.
> 
> To find that the Tactical Electronic Warfare Division of the US Navy
> has come close to solving problems which the rest of us do for fun is
> a little disorientating.
> 
> I can see a point in time where the air is filled so with drones of
> all sorts that recreational "pilots" sit at home wearing VR glass
> goggles and claim to be flying.
> 
> D
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Autonomous soaring

[DMcD]

Interesting yes, alarming maybe.

I had always hoped that gliding had no useful purpose and that it was
something like surfing. that one did just for the sake of it. Not
something that you could use for killing people.

To find that the Tactical Electronic Warfare Division of the US Navy
has come close to solving problems which the rest of us do for fun is
a little disorientating.

I can see a point in time where the air is filled so with drones of
all sorts that recreational "pilots" sit at home wearing VR glass
goggles and claim to be flying.

D
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Re: [Aus-soaring] . Aero Glass

[Richard Frawley]

I think its a safe bet to say that in time, all aircraft (via ADSB or something 
better) will be transmitting constantly. 

They will be visually differentiated in the display and the system will be 
smart about what it displays (only things that are relevant as is the case with 
Flarm today for example)...



> On 11 Feb 2016, at 12:09 PM, Anthony Smith  
> wrote:
> 
> I think it is very cool.  
> 
> However, I wonder if it will increase the risk of not seeing non-flarm
> aircraft (over reliance on the tech)?
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf
> Of Richard Frawley
> Sent: Thursday, 11 February 2016 10:23 AM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> 
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] . Aero Glass
> 
> its gets better 
> 
> as with head positioning the target can highlighted as to the correct
> position relative to the aircraft independently of where you are looking,
> you know very clearly and near instantly where the offending aircraft is
> (reduce acquisition and response time)
> 
> 
> 
>> On 11 Feb 2016, at 10:41 AM, Ross McLean  wrote:
>> 
>> On a positive note, just think of the enhanced safety with Flarm 
>> targets displayed on the screen.
>> 
>> __
>> __
>> _
>> Ross McLean
>> Mobile:   + 61 488 270 105
>> Telephone:   + 61 7 4325 4771
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On 
>> Behalf Of Derek Ruddock
>> Sent: Thursday, 11 February 2016 8:33 AM
>> To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
>> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] . Aero Glass
>> 
>> With all that crap in his field of view, he won't be able to spot 
>> anything not equipped with TCAS
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On 
>> Behalf Of Optusnet
>> Sent: Tuesday, 9 February 2016 7:28 AM
>> To: Aus Soaring
>> Subject: [Aus-soaring] . Aero Glass
>> 
>> 
>> https://glass.aero/
>> 
>> I don't know what Scuttermonster or any of the other IT/IS people 
>> think of this stuff but it's got a lot of folks very interested in 
>> other facets of aviation.
>> 
>> I can't wait for them to come out for sailplanes. Once we get the 
>> himawari thermal uplink 1000km will be the norm.
>> 
>> JJ
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
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Re: [Aus-soaring] . Aero Glass

[Anthony Smith]

I think it is very cool.  

However, I wonder if it will increase the risk of not seeing non-flarm
aircraft (over reliance on the tech)?

-Original Message-
From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf
Of Richard Frawley
Sent: Thursday, 11 February 2016 10:23 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.

Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] . Aero Glass

its gets better 

as with head positioning the target can highlighted as to the correct
position relative to the aircraft independently of where you are looking,
you know very clearly and near instantly where the offending aircraft is
(reduce acquisition and response time)



> On 11 Feb 2016, at 10:41 AM, Ross McLean  wrote:
> 
> On a positive note, just think of the enhanced safety with Flarm 
> targets displayed on the screen.
> 
> __
> __
> _
>  Ross McLean
>  Mobile:   + 61 488 270 105
> Telephone:   + 61 7 4325 4771
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On 
> Behalf Of Derek Ruddock
> Sent: Thursday, 11 February 2016 8:33 AM
> To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] . Aero Glass
> 
> With all that crap in his field of view, he won't be able to spot 
> anything not equipped with TCAS
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On 
> Behalf Of Optusnet
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 February 2016 7:28 AM
> To: Aus Soaring
> Subject: [Aus-soaring] . Aero Glass
> 
> 
> https://glass.aero/
> 
> I don't know what Scuttermonster or any of the other IT/IS people 
> think of this stuff but it's got a lot of folks very interested in 
> other facets of aviation.
> 
> I can't wait for them to come out for sailplanes. Once we get the 
> himawari thermal uplink 1000km will be the norm.
> 
> JJ
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Autonomous soaring

[Mike Borgelt]

Thanks for that, Matt.

Very interesting article.

Mike

At 08:45 PM 2/10/2016, you wrote:

First 100km task flown autonomously (and all below 4000ft)

A commercial off-the-shelf RnR Products SBXC sailplane was outfitted 
as a UAV and performed more than 100 test flights of the ALOFT 
algorithm, with a nominal endurance of 3 min after a winchlaunch to 
approximately 100 m altitude. A notable success was unofficially 
breaking the cross-country soaring goal-and-return world record by 
flying 97.2 km (60.4 mi) declared distance over approximately 4.55 
hr. Best endurance demonstrated by the algorithm was 5.3 hr and best 
range demonstrated by the algorithm was 113.4 km (70.47 mi) open 
distance. There was no motor on the ALOFT sailplane for any of these 
flights, so all the endurance and range performance clearly came 
from flying in thermals


http://www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=ADA614555


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Re: [Aus-soaring] . Aero Glass

[Richard Frawley]

its gets better 

as with head positioning the target can highlighted as to the correct position 
relative to the aircraft independently of where you are looking, you know very 
clearly and near instantly where the offending aircraft is (reduce acquisition 
and response time)



> On 11 Feb 2016, at 10:41 AM, Ross McLean  wrote:
> 
> On a positive note, just think of the enhanced safety with Flarm targets
> displayed on the screen.
> 
> 
> _ 
>  Ross McLean
>  Mobile:   + 61 488 270 105
> Telephone:   + 61 7 4325 4771
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf
> Of Derek Ruddock
> Sent: Thursday, 11 February 2016 8:33 AM
> To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
> Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] . Aero Glass
> 
> With all that crap in his field of view, he won't be able to spot anything
> not equipped with TCAS
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf
> Of Optusnet
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 February 2016 7:28 AM
> To: Aus Soaring
> Subject: [Aus-soaring] . Aero Glass
> 
> 
> https://glass.aero/
> 
> I don't know what Scuttermonster or any of the other IT/IS people think of
> this stuff but it's got a lot of folks very interested in other facets of
> aviation.
> 
> I can't wait for them to come out for sailplanes. Once we get the himawari
> thermal uplink 1000km will be the norm.
> 
> JJ 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad
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Re: [Aus-soaring] . Aero Glass

[Ross McLean]

On a positive note, just think of the enhanced safety with Flarm targets
displayed on the screen.


_ 
 Ross McLean
 Mobile:   + 61 488 270 105
 Telephone:   + 61 7 4325 4771

-Original Message-
From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf
Of Derek Ruddock
Sent: Thursday, 11 February 2016 8:33 AM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] . Aero Glass

With all that crap in his field of view, he won't be able to spot anything
not equipped with TCAS

-Original Message-
From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf
Of Optusnet
Sent: Tuesday, 9 February 2016 7:28 AM
To: Aus Soaring
Subject: [Aus-soaring] . Aero Glass


https://glass.aero/

I don't know what Scuttermonster or any of the other IT/IS people think of
this stuff but it's got a lot of folks very interested in other facets of
aviation.

I can't wait for them to come out for sailplanes. Once we get the himawari
thermal uplink 1000km will be the norm.

JJ 



Sent from my iPad
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Re: [Aus-soaring] . Aero Glass

[Derek Ruddock]

With all that crap in his field of view, he won't be able to spot anything
not equipped with TCAS

-Original Message-
From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf
Of Optusnet
Sent: Tuesday, 9 February 2016 7:28 AM
To: Aus Soaring
Subject: [Aus-soaring] . Aero Glass


https://glass.aero/

I don't know what Scuttermonster or any of the other IT/IS people think of
this stuff but it's got a lot of folks very interested in other facets of
aviation.

I can't wait for them to come out for sailplanes. Once we get the himawari
thermal uplink 1000km will be the norm.

JJ 



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[Aus-soaring] Fw: new message

[Antonio Di Pietro]

Hey!

 

Open message 

 

Antonio Di Pietro

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[Aus-soaring] Autonomous soaring

[Matthew Scutter]

First 100km task flown autonomously (and all below 4000ft)

A commercial off-the-shelf RnR Products SBXC sailplane was outfitted as a
UAV and performed more than 100 test flights of the ALOFT algorithm, with a
nominal endurance of 3 min after a winchlaunch to approximately 100 m
altitude. A notable success was unofficially breaking the cross-country
soaring goal-and-return world record by flying 97.2 km (60.4 mi) declared
distance over approximately 4.55 hr. Best endurance demonstrated by the
algorithm was 5.3 hr and best range demonstrated by the algorithm was 113.4
km (70.47 mi) open distance. There was no motor on the ALOFT sailplane for
any of these flights, so all the endurance and range performance clearly
came from flying in thermals

http://www.dtic.mil/get-tr-doc/pdf?AD=ADA614555
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