Re: [Aus-soaring] Where to from here?
How about hanging by the neck until (you, us,we,they)cheer up? JR - Original Message - From: Mike Borgelt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Wednesday, October 22, 2008 2:05 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Where to from here? At 01:36 PM 22/10/2008, you wrote: But Mike, in the land of the free, where they do everything you espouse, they are suffering from a declining gliding population too, so your proposals do not address the issues either. Last I heard the SSA had increased its membership(it is purely voluntary as there is no legal coercion to join). Their magazine seems vastly improved and since the arrest of the last bent SSA official, morale seems high. My contacts tell me that there is increased interest in soaring as fuel costs have gone up. It is much easier for power pilots to transition to gliders as the licence structure is the same (and I've never heard a word from anyone in the USA suggesting the SSA go to the Australian/British/NZ self administration model). On a per capita basis soaring has never been as popular as power flying in the US compared to elsewhere probably because of the previous easy accessibility and relatively low cost of power flying in the US. I suspect that much the same holds here as you only need to look at the rapidly growing recreational sector here. Most seem to want to just get off the ground. They don't care if there's an engine out front but my point is that for those who do want to fly gliders, better, faster training will get them there quicker and more likely retain them even if much of it isn't done in sailplanes. This has the potential to take the training load off the club scene which currently is a vast effort and expense for essentially little to no gain. Just don't expect people who have had the freedoms of a PPL or RAAus certificate to be impressed by the GFA nanny state. If you've got a better plan let's hear it. The floggings will continue until morale improves isn't a plan. Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 Int'l + 61 429 355784 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] where to put the water
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 11:03 AM, tom claffey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can't reach baggage in flight in 28 now, so no real difference, sandwich and camelback will have to go beside/behind seatback - no real problem, PLENTY of room! [unlike dwarf model Schemmp!] Tom Ahh yes Tom, but your aircraft is not classed as a dwarf model 28 ;-) Chris ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Winch Design
Would anyone out there like to make informed comment upon winch design. We are in the early stages of upgrading our 25 year old winch, This winch has performend well and will be our base line for any new design. It suffers from having 40 and 50 year old components which makes it difficult to source spares. We average about 1100 launches per year. I have suggested a number of topics for consideration. Rope or wire Single or double drum Diesel or petrol Trailer or truck mounted Wide or narrow drum Use of independant motor or prime mover with PTO Source of PTO Retreive winch or self laying or tow out vehicles? Braking of drum(s) during tow out. Guillotine Use of commercial components for cable guide system. Budget Regards Colin C ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Winch Design
Take a look at www.skylaunchuk.com They re-engineer old winches, and may be able to offer advice or even supply the necessary parts, even though they are in the UK. We visited their factory recently, and saw their winches in action at a number of sites. The retrieve winch system is super efficient, and you really only need a single drum winch. They supply their Skylaunch winches with LPG engines, and get a smoother operation than with diesel. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Colin Campbell Sent: Wednesday, 22 October 2008 7:07 PM To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: [Aus-soaring] Winch Design Would anyone out there like to make informed comment upon winch design. We are in the early stages of upgrading our 25 year old winch, This winch has performend well and will be our base line for any new design. It suffers from having 40 and 50 year old components which makes it difficult to source spares. We average about 1100 launches per year. I have suggested a number of topics for consideration. Rope or wire Single or double drum Diesel or petrol Trailer or truck mounted Wide or narrow drum Use of independant motor or prime mover with PTO Source of PTO Retreive winch or self laying or tow out vehicles? Braking of drum(s) during tow out. Guillotine Use of commercial components for cable guide system. Budget Regards Colin C ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Winch Design
have a look at this link so you don't have to re-invent the wheel: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/winchdesign/ have you got any pictures of the old winch? all the best Erich On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 7:06 PM, Colin Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would anyone out there like to make informed comment upon winch design. We are in the early stages of upgrading our 25 year old winch, This winch has performend well and will be our base line for any new design. It suffers from having 40 and 50 year old components which makes it difficult to source spares. We average about 1100 launches per year. I have suggested a number of topics for consideration. Rope or wire Single or double drum Diesel or petrol Trailer or truck mounted Wide or narrow drum Use of independant motor or prime mover with PTO Source of PTO Retreive winch or self laying or tow out vehicles? Braking of drum(s) during tow out. Guillotine Use of commercial components for cable guide system. Budget Regards Colin C ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Winch Design
Colin Campbell wrote: Would anyone out there like to make informed comment upon winch design. There is a Yahoo group (http://au.groups.yahoo.com/) called winchengineer which would be of interest to you. If you look in the files section of the group there are a number of documents including one called Building a Winch? Design considerations (The filename is Winch construction paper.pdf). Hope this helps, Michael ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Winch Design
...and have a look at http://www.hydrostart.nl/english/ THE benchmark winch. Comes with a beer crate! I asked about the existing winch pictures to get an idea what you used so far and what must have done the job without breaking the budget. Erich On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 7:06 PM, Colin Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would anyone out there like to make informed comment upon winch design. We are in the early stages of upgrading our 25 year old winch, This winch has performend well and will be our base line for any new design. It suffers from having 40 and 50 year old components which makes it difficult to source spares. We average about 1100 launches per year. I have suggested a number of topics for consideration. Rope or wire Single or double drum Diesel or petrol Trailer or truck mounted Wide or narrow drum Use of independant motor or prime mover with PTO Source of PTO Retreive winch or self laying or tow out vehicles? Braking of drum(s) during tow out. Guillotine Use of commercial components for cable guide system. Budget Regards Colin C ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Winch Design
Ask Harry Medlicott as he has one under way as and is using the Danish rope which Tost sell. If you can go retrieve winch then it saves wear on strip and avoids towouts which tend to be old cars BUT an extra operator on retrieve winch. You get what you pay for - 20+ years ago Barry Renford got a dual drum winch new which cost more than a Pawnee and I believe it may still be going.Ian M 2008/10/22 Colin Campbell [EMAIL PROTECTED] Would anyone out there like to make informed comment upon winch design. We are in the early stages of upgrading our 25 year old winch, This winch has performend well and will be our base line for any new design. It suffers from having 40 and 50 year old components which makes it difficult to source spares. We average about 1100 launches per year. I have suggested a number of topics for consideration. Rope or wire Single or double drumd Diesel or petrol Trailer or truck mounted Wide or narrow drum Use of independant motor or prime mover with PTO Source of PTO Retreive winch or self laying or tow out vehicles? Braking of drum(s) during tow out. Guillotine Use of commercial components for cable guide system. Budget Regards Colin C ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Narromine Cup Week and Grand Prix
Were to from here ? off gliding I for two weeks yahoo :) How many from this group are going to Narromine Cup Week. 23 - 29 November 2008 How many are coming up to the Grand Prix 30th November until the 6th of December off list is ok [EMAIL PROTECTED] Regards Mal 0411 196 255 ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Where to from here?
Adam So when are you going to tell us all??? REX Captain at age 24 - this never happened in the good old days. I can still remember my first flight and Mr (Charles) Arthur Butler walked down the plane and signed out tickets of all the kids on board and all his pilots flew in WW2. Macca 2008/10/22 Adam Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] Amen to that, I know one guy who became an instructor for two months. Once he saw all his mates going off having XC fun, while he was stuck in the back seat of a two seater. Obviously this guy gave the instructing up! He did however continue to contribute to the sport by doing Form2's for the club, lead and follows (now called coaching), treasurer, etc.. I guess it all comes down to cutting the big rubber band from the airfield before the XC bug really hits! Having said that, I know someone who is the most competitive and driven person in the sky, hates to loose. However, when there on the waves surfing, they like nothing more than 'hanging 10' on the front of there longboard while others carve it up infront of them! ie, without a competitive bone in their body while surfing. So I guess it all comes down to 'each to their own'. In my mind I think, why would anyone want to float around the home airfield or fly a wooden aircraft!! haha, sorry. But for someone else, they'd look at my flying (high performance machines and racing) and think, why would anyone like to spoil the extasy of just going gliding/soaring.. As Gleb (from The Sunship Game movie) said in the 1970 US Nationals, From childhood it was always a beautiful thing, I used to make model airplanes. I'd much prefer handlaunch gliders always, I find beauty in everything. I find competition not beautiful, your storming that thing through air where it's all shaking, I find it grueling, difficult, wasteful of beauty. Regards WPP Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2008 03:39:10 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Where to from here? I was talking about the implication that your 80% were too smart to do instructing - I wasn't implying they don't contribute in other ways, just that (you say) they consciously decide to leave instructing to others so they can fly more themselves. I believe they have kept their eye on the big picture, know what it is really want and not become a prisoner of the Instructors Roster Generally the way to become a prisoner of any roster is to not have enough others on the roster? I think we're all entitled to retire eventually, or even just take a sabbatical. But somebody has to do it. R. -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] For a Good Cause
Ultimately about the only people blocked by the filter will be the same woefully technically inept group that think the 75M will achieve anything in the first place. Both the kids and the apparent plague of paedophiles will have no problems in bypassing what will be seen as little more than a minor inconvenience. Meanwhile the rest of us have to put up with all the extra nonsense generated by the great wall oops.. filter of China oops again ... Australia. About the only function which it will be of any use for is filtering vocal opposition to the reining gubbermint of the day. Mark Newton wrote: On 22/10/2008, at 9:59 AM, D S Baker wrote: Will the government block one of the best ways of keeping secure online because they are also a way of getting around the filter? No, they'll do a completely inept, worthless job. And, according to their budget papers, it'll cost about $75m. - mark I tried an internal modem,[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] but it hurt when I walked. Mark Newton - Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82231777 - ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring - ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Where to from here?
Thanks Macca, Sort of jumping the gun there, and sort of not too! I passed my Line Check for the Captains seat on Tuesday, only my Simulator check to go then they'll give me the fourth bar for my shoulders.. This all happens on Saturday! Can't wait, feel like I know the flying/procedures/regs like I know my name at the moment + a feeling of being totally relaxed about it. My gliding sports psychology is really helping me out at the moment :) My Line Check debrief comments from the check pilot if your interested (I'm quite proud of these and of my whole command upgrade training record/folder).. * A very good Check to Line for Adam. Very well prepared. * Planning and briefs (emergency) excellent. * SOPs to a very good standard. * Make sure checklist call is completed on RNAV earlier (was a silly mistake on first sector) * Items in check focus to a satisfactory standard I got an average of 4 out of 5 for the 19 scored sections. Fingers crossed I nail the sim as good as the line check! Regards, WPP Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:32:50 +1100From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Re: [Aus-soaring] Where to from here?AdamSo when are you going to tell us all??? REX Captain at age 24 - this never happened in the good old days. I can still remember my first flight and Mr (Charles) Arthur Butler walked down the plane and signed out tickets of all the kids on board and all his pilots flew in WW2.Macca _ ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] For a Good Cause
At 11:21 PM 22/10/2008, you wrote: Ultimately about the only people blocked by the filter will be the same woefully technically inept group that think the 75M will achieve anything in the first place. Both the kids and the apparent plague of paedophiles will have no problems in bypassing what will be seen as little more than a minor inconvenience. Meanwhile the rest of us have to put up with all the extra nonsense generated by the great wall oops.. filter of China oops again ... Australia. About the only function which it will be of any use for is filtering vocal opposition to the reining gubbermint of the day. So we're going to spend A$75 Million on something totally ineffective. That's a bargain compared to the ETS which will be not only ineffective but positively harmful. Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 Int'l + 61 429 355784 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 61, Issue 47
That's a bargain compared to the ETS which will be not only ineffective but positively harmful. Drinking the denialist kool-aid eh?. Why cant you accept the fact that most of the rest of the world thinks you are simply wrong in your denials. Even the most intellectually challenged, such as GW Bush John Howard( long time deniers), accept it now. I guess we still have flat earthers and libertarians too. The denialist's technique (Most ridiculous example amongst many being the scientist lie to get funding!) is now well documented, and at best is seen as a distraction from a very serious reality. While I am at it Mike whilst I have problems with the Gliding system, I have generally found instructors to be of a good standard. Whist some have had bad attitudes, they were at least competent. regards Dave L _ ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 61, Issue 47
At 08:21 AM 23/10/2008, you wrote: That's a bargain compared to the ETS which will be not only ineffective but positively harmful. Even if I believed that a little extra CO2 was a problem I'd be worried about an ETS that is simply going to move the generation offshore where the amount of CO2 per useful unit of energy is likely to be higher than in Australia. I'm happy to support a 50% + reduction in Australian CO2 emissions by 2023. This is simple to do and completely within current technological capabilities. Just replace all coal fired base load electricity generation with nuclear, build extra capacity to replace the peak load gas fired turbines and shed the extra to water desalinators when not required for the grid. When I see this plan being pushed by the greenies we'll all know they are serious. Your ignorance can be cured with a little study. Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 Int'l + 61 429 355784 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 61, Issue 47
At 08:21 AM 23/10/2008, you wrote: While I am at it Mike whilst I have problems with the Gliding system, I have generally found instructors to be of a good standard. Whist some have had bad attitudes, they were at least competent. So why are they seen so frequently in the accidents? Along with students who have just been checked out? It likely isn't that what they are teaching is wrong but that the teaching is ineffective or incomplete. How much formal classroom instruction and written examinations do gliding instructors undergo? Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 Int'l + 61 429 355784 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 61, Issue 47
On 23/10/2008, at 10:16 AM, Mike Borgelt wrote: So why are they seen so frequently in the accidents? Might it be because they're a self-selected population of people who fly more often, and hence expose themselves to risks more often? It likely isn't that what they are teaching is wrong but that the teaching is ineffective or incomplete. Entirely possible, Mike. But how does switching to a different administrative system help? And do you think that the CASA syllabus is effective and complete? It must have some gaps in it, otherwise light twins wouldn't do wheels-ups on the main runway at Adelaide International; and B737 drivers wouldn't file a couple of incident reports per year about go-arounds after accidentally lining up for final approach on Anzac Highway. What would you do to make it effective and complete other than switch it to a different administrative system? - mark I tried an internal modem,[EMAIL PROTECTED] but it hurt when I walked. Mark Newton - Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82231777 - ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Narromine Cup Week and Grand Prix
There's 20 going from Southern Cross, with 13 gliders J 6 of them are staying for 2 weeks too. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mal Bruce Sent: Wednesday, 22 October 2008 10:21 PM To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: [Aus-soaring] Narromine Cup Week and Grand Prix Were to from here ? off gliding I for two weeks yahoo :) How many from this group are going to Narromine Cup Week. 23 - 29 November 2008 How many are coming up to the Grand Prix 30th November until the 6th of December off list is ok mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Regards Mal 0411 196 255 No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.2/1738 - Release Date: 21/10/2008 2:10 PM ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Aus-soaring Digest, Vol 61, Issue 47
Not forgetting the only way to make flying completely safe is to ban it completely Training that doesn't demonstrate how to avoid and if all else fails to recover from situations that kill many would be lacking. The idea being that the instructor through greater experience will prevent the situation getting beyond them and react in more than enough time. Should an instructor fail to do so does not mean the system is broken, but that the particular instructor pushed their own abilities too far. During my training the thing that was drummed home more than anything else was to act to take control long before a situation was getting away from me. btw: I have lost many more friends through sailing than I have through gliding (note I say friends as effectively removes the numbers participating from the comparison) . On 23/10/2008, at 11:19 , Mark Newton wrote: On 23/10/2008, at 10:16 AM, Mike Borgelt wrote: So why are they seen so frequently in the accidents? Might it be because they're a self-selected population of people who fly more often, and hence expose themselves to risks more often? It likely isn't that what they are teaching is wrong but that the teaching is ineffective or incomplete. Entirely possible, Mike. But how does switching to a different administrative system help? And do you think that the CASA syllabus is effective and complete? It must have some gaps in it, otherwise light twins wouldn't do wheels-ups on the main runway at Adelaide International; and B737 drivers wouldn't file a couple of incident reports per year about go-arounds after accidentally lining up for final approach on Anzac Highway. What would you do to make it effective and complete other than switch it to a different administrative system? - mark I tried an internal modem,[EMAIL PROTECTED] but it hurt when I walked. Mark Newton - Voice: +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82231777 - ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] discount for senior members
Another thought I had was a new discounted GFA membership category for seniors, in particular those who recieve the Centrelink aged pension and have retired from flying for reasons of health , but wish to stay involved in airworthiness with pehaps an occasional 2 seater ride. This would help keep the irreplaceable knowledge of our older members in the system, particularly as our membership ages, and clubs look to volunteer maintenance to keep costs down. For the first time I can remember, as of this year, as far as I know, all club gliders in SA will be maintained (Form 2) by volunteers. A great idea David! I was just speaking to one of our club members (still a full club member, attending weekly meetings) who stopped flying for health reasons, and wanted to continue GFA membership - but couldn't justify the cost, so let it lapse. I think there are several members of our club who would re-join the GFA if there was a discounted 'seniors' rate. There are also many who would welcome the cost-reduction as they only keep their GFA membership for the benefit of our club. It is these members who (understandably) raised the most opposition to the price increase. Don't get me wrong, I think that GFA staff and board members are helpful and doing a job which many of us could not do (or would not do). And a lot of it at their cost. I agree wholeheartedly, my issues of concern relate only to the nature system, not the volunteer people who currently administer it, who I am sure put in considerable time, effort and money into helping administer our sport. Absolutely! Well done and thank you to all the volunteers who help to keep gliding going! Regards, Kym Z. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] linking SPOT to CENSAR
Having bought a SPOT satellite tracker, I'm now wondering how to best use it in conjunction with CENSAR, the SARTIME services manager at Air Services Australia. Currently, when I fly from my Gippsland property via self-launching glider, usually over a big slab of the Alps tiger country, I rely on submitting a flight plan to CENSAR with a planned route and a note saying operations within 20nm of track. I also lodge a SARTIME. If I vary the route, I sometimes call up FLIGHTWATCH and amend my details. Often I don't. Thus, I am reliant on the SARTIME and a big area of bush to search should things go pear-shaped. I also carry a 406 EPIRB (that bush looks awful dense down there). Now, with SPOT, my wife can have full details of where I've been and are now located. She of course can pass this on the CENSAR when they call her if I'm overdue or don't cancel my SARTIME. However, it would seem logical that this info be part of my SARTIME data so CENSAR can (a) get going quickly without relying on reaching my wife and (b) see where I am and if I am still moving. My questions are these: 1) Is anyone in GFA discussing integrating SPOT into the SARTIME process at CENSAR (ie so I could lodge SPOT details with my flight plan)? 2) What sort of issues do people see if this does occur? One issue that comes to mind is the passing of track data to CASA who might feel inclined to use it against me. I certainly would not trust them not to. Note that it may well not be the gliding movement that ends up pushing SPOT integration into CENSAR as the same benefits ought to be clear to our powered brethren who are also looking down the barrel of buying a new 406 EPIRB once the old ones get turned off next year. All comments and ideas welcome. John Gwyther/GCV VH-HKR and VH-ZAO ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Where to from here?
Not denigrating Adam's achievements, but what does 1,2 3 bars denote in the commercial aviation industry, and are there 5th or 6th bars? The fourth level of officerdom elsewhere, usually has large and varied management, supervision etc. responsibilities attached. Love watching the pilots with their brilliant epaulets hefting luggage at regional airports :-) But if the bars engender the confidence of the flying public in aviation it has got to be good. When I came to gliding, with the usual consumers' expectations, after the primal shock of the launch, the secondary shock was the sartorial presentation of those I had entrusted my life to. Being a bit of a grotty hobby farmer I was able to cope with it, but others? Dunno where this fits into Where to from here? Tongue in cheek Chris McDonnell - Original Message - From: Adam Woolley To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 12:06 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Where to from here? Thanks Macca, Sort of jumping the gun there, and sort of not too! I passed my Line Check for the Captains seat on Tuesday, only my Simulator check to go then they'll give me the fourth bar for my shoulders.. This all happens on Saturday! Can't wait, feel like I know the flying/procedures/regs like I know my name at the moment + a feeling of being totally relaxed about it. My gliding sports psychology is really helping me out at the moment :) My Line Check debrief comments from the check pilot if your interested (I'm quite proud of these and of my whole command upgrade training record/folder).. * A very good Check to Line for Adam. Very well prepared. * Planning and briefs (emergency) excellent. * SOPs to a very good standard. * Make sure checklist call is completed on RNAV earlier (was a silly mistake on first sector) * Items in check focus to a satisfactory standard I got an average of 4 out of 5 for the 19 scored sections. Fingers crossed I nail the sim as good as the line check! Regards, WPP -- Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:32:50 +1100 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Where to from here? Adam So when are you going to tell us all??? REX Captain at age 24 - this never happened in the good old days. I can still remember my first flight and Mr (Charles) Arthur Butler walked down the plane and signed out tickets of all the kids on board and all his pilots flew in WW2. Macca -- -- ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] linking SPOT to CENSAR
John, You have to have a realist look at what SPOT is - it is a private network tracking device - the concept is not new, what is new with SPOT is the price point - this unit is now priced where recreational people of many disciplines find them affordable and I predict that SPOT is the first of many we will see in the near future. As I have said the concept is not new, I have been trialing a similar device called Tracplus http://www.tracplus.com/index.aspx for work - the unit I have been flying is Mil Spec and therefore priced out of reach of most recreational uses. SPOT offers a service to their clients as does Tracplus - this is service contract is between SPOT and their clients, nothing to do with CENSAR or anyone else. HOWEVER if you become overdue for any reason it is up to the person or organization maintaining your SAR (and I do not believe SPOT does that) to contact the correct authorities, and the correct authorities will depend on what activity you're undertaking under the National SAR Plan. As I understand it SPOT also has a distress alerting function, and as I understand it they have taken on the responsibility to notify the correct authorities when they receive an alert who will then follow their procedures - these procedures vary from country to country. SPOT v PLB - the PLB does not offer tracking and all the fun and benefits that can be derived from that. The PLB does not provide last known position - if in fact the last SPOT report was the last known position - very valuable information is you go missing. 406 PLB does alert the Government SAR authorities directly when activated and continues to report until turned off (or the batteries run out which should not happen) Flight Planning - you could fill the details into Field 18 of the flight plan - it could be very useful information. The bottle line is read the SPOT documentation if you are happy with the product go for it. SDF _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Gwyther Sent: Thursday, 23 October 2008 1:10 PM To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: [Aus-soaring] linking SPOT to CENSAR Having bought a SPOT satellite tracker, I'm now wondering how to best use it in conjunction with CENSAR, the SARTIME services manager at Air Services Australia. Currently, when I fly from my Gippsland property via self-launching glider, usually over a big slab of the Alps tiger country, I rely on submitting a flight plan to CENSAR with a planned route and a note saying operations within 20nm of track. I also lodge a SARTIME. If I vary the route, I sometimes call up FLIGHTWATCH and amend my details. Often I don't. Thus, I am reliant on the SARTIME and a big area of bush to search should things go pear-shaped. I also carry a 406 EPIRB (that bush looks awful dense down there). Now, with SPOT, my wife can have full details of where I've been and are now located. She of course can pass this on the CENSAR when they call her if I'm overdue or don't cancel my SARTIME. However, it would seem logical that this info be part of my SARTIME data so CENSAR can (a) get going quickly without relying on reaching my wife and (b) see where I am and if I am still moving. My questions are these: 1) Is anyone in GFA discussing integrating SPOT into the SARTIME process at CENSAR (ie so I could lodge SPOT details with my flight plan)? 2) What sort of issues do people see if this does occur? One issue that comes to mind is the passing of track data to CASA who might feel inclined to use it against me. I certainly would not trust them not to. Note that it may well not be the gliding movement that ends up pushing SPOT integration into CENSAR as the same benefits ought to be clear to our powered brethren who are also looking down the barrel of buying a new 406 EPIRB once the old ones get turned off next year. All comments and ideas welcome. John Gwyther/GCV VH-HKR and VH-ZAO ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Where to from here?
I was with the proprietor of an aviation business a while back when he bought a couple of three bar epaulettes for one of his junior instructor/charter pilots because the customers thought he looked too young. Cheers Phil Christopher Mc Donnell wrote: Not denigrating Adam's achievements, but what does 1,2 3 bars denote in the commercial aviation industry, andare there 5th or 6th bars? The fourth level of "officerdom" elsewhere, usually has large and varied management, supervisionetc. responsibilitiesattached. Love watching the pilots with theirbrilliantepaulets hefting luggage at regional airports :-) But ifthe barsengender the confidence of the flying public in aviation it has got to be good. WhenI came to gliding, with the usual consumers' expectations, after theprimal shock of the launch, the secondary shock was the sartorial presentation of those I had entrusted my life to. Being a bit of a grotty hobby farmer I was able to cope with it, but others? Dunno where this fits into "Where to from here"? Tongue in cheek Chris McDonnell - Original Message - From: Adam Woolley To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Sent: Thursday, October 23, 2008 12:06 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Where to from here? Thanks Macca, Sort of jumping the gun there,and sort of not too! I passed my Line Check for the Captains seat on Tuesday, only my Simulator check to go then they'll give me the fourth bar for my shoulders.. This all happens on Saturday! Can't wait, feel like I know theflying/procedures/regslike I know my name at the moment + a feeling of being totally relaxed about it. My gliding sports psychology is really helping me out at the moment :) My Line Check debrief comments from the check pilot if your interested (I'm quite proud of these and of my whole command upgrade training record/folder).. * A very good Check to Line for Adam. Very well prepared. * Planning and briefs (emergency) excellent. * SOPs to a very good standard. * Make sure checklist call is completed on RNAV earlier (was a silly mistake on first sector) * Items in check focus to a satisfactory standard I got an average of 4 out of 5 for the 19 scored sections. Fingers crossed I nail the sim as good as the line check! Regards, WPP Date: Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:32:50 +1100 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Where to from here? Adam So when are you going to tell us all??? REX Captain at age 24 - this never happened in the good old days. I can still remember my first flight and Mr (Charles) Arthur Butler walked down the plane and signed out tickets of all the kids on board and all his pilots flew in WW2. Macca ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring -- Phil McCann Try Gliding http://www.bendigogliding.org.au/ ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Sartorial elegance in gliding....
Beige is a safe, comforting and non-threatening colour, that is why it features so much with the OFITTH set. Other objects that are beige: Old ugg boots Arrowroot biscuits Yo-Yo biscuits Milky Tea The Murray A terry towelling hat after it has blown off your head and landed on the ground a couple of times Stubble paddocks viewed from above An unwashed ES59 Arrow Runs and hides ;-) P.S. Think I'll go gliding this weekend. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Where to from here?
At 02:16 PM 23/10/2008, you wrote: I was with the proprietor of an aviation business a while back when he bought a couple of three bar epaulettes for one of his junior instructor/charter pilots because the customers thought he looked too young. Cheers Phil IIRC some years back Dick Smith had to ferry an aircraft through Japan. He got some epaulettes made with 5 stripes and received very deferential treatment. Mike Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 Int'l + 61 429 355784 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] linking SPOT to CENSAR
- Stuart Kerri Ferguson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John, You have to have a realist look at what SPOT is – it is a private network tracking device – the concept is not new, what is new with SPOT is the price point – this unit is now priced where recreational people of many disciplines find them affordable and I predict that SPOT is the first of many we will see in the near future. As I have said the concept is not new, I have been trialing a similar device called “”Tracplus” http://www.tracplus.com/index.aspx for work – the unit I have been flying is Mil Spec and therefore priced out of reach of most recreational uses. Yes systems like Tracplus use the same internals (in fact some of them use the same boards). There are a few around. Most though, as you said are high priced, but not just high price per unit, it usually also requires a service side. None of them that I know of include emergency tracking (ie there is no one listening at the other end except the company who purchased it). SPOT offers a service to their clients as does Tracplus – this is service contract is between SPOT and their clients, nothing to do with CENSAR or anyone else. HOWEVER if you become overdue for any reason it is up to the person or organization maintaining your SAR (and I do not believe SPOT does that) to No SPOT does not, which is why John was suggesting that CENSAR do. contact the correct authorities, and the correct authorities will depend on what activity you’re undertaking under the National SAR Plan. As I understand it SPOT also has a distress alerting function, and as I understand it they have taken on the responsibility to notify the correct authorities when they receive an alert who will then follow their procedures – these procedures vary from country to country. Yes, SPOT the company will only currently step in if you actually press the emergency button. What is being suggested here, is that as part of your flight plan, you also give them your SPOT (how, that is to be decided, but you could at least provide the public URL). Then they can check this data to see where you are if you are overdue. SPOT v PLB – the PLB does not offer tracking and all the fun and benefits that can be derived from that. The PLB does not provide last known position – if in fact the last SPOT report was the last known position – very valuable information is you go missing. I think this is particular important for gliding and possibly other flying. If you have a crash, you are not going to be in a position to push the emergency button. I like the idea that even if I destroy a spot during a forced landing that my last position from 10 minutes ago will still be recorded. They are exploiting that very function in NZ now in the dangerous areas of the South Island. I believe that if they have not heard form you for even 60 minutes they start looking. 406 PLB does alert the Government SAR authorities directly when activated and continues to report until turned off (or the batteries run out which should not happen) Yes - there is an agency that does that. SPOT is really one step removed, they monitor it, and call the appropriate agency in Australia - so you get the same service in the end. It is the tracking that is different, as you mentioned. Flight Planning – you could fill the details into Field 18 of the flight plan – it could be very useful information. Ahh perfect, I didn't know that existed. The bottle line is read the SPOT documentation if you are happy with the product go for it. The idea of integrating tracking solutions (and it should not be just one, but open for competition) into flight plan is a good one and I think we should (slowly over time) pursue it. Thanks Scott ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
