Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA matters
Hi David, Read your stuff. Good on you for taking the time to read mine. Are you in the legal profession coz you sound just like you are. Aus -soaring gives everyone to put their point of views. Good stuff I reckon as it allows people the opportunity to state their case and get things off their chests. Smart arses like you just love pulling peoples comments apart as if you believe you are right and nobody else should have a view. No wonder the discussion on Aus -Soaring is only accessed by a few, people don't contribute because you and some others want to bully people into your own beliefs and won't even take an objective position. I've written plenty of final paragraphs to this piece, each one expressing how I feel, but I have deleted them as I'm controlling my thoughts about your sarcastic and bitter comments. Ah, stuff it, just two words are needed. Ian P - Original Message - From: David Lawley To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA matters Hi all, Harry Meldicotts post sums up the issue brilliantly, and succintly, I wish I could have put it that well! Highlight for me was; Credulity is stretched by those who seek to justify this position. Arguments such as we know best, can't trust the members to elect the right people given to me by a former Executive member or if you are interested in how things are run, then get yourself elected to the board lack substance and are almost insulting to the general membership.Ian P said; As a case in point, Vintage Gliders Australia put their heads together and came up with a concept to assist the GFA Airworthiness Dept. in the airworthiness of wooden gliders. The GFA recognised that this concept enabled the freeing up of the paid staff and agreed to a reduced airworthiness fee for some gliders that fitted a group of conditions. Other owners of older GRP gliders have asked to join and therefor qualify for a reduction. I respectfully declined their advances and suggested that if they wanted the same type of arrangement that they form an appropriate group and seek dispensation. Alas that was just a bit too hard for them to visualise. They wanted to ride on the back of another groups efforts. It sounds like you should change your organization name to the wooden gliding association, as some wooden gliders were made later than some of the older glass gliders. Why should glass gliders not qualify for this Ian? It sounds like a strange form of inverse snobbery to me. I note what you wrote implies YOU personally and not the VGA commitee declined the approach. Interesting. Sadly this is the climate we now have and it appears that people just want everything for nothing. Gliding Clubs (read individuals who are on committees) are always looking to reduce the cost of gliding in the (my opinion) mistaken belief that keeping the cost down will somehow improve the membership. Classic examples, Two seaters kept going beyond use by dates, members undertaking work that cost more to do because it takes longer and just look at the variety of winches in Aust when there are proven designs available commercially. I just wish my club commitee had this problem of looking to reduce costs, our fees have risen sharply in every area except membership cost in recent years, including doubling the winter flying rate. Perhaps Ian, one club is not a representative sample. The same can be said for administration. There are clubs struggling to find members who will step up to positions in clubs. Mine is having trouble finding a replacement treasurer, let alone interested people just to fill committee spots. What chance do we have in getting new blood onto the State or Federal positions? There is no chance of finding willing people whilst the current admin groupthink continues, everyone who takes the join em to beat em approach seems to give up eventually due to a total lack of change, or become part of the problem, an ongoing situation for over 20 years. Replacing the majority of the current leadership is the only way to change, and the system is deliberately set up to prevent this from happening. I also remember that during my time in the GFA administration there were problems finding people to do tasks, it was during the amalgamation period and a lot of people put in a lot of time. The results were that some won and some lost. Thats life. Sure we can whinge, and just how good is that! but the only person who misses out is that person. Get over it. There are times when I have to..not manybut I have my whinge, feel better and move on. I consider the changes made at the time of the proposed amalgamation had zero benefit, and some important faults, particularly the combined magazine, which whilst well
Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA matters
Hi Dave L, I think Ian's email stated that vintage gliders came up with a concept to assist the airworthiness dept. in the airworthiness of wooden gliders, not vintage plastic gliders, and you know that wooden glider you flew in at bordertown, if it wasnt for blokes like Ian, you wooden have been able to fly in it.I too help others, by sorting out airworthiness stuff, and yet still find time to be a committee person at my home club, and be on the executive of SAGA, I dont have any regrets doing what I do, and I've been doing it probably longer than you have ben flying, no big deal, but dont mess with the people that keep great things flying, one day you might need them.. cordiallyJR - Original Message - From: David Lawley To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 10:35 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA matters Hi all, Harry Meldicotts post sums up the issue brilliantly, and succintly, I wish I could have put it that well! Highlight for me was; Credulity is stretched by those who seek to justify this position. Arguments such as we know best, can't trust the members to elect the right people given to me by a former Executive member or if you are interested in how things are run, then get yourself elected to the board lack substance and are almost insulting to the general membership.Ian P said; As a case in point, Vintage Gliders Australia put their heads together and came up with a concept to assist the GFA Airworthiness Dept. in the airworthiness of wooden gliders. The GFA recognised that this concept enabled the freeing up of the paid staff and agreed to a reduced airworthiness fee for some gliders that fitted a group of conditions. Other owners of older GRP gliders have asked to join and therefor qualify for a reduction. I respectfully declined their advances and suggested that if they wanted the same type of arrangement that they form an appropriate group and seek dispensation. Alas that was just a bit too hard for them to visualise. They wanted to ride on the back of another groups efforts. It sounds like you should change your organization name to the wooden gliding association, as some wooden gliders were made later than some of the older glass gliders. Why should glass gliders not qualify for this Ian? It sounds like a strange form of inverse snobbery to me. I note what you wrote implies YOU personally and not the VGA commitee declined the approach. Interesting. Sadly this is the climate we now have and it appears that people just want everything for nothing. Gliding Clubs (read individuals who are on committees) are always looking to reduce the cost of gliding in the (my opinion) mistaken belief that keeping the cost down will somehow improve the membership. Classic examples, Two seaters kept going beyond use by dates, members undertaking work that cost more to do because it takes longer and just look at the variety of winches in Aust when there are proven designs available commercially. I just wish my club commitee had this problem of looking to reduce costs, our fees have risen sharply in every area except membership cost in recent years, including doubling the winter flying rate. Perhaps Ian, one club is not a representative sample. The same can be said for administration. There are clubs struggling to find members who will step up to positions in clubs. Mine is having trouble finding a replacement treasurer, let alone interested people just to fill committee spots. What chance do we have in getting new blood onto the State or Federal positions? There is no chance of finding willing people whilst the current admin groupthink continues, everyone who takes the join em to beat em approach seems to give up eventually due to a total lack of change, or become part of the problem, an ongoing situation for over 20 years. Replacing the majority of the current leadership is the only way to change, and the system is deliberately set up to prevent this from happening. I also remember that during my time in the GFA administration there were problems finding people to do tasks, it was during the amalgamation period and a lot of people put in a lot of time. The results were that some won and some lost. Thats life. Sure we can whinge, and just how good is that! but the only person who misses out is that person. Get over it. There are times when I have to..not manybut I have my whinge, feel better and move on. I consider the changes made at the time of the proposed amalgamation had zero benefit, and some important faults, particularly the combined magazine, which whilst well produced and delivered on time is a mere shadow of what Ag used to be. One of the reasons some people don't get elected from the gliding administration to Executive positions
Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA matters
G'Day Ron, I wouldnt say argument, more discussion, and maybe there are those who can see merit in both ways of the system, and I believe Mr.Borgelt was part of the system, and I dont think he is defending it, so that sort of negates the statement of those who are in the power positions both current and past defending the way it is.I know David and he is indeed a very clever posterior. :) I cant do the stuff he does with electronics. JR - Original Message - From: Ron Sanders To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:25 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA matters Dear Ian, it is very interesting reading this present argument between the guys wanting the status Quo and the pro democrats re the GFA and one thing that I note is whilst the pro-democrats are very vocal in their attacks on the GFA structure they do not actually anywhere say to other people you cant have another view or that we actually know better than you. They are putting their point of view forward, strongly yes, bullying no, usually point by point and with out the sexual or organic references that you and at least one other recently have stooped to. Of course they believe they are right that is why they take the time to post, you post because you believe your ideas are right. I did not see David calling you a smart arse??!! Ron Sanders -- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Patching Sent: Wednesday, 29 April 2009 8:12 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA matters Hi David, Read your stuff. Good on you for taking the time to read mine. Are you in the legal profession coz you sound just like you are. Aus -soaring gives everyone to put their point of views. Good stuff I reckon as it allows people the opportunity to state their case and get things off their chests. Smart arses like you just love pulling peoples comments apart as if you believe you are right and nobody else should have a view. No wonder the discussion on Aus -Soaring is only accessed by a few, people don't contribute because you and some others want to bully people into your own beliefs and won't even take an objective position. I've written plenty of final paragraphs to this piece, each one expressing how I feel, but I have deleted them as I'm controlling my thoughts about your sarcastic and bitter comments. Ah, stuff it, just two words are needed. Ian P - Original Message - From: David Lawley To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA matters Hi all, Harry Meldicotts post sums up the issue brilliantly, and succintly, I wish I could have put it that well! Highlight for me was; Credulity is stretched by those who seek to justify this position. Arguments such as we know best, can't trust the members to elect the right people given to me by a former Executive member or if you are interested in how things are run, then get yourself elected to the board lack substance and are almost insulting to the general membership. Ian P said; As a case in point, Vintage Gliders Australia put their heads together and came up with a concept to assist the GFA Airworthiness Dept. in the airworthiness of wooden gliders. The GFA recognised that this concept enabled the freeing up of the paid staff and agreed to a reduced airworthiness fee for some gliders that fitted a group of conditions. Other owners of older GRP gliders have asked to join and therefor qualify for a reduction. I respectfully declined their advances and suggested that if they wanted the same type of arrangement that they form an appropriate group and seek dispensation. Alas that was just a bit too hard for them to visualise. They wanted to ride on the back of another groups efforts. It sounds like you should change your organization name to the wooden gliding association, as some wooden gliders were made later than some of the older glass gliders. Why should glass gliders not qualify for this Ian? It sounds like a strange form of inverse snobbery to me. I note what you wrote implies YOU personally and not the VGA commitee declined the approach. Interesting. Sadly this is the climate we now have and it appears that people just want everything for nothing. Gliding Clubs (read individuals who are on committees) are always looking to reduce the cost of gliding in the (my opinion) mistaken belief that keeping the cost down will somehow improve the membership. Classic examples, Two seaters kept going beyond use by dates,
Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA matters
Dear Ian, it is very interesting reading this present argument between the guys wanting the status Quo and the pro democrats re the GFA and one thing that I note is whilst the pro-democrats are very vocal in their attacks on the GFA structure they do not actually anywhere say to other people you cant have another view or that we actually know better than you. They are putting their point of view forward, strongly yes, bullying no, usually point by point and with out the sexual or organic references that you and at least one other recently have stooped to. Of course they believe they are right that is why they take the time to post, you post because you believe your ideas are right. I did not see David calling you a smart arse??!! Ron Sanders _ From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Patching Sent: Wednesday, 29 April 2009 8:12 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA matters Hi David, Read your stuff. Good on you for taking the time to read mine. Are you in the legal profession coz you sound just like you are. Aus -soaring gives everyone to put their point of views. Good stuff I reckon as it allows people the opportunity to state their case and get things off their chests. Smart arses like you just love pulling peoples comments apart as if you believe you are right and nobody else should have a view. No wonder the discussion on Aus -Soaring is only accessed by a few, people don't contribute because you and some others want to bully people into your own beliefs and won't even take an objective position. I've written plenty of final paragraphs to this piece, each one expressing how I feel, but I have deleted them as I'm controlling my thoughts about your sarcastic and bitter comments. Ah, stuff it, just two words are needed. Ian P - Original Message - From: David mailto:davidlaw...@hotmail.com Lawley To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA matters Hi all, Harry Meldicotts post sums up the issue brilliantly, and succintly, I wish I could have put it that well! Highlight for me was; Credulity is stretched by those who seek to justify this position. Arguments such as we know best, can't trust the members to elect the right people given to me by a former Executive member or if you are interested in how things are run, then get yourself elected to the board lack substance and are almost insulting to the general membership. Ian P said; As a case in point, Vintage Gliders Australia put their heads together and came up with a concept to assist the GFA Airworthiness Dept. in the airworthiness of wooden gliders. The GFA recognised that this concept enabled the freeing up of the paid staff and agreed to a reduced airworthiness fee for some gliders that fitted a group of conditions. Other owners of older GRP gliders have asked to join and therefor qualify for a reduction. I respectfully declined their advances and suggested that if they wanted the same type of arrangement that they form an appropriate group and seek dispensation. Alas that was just a bit too hard for them to visualise. They wanted to ride on the back of another groups efforts. It sounds like you should change your organization name to the wooden gliding association, as some wooden gliders were made later than some of the older glass gliders. Why should glass gliders not qualify for this Ian? It sounds like a strange form of inverse snobbery to me. I note what you wrote implies YOU personally and not the VGA commitee declined the approach. Interesting. Sadly this is the climate we now have and it appears that people just want everything for nothing. Gliding Clubs (read individuals who are on committees) are always looking to reduce the cost of gliding in the (my opinion) mistaken belief that keeping the cost down will somehow improve the membership. Classic examples, Two seaters kept going beyond use by dates, members undertaking work that cost more to do because it takes longer and just look at the variety of winches in Aust when there are proven designs available commercially. I just wish my club commitee had this problem of looking to reduce costs, our fees have risen sharply in every area except membership cost in recent years, including doubling the winter flying rate. Perhaps Ian, one club is not a representative sample. The same can be said for administration. There are clubs struggling to find members who will step up to positions in clubs. Mine is having trouble finding a replacement treasurer, let alone interested people just to fill committee spots. What chance do we have in getting new blood onto the State or Federal positions? There is no chance of finding willing people whilst the current admin groupthink
Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA matters
Oh grow up Ron. - Original Message - From: Ron Sanders To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 8:55 PM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA matters Dear Ian, it is very interesting reading this present argument between the guys wanting the status Quo and the pro democrats re the GFA and one thing that I note is whilst the pro-democrats are very vocal in their attacks on the GFA structure they do not actually anywhere say to other people you cant have another view or that we actually know better than you. They are putting their point of view forward, strongly yes, bullying no, usually point by point and with out the sexual or organic references that you and at least one other recently have stooped to. Of course they believe they are right that is why they take the time to post, you post because you believe your ideas are right. I did not see David calling you a smart arse??!! Ron Sanders -- From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Patching Sent: Wednesday, 29 April 2009 8:12 AM To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA matters Hi David, Read your stuff. Good on you for taking the time to read mine. Are you in the legal profession coz you sound just like you are. Aus -soaring gives everyone to put their point of views. Good stuff I reckon as it allows people the opportunity to state their case and get things off their chests. Smart arses like you just love pulling peoples comments apart as if you believe you are right and nobody else should have a view. No wonder the discussion on Aus -Soaring is only accessed by a few, people don't contribute because you and some others want to bully people into your own beliefs and won't even take an objective position. I've written plenty of final paragraphs to this piece, each one expressing how I feel, but I have deleted them as I'm controlling my thoughts about your sarcastic and bitter comments. Ah, stuff it, just two words are needed. Ian P - Original Message - From: David Lawley To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA matters Hi all, Harry Meldicotts post sums up the issue brilliantly, and succintly, I wish I could have put it that well! Highlight for me was; Credulity is stretched by those who seek to justify this position. Arguments such as we know best, can't trust the members to elect the right people given to me by a former Executive member or if you are interested in how things are run, then get yourself elected to the board lack substance and are almost insulting to the general membership. Ian P said; As a case in point, Vintage Gliders Australia put their heads together and came up with a concept to assist the GFA Airworthiness Dept. in the airworthiness of wooden gliders. The GFA recognised that this concept enabled the freeing up of the paid staff and agreed to a reduced airworthiness fee for some gliders that fitted a group of conditions. Other owners of older GRP gliders have asked to join and therefor qualify for a reduction. I respectfully declined their advances and suggested that if they wanted the same type of arrangement that they form an appropriate group and seek dispensation. Alas that was just a bit too hard for them to visualise. They wanted to ride on the back of another groups efforts. It sounds like you should change your organization name to the wooden gliding association, as some wooden gliders were made later than some of the older glass gliders. Why should glass gliders not qualify for this Ian? It sounds like a strange form of inverse snobbery to me. I note what you wrote implies YOU personally and not the VGA commitee declined the approach. Interesting. Sadly this is the climate we now have and it appears that people just want everything for nothing. Gliding Clubs (read individuals who are on committees) are always looking to reduce the cost of gliding in the (my opinion) mistaken belief that keeping the cost down will somehow improve the membership. Classic examples, Two seaters kept going beyond use by dates, members undertaking work that cost more to do because it takes longer and just look at the variety of winches in Aust when there are proven designs available commercially. I just wish my club commitee had this problem of looking to reduce costs, our fees have risen sharply in every area except membership cost in recent years, including doubling the winter flying rate. Perhaps Ian, one club is not a
[Aus-soaring] Re various
Hi all, Patch said; Smart arses like you just love pulling peoples comments apart as if you believe you are right and nobody else should have a view. I do not love pulling apart comments, the reply you saw took nearly an hour to write that I will never get back, I just want to see gliding still exist when my future grandchildren are old enough to fly (Assuming Ray reproduces). Current trends do not look good. Sitting back supporting the status quo is not going to get us anywhere other than where we have already been. The reason it took an hour was extensive editing to remove the sarcasm, well at least I thought I did... I believe this forum exists so we can debate the issues, am I misguided? How else do you propose to discuss issues? Telepathically? Jungle drums? (Now see THAT is sarcasm). Now average run of the mill abuse, (smart ass, sex and travel suggestions etc) meh, doesnt worry me at all, (In fact I admire a well crafted insult) but inferring I could be a lawyer, well thats a below the belt insult mate Its like me calling you a Blanik fan club member! (-: It might interest you to know that in a moment of madness I just bought a 1/4 share in Boomerang QZ. Gasp-a wooden glider. Regards Dave L _ View photos of singles in your area Click Here http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fdating%2Eninemsn%2Ecom%2Eau%2Fchannel%2Findex%2Easpx%3Ftrackingid%3D1046247_t=773166080_r=Hotmail_Endtext_m=EXT___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA matters. Democracy vs. reality
Al Borowski, Don't forget that in RAAus you don't need to join a club either and someone with a motorglider operating out of his farm strip or local airport won't get any benefit out of a club many hundreds of kilometers away. Richard is just floundering. The 2nd inspection after rigging has absolutely nothing to do with being able to fly without the medical etc. Intentional misdirection, ignorance or inability with simple logic? Only Richard knows. As for price charged by commercial operators - they are trying to make living by paying for fuel, engine overhauls, depreciation and cost of capital. Up front and honest. With the high turnover of new members in gliding clubs there is a nice income in joining fees and annual fees from people who don't stay long and lots of clubs are operating on their depreciation. This won't matter much as by the time the equipment wears out the members will be gone also. If flying gliders cross country is so good compared to flying power it makes Richard's argument about comparative growth even sillier. Here's an interesting link to RAAus http://www.auf.asn.au/safety/intro2.html Note the rapid membership increase and also the completely open and transparent way they discuss accidents and safety. There's lots of other good information on the site. I don't have any time for the self administration model of aviation regulation as I believe it contains the seeds of the organisation's self destruction as there inevitably arise conflicts between regulatory and promotional sides. However if this is to prevail, the RAAus right now looks to be far better than the GFA and is hugely more successful. Members can learn to fly, buy an aircraft and fly wherever they like. Just like Private Pilots can and at about the same regulatory cost except in the case of Experimental VH registered homebuilts where you are the builder and keeping the aircraft in compliance with the law is cheaper. No doubt the SAAA will stuff that up though. Mike Hi Richard, [...] In my experience glider pilots just want to go flying really, and are just very apathetic when it comes to the necessary administration rule-making that allows us to operate in a relatively low-cost non-onerous way. Yes non-onerous (relatively) when you look at the big picture rather than ranting obsessively about your/my personal catalogue of pet-peeves we have acquired for whatever reasons. Yes I do have them to, but you know what? Having to get a 2nd DI look at my control connections (for example) is a small price to pay for the ability to go flying without an expensive medical, BFR ASIC card etc. etc. for a lot less than the $150/hr that most GA RAAA commercial operators I have heard of have to charge. I'm sure there's cheaper ways to do it, but quite frankly flying x/country craps all over boring holes in the sky in a low-performance bugsmasher. If it didn't I'd probably join the RAAA throngs too. Just a few comments: You only need a medical for GA, not for RAA/HGFA (I think RAA instructors have to have a medical though). For RAA, the cost of a BFR is just the usual plane hire + the instructors fee, which in my experience is 30-50 bucks. This only happens once every 2 years. If you look at annual fees, the RAA is $160 vs $210 for the GFA - so the extra expense of the instructor is made up in cheaper annual fees anyway. My understanding is you still need an ASIC if you want to fly to security controlled airports -just like GA and RAA. There is no special GFA exemption. Of course the activities themselves are rather different so the hourly costs differ. I completely agree that soaring is far more fun that boring holes through the sky :) Cheers, Al ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 Int'l + 61 429 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Re various
From: davidlaw...@hotmail.com To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 00:29:57 + Subject: [Aus-soaring] Re various I believe this forum exists so we can debate the issues, am I misguided? Little of this weeks mail could be described as debate it has been mostly bullying and keyboard thuggary. Considering the size of this group, (300?) and that many are for the status quo within the GFA, then nothing is going to change, your flogging a dead horse. It's time to start taking your medication again K Click Here View photos of singles in your area _ Looking to change your car this year? Find car news, reviews and more http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fsecure%2Dau%2Eimrworldwide%2Ecom%2Fcgi%2Dbin%2Fa%2Fci%5F450304%2Fet%5F2%2Fcg%5F801459%2Fpi%5F1004813%2Fai%5F859641_t=762955845_r=tig_OCT07_m=EXT___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] control inspections
Mike, I actually agree with most of that, mandatory dual inspection on civil aircraft is the prior reference i was refering to. still i am not sure exactly when it was introduced. RAAF do own gliders and also the RAAF cadets i believe.. On the main point though. Of course if you wish to operate outside of the GFA's current mandatory dual inspection which in principal i agree with, i suggest if there is a reasonable argument for it being not required then an excemption could surely be approved? making it an all operators standard though i do agree with. Some people just have no idea and even another eye may mean the difference between safe or not. I personally always have asked for a dual inspection even without the signature in the book. Newer gliders of course require very little actual rigging these days and like you say, do they actually do a positive control check with full and correct sence?? Daily inspectors are suposed to know this but i have personally seen otherwise quite a lot. All in all dual inspections should improve the probability of a mistake being picked up before the bone hits the dirt. Cheers Mark Date: Wed, 29 Apr 2009 10:38:21 +1000 To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net From: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] control inspections Mark, I didn't know that the RAAF had any gliders. I suspect dual control inspections were invented around the beginning of WW1 shortly after controls went INSIDE the aircraft. Maybe the concept even came from Victorian era steam engineers. Dual control inspections after maintenance when controls are disconnected and reconnected and then covered up by layers of structure and interior furnishings where they cannot be readily inspected before flight every day are a different matter from gliders which are designed to be derigged and stored in trailers and whose control systems are designed to break at specified points and these points be easily inspectable before flight (well mostly anyway - the outer wing control connections on the Nimbus 3DM were always a worry - after rigging you CANNOT inspect them without partially derigging the glider). Which also gets to an interesting point: how many of you actually grab the control rod, fitting etc and give it a wiggle or do you just look at it? Just in case you get the wrong idea, I don't object to doing proper redundant control inspections after rigging. It is easier with some help. My objection is to forcing some other poor sucker to sign on the line or even get him to feel pressure that he ought to help because if you crash and kill yourself he's in the gun. There are also circumstances where routine disconnection of controls at rigging points for scheduled maintenance is required and even there is somebody else there they may not hold a DI rating for gliders. Mid week at some clubs maybe it is only the tuggie and you and he may not hold the DI rating. Same applies to self launchers. I rig the glider, connect the controls and insert the R Pins in any L'Otelliers. Then walk around and check the rest of the things (including that the tailplane is properly attached), then check the control attachments again but leave the hatch off. Then organise the cockpit, then check the control attachments once more and seal the hatch. My neck, my responsibility. Mike . At 02:04 PM 27/04/2009, you wrote: Note; Dual inspections are the single largest improvement to aviation safety ever. And it was first implemented by the RAAF i believe, something to be proud of. Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 Int'l + 61 429 355784 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com website: www.borgeltinstruments.com ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring _ Looking for a fresh way to share photos? Get the new Windows Live Messenger. http://download.live.com/___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] ASW20B for Sale
For sale: ASW20B, HDW, flies beautifully, Cambridge 302, L-Nav, Flarm, boom Microair radio, parachute, closed trailer, tow out gear. Ready to Go. $46,000. Looking for offers. Michael Cole 0419751708. __ This electronic message and any attachments may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient of this message would you please delete the message and any attachments and advise the sender. Sydney West Area Health Service (SWAHS) uses virus scanning software but excludes any liability for viruses contained in any email or attachment. This email may contain privileged and confidential information intended only for the use of the addressees named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, distribution, or reproduction of this email is prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify SWAHS immediately. Any views expressed in this email are those of the individual sender except where the sender expressly and with authority states them to be the views of SWAHS. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
[Aus-soaring] Disclaimers was ASW20B for Sale
LOL The disclaimer and confidentiality clause down the bottom is longer than the advert! You gotta love that! Runs and hides ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
