Re: [Aus-soaring] Taxying after Landing (Thanks)
At the Mafikeng World Comps landing on bitumen runway with room off to each side on grass the local rule was if you stopped with any part of the glider over bitumen then you got a 50point penalty! At the last few comps I have been at there have been more incidents/close calls and worse from the land straight and dick around for ten minutes pilots than from those carefully taxiing off. I would also prefer to see NO cars on runways at ALL! To help those behind me I will continue my practice. Tom___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Taxying after Landing (Thanks)
On 07/03/2013, at 3:00 AM, tom claffey to...@yahoo.com wrote: At the Mafikeng World Comps landing on bitumen runway with room off to each side on grass the local rule was if you stopped with any part of the glider over bitumen then you got a 50point penalty! At the last few comps I have been at there have been more incidents/close calls and worse from the land straight and dick around for ten minutes pilots than from those carefully taxiing off. I would also prefer to see NO cars on runways at ALL! To help those behind me I will continue my practice. Might have been better if the ops panel had this discussion before the promulgation of the new MOSP (Pt 2 8.1.6) - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Taxying after Landing (Thanks)
On 07/03/2013, at 3:30 AM, tom claffey to...@yahoo.com wrote: At the last few comps I have been at there have been more incidents/close calls and worse from the land straight and dick around for ten minutes pilots than from those carefully taxiing off. I would also prefer to see NO cars on runways at ALL! Sounds sensible. But you are providing a bit of a polar opposite. Except for some, most of us can push our glider off in under a minute. But the idea of no cars on the runway is a good one. I also have seen people hang around the glider for ages, chatting etc not pushing off. So just because I am against taxing off, doesn't mean that I then leave my glider in the middle for 10 minutes and move my car there. Scott -- Scott Penrose sco...@dd.com.au http://scott.dd.com.au/ smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Taxying after Landing (Thanks)
Hello Tom, I really don't have an axe to grind here. You said… there have been more incidents/close calls and worse from the land straight and dick around for ten minutes pilots than from those carefully taxiing off. My glider has a steerable tail wheel, so I have the ability to veer off the strip in an alarming fashion. I was given a telling off from an instructor of a hundred times my experience for deviating from a straight line at the end of my landing run. This deviation was not alarming but a gently turn. From memory the situation was that I had landed centrally on the bitumen and when the glider was towards the end of its roll, turned off the bitumen strip and rolled across the grass to the edge of the strip. The grass is wide enough that two or even three gliders could land there. The point the instructor made was that in a comp, there could be a number of other gliders landing all around and there is no way that I could be sure that the sides of the strip were clear and therefore it was unsafe to turn. The alternative, appears to be to stop and then dick around for five minutes… and it is a while… open canopy, release harness, release static line, release pee tube, spray cockpit, climb out and get legs to work, check for traffic and then pull the glider off the strip. Neither situation is particularly satisfactory, but my feeling is that the straight run is safer than turning without looking (because looking is impossible). How does one carefully taxi off without an initial turn to look? D ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Taxying after Landing (Thanks)
Not saying a new local rule should not be used for a special event or particular AFLD. That is done to guard against problems identified for that unique set of circumstances but there has to be a starting point that we can all relate to. Same as some AFLDs require RH circuits to to avoid flying over nearby town/high ground or to separate heavy traffic with helicopters vs fixed wing or special needs of gliders. That is why Air Navigation Rules (with the fines listed for breaking them) may still be amended as per ERSA or NOTAM for these Special use AFLDs or events. Our MOSP still has to be approved by the Australian Authoriry responsible for the propper use of our airspace and AFLDs. I think that will also apply to private AFLDs but again I don't have the reference material or time to delve further. I will just follow the rules that allow me to fly (and land) after applying any sanctioned amendments/NOTAMs/club rules. Of course one can vary this in any circumstance where it is justified on safety grounds but one must also be prepared to back it up to the authority. A RH turn after T/O to remain over landable ground in a self launching glider might be the sensible thing to do and might be easily dismissed by the aurhority but if you wanted to do that regularly you would certianly have to put your case in writing to that aurhority before they can be expected to prove the case before putting out yet another special case ERSA amendment or NOTAM or re-approve the MOSP for the rest of the affected aviation community to find/digest/apply. The same could be said to lesser aurhorities that still must justify their rules to the higher authority. If all this them and us scares anyone then you had better get used to it. It is what has been happening in that continent where you will find that little place called Mafikeng and it is already happening here too. It is not the individual and his rights that will hold back the tide. Our only hope is representation by a larger National body but I digress. We all know the old saying about who rules should apply to but if they are casually altered to suit an individual, AFLD club or even country (we are signatories to the Chicago convention and other world aviation bodies) then the lesser body can expect a call to justify it. If a rule needs to be changed to suit a special case then do the paper work, get it approved and then the rest of us know what is done for convenience over safety, for safety for those of us are clueless when we see the dispensations allowed by the big rule book is applied to the special case. As always, if you need to avoid an accident, do what ever needs to be done and if necessary the paperwork will follow. Kind regards all fellow enthusiasts. On 07/03/2013 5:12 AM, Mark Newton new...@atdot.dotat.org wrote: On 07/03/2013, at 3:00 AM, tom claffey to...@yahoo.com wrote: At the Mafikeng World Comps landing on bitumen runway with room off to each side on grass the local rule was if you stopped with any part of the glider over bitumen then you got a 50point penalty! At the last few comps I have been at there have been more incidents/close calls and worse from the land straight and dick around for ten minutes pilots than from those carefully taxiing off. I would also prefer to see NO cars on runways at ALL! To help those behind me I will continue my practice. Might have been better if the ops panel had this discussion before the promulgation of the new MOSP (Pt 2 8.1.6) - mark ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Taxying after Landing (Thanks)
Unfortunately, when you have 40 gliders landing within 5 minutes on a strip that can accommodate 3 abreast, there is no way this is possible or safe if everyone just lands straight ahead. Everyone MUST land long, and those on the edges MUST taxi off. I've flown 2 comps this summer. at the first, most people were landing short and not taxiing off. The result was chaos, with several near collisions on the ground, and extremely high workload for those approaching to land - exactly what this rule is supposed to avoid At the 2nd, as requested, everyone was landing long and taxiing off. even with the 40 gliders within 5 minutes, everything was calm and organised. The pilot workload was very low even spending as little as 1 minute getting out turning the glider 90 degrees and pushing off - it usually takes much more than this - is likely to cause a collision potential with at least 3 others, probably more. On 07/03/2013, at 9:50 , DMcD slutsw...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Tom, I really don't have an axe to grind here. You said… there have been more incidents/close calls and worse from the land straight and dick around for ten minutes pilots than from those carefully taxiing off. My glider has a steerable tail wheel, so I have the ability to veer off the strip in an alarming fashion. I was given a telling off from an instructor of a hundred times my experience for deviating from a straight line at the end of my landing run. This deviation was not alarming but a gently turn. From memory the situation was that I had landed centrally on the bitumen and when the glider was towards the end of its roll, turned off the bitumen strip and rolled across the grass to the edge of the strip. The grass is wide enough that two or even three gliders could land there. The point the instructor made was that in a comp, there could be a number of other gliders landing all around and there is no way that I could be sure that the sides of the strip were clear and therefore it was unsafe to turn. The alternative, appears to be to stop and then dick around for five minutes… and it is a while… open canopy, release harness, release static line, release pee tube, spray cockpit, climb out and get legs to work, check for traffic and then pull the glider off the strip. Neither situation is particularly satisfactory, but my feeling is that the straight run is safer than turning without looking (because looking is impossible). How does one carefully taxi off without an initial turn to look? D ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Taxying after Landing (Thanks)
I couldn't agree with you more. Sounds like a really good local procedure. Everyone in the loop. On 07/03/2013 8:43 AM, Matthew Gage m...@knightschallenge.com wrote: Unfortunately, when you have 40 gliders landing within 5 minutes on a strip that can accommodate 3 abreast, there is no way this is possible or safe if everyone just lands straight ahead. Everyone MUST land long, and those on the edges MUST taxi off. I've flown 2 comps this summer. at the first, most people were landing short and not taxiing off. The result was chaos, with several near collisions on the ground, and extremely high workload for those approaching to land - exactly what this rule is supposed to avoid At the 2nd, as requested, everyone was landing long and taxiing off. even with the 40 gliders within 5 minutes, everything was calm and organised. The pilot workload was very low even spending as little as 1 minute getting out turning the glider 90 degrees and pushing off - it usually takes much more than this - is likely to cause a collision potential with at least 3 others, probably more. On 07/03/2013, at 9:50 , DMcD slutsw...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Tom, I really don't have an axe to grind here. You said… there have been more incidents/close calls and worse from the land straight and dick around for ten minutes pilots than from those carefully taxiing off. My glider has a steerable tail wheel, so I have the ability to veer off the strip in an alarming fashion. I was given a telling off from an instructor of a hundred times my experience for deviating from a straight line at the end of my landing run. This deviation was not alarming but a gently turn. From memory the situation was that I had landed centrally on the bitumen and when the glider was towards the end of its roll, turned off the bitumen strip and rolled across the grass to the edge of the strip. The grass is wide enough that two or even three gliders could land there. The point the instructor made was that in a comp, there could be a number of other gliders landing all around and there is no way that I could be sure that the sides of the strip were clear and therefore it was unsafe to turn. The alternative, appears to be to stop and then dick around for five minutes… and it is a while… open canopy, release harness, release static line, release pee tube, spray cockpit, climb out and get legs to work, check for traffic and then pull the glider off the strip. Neither situation is particularly satisfactory, but my feeling is that the straight run is safer than turning without looking (because looking is impossible). How does one carefully taxi off without an initial turn to look? D ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Taxying after Landing (Thanks)
On 07/03/2013, at 11:42 AM, Matthew Gage m...@knightschallenge.com wrote: Unfortunately, when you have 40 gliders landing within 5 minutes on a strip that can accommodate 3 abreast, there is no way this is possible or safe if everyone just lands straight ahead. Everyone MUST land long, and those on the edges MUST taxi off. That is why knowing local rules is important. But makes good sense - rules for good separation. Scott -- Scott Penrose sco...@dd.com.au http://scott.dd.com.au/ smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Taxying after Landing (Thanks)
At the Mafikeng World Comps landing on bitumen runway with room off to each side on grass the local rule was if you stopped with any part of the glider over bitumen then you got a 50point penalty! At the last few comps I have been at there have been more incidents/close calls and worse from the land straight and dick around for ten minutes pilots than from those carefully taxiing off. I would also prefer to see NO cars on runways at ALL! To help those behind me I will continue my practice. Tom___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Taxying after Landing (Thanks)
At the Mafikeng World Comps landing on bitumen runway with room off to each side on grass the local rule was if you stopped with any part of the glider over bitumen then you got a 50point penalty! At the last few comps I have been at there have been more incidents/close calls and worse from the land straight and dick around for ten minutes pilots than from those carefully taxiing off. I would also prefer to see NO cars on runways at ALL! To help those behind me I will continue my practice. Tom___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Taxying after Landing (Thanks)
My preference is to land to the side of the strip so nobody can be beside me and taxi off in that direction. Landing on the bitumen and taxiing off onto the grass really needs the situation in Mafeking where nobody was allowed to land on the grass or taxiing off onto a runway strip where nobody will land, or taxiing off just past another glider who landed previously and is blocking that part of the airfield anyway. As enough people have said, don#x27;t taxi towards anything, don#x27;t rely on brakes and don#x27;t taxi where someone else has room to land. The main thing is to use common sense and use the landing area for as little time as possible. By taxiing off and not parking in the middle of the strip while you walk a K to your car and then drive to glider across strip helps safety. If you feel you don#x27;t have the skills perhaps you need to work on them.___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
Re: [Aus-soaring] Taxying after Landing (Thanks)
Thanks everyone for the input regarding this topic, there has been some drift from the question I posed about landing and then taxying towards the grid (is this done for the sake of convenience?). I am not referring to landing long past the grid and then taxying off to clear the runway for traffic behind. I have done that many times to provide a clear runway for traffic behind me. i.e. down the runway, taxying away from the grid and off the runway at a shallow angle and not towards any fixed objects if the brakes decide to fail or that I have miscalculated energy management! Even so, Never assume that the glider in front of you will clear the runway for you (it is nice if they do). Sometimes something might happen to the a/c to prevent it getting of the strip in a hurry (i.e. burst tyre on landing, not enough crew to get a/c off strip quickly, a wheels up, collapsed u/c on landing etc.). Have enough energy available to overfly and land longer if possible, consider an off-field landing (if the only runway has been filled up with landing a/c) if it is safe to do so. If you have that luxury, you might elect to land on another runway at the airfield, but by aware of the other traffic. Have plan B and C up your sleeve. ___ Aus-soaring mailing list Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net To check or change subscription details, visit: http://lists.internode.on.net/mailman/listinfo/aus-soaring
