Re: [AusNOG] Switch installation in data centre racks - front facing, or rear facing?

[Chris Ford]

This. We try to keep all the ports on the same side of the rack - (most?) 
network gear has the ports on the front, servers have the ports on the back - 
but make sure you don't get the airflow backwards. Switches don't like it when 
they are sucking air from the hot aisle (or so I hear ...)

--
Chris Ford
Inabox Group

From: AusNOG [mailto:ausnog-boun...@lists.ausnog.net] On Behalf Of David Hooton
Sent: Wednesday, 4 October 2017 12:55 PM
To: ausnog@lists.ausnog.net
Subject: Re: [AusNOG] Switch installation in data centre racks - front facing, 
or rear facing?

> On 3/10/17, 10:34 pm, "AusNOG on behalf of Ken Wilson" 
> <ausnog-boun...@lists.ausnog.net<mailto:ausnog-boun...@lists.ausnog.net> on 
> behalf of ken.wil...@opengear.com<mailto:ken.wil...@opengear.com>> wrote:
>
> Tagging onto this - does the same go for your out-of-band equipment? (those 
> that have it)
>
Yes absolutely, as Nick has mentioned for his IPMI switches we generally use 
rear facing OOB everywhere. Most servers and other non networking equipment 
generally put their network ports on the back of their devices, it just makes 
sense to keep network patching all on one side of the rack so we don't have 
cables running from front to rear. I am surprised how many vendors still don't 
offer rear to front airflow boxes.
DJH
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Re: [AusNOG] Switch installation in data centre racks - front facing, or rear facing?

[Sam Silvester]

On Thu, Oct 5, 2017 at 2:24 PM, Paul Wilkins 
wrote:

> Just so. If you care about configuration control and change management,
> you'll be using structured cabling with access from the front of the rack.
> You really don't need to be fiddling around in the back of a rack,
> wondering about which port goes where.
>

I really don't see a connection between somebody care of configuration
control and change management, the use of structured cabling, and the
location (front/rear/ToR or end of row) of switches, to be completely
honest.

All very much independent of each other, no matter how hard I try to
imagine otherwise.
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Re: [AusNOG] Switch installation in data centre racks - front facing, or rear facing?

[Paul Wilkins]

Just so. If you care about configuration control and change management,
you'll be using structured cabling with access from the front of the rack.
You really don't need to be fiddling around in the back of a rack,
wondering about which port goes where.

Kind regards

Paul Wilkins

On 4 October 2017 at 16:51, Sam Silvester  wrote:

> I _think_ I am starting to understand what you are on about:
>
> On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 3:36 PM, Paul Wilkins 
> wrote:
>
>> Sam,
>> In an SP environment, you may well have whole rows dedicated to a single
>> service - email, or web say. In the rack itself, you'll have web_node_5007,
>> web_node_5008 etc.
>>
>
> Are you saying that in a given rack you don't care that web_node_5007 went
> into port 1 and web_node_5008 into port 2 before you replace the faulty
> switch, whilst afterwards if they are arse-about because you can just throw
> any ol server into any ol port (same firewall zone/VLAN/whatever)? Hence,
> easier compared to this:
>
>
>> In the enterprise, you'll have a few email blades, internal web, external
>> web, next to a bunch of file and print etc etc etc. These then likely are
>> all on different firewall interfaces/firewalls in different zones requiring
>> different routing and security.
>>
>
> In which case you have to carefully make sure each cable goes back in the
> same port it came out of, as when the config to the replacement switch is
> pushed down it'll all obviously not work great if you've mixed it up from
> where it was.
>
>
>
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Re: [AusNOG] Switch installation in data centre racks - front facing, or rear facing?

[Sam Silvester]

On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 3:49 PM, Paul Wilkins 
wrote:

> Sure, but when one observes the default vendor position is front to back
> airflow, if one then applies logic, you can conclude back to front is
> deployed as a cost cutting measure sans structured cabling.
>
>
I don't understand is where structured cabling comes into this at all,
unless we're defining what structured cabling means differently.
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Re: [AusNOG] Switch installation in data centre racks - front facing, or rear facing?

[Paul Wilkins]

Sure, but when one observes the default vendor position is front to back
airflow, if one then applies logic, you can conclude back to front is
deployed as a cost cutting measure sans structured cabling.

Kind regards

Paul Wilkins

On 4 October 2017 at 16:10, Jay Dixon  wrote:

> I think Sam's point was that the original email/question was asking purely
> about direction front or back, not whether you use TOR switches or
> structured cabling back to a central point :)
>
> On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Paul Wilkins 
> wrote:
>
>> Sam,
>> In an SP environment, you may well have whole rows dedicated to a single
>> service - email, or web say. In the rack itself, you'll have web_node_5007,
>> web_node_5008 etc.
>>
>> In the enterprise, you'll have a few email blades, internal web, external
>> web, next to a bunch of file and print etc etc etc. These then likely are
>> all on different firewall interfaces/firewalls in different zones requiring
>> different routing and security.
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
>> Paul Wilkins
>>
>> On 4 October 2017 at 15:41, Sam Silvester 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 2:38 PM, Paul Wilkins 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Because SPs have the luxury to not use structured cabling, due to scale
 where all switch ports share a common configuration, so there's no need for
 a patch panel, just patch direct to the switch, whereas in enterprise,
 inadvertent swapping of ports leads to P1s, hence, structured cabling is
 fairly ubiquitous.


>>> I'm not sure I understand.
>>>
>>> We're talking about "ToR" switching in this thread i.e. switches share a
>>> rack with the servers in question.
>>>
>>> In both front and rear mounted switches, I'd assume all cables go direct
>>> from the server to the switch. If that's not what you mean, can you perhaps
>>> share what kind of cabling arrangement you've come across? I'd be
>>> interested in how it would work and what logic would go into such a
>>> decision.
>>>
>>> I'm also not sure how such a distinction between enterprise and SP would
>>> change anything. SPs would still have a mapping of server to port, it's not
>>> like just any server / cable goes into any old port and swapping them to a
>>> new/different arrangement during a switch change wouldn't matter...or am I
>>> making an incorrect assumption there?
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Sam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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Re: [AusNOG] Switch installation in data centre racks - front facing, or rear facing?

[Jay Dixon]

I think Sam's point was that the original email/question was asking purely
about direction front or back, not whether you use TOR switches or
structured cabling back to a central point :)

On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Paul Wilkins 
wrote:

> Sam,
> In an SP environment, you may well have whole rows dedicated to a single
> service - email, or web say. In the rack itself, you'll have web_node_5007,
> web_node_5008 etc.
>
> In the enterprise, you'll have a few email blades, internal web, external
> web, next to a bunch of file and print etc etc etc. These then likely are
> all on different firewall interfaces/firewalls in different zones requiring
> different routing and security.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Paul Wilkins
>
> On 4 October 2017 at 15:41, Sam Silvester  wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 2:38 PM, Paul Wilkins 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Because SPs have the luxury to not use structured cabling, due to scale
>>> where all switch ports share a common configuration, so there's no need for
>>> a patch panel, just patch direct to the switch, whereas in enterprise,
>>> inadvertent swapping of ports leads to P1s, hence, structured cabling is
>>> fairly ubiquitous.
>>>
>>>
>> I'm not sure I understand.
>>
>> We're talking about "ToR" switching in this thread i.e. switches share a
>> rack with the servers in question.
>>
>> In both front and rear mounted switches, I'd assume all cables go direct
>> from the server to the switch. If that's not what you mean, can you perhaps
>> share what kind of cabling arrangement you've come across? I'd be
>> interested in how it would work and what logic would go into such a
>> decision.
>>
>> I'm also not sure how such a distinction between enterprise and SP would
>> change anything. SPs would still have a mapping of server to port, it's not
>> like just any server / cable goes into any old port and swapping them to a
>> new/different arrangement during a switch change wouldn't matter...or am I
>> making an incorrect assumption there?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Sam
>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: [AusNOG] Switch installation in data centre racks - front facing, or rear facing?

[Paul Wilkins]

Sam,
In an SP environment, you may well have whole rows dedicated to a single
service - email, or web say. In the rack itself, you'll have web_node_5007,
web_node_5008 etc.

In the enterprise, you'll have a few email blades, internal web, external
web, next to a bunch of file and print etc etc etc. These then likely are
all on different firewall interfaces/firewalls in different zones requiring
different routing and security.

Kind regards

Paul Wilkins

On 4 October 2017 at 15:41, Sam Silvester  wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 2:38 PM, Paul Wilkins 
> wrote:
>
>> Because SPs have the luxury to not use structured cabling, due to scale
>> where all switch ports share a common configuration, so there's no need for
>> a patch panel, just patch direct to the switch, whereas in enterprise,
>> inadvertent swapping of ports leads to P1s, hence, structured cabling is
>> fairly ubiquitous.
>>
>>
> I'm not sure I understand.
>
> We're talking about "ToR" switching in this thread i.e. switches share a
> rack with the servers in question.
>
> In both front and rear mounted switches, I'd assume all cables go direct
> from the server to the switch. If that's not what you mean, can you perhaps
> share what kind of cabling arrangement you've come across? I'd be
> interested in how it would work and what logic would go into such a
> decision.
>
> I'm also not sure how such a distinction between enterprise and SP would
> change anything. SPs would still have a mapping of server to port, it's not
> like just any server / cable goes into any old port and swapping them to a
> new/different arrangement during a switch change wouldn't matter...or am I
> making an incorrect assumption there?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Sam
>
>
>
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Re: [AusNOG] Switch installation in data centre racks - front facing, or rear facing?

[Peter Tiggerdine]

that would mean the concept of patch by exception does not require
patch panels and clearly even with that methodology it's used. Seems
like some crack smoking logic there. I bet 90% of most peoples access
layer has the same configuration on their switches.

I don't think scale has anything todo with it. Sounds more about
margin, the cost of RU space and how close to the wind most SP are
flying which, in-turns means paying engineers peanuts and doing
whatever to bring the revenue in.


Regards,

Peter Tiggerdine

GPG Fingerprint: 2A3F EA19 F6C2 93C1 411D 5AB2 D5A8 E8A8 0E74 6127


On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 2:08 PM, Paul Wilkins  wrote:
> Because SPs have the luxury to not use structured cabling, due to scale
> where all switch ports share a common configuration, so there's no need for
> a patch panel, just patch direct to the switch, whereas in enterprise,
> inadvertent swapping of ports leads to P1s, hence, structured cabling is
> fairly ubiquitous.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Paul Wilkins
>
> On 4 October 2017 at 14:56, Sam Silvester  wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Paul Wilkins 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> There's enterprise racks, and SP racks and I'd say to generalise,
>>> Enterprise do the ports to the front to structured cabling, while SPs will
>>> reverse mount for shorter wire runs and density. Also swapping out reverse
>>> mounted switches is a huge pain.
>>>
>>
>> That's an interesting statement. What makes you say that? I've come across
>> sites where the front to front (cold aisle) spacing of racks is greater than
>> rear to rear (hot aisle), is that what you are getting at?
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Sam
>>
>
>
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Re: [AusNOG] Switch installation in data centre racks - front facing, or rear facing?

[Paul Wilkins]

Because SPs have the luxury to not use structured cabling, due to scale
where all switch ports share a common configuration, so there's no need for
a patch panel, just patch direct to the switch, whereas in enterprise,
inadvertent swapping of ports leads to P1s, hence, structured cabling is
fairly ubiquitous.

Kind regards

Paul Wilkins

On 4 October 2017 at 14:56, Sam Silvester  wrote:

> On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Paul Wilkins 
> wrote:
>
>> There's enterprise racks, and SP racks and I'd say to generalise,
>> Enterprise do the ports to the front to structured cabling, while SPs will
>> reverse mount for shorter wire runs and density. Also swapping out reverse
>> mounted switches is a huge pain.
>>
>>
> That's an interesting statement. What makes you say that? I've come across
> sites where the front to front (cold aisle) spacing of racks is greater
> than rear to rear (hot aisle), is that what you are getting at?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Sam
>
>
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Re: [AusNOG] Switch installation in data centre racks - front facing, or rear facing?

[Sam Silvester]

On Wed, Oct 4, 2017 at 12:45 PM, Paul Wilkins 
wrote:

> There's enterprise racks, and SP racks and I'd say to generalise,
> Enterprise do the ports to the front to structured cabling, while SPs will
> reverse mount for shorter wire runs and density. Also swapping out reverse
> mounted switches is a huge pain.
>
>
That's an interesting statement. What makes you say that? I've come across
sites where the front to front (cold aisle) spacing of racks is greater
than rear to rear (hot aisle), is that what you are getting at?

Cheers,

Sam
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Re: [AusNOG] Switch installation in data centre racks - front facing, or rear facing?

[Paul Wilkins]

There's enterprise racks, and SP racks and I'd say to generalise,
Enterprise do the ports to the front to structured cabling, while SPs will
reverse mount for shorter wire runs and density. Also swapping out reverse
mounted switches is a huge pain.

Kind regards

Paul Wilkins

On 4 October 2017 at 12:55, David Hooton  wrote:

> > On 3/10/17, 10:34 pm, "AusNOG on behalf of Ken Wilson" <
> ausnog-boun...@lists.ausnog.net on behalf of ken.wil...@opengear.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Tagging onto this - does the same go for your out-of-band equipment?
> (those that have it)
> >
>
> Yes absolutely, as Nick has mentioned for his IPMI switches we generally
> use rear facing OOB everywhere. Most servers and other non networking
> equipment generally put their network ports on the back of their devices,
> it just makes sense to keep network patching all on one side of the rack so
> we don’t have cables running from front to rear. I am surprised how many
> vendors still don’t offer rear to front airflow boxes.
>
> DJH
>
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Re: [AusNOG] Switch installation in data centre racks - front facing, or rear facing?

[David Hooton]

> On 3/10/17, 10:34 pm, "AusNOG on behalf of Ken Wilson" 
>  on 
> behalf of ken.wil...@opengear.com> wrote:
>
> Tagging onto this - does the same go for your out-of-band equipment? (those 
> that have it)
>
Yes absolutely, as Nick has mentioned for his IPMI switches we generally use 
rear facing OOB everywhere. Most servers and other non networking equipment 
generally put their network ports on the back of their devices, it just makes 
sense to keep network patching all on one side of the rack so we don’t have 
cables running from front to rear. I am surprised how many vendors still don’t 
offer rear to front airflow boxes.
DJH
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Re: [AusNOG] Switch installation in data centre racks - front facing, or rear facing?

[Jason Leschnik]

>
> Top switch for servers in the top half, middle switch for IPMI / drac and
> the bottom switch for the servers in the bottom half. It works quite well,
> the cabling is nice and neat and doesn’t get in the way of anything.
>

A quick calculation on paper leads me to believe there is a up to a ~40%
reduction in cable length when running the switches in the centre of the
rack. This sounds like the way to go!

Example: http://imgur.com/a/rSzZx
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Re: [AusNOG] Switch installation in data centre racks - front facing, or rear facing?

[James Cunningham]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for the feedback - looks like it's still 6 of one, half a dozen of
the other.

See you all at AUSNOG

James

On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 9:38 AM, Robert Hudson  wrote:

> When installing new switches into server racks in datacentres, I've tended
> to use reverse-flow switches mounted in the back of the rack, so they were
> close to the NIC ports on the servers/other kit.
>
> When installing new switches into racks with patch panels leading to other
> areas (other racks, desks, etc), I mounted switches in the front of the
> rack, along with the patch panels.
>
> When installing existing switches - correct airflow trumps ease of cabling.
>
> If you're buying new, and your switch vendor doesn't do reversible flow
> (either as a specific model, or simply be switching fan modules), ask them
> why not - their competitors certainly do it.
>
> Regards,
>
> Robert
>
> On 29 August 2017 at 09:02, James Cunningham  wrote:
>
>> Hi Guys,
>>
>> This is an age old discussion that I have had with many people over the
>> years, but am keen to find out what other people think about installing
>> switches into data centre racks.
>>
>> Say for example you have 4 network switches to install into a rack
>> (standard 600mm rack), along with 20-30 1RU and 2RU servers.
>>
>> Would you install the switches facing forwards, or install the switches
>> facing backwards?
>>
>> The way I see it, there are various pros and cons of each approach:
>>
>> *FORWARD FACING *
>> PROS
>> Easy to install and remove the switch from the front of the rack, as
>> power cords are not in the way
>> Most switches expect this installation for air flow, but some switches do
>> have reversible fans.
>>
>> CONS
>> You must route the cables from the front of the rack, to the back of the
>> rack where the server network ports are, leading to cable clutter within
>> the rack.
>>
>> *REAR FACING*
>> PROS
>> Cable distance and cable mess going from the switches to the servers is
>> alot less.
>>
>> CONS
>> When it comes to removing the switch, it's very difficult with a fully
>> loaded rack, as the power cables tend to get in the way from the vertical
>> PDUs at the back.
>>
>> Has anyone else had some detailed thoughts about the best way to rack
>> mount data centre network switches?
>>
>> Thanks in advance.
>>
>> James
>>
>>
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Re: [AusNOG] Switch installation in data centre racks - front facing, or rear facing?

[Robert Hudson]

When installing new switches into server racks in datacentres, I've tended
to use reverse-flow switches mounted in the back of the rack, so they were
close to the NIC ports on the servers/other kit.

When installing new switches into racks with patch panels leading to other
areas (other racks, desks, etc), I mounted switches in the front of the
rack, along with the patch panels.

When installing existing switches - correct airflow trumps ease of cabling.

If you're buying new, and your switch vendor doesn't do reversible flow
(either as a specific model, or simply be switching fan modules), ask them
why not - their competitors certainly do it.

Regards,

Robert

On 29 August 2017 at 09:02, James Cunningham  wrote:

> Hi Guys,
>
> This is an age old discussion that I have had with many people over the
> years, but am keen to find out what other people think about installing
> switches into data centre racks.
>
> Say for example you have 4 network switches to install into a rack
> (standard 600mm rack), along with 20-30 1RU and 2RU servers.
>
> Would you install the switches facing forwards, or install the switches
> facing backwards?
>
> The way I see it, there are various pros and cons of each approach:
>
> *FORWARD FACING *
> PROS
> Easy to install and remove the switch from the front of the rack, as power
> cords are not in the way
> Most switches expect this installation for air flow, but some switches do
> have reversible fans.
>
> CONS
> You must route the cables from the front of the rack, to the back of the
> rack where the server network ports are, leading to cable clutter within
> the rack.
>
> *REAR FACING*
> PROS
> Cable distance and cable mess going from the switches to the servers is
> alot less.
>
> CONS
> When it comes to removing the switch, it's very difficult with a fully
> loaded rack, as the power cables tend to get in the way from the vertical
> PDUs at the back.
>
> Has anyone else had some detailed thoughts about the best way to rack
> mount data centre network switches?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> James
>
>
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Re: [AusNOG] Switch installation in data centre racks - front facing, or rear facing?

[Nick Pratley]

Hey James,

We do something similar and have found that if you mount the switches in the 
middle of the racks at the back – at least with the APC PDUs we use there is 
nothing in the way – tend to mount them where the screen is on the rails. Just 
enough room for 3 switches there.

Top switch for servers in the top half, middle switch for IPMI / drac and the 
bottom switch for the servers in the bottom half. It works quite well, the 
cabling is nice and neat and doesn’t get in the way of anything.

Regards,
Nick

On 29/8/17, 9:11 am, "AusNOG on behalf of Peter Tiggerdine" 
 wrote:

Depends on the way the fans spins and what's best for thermal dynamics.

Some of the Cisco, juniper and Brocade kit you can get fans that spin
in either direction. if so then I tend to put ports in the cold isle
and suck the air through the switch by preference. This is largely to
carter for hot SFP's like QSFP's, XENpacks etc.. and the like. Also
working in the cold isle tends to be easier.

Cables passing through the racks isn't a bad thing as long as rack
dimensions carter for it (yes Fuj I'm looking at you >:( ).

Regards,

Peter Tiggerdine

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On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 9:02 AM, James Cunningham  
wrote:
> Hi Guys,
>
> This is an age old discussion that I have had with many people over the
> years, but am keen to find out what other people think about installing
> switches into data centre racks.
>
> Say for example you have 4 network switches to install into a rack 
(standard
> 600mm rack), along with 20-30 1RU and 2RU servers.
>
> Would you install the switches facing forwards, or install the switches
> facing backwards?
>
> The way I see it, there are various pros and cons of each approach:
>
> FORWARD FACING
> PROS
> Easy to install and remove the switch from the front of the rack, as power
> cords are not in the way
> Most switches expect this installation for air flow, but some switches do
> have reversible fans.
>
> CONS
> You must route the cables from the front of the rack, to the back of the
> rack where the server network ports are, leading to cable clutter within 
the
> rack.
>
> REAR FACING
> PROS
> Cable distance and cable mess going from the switches to the servers is 
alot
> less.
>
> CONS
> When it comes to removing the switch, it's very difficult with a fully
> loaded rack, as the power cables tend to get in the way from the vertical
> PDUs at the back.
>
> Has anyone else had some detailed thoughts about the best way to rack 
mount
> data centre network switches?
>
> Thanks in advance.
>
> James
>
>
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