[1003.1(2016)/Issue7+TC2 0001309]: Clarity needed for initial value of $? at start of compound-list compound statements
A NOTE has been added to this issue. == https://www.austingroupbugs.net/view.php?id=1309 == Reported By:kre Assigned To: == Project:1003.1(2016)/Issue7+TC2 Issue ID: 1309 Category: Shell and Utilities Type: Enhancement Request Severity: Objection Priority: normal Status: New Name: Robert Elz Organization: User Reference: Section:2.9.4 Page Number:2371-4 Line Number:75726-31 Interp Status: --- Final Accepted Text: == Date Submitted: 2019-12-19 02:26 UTC Last Modified: 2020-01-18 02:38 UTC == Summary:Clarity needed for initial value of $? at start of compound-list compound statements == -- (0004739) kre (reporter) - 2020-01-18 02:38 https://www.austingroupbugs.net/view.php?id=1309#c4739 -- Re https://www.austingroupbugs.net/view.php?id=1309#c4737 What I'd suggest for exit/return definitions vs $? rather than attempting to unify the language, is to first ensure that $? is always defined (no unspecified cases, none is needed) and then simply make the default 'n' for exit/return be $? With that there is just one definition, and if it ever needs correction, everything gets corrected together. For $! in a subshell, I know nothing can be done, but I would not equate it to $$, having $$ work the way it does is useful. The problem is that there is no standard way to obtain the pid of the current executing (sub-)shell. Many shells provide a mechanism for this (which is also useful) but there is no common way yet, so nothing that could be standardised. However $! could reasonably be specified to be unset before any async command has been started ... when yash differs from every other shell (zsh excluded, as it does not really try all that hard to be compatible) it is generally a sign that the standard is lacking, as yash (as I understand it) was built to implement the standard, whereas everyone else has attempted to build shells compatible with the original (which is what the standard should be defining). When yash does something different than everything else, the normal cause will be that the standard forgot to specify something - which appears to be the case here, and we should simply fix it. It doesn't matter whether the "if" and "(exit 7)" complete at the same time or not, what matters is whether "most recent" means most recently started, or most recently completed, which isn't specified anywhere. Once again, what the results should be isn't in question - it is simply a matter of specifying it all correctly, and no "it is obvious" is not good enough. Nor is it good enough to "can't really see" - we need to be precise in all of this, so mis-interpretation is not just unreasonable or absurd, but impossible. Issue History Date ModifiedUsername FieldChange == 2019-12-19 02:26 kreNew Issue 2019-12-19 02:26 kreName => Robert Elz 2019-12-19 02:26 kreSection => 2.9.4 2019-12-19 02:26 krePage Number => 2371-4 2019-12-19 02:26 kreLine Number => 75726-31 2020-01-16 17:42 geoffclare Note Added: 0004731 2020-01-16 17:43 geoffclare Note Edited: 0004731 2020-01-16 20:35 kreNote Added: 0004732 2020-01-16 21:36 kreNote Added: 0004733 2020-01-17 04:17 kreNote Added: 0004734 2020-01-17 04:19 kreNote Edited: 0004734 2020-01-17 09:56 joerg Note Added: 0004735 2020-01-17 10:31 kreNote Added: 0004736 2020-01-17 15:39 geoffclare Note Added: 0004737 2020-01-17 15:53 joerg Note Added: 0004738 2020-01-17 15:56 joerg Note Edited: 0004738 2020-01-17 16:04 joerg
Minutes of the 16th January 2020 Teleconference
All Enclosed are the minutes from the thursday meeting this week. regards Andrew --- Minutes of the 16th January 2020 Teleconference Austin-997 Page 1 of 1 Submitted by Andrew Josey, The Open Group. 17th January 2020 Attendees: Joerg Schilling, FOKUS Fraunhofer Mark Ziegast, SHware Systems Dev. Nick Stoughton, USENIX, ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC 22 OR Eric Blake, Red Hat, Open Group OR Andrew Josey, The Open Group Geoff Clare, The Open Group Eric Ackermann, University Potsdam Apologies Don Cragun, IEEE PASC OR * General news Andrew reported that the Mantis system is now operating on https://. * Outstanding actions (Please note that this section has been flushed to shorten the minutes - to locate the previous set of outstanding actions, look to the minutes from 13th June 2019 and earlier) Bug 1254: "asynchronous list" description uses "command" instead of "AND-OR list" OPEN http://austingroupbugs.net/view.php?id=1254 Action: Joerg to investigate how his shell behaves. Bug 700 - Nick to raise this issue with the C committee Bug 713 - Nick to raise with the C committee. Bug 739 - Nick to raise with the C committee. Bug 1216 - Eric to ask if The Open Group is willing to sponsor this interface, referencing bug note 4478. * Current Business Bug 1307: am_pm value in locales that do not distinguish between am and pm (again) OPEN http://austingroupbugs.net/view.php?id=1307 We continued discussions, then decided to hold until Don is on the call. Bug 1308: Error in table of addresses for address 7,+ Accepted https://www.austingroupbugs.net/view.php?id=1308 This issue is tagged for TC3-2008 Bug 1309: Clarity needed for initial value of $? at start of compound-list compound statements OPEN https://www.austingroupbugs.net/view.php?id=1309 We started discussions and will continue on a future call. Next Steps -- Apologies in advance: None. The next calls are on: January 20 2020 (Monday) This call will be for 60 minutes. January 23 2019 (Thursday) This call will be for 90 minutes. Calls are anchored on US time. (8am Pacific) Please check the calendar invites for dial in details. http://austingroupbugs.net An etherpad is usually up for the meeting, with a URL using the date format as below: https://posix.rhansen.org/p/20xx-mm-dd username=posix password=2115756# Andrew JoseyThe Open Group Austin Group Chair Email: a.jo...@opengroup.org Apex Plaza, Forbury Road,Reading,Berks.RG1 1AX,England To learn how we maintain your privacy, please review The Open Group Privacy Statement at http://www.opengroup.org/privacy. To unsubscribe/opt-out from this mailing list login to The Open Group collaboration portal at https://collaboration.opengroup.org/operational/portal.php?action=unsub=2481
Austin Group teleconference +1 888 974 9888 PIN 618 156 403
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[1003.1(2016)/Issue7+TC2 0001319]: Specify when to print text for a and r commands after d and D commands
The following issue has been SUBMITTED. == https://www.austingroupbugs.net/view.php?id=1319 == Reported By:quinq Assigned To: == Project:1003.1(2016)/Issue7+TC2 Issue ID: 1319 Category: Shell and Utilities Type: Clarification Requested Severity: Editorial Priority: normal Status: New Name: Quentin Rameau Organization: User Reference: Section:sed Page Number:3219 Line Number:107979 Interp Status: --- Final Accepted Text: == Date Submitted: 2020-01-17 16:42 UTC Last Modified: 2020-01-17 16:42 UTC == Summary:Specify when to print text for a and r commands after d and D commands Description: According to current specifications, an a or r command should never print its content when a d or D command in the script, as it should normally be printed “when reaching the end of the script”, and d or D command always “start the next cycle” without reaching the end of the script. This does not looks like what is actually intended, and doesn't reflect what some other implementation do. The a and r text should be printed before begining the next cycle. Desired Action: Modify text starting at line 107977 from: The text specified for the a command, and the contents of the file specified for the r command, shall be written to standard output just before the next attempt to fetch a line of input when executing the N or n commands, or when reaching the end of the script. to: The text specified for the a command, and the contents of the file specified for the r command, shall be written to standard output just before the next attempt to fetch a line of input when executing the N or n or D or d commands, or when reaching the end of the script. == Issue History Date ModifiedUsername FieldChange == 2020-01-17 16:42 quinq New Issue 2020-01-17 16:42 quinq Name => Quentin Rameau 2020-01-17 16:42 quinq Section => sed 2020-01-17 16:42 quinq Page Number => 3219 2020-01-17 16:42 quinq Line Number => 107979 ==
[1003.1(2016)/Issue7+TC2 0001309]: Clarity needed for initial value of $? at start of compound-list compound statements
A NOTE has been added to this issue. == https://www.austingroupbugs.net/view.php?id=1309 == Reported By:kre Assigned To: == Project:1003.1(2016)/Issue7+TC2 Issue ID: 1309 Category: Shell and Utilities Type: Enhancement Request Severity: Objection Priority: normal Status: New Name: Robert Elz Organization: User Reference: Section:2.9.4 Page Number:2371-4 Line Number:75726-31 Interp Status: --- Final Accepted Text: == Date Submitted: 2019-12-19 02:26 UTC Last Modified: 2020-01-17 15:53 UTC == Summary:Clarity needed for initial value of $? at start of compound-list compound statements == -- (0004738) joerg (reporter) - 2020-01-17 15:53 https://www.austingroupbugs.net/view.php?id=1309#c4738 -- I am not aware of any shell that does not start with $? being 0. The problem in ksh is that it inherits $? in a sub-shell from the creator of the sub-shell, but at the same time replaces an exit without parameter by exit 0, even in case that $? is != 0. Issue History Date ModifiedUsername FieldChange == 2019-12-19 02:26 kreNew Issue 2019-12-19 02:26 kreName => Robert Elz 2019-12-19 02:26 kreSection => 2.9.4 2019-12-19 02:26 krePage Number => 2371-4 2019-12-19 02:26 kreLine Number => 75726-31 2020-01-16 17:42 geoffclare Note Added: 0004731 2020-01-16 17:43 geoffclare Note Edited: 0004731 2020-01-16 20:35 kreNote Added: 0004732 2020-01-16 21:36 kreNote Added: 0004733 2020-01-17 04:17 kreNote Added: 0004734 2020-01-17 04:19 kreNote Edited: 0004734 2020-01-17 09:56 joerg Note Added: 0004735 2020-01-17 10:31 kreNote Added: 0004736 2020-01-17 15:39 geoffclare Note Added: 0004737 2020-01-17 15:53 joerg Note Added: 0004738 ==
[1003.1(2016)/Issue7+TC2 0001309]: Clarity needed for initial value of $? at start of compound-list compound statements
A NOTE has been added to this issue. == https://austingroupbugs.net/view.php?id=1309 == Reported By:kre Assigned To: == Project:1003.1(2016)/Issue7+TC2 Issue ID: 1309 Category: Shell and Utilities Type: Enhancement Request Severity: Objection Priority: normal Status: New Name: Robert Elz Organization: User Reference: Section:2.9.4 Page Number:2371-4 Line Number:75726-31 Interp Status: --- Final Accepted Text: == Date Submitted: 2019-12-19 02:26 UTC Last Modified: 2020-01-17 15:39 UTC == Summary:Clarity needed for initial value of $? at start of compound-list compound statements == -- (0004737) geoffclare (manager) - 2020-01-17 15:39 https://austingroupbugs.net/view.php?id=1309#c4737 -- Re: https://austingroupbugs.net/view.php?id=1309#c4732 the wording difference "most recent pipeliine" v. "last command" goes all the way back to POSIX.1992. (I was hoping one of them had changed and I'd be able to point to why it changed.) I agree it would be good to make these consistent. Incidentally the latest text for $? (with bugs applied) is "... most recent pipeline (see ...) that was not within a command substitution (see ...)". The part about command substitution also seems to apply to exit and return. The value of $? if no pipeline has been executed is currently unspecified. If an application relies on it being 0, that's a bug in the application. Having said that, I would not object to changing the standard to require it to be 0 on entry to the shell (but not on entry to a subshell). Re: https://austingroupbugs.net/view.php?id=1309#c4733 The uselessness of inheriting $! is similar to the situation for $$. They are a consequence of a subshell originally being created simply by forking. Re: https://austingroupbugs.net/view.php?id=1309#c4734 It seems absurd to me to claim that the (exit 7) and the "if" complete simultaneously. The "if" command has to use the exit status of the (exit 7) in order to decide whether to execute the ":". Thus is must perform some processing after the (exit 7) has completed. Regarding "(exit 5) ; $SHELL -c 'echo $?'" I really can't see any reader of the standard having a problem understanding that there is no relationship here between the (exit 5) and the $?. (And see above where I talk about the value of $? if no pipeline has been executed.) Issue History Date ModifiedUsername FieldChange == 2019-12-19 02:26 kreNew Issue 2019-12-19 02:26 kreName => Robert Elz 2019-12-19 02:26 kreSection => 2.9.4 2019-12-19 02:26 krePage Number => 2371-4 2019-12-19 02:26 kreLine Number => 75726-31 2020-01-16 17:42 geoffclare Note Added: 0004731 2020-01-16 17:43 geoffclare Note Edited: 0004731 2020-01-16 20:35 kreNote Added: 0004732 2020-01-16 21:36 kreNote Added: 0004733 2020-01-17 04:17 kreNote Added: 0004734 2020-01-17 04:19 kreNote Edited: 0004734 2020-01-17 09:56 joerg Note Added: 0004735 2020-01-17 10:31 kreNote Added: 0004736 2020-01-17 15:39 geoffclare Note Added: 0004737 ==
[1003.1(2016)/Issue7+TC2 0001309]: Clarity needed for initial value of $? at start of compound-list compound statements
A NOTE has been added to this issue. == https://www.austingroupbugs.net/view.php?id=1309 == Reported By:kre Assigned To: == Project:1003.1(2016)/Issue7+TC2 Issue ID: 1309 Category: Shell and Utilities Type: Enhancement Request Severity: Objection Priority: normal Status: New Name: Robert Elz Organization: User Reference: Section:2.9.4 Page Number:2371-4 Line Number:75726-31 Interp Status: --- Final Accepted Text: == Date Submitted: 2019-12-19 02:26 UTC Last Modified: 2020-01-17 10:31 UTC == Summary:Clarity needed for initial value of $? at start of compound-list compound statements == -- (0004736) kre (reporter) - 2020-01-17 10:31 https://www.austingroupbugs.net/view.php?id=1309#c4736 -- Joerg, you're right, my test setup was borked, somehow in the ksh93 setup (and just that one) $SHELL is getting altered to /bin/sh - so when I thought I was testing ksh93 I was actually testing a slightly old version (well, several years old now) of the NetBSD sh.Sorry about that (the window in which I ran the command was running ksh93, so when I checked the version that was correct, just $SHELL was incorrect, so the wrong shell ran the command). With SHELL set correctly I get 0 from that test case too. Now I need to work out what in the startup sequence is altering the $SHELL that is in the environment (and is the shell started). Issue History Date ModifiedUsername FieldChange == 2019-12-19 02:26 kreNew Issue 2019-12-19 02:26 kreName => Robert Elz 2019-12-19 02:26 kreSection => 2.9.4 2019-12-19 02:26 krePage Number => 2371-4 2019-12-19 02:26 kreLine Number => 75726-31 2020-01-16 17:42 geoffclare Note Added: 0004731 2020-01-16 17:43 geoffclare Note Edited: 0004731 2020-01-16 20:35 kreNote Added: 0004732 2020-01-16 21:36 kreNote Added: 0004733 2020-01-17 04:17 kreNote Added: 0004734 2020-01-17 04:19 kreNote Edited: 0004734 2020-01-17 09:56 joerg Note Added: 0004735 2020-01-17 10:31 kreNote Added: 0004736 ==
[1003.1(2016)/Issue7+TC2 0001309]: Clarity needed for initial value of $? at start of compound-list compound statements
A NOTE has been added to this issue. == https://www.austingroupbugs.net/view.php?id=1309 == Reported By:kre Assigned To: == Project:1003.1(2016)/Issue7+TC2 Issue ID: 1309 Category: Shell and Utilities Type: Enhancement Request Severity: Objection Priority: normal Status: New Name: Robert Elz Organization: User Reference: Section:2.9.4 Page Number:2371-4 Line Number:75726-31 Interp Status: --- Final Accepted Text: == Date Submitted: 2019-12-19 02:26 UTC Last Modified: 2020-01-17 09:56 UTC == Summary:Clarity needed for initial value of $? at start of compound-list compound statements == -- (0004735) joerg (reporter) - 2020-01-17 09:56 https://www.austingroupbugs.net/view.php?id=1309#c4735 -- Are you shure for ksh93u+? I get 0 even for ksh93v. Issue History Date ModifiedUsername FieldChange == 2019-12-19 02:26 kreNew Issue 2019-12-19 02:26 kreName => Robert Elz 2019-12-19 02:26 kreSection => 2.9.4 2019-12-19 02:26 krePage Number => 2371-4 2019-12-19 02:26 kreLine Number => 75726-31 2020-01-16 17:42 geoffclare Note Added: 0004731 2020-01-16 17:43 geoffclare Note Edited: 0004731 2020-01-16 20:35 kreNote Added: 0004732 2020-01-16 21:36 kreNote Added: 0004733 2020-01-17 04:17 kreNote Added: 0004734 2020-01-17 04:19 kreNote Edited: 0004734 2020-01-17 09:56 joerg Note Added: 0004735 ==
