Re: [Ayatana] File transfer dialog behaviour
On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 3:02 AM, Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.comwrote: Hi David, your mockup looks pretty.. becoming more like a hybrid between our notification bubbles and and interactive progress indication dialog.. i like the visual this is taking! some ideas on this: REMOVE THE TITLE BAR why? a) imagine you hit the cancel button.. the window would close immediately, since there is nothing left to learn or to interact with in this progress dialog. Yeah! b) minimizing this dialog should hide it, until you are notified about its completion. It still does.when I minimize,it goes to the notification area PAUSE OPERATION add a pause button beside the cancel and you'll have an easily discoverable pause feature. Yeah! ADD CONTINUE IN BACKGROUND BUTTON all that's missing now is a way to let the computer know that you have acknowledged the informative part and you don't wish to interact.. something like continue in background. winrar does this quite well ;) Yeah! OBJECT TITLE IN PROGRESS BAR while copying, display the title of the object being copied in the progress bar. putting this information anywhere else in the dialog window doesn't make too much sense. No! REMOVE GEEKY INFORMATION don't display details like filesize vs transferred data. the progress bar should indicate that sufficiently. perhaps add a [ + ] button for details on the operation. This isn't geeky information anymore.It is also on Windows Vista/7 ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatanahttps://launchpad.net/%7Eayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatanahttps://launchpad.net/%7Eayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
At first I was against this idea but after trying Kubuntu I am in favour of this idea,It only took me a few minutes to be adjusted.I tried this 10 people(old people and 4-6 year old children)who had never used computers and they were comfortable with single click but had problems with Double-Click with many took as long as 1 hour to learn the double click(especially old people).So overall single click is a win for Ubuntu. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
On the topic of double click or single click - the user should choose not others. Open Source should not became a prison. 2010/5/12 Jan-Christoph Borchardt inqu...@googlemail.com: What about that? Are there any plans already to default to single click for opening files and folders in Ubuntu? It is way more intuitive to open with just a single click and have the modifier for the less frequent use-case of selecting (multiple) elements. Launcher icons are also activated by single click. A reverse example: My mother always double clicks links in the browser – regardless how often I tell her that it is not necessary. Muscle memory and habit is just too strong. Regarding that nowadays, people presumably spend more time in their web browser instead of their file manager, it would make sense to adopt the web standard for clicking. On a sidenote: I know two kids who changed the click behavior to single click on their own. They see double clicking as just annoying. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Nemes Ioan Sorin ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
Regardless, one or the other has to be the default. I think that's more the discussion here, if changing the default behavior is beneficial. Date: Fri, 14 May 2010 23:47:41 -0700 From: nemes.so...@gmail.com To: inqu...@gmail.com CC: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders On the topic of double click or single click - the user should choose not others. Open Source should not became a prison. 2010/5/12 Jan-Christoph Borchardt inqu...@googlemail.com: What about that? Are there any plans already to default to single click for opening files and folders in Ubuntu? It is way more intuitive to open with just a single click and have the modifier for the less frequent use-case of selecting (multiple) elements. Launcher icons are also activated by single click. A reverse example: My mother always double clicks links in the browser – regardless how often I tell her that it is not necessary. Muscle memory and habit is just too strong. Regarding that nowadays, people presumably spend more time in their web browser instead of their file manager, it would make sense to adopt the web standard for clicking. On a sidenote: I know two kids who changed the click behavior to single click on their own. They see double clicking as just annoying. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp -- Nemes Ioan Sorin ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp _ The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccountocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Doube-click
All but Luke Morton please skip past the following block: --- Sorry to take this back on the list, but apparently I can't send mail to your given address and wouldn't know how else to reach you: SMTP error from remote mail server after initial connection: host ipmailmx.internode.on.net [192.231.203.138]: 554-ipmailmx06.adl6.internode.on.net 554-ESMTP; mout4.freenet.de [195.4.92.94] in MX's BLACKLISTmail-abuse; crashed into the sunset 554 Blocked using Trend Micro RBL+. Please see http://www.mail-abuse.com/cgi-bin/lookup?ip_address=195.4.92.94 --- On Sat, 2010-05-15 at 17:31 +1000, Luke Morton wrote: I've never edited an ubuntu wiki article. Is there a policy/etiquette regarding editing other people's content? Just in case your are not familiar with MoinMoin, if your are logged in and click Edit, you will find some markup examples and links to documentation below the text entry. Basically: treat other's contributions with respect and be thoughtful about your own. You should not change the meaning of what other's wrote or delete stuff, unless you are very sure what you are doing. This can become a balance act between not forcing your point of view and avoiding a mess. Someone else's take on wiki etiquette: http://senseis.xmp.net/?WikiEtiquette And do you think some user scenarios would be valuable? What could we learn from users scenarios here and what might those scenarios be? We already have established problems users might have due to a lack of training with the mouse, limited motor skill or RSI. This is about very basic and quick operations, so there likely isn't that much to explore. Maybe list cases where a user would want to select multiple files? Continuous vs random selections. Can you think of cases where differing needs would arise? -- Thorsten Wilms thorwil's design for free software: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/ ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Doube-click
On 14 May 2010 20:50, Thorsten Wilms t...@freenet.de wrote: I tried to collect the thoughts so far, regarding single-click mode for activation, but starting from the possible objective of getting rid of double-clicking: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Ayatana/DoubleClick Great, thanks! :) You might find that biased. Please add things that I might have missed. Edit the wiki directly, let's just try to not turn that page into a discussion board. I added a few details and started a benchmarking category with screenshots so comparison is easier (also for people who don‘t like to or can‘t install Dolphin). I could add Mac OS (if I find the functionality) and Windows (but only XP I think) later. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Improving single click for all GTK+ apps to make it suitable as a standard
On Sat, 2010-05-15 at 07:57 -0400, Freddie Unpenstein wrote: On the toolkit side, what I would like to see, is more cooking of the input events, similar to how terminals and X itself allow access to raw keystrokes, the processed/mapped input events, down to the final activation of a widget. In this regard, how about a consistant mechanism across all GTK widgets to intelligently process keyboard and mouse events, kind of like the three-stage cooking that goes on in commandline terminals: 1- the existing signals for the original raw mouse and keyboard events. (...) 2- recognition of the shift/click/drag operation that the user may be performing, (...) 3- looking up the emissions on stage two in a list of symbolic mappings, and re-emitting the resultant action as a final fully cooked input signal. (...) A widget, instead of implementing its own keyboard/mouse mapping code, could in most cases simply register a set of actions and their corresponding default mappings in the third stage processing, and let the default (or theme) mappings match those actions to their input sequences. I would love to see a system-wide gesture-to-action mapping and you seem to be talking about roughly the same. Gestures would be sequences of stuff that the user does using input devices (hardware controllers) and actions would be what the software does in response. Gestures could include simple clicks and keyboard input, but also multi-touch gestures and even Emacs-style sequences. For all GTK+ apps would be a nice start, but cross-toolkit would be even better. I wrote more about that back in 2007: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2007/04/10/event-to-action-mapping-1/ -- Thorsten Wilms thorwil's design for free software: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/ ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Is it time we killed minimize to tray ?
2010/5/14 David Hamm davidth...@gmail.com Chat windows used to be one click away. This was one of the best arguments against it until they made the tray. http://blogs.gnome.org/mccann/2009/07/05/getting-the-message/ but you can still use the same argument, in that, gnome shell cannon't presume to know how all applications will work. I love the tray concept. If Empathy would show its icon there, it will solve the problem with chat windows. Calculator could be a screenlet or something like that. Unfortunately I can see an audience for shell, maybe not as great as the ipad, but nonetheless it leaves me longing for android. Around early 2009 was the last chance anyone had to change the direction of the beast, unfortunately I found out to late, and now all we can do is watch. Its like one of those horror movies that you know the ending! nah gs brings more good then harm. Try Maemo (http://maemo.nokia.com). You'll instantly forget Android. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Pretty mockups with darkly coloured progress dialogs (was: File transfer dialog behaviour)
yeah, thx. actually, we're on the verge of redesigning windows as a whole. * the title bar is losing importance (e.g. we're treating the buttons like trivial objects) * windows are turning into intelligently shaped objects or fullscreen work environments * clutterful information in our focal point is reduced * overlayed widgets and dialogs don't cover formerly focused objects [1] all this in mind, i think it's about time to reconsider the applications of RGBA in our DE design, especialla the A in RGBA ;) that's my thoughts on the matter On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 00:06, Dylan McCall dylanmcc...@gmail.com wrote: I guess MacOS has dark windows and light windows following some kind of pattern, too. Anyone know what theirs is? i remember notification bubbles that, in spite of informing me well, don't obscure the object they are informing about or any other object, since they are semi-tranparent.. all dialogs that are usually (gather use cases) rather informative than interactive should behave like this IMO - app-specific alerts - progress bars - menus - floating toolbars - widget layers [1] http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/1074/rgbagtk2.png (from https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/RgbaGtkWithPPA/) ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ayatana] Should Indicator-Session be put in the upper left corner
The reasoning behind the controversial button movement to the left was that starting/quitting would be on the left, and status would be on the right. Given that reasoning, for consistency sake shouldn't indicator-session go on the far left since it is for starting/quitting an entire session? _ The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail. http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendarocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_5___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Should Indicator-Session be put in the upper left corner
On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 16:48, Mark Curtis merkin...@hotmail.com wrote: The reasoning behind the controversial button movement to the left was that starting/quitting would be on the left, and status would be on the right. Given that reasoning, for consistency sake shouldn't indicator-session go on the far left since it is for starting/quitting an entire session? aha! looks interesting to me! apple does this AFAIK i'm not interested in copying windows or apple behaviour on the long run, but there's nothing wrong with doing the right thing, once you started down that path already.. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
The more options and questions and choices we present to the user, the less they will want to know about *any* of them. btw, you have seen the power menu right? .right, back to single click discussion. I'd say get everyone round the office to set single click and have a vote after a week. reason single click works so well for fingers is that your fingers move slower and more decisively then a mouse. If we do go single click make sure to give that back button emphasis. (like firefox, big back, small forward) ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
ps. select on hover-over (for devices w/ keyboards) is kinda necessary if we switch to single click, which i'm all for btw. the only thing that can enslave a person, is another person. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Criticism of Client Side Window Decorations
Akshat Jain ssj6akshat1...@gmail.com wrote: Link Copy-Pasta http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2010/05/why-you-should-not-use-client-side-window-decorations/ http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2010/05/follow-up-on-client-side-decorations/ This guy named Martin Gräßlin is a hardcore KWin fan I think,looks like if he were a senior GNOME developer he would have replaced Metacity with KWin.Lol Design Team? He's one of the leading kwin developers. It would be a bit surprising if he was not a fan. Personally I find turning window decoration over to applications an odd way to go about increasing consistency on the desktop. I suspect it is unlikely that features requiring CSD will not have any easy time getting support across the Free desktop. (fwiw, windicators are not, afaiui, such a change). Scott K___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Criticism of Client Side Window Decorations
On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 17:48, Scott Kitterman ubu...@kitterman.com wrote: Akshat Jain ssj6akshat1...@gmail.com wrote: Link Copy-Pasta http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2010/05/why-you-should-not-use-client-side-window-decorations/ http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2010/05/follow-up-on-client-side-decorations/ This guy named Martin Gräßlin is a hardcore KWin fan I think,looks like if he were a senior GNOME developer he would have replaced Metacity with KWin.Lol Design Team? He's one of the leading kwin developers. It would be a bit surprising if he was not a fan. Personally I find turning window decoration over to applications an odd way to go about increasing consistency on the desktop. i see the point, though. turning over the title bar design to the app will not increase consistency altogether.. two things happen, if we do this: * app designers will consider DE-wide consistency more * sooner introduction of gnome-globalmenu ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 7:51 PM, Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.comwrote: User testing has revealed that single click comes more intuitively to users than double click. Would you care to elaborate on that? What user testing? 90% of computers used today (Windows) using double click, another 5% of Mac using double click, so ALL LINUX users are split between single click and double click. So I'm not completely convinced about these user testing having place. Now, please don't get me wrong here - if there was such a testing I would happily look at it. I just know that I personally always turned this feature off. And please people, stop comparing this to the iPhone/iPad - the interface on those devices is different enough that no one ever would think to double-tap them. In addition, at least by default, they are not intended to work with files at all. -- Alex Lourie ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
As a matter of dignity and manly pride I challenge you, Alex Lourie, to open nautiluseditpreferencesbehaviorsingle click, for a week. And after that week, comeback and complain! btw. the whole freaking internet is single click. psh. On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Alex Lourie djay...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 7:51 PM, Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote: User testing has revealed that single click comes more intuitively to users than double click. Would you care to elaborate on that? What user testing? 90% of computers used today (Windows) using double click, another 5% of Mac using double click, so ALL LINUX users are split between single click and double click. So I'm not completely convinced about these user testing having place. Now, please don't get me wrong here - if there was such a testing I would happily look at it. I just know that I personally always turned this feature off. And please people, stop comparing this to the iPhone/iPad - the interface on those devices is different enough that no one ever would think to double-tap them. In addition, at least by default, they are not intended to work with files at all. -- Alex Lourie ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
I'm changing my computer to single click to see what I think. On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 2:07 PM, David Hamm davidth...@gmail.com wrote: As a matter of dignity and manly pride I challenge you, Alex Lourie, to open nautiluseditpreferencesbehaviorsingle click, for a week. And after that week, comeback and complain! btw. the whole freaking internet is single click. psh. On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Alex Lourie djay...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 7:51 PM, Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote: User testing has revealed that single click comes more intuitively to users than double click. Would you care to elaborate on that? What user testing? 90% of computers used today (Windows) using double click, another 5% of Mac using double click, so ALL LINUX users are split between single click and double click. So I'm not completely convinced about these user testing having place. Now, please don't get me wrong here - if there was such a testing I would happily look at it. I just know that I personally always turned this feature off. And please people, stop comparing this to the iPhone/iPad - the interface on those devices is different enough that no one ever would think to double-tap them. In addition, at least by default, they are not intended to work with files at all. -- Alex Lourie ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Default to single click to open files and folders
On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 12:07 AM, David Hamm davidth...@gmail.com wrote: As a matter of dignity and manly pride I challenge you, Alex Lourie, to open nautiluseditpreferencesbehaviorsingle click, for a week. And after that week, comeback and complain! btw. the whole freaking internet is single click. psh. David, I believe I just did (and even said it) :-) I always felt irritated by this one click to open folder thing, and my productivity always get hurt when it's on. I'm more with Conscious User on this: I'm not saying that double click is good - I'm saying that I don't see the single click as the solution. Subjectively, of course. -- Alex Lourie ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Instant-messaging as an indicator menu
The Social Desktop, nicely wrapped in a consistent and comfortable UI, will bring the Meercat into many a household! ;) Humans share their knowledge and skills in the Ubuntu community, why don't apps also behave like that? Something i can't stop reasoning about.. Yeah, we need to untangle Ubuntu's social desktop apps, give them an intuitive and accessible structuring, make the social apps talk to each other. Some more userland IPC for a change would help enormously, and we have most of the code for this out there already. Me Menu, Messaging Menu and Contact List, all accessible by 1 click from Ubuntu's Gnome Panel, are not working together as one, and they are not behaving consistently with the other giant baby newcomer Gwibber, nor is anyone really saving up my facebook/google talk contacts in the cloud (Ubuntu One). why not? a) Me Menu duplicates availability setting from Contact List: confusion. b) Me Menu configures services that live in the Messaging Menu: confusion. c) Click-Hold-Aim-Release is no improvement to Click (show contacts/Messaging Menu): a step backwards d) Contact List doesn't deserve its name, it's only an availability status notifier with IM nicks at the moment. e) gwibber's behaviour is inferior to all popular Website AJAX interactivity (clicking like or adding comments reloads the whole stream-page and breaks the user's interaction focus by jumping to the top of the stream...) We should *at least* match the interactivity comfort of facebook.com and mail.google.com.. Perhaps some dedicated usage of WebKit with a minimal local LAMP and some accessible scripts and some CSS featuring RGBA in a WebKit based UI would make a more powerful interface than the Erlang experiments currently happening in Gwibber.. who knows anything about that? * is it smart to implement AJAX-based social website UI behaviour using Erlang? * does your facebook.com stream jump to the top when you commit a comment? * does your jabber webclient on mail.google.com reload the whole page for every IM? * does your bike release the clutch when you flip the light switch? * does your mobile phone reboot its UI for each button pressed? As long as Gwibber sucks, i will use the respective webpages instead. I'm not alone in this observation, prove me wrong. Same goes for Evolution, which is a landmark jack-of-all-trades suite of Unusability [1]. We might as well go back into using POTS and paper mail, if Evolution is meant to be the state of the art. Being free of charge is no USP or catcher nowadays, when OSX costs about $50 and Windows 7 is delivered as factory default on most machines nowadays. If we removed Gimp from Lucid, i suggest remove Gwibber from Lucid+1 also. It was nice to see it in action, but i can't take the Ubuntu social desktop seriously as long as Gwibber's obstructive scrollbars are bigger than the information in between them. Not yet. On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 18:52, David Hamm davidth...@gmail.com wrote: https://docs.google.com/drawings/edit?id=1jC_EV0X2GuZh15xN9QvmUzquK7EjqVkCbqgXbgEsYOYhl=en Maybe this would be better then wave, :p wave is still to young. yeah, nice one. This would then be in the Me / Social Menu, right? We've been tossing Empathy's Contact List all across the DE from A to B to C with no successful integration of human contacts into our DE until even today! i can't even dock the Contact List to anything, even if i wanted to. Who can help me with enabling docking and snapping for this window? Now, whatever happened to Ubuntu, which means humanity after all, if i may inquire? For Maverick, we are supposed to integrate human beings better, as Jono suggested in his blogpost here: [2].. Upstream is doing this quite well by finally introducing Folks [3] to Telepathy (hooray!!), after adopting the promising People project was cancelled IIRC, and meta contact capable Soylent didn't quite happen either... SOCIAL FROM THE START There's a blueprint for a global social API for Maverick [4] as Jan-Christoph hinted a while ago ;) Perhaps this blueprint will be ready for a review after this discussion reveals some low hanging fruit.. This problem is much older than the meta contacts bug on empathy [5].. Points in this topic that i think deserve more opinions: * unified contacts for all social apps (Telepathy: Folks) * menu or interactive list showing those online (Folks in Empathy) * show offline contacts, if i pinned them favourites (pin like in Tomboy menu) * show offline contacts that match my FAYT search on top of list (perhaps with a seperator before the actual list) * show thumbs for real people * offer single click menu with send email, chat, visit [URL/blog], send SMS, call * allow dragging of multiple contacts * drag contacts onto the desktop to create vcards * allow docking/snapping and autohiding Contact List to the right desktop edge * drop Gwibber from Ubuntu 10.10, as we dropped Gimp from 10.04 * ignore Mark's use case, he might need an extra AI to handle his 2000+
Re: [Ayatana] Instant-messaging as an indicator menu
I agree. Both gwibber and evolution suck hard, and the basic integration is still weak across the desktop. I have to keep a browser open pointed at my email pages anyway, because the messenging menu and evolution are inconsistent at best. I have to manually check twitter because gwibber never tells me about new posts properly. the whole thing is still messy and needs to actually integrate, not just come with panel launchers. On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 2:36 PM, Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.comwrote: The Social Desktop, nicely wrapped in a consistent and comfortable UI, will bring the Meercat into many a household! ;) Humans share their knowledge and skills in the Ubuntu community, why don't apps also behave like that? Something i can't stop reasoning about.. Yeah, we need to untangle Ubuntu's social desktop apps, give them an intuitive and accessible structuring, make the social apps talk to each other. Some more userland IPC for a change would help enormously, and we have most of the code for this out there already. Me Menu, Messaging Menu and Contact List, all accessible by 1 click from Ubuntu's Gnome Panel, are not working together as one, and they are not behaving consistently with the other giant baby newcomer Gwibber, nor is anyone really saving up my facebook/google talk contacts in the cloud (Ubuntu One). why not? a) Me Menu duplicates availability setting from Contact List: confusion. b) Me Menu configures services that live in the Messaging Menu: confusion. c) Click-Hold-Aim-Release is no improvement to Click (show contacts/Messaging Menu): a step backwards d) Contact List doesn't deserve its name, it's only an availability status notifier with IM nicks at the moment. e) gwibber's behaviour is inferior to all popular Website AJAX interactivity (clicking like or adding comments reloads the whole stream-page and breaks the user's interaction focus by jumping to the top of the stream...) We should *at least* match the interactivity comfort of facebook.com and mail.google.com.. Perhaps some dedicated usage of WebKit with a minimal local LAMP and some accessible scripts and some CSS featuring RGBA in a WebKit based UI would make a more powerful interface than the Erlang experiments currently happening in Gwibber.. who knows anything about that? * is it smart to implement AJAX-based social website UI behaviour using Erlang? * does your facebook.com stream jump to the top when you commit a comment? * does your jabber webclient on mail.google.com reload the whole page for every IM? * does your bike release the clutch when you flip the light switch? * does your mobile phone reboot its UI for each button pressed? As long as Gwibber sucks, i will use the respective webpages instead. I'm not alone in this observation, prove me wrong. Same goes for Evolution, which is a landmark jack-of-all-trades suite of Unusability [1]. We might as well go back into using POTS and paper mail, if Evolution is meant to be the state of the art. Being free of charge is no USP or catcher nowadays, when OSX costs about $50 and Windows 7 is delivered as factory default on most machines nowadays. If we removed Gimp from Lucid, i suggest remove Gwibber from Lucid+1 also. It was nice to see it in action, but i can't take the Ubuntu social desktop seriously as long as Gwibber's obstructive scrollbars are bigger than the information in between them. Not yet. On Fri, May 14, 2010 at 18:52, David Hamm davidth...@gmail.com wrote: https://docs.google.com/drawings/edit?id=1jC_EV0X2GuZh15xN9QvmUzquK7EjqVkCbqgXbgEsYOYhl=en Maybe this would be better then wave, :p wave is still to young. yeah, nice one. This would then be in the Me / Social Menu, right? We've been tossing Empathy's Contact List all across the DE from A to B to C with no successful integration of human contacts into our DE until even today! i can't even dock the Contact List to anything, even if i wanted to. Who can help me with enabling docking and snapping for this window? Now, whatever happened to Ubuntu, which means humanity after all, if i may inquire? For Maverick, we are supposed to integrate human beings better, as Jono suggested in his blogpost here: [2].. Upstream is doing this quite well by finally introducing Folks [3] to Telepathy (hooray!!), after adopting the promising People project was cancelled IIRC, and meta contact capable Soylent didn't quite happen either... SOCIAL FROM THE START There's a blueprint for a global social API for Maverick [4] as Jan-Christoph hinted a while ago ;) Perhaps this blueprint will be ready for a review after this discussion reveals some low hanging fruit.. This problem is much older than the meta contacts bug on empathy [5].. Points in this topic that i think deserve more opinions: * unified contacts for all social apps (Telepathy: Folks) * menu or interactive list showing those online (Folks in Empathy) * show offline contacts, if i
Re: [Ayatana] Criticism of Client Side Window Decorations
On Fri, 2010-05-14 at 21:05 +0530, Akshat Jain wrote: Link Copy-Pasta http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2010/05/why-you-should-not-use-client-side-window-decorations/ http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2010/05/follow-up-on-client-side-decorations/ This guy named Martin Gräßlin is a hardcore KWin fan I think,looks like if he were a senior GNOME developer he would have replaced Metacity with KWin.Lol Design Team-? ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp I was really looking forward to client-side decorations, but Martin has pretty thoroughly changed my tune. I think there's a different problem that needs to be solved: there is a doomed effort right now to make window decorations feel like part of window clients even though the two know nothing of each other. For example, window decorations are fixed to the edges of the client area no matter what, as if they need to be. In some themes (like Lucid's Light themes) they apply some quirky tricks to blend with the client area. Perhaps more problems can be solved if window borders Stop Intruding on window clients. A few loosely related thoughts spring to mind: * It would be really super if someone would implement unobtrusive window manager controls that appear (with lots of alpha channel goodness) when the mouse reaches particular hotspots at the edge of the client area, maybe after being inside the client area. That would lead to a valid solution to Bug #160311 (https://launchpad.net/bugs/160311), among other things, and it's a requirement for client-side decorations to work at all well. * Why does a title bar have to be at the top of its respective window? This causes a serious usability problem when a window is Alt+Dragged above the screen: only the bottom part is visible, so it's impossible to drag it back unless you know how it got there. I actually am quite surprised this isn't a common issue. Why can't the title bar detach from the window and stay visible regardless of where the client has gone? * A window “title bar”, with goodies like the Close and Minimize buttons (and soon, I guess, Windicators!), serves a distinct role: it helps the user organize a window client quickly and easily. These are proxies; helpers; tools. I think “title bar” is a misnomer. * A window client, in the Linux desktop, cannot trust the window manager to do anything. As a result, we have a unique arrangement where window decorations rarely introduce new functionality that can't be achieved through the client. (Beyond managing windows themselves, of course. The client can't be reliably dragged to move it around. Now THERE is something that could be patched in all the toolkits. If we want touch support, it's a necessity). * Items in the window list mimic window title bars. (Title, icon - that's how they typically look!). Windicators could fit in there really neatly. We're moving to a world where the window manager handles more of the surrounding desktop (eg: gnome-shell), so these things could get cool. Thanks, Dylan ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Should Indicator-Session be put in the upper left corner
ne ither windows or apple has such a dedicated app to the session. both have it underneath the primary menu, and both have it on the left. I agree. I was actually discussing this very thing a few days ago in the comments of some blog. On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 7:55 AM, Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.comwrote: On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 16:48, Mark Curtis merkin...@hotmail.com wrote: The reasoning behind the controversial button movement to the left was that starting/quitting would be on the left, and status would be on the right. Given that reasoning, for consistency sake shouldn't indicator-session go on the far left since it is for starting/quitting an entire session? aha! looks interesting to me! apple does this AFAIK i'm not interested in copying windows or apple behaviour on the long run, but there's nothing wrong with doing the right thing, once you started down that path already.. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Criticism of Client Side Window Decorations
errrmm ... whow, Dylan! On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 23:59, Dylan McCall dylanmcc...@gmail.com wrote: I was really looking forward to client-side decorations, but Martin has pretty thoroughly changed my tune. I think there's a different problem that needs to be solved: there is a doomed effort right now to make window decorations feel like part of window clients even though the two know nothing of each other. For example, window decorations are fixed to the edges of the client area no matter what, as if they need to be. In some themes (like Lucid's Light themes) they apply some quirky tricks to blend with the client area. Perhaps more problems can be solved if window borders Stop Intruding on window clients. A few loosely related thoughts spring to mind: * It would be really super if someone would implement unobtrusive window manager controls that appear (with lots of alpha channel goodness) when the mouse reaches particular hotspots at the edge of the client area, maybe after being inside the client area. That would lead to a valid solution to Bug #160311 (https://launchpad.net/bugs/160311), among other things, and it's a requirement for client-side decorations to work at all well. * Why does a title bar have to be at the top of its respective window? This causes a serious usability problem when a window is Alt+Dragged above the screen: only the bottom part is visible, so it's impossible to drag it back unless you know how it got there. I actually am quite surprised this isn't a common issue. Why can't the title bar detach from the window and stay visible regardless of where the client has gone? * A window “title bar”, with goodies like the Close and Minimize buttons (and soon, I guess, Windicators!), serves a distinct role: it helps the user organize a window client quickly and easily. These are proxies; helpers; tools. I think “title bar” is a misnomer. * A window client, in the Linux desktop, cannot trust the window manager to do anything. As a result, we have a unique arrangement where window decorations rarely introduce new functionality that can't be achieved through the client. (Beyond managing windows themselves, of course. The client can't be reliably dragged to move it around. Now THERE is something that could be patched in all the toolkits. If we want touch support, it's a necessity). * Items in the window list mimic window title bars. (Title, icon - that's how they typically look!). Windicators could fit in there really neatly. We're moving to a world where the window manager handles more of the surrounding desktop (eg: gnome-shell), so these things could get cool. you saved many people a lot of saliva here. this is beautiful, much respect for your thoughts on an overlayed dynamic titlebar !!! in 2010 it's about time we think about these decorations thoroughly. so much space just wasted, i think application designers will know themselves where to place the name of their app, if they made it well and are proud of it. we don't really need a title bar for that. the window controls are also devoid of utility as you pointed out for the ALT-drag case.. this is yet another exciting thread ;) let's see what phantasies arise next.. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Criticism of Client Side Window Decorations
Why does a title bar have to be at the top of its respective window? This causes a serious usability problem when a window is Alt+Dragged above the screen: only the bottom part is visible, so it's impossible to drag it back unless you know how it got there. I actually am quite surprised this isn't a common issue. Why can't the title bar detach from the window and stay visible regardless of where the client has gone? Especially considering we already have 'rolling windows' available, is there way a way to allow windows to partially roll when the title bar is forced to the top of the screen and continued to move upwards? On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 2:59 PM, Dylan McCall dylanmcc...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, 2010-05-14 at 21:05 +0530, Akshat Jain wrote: Link Copy-Pasta http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2010/05/why-you-should-not-use-client-side-window-decorations/ http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2010/05/follow-up-on-client-side-decorations/ This guy named Martin Gräßlin is a hardcore KWin fan I think,looks like if he were a senior GNOME developer he would have replaced Metacity with KWin.Lol Design Team-? ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp I was really looking forward to client-side decorations, but Martin has pretty thoroughly changed my tune. I think there's a different problem that needs to be solved: there is a doomed effort right now to make window decorations feel like part of window clients even though the two know nothing of each other. For example, window decorations are fixed to the edges of the client area no matter what, as if they need to be. In some themes (like Lucid's Light themes) they apply some quirky tricks to blend with the client area. Perhaps more problems can be solved if window borders Stop Intruding on window clients. A few loosely related thoughts spring to mind: * It would be really super if someone would implement unobtrusive window manager controls that appear (with lots of alpha channel goodness) when the mouse reaches particular hotspots at the edge of the client area, maybe after being inside the client area. That would lead to a valid solution to Bug #160311 (https://launchpad.net/bugs/160311), among other things, and it's a requirement for client-side decorations to work at all well. * Why does a title bar have to be at the top of its respective window? This causes a serious usability problem when a window is Alt+Dragged above the screen: only the bottom part is visible, so it's impossible to drag it back unless you know how it got there. I actually am quite surprised this isn't a common issue. Why can't the title bar detach from the window and stay visible regardless of where the client has gone? * A window “title bar”, with goodies like the Close and Minimize buttons (and soon, I guess, Windicators!), serves a distinct role: it helps the user organize a window client quickly and easily. These are proxies; helpers; tools. I think “title bar” is a misnomer. * A window client, in the Linux desktop, cannot trust the window manager to do anything. As a result, we have a unique arrangement where window decorations rarely introduce new functionality that can't be achieved through the client. (Beyond managing windows themselves, of course. The client can't be reliably dragged to move it around. Now THERE is something that could be patched in all the toolkits. If we want touch support, it's a necessity). * Items in the window list mimic window title bars. (Title, icon - that's how they typically look!). Windicators could fit in there really neatly. We're moving to a world where the window manager handles more of the surrounding desktop (eg: gnome-shell), so these things could get cool. Thanks, Dylan ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ayatana] Tabs
I'll try to be brief. Currently, alt tab moves between windows. Ctrl-Tab moves between tabs in some programs, not all. Special (Win Key) and tab does nothing. It would kinda make more sense if we did this: Ctrl-Tab moves between tabs, system wide. Special and tab moves between windows (the old standard alt-tab) and alt tab moves between workspaces. General to specific, vice versa. I know it would suck to change up the alt-tab control, but we've got three keys which are (generally) in a row, and we use only two, and could make all three useful and make sense. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Tabs
On 15 May 2010 18:52, Tyler Brainerd tylerbrain...@gmail.com wrote: Er. Shoot. Thinkpads don't have them at all? No. Perhaps the newest onesfrom Lenovo might though the travel boards I bought last year still did not. After OS2, IBM wouldn't give them the satisfaction of a Windows key. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Intuitive
Grüß Gott, Thorsten ;) 2010/5/14 Thorsten Wilms t...@freenet.de: This is totally unrealistic. Humans can't even walk or talk without learning. Some say the nipple would be the only intuitive interface. I've been told that not even breast feeding just works on first try ... you're a real entertainer ;) In all your disregard for the term, let me suggest you start seeing it as a romantic metaphor. I think we all benefit from this little excourse into official nomenclature, thanks ;) In future i will try not to use this word carelessly but still intuitively. Intuition is the fastest way someone can consciously make a correct decision. Since this is valid for humans, the AI guys will definitely pick up on this for machines also, now that we have Memristors and Virtual Swarm Intelligence out there.. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ayatana] Rethink the noninteractive Live CD default boot?
I originally posted this as a question at Ayatana: https://answers.launchpad.net/ayatana-ubuntu/+question/110648 But thought I'd try this approach, please be kind. As I found out iso-testing prior to Lucid Beta 1 the Live CD now requires user interaction to display menu options: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/539172 At first this seemed fine but having used this more and more I find it to be only annoying. Consider the following: 1) It creates confusion for those who are new to Ubuntu. I've seen this a lot at the forums. 2) We've only moved the interactive part to a later point in the boot cycle because you still must choose whether to just run Ubuntu or install Ubuntu, so this really did not result in a faster boot. 3) With that move all we've done is remove the options to check CD for defects, adjust boot parameters, etc. without an otherwise unnecessary reboot which only results in frustration. 4) Even after learning of the new boot behavior the option to press any key passes so quickly that even an unplanned phone call or some other interruption can cause me to miss the opportunity, and increasing that time out would only increase the boot time. I'm curious what others think about this. We could possibly plan changes for the first point release of Lucid and I'd think certainly for Maverick, and no time like the present ;^) ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Tabs
On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 01:02, Anzan Hoshin Roshi anzanhoshinro...@gmail.com wrote: On 15 May 2010 18:52, Tyler Brainerd tylerbrain...@gmail.com wrote: Er. Shoot. Thinkpads don't have them at all? No. Perhaps the newest onesfrom Lenovo might though the travel boards I bought last year still did not. After OS2, IBM wouldn't give them the satisfaction of a Windows key. oh how i love that ;) let's call it superkey. now i am beginning to see where all usability issues are born: hardware inconsistency. okay, so let's just give the special workspaces the special case of Superkey-Tab to switch, no? ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Tabs
hi Anzan On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 02:33, Anzan Hoshin Roshi anzanhoshinro...@gmail.com wrote: okay, so let's just give the special workspaces the special case of Superkey-Tab to switch, no? No, there's no super key. Just Fn Ctrl Alt then spacebar. I have this on an R40, T40, two X41s abd on and on the travel Thinkpad keyboards (just the keyboard, not a laptop, very cool) used on five desktop boxes. oh well i know that, my friend has a Thinkpad, i loved it for not having the branded key on it ;) i'm saying, most computer keyboards, apple or non-apple, have a superkey. instead of screwing with user habits and altering the mapping of ALT-TAB, why not simply map workspaces to SUPER-TAB.. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Tabs
On Sat, 2010-05-15 at 15:37 -0700, Tyler Brainerd wrote: I'll try to be brief. Currently, alt tab moves between windows. Ctrl-Tab moves between tabs in some programs, not all. Special (Win Key) and tab does nothing. It would kinda make more sense if we did this: Ctrl-Tab moves between tabs, system wide. Special and tab moves between windows (the old standard alt-tab) and alt tab moves between workspaces. General to specific, vice versa. I know it would suck to change up the alt-tab control, but we've got three keys which are (generally) in a row, and we use only two, and could make all three useful and make sense. We can't really rely on the super key (as others have mentioned). However, since switching between desktops is already available through to Ctrl + Alt + [Arrow], we could add Super + Tab as a way to cycle through desktops in the same way Alt + Tab cycles through windows. As for Ctrl + Tab, the only app I know of that supports that is Firefox. Also, Ctrl + Tab has other uses (see link below). This does raise an interesting point though: we should probably aim for consistency for handling tabs (and shortcut keys in general). My quick test yields a few different approaches: Terminal: Focus: Ctrl + PgUp and Ctrl + PgDown Move: Ctrl + Shift + PgUp and Ctrl + Shift + PgDown Create: Ctrl + Shift + T Close: Ctrl + Shift + W New window: Ctrl + Shift + N Gedit: Focus: Ctrl + Alt + PgUp and Ctrl + Alt + PgDown Move: (can't find a way to do this) Create: Ctrl + N Close: Ctrl + W Close all: Ctrl + Shift + W New window: (can't find a way to do this) Close window: Ctrl + Q Firefox: Focus: Ctrl + PgUp and Ctrl + PgDown or Ctrl + Tab and Ctrl + Shift + Tab Move: (can't find a way to do this) Create: Ctrl + T Close: Ctrl + W New window: Ctrl + N Close window: Ctrl + Shift + W Close application: Ctrl + Q It would be nice to standardise these (and other apps). There's already a relevant section in the GNOME HIG: http://library.gnome.org/devel/hig-book/stable/input-keyboard.html.en but it doesn't say anything about tabs (although it does mention documents). ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Criticism of Client Side Window Decorations
On Sat, May 15, 2010 at 9:59 PM, Dylan McCall dylanmcc...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, 2010-05-14 at 21:05 +0530, Akshat Jain wrote: Link Copy-Pasta http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2010/05/why-you-should-not-use-client-side-window-decorations/ http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2010/05/follow-up-on-client-side-decorations/ This guy named Martin Gräßlin is a hardcore KWin fan I think,looks like if he were a senior GNOME developer he would have replaced Metacity with KWin.Lol Design Team-? ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp I was really looking forward to client-side decorations, but Martin has pretty thoroughly changed my tune. I think there's a different problem that needs to be solved: there is a doomed effort right now to make window decorations feel like part of window clients even though the two know nothing of each other. For example, window decorations are fixed to the edges of the client area no matter what, as if they need to be. In some themes (like Lucid's Light themes) they apply some quirky tricks to blend with the client area. Perhaps more problems can be solved if window borders Stop Intruding on window clients. A few loosely related thoughts spring to mind: * It would be really super if someone would implement unobtrusive window manager controls that appear (with lots of alpha channel goodness) when the mouse reaches particular hotspots at the edge of the client area, maybe after being inside the client area. That would lead to a valid solution to Bug #160311 (https://launchpad.net/bugs/160311), among other things, and it's a requirement for client-side decorations to work at all well. So the window controls are essentially invisible unless you play a hide an seek game with your mouse? I don't understand why you'd want this - and it requires some form of meaningful acceleration within apps, something that I don't think everyone has. * Why does a title bar have to be at the top of its respective window? This causes a serious usability problem when a window is Alt+Dragged above the screen: only the bottom part is visible, so it's impossible to drag it back unless you know how it got there. I actually am quite surprised this isn't a common issue. Why can't the title bar detach from the window and stay visible regardless of where the client has gone? You can do this with reparenting decorations, or even decorations which draw separately as a texture on screen (like what you already have with compiz!). You cannot do this with client side decorations. Some window managers may reparent the window and not draw decorations for it. This means that the window can never reliably tell it's position. * A window “title bar”, with goodies like the Close and Minimize buttons (and soon, I guess, Windicators!), serves a distinct role: it helps the user organize a window client quickly and easily. These are proxies; helpers; tools. I think “title bar” is a misnomer. * A window client, in the Linux desktop, cannot trust the window manager to do anything. As a result, we have a unique arrangement where window decorations rarely introduce new functionality that can't be achieved through the client. (Beyond managing windows themselves, of course. The client can't be reliably dragged to move it around. Now THERE is something that could be patched in all the toolkits. If we want touch support, it's a necessity). The window manager absolutely depends on the client to not be stupid and to obey rules (unless you want to make every client _NET_WM_OVERRIDE_REDIRECT). If a client can't be dragged to move it around, it is because the window manager strictly forbids this, and if a window manager strictly forbids this, it is because the user told it to. You should never override window management rules in the window manager. As for window decorations adding new functionality, as Martin and I have already said, you can use DBus to specify what indicators there should be, and the window manager will implement it meaningfully. If you're talking about new functionality to /manage/ the window, then again, putting that in the client is a big no-no, see point #2. * Items in the window list mimic window title bars. (Title, icon - that's how they typically look!). Windicators could fit in there really neatly. We're moving to a world where the window manager handles more of the surrounding desktop (eg: gnome-shell), so these things could get cool. If you're moving to a world where global contexts are the norm, then why not just put windicators there?
Re: [Ayatana] Tabs
On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 03:15, Luke Morton luke.mor...@internode.on.netwrote: We can't really rely on the super key (as others have mentioned). nobody said rely on some internet kiosk keyboards have no ALT or CTRL even.. most keyboards profide super key, even apple. let's work with that it for now.. It would be nice to standardise these (and other apps). There's already a relevant section in the GNOME HIG: http://library.gnome.org/devel/hig-book/stable/input-keyboard.html.en but it doesn't say anything about tabs (although it does mention documents). as USL folks with NASA already discovered, consistency is key in designing an easily learnable interface. let the guys at GNOME Usability know about your thought, they will surely include a section in the new HIG Book 3.0 ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Tabs
On Sun, 2010-05-16 at 04:06 +0200, Frederik Nnaji wrote: On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 03:15, Luke Morton luke.mor...@internode.on.net wrote: We can't really rely on the super key (as others have mentioned). nobody said rely on I did :) And I just meant we can't count on it being there so attaching core functionality like task switching to it isn't a great idea. some internet kiosk keyboards have no ALT or CTRL even.. most keyboards profide super key, even apple. let's work with that it for now.. Interesting. I hadn't considered those cases. It would be nice to standardise these (and other apps). There's already a relevant section in the GNOME HIG: http://library.gnome.org/devel/hig-book/stable/input-keyboard.html.en but it doesn't say anything about tabs (although it does mention documents). as USL folks with NASA already discovered, consistency is key in designing an easily learnable interface. let the guys at GNOME Usability know about your thought, they will surely include a section in the new HIG Book 3.0 Will do. Thanks. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Criticism of Client Side Window Decorations
I've not been keeping a close eye on this discussion (so it may have already been mentioned) but Mark Shuttleworth mentioned that CSD aren't a requirement for windicators: Yes, it's been brought up already. He said the same thing this week at the Ubuntu Developer Summit (UDS) in Brussels. This thread is about CSD generally and concerns about its impact on desktop consistency and not at all tied to windicators. Scott K ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Criticism of Client Side Window Decorations
hi sam On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 03:41, Sam Spilsbury smspil...@gmail.com wrote: So the window controls are essentially invisible unless you play a hide an seek game with your mouse? I don't understand why you'd want this - and it requires some form of meaningful acceleration within apps, something that I don't think everyone has. AIUI it has something to do with mouse pointer position relative to the window border.. I don't understand where acceleration would fit into this context.. You have a point with your cat and mouse game though.. You cannot do this with client side decorations. why not? because of the imprecision of the absolute position information? that's a WM bug, has nothing to do with CSD. The window manager absolutely depends on the client to not be stupid and to obey rules Doesn't this mean that we can entrust the client with more then? You are arguing against your own position here. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Criticism of Client Side Window Decorations
On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 10:46 AM, Frederik Nnaji frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote: hi sam On Sun, May 16, 2010 at 03:41, Sam Spilsbury smspil...@gmail.com wrote: So the window controls are essentially invisible unless you play a hide an seek game with your mouse? I don't understand why you'd want this - and it requires some form of meaningful acceleration within apps, something that I don't think everyone has. AIUI it has something to do with mouse pointer position relative to the window border.. I don't understand where acceleration would fit into this context.. If you want to make the fading smooth, then you will most likely need some form of graphical accelleration, whether that be EXA, Glitz or G3D. There is no way to guaruntee that everyone has this. You have a point with your cat and mouse game though.. You cannot do this with client side decorations. why not? because of the imprecision of the absolute position information? that's a WM bug, has nothing to do with CSD. Some window managers have to fake out position information to make this kind of thing work. Usually this is because they are reparenting the window (metacity, kwin) or they are a compositing window manager with input redirection and have to place the window offscreen to redirect input to it on-screen (Metisse, future versions of compiz). In any case, there are methods of a client determining it's position on the root window, however this is inaccurate at best and something the client shouldn't need to be concerned with. If you wanted to do separated titlebar handles, there is a lot of work that needs to go into that, namely the client drawing titlebars in a separate window and either reparenting that window into itself or drawing it separately. Which kind of begs the question - why not just let the window manager do that because it already does. If you let the window manager do this, then you can guaruntee that the titlebar will be consistent with the rules the window manager has defined and client won't all just do their own thing when their titlebar is off-screen. The window manager absolutely depends on the client to not be stupid and to obey rules Doesn't this mean that we can entrust the client with more then? You are arguing against your own position here. When you have client side decorations, you give more chances for the client to be stupid and introduce it's own window management paradigms, drawing the buttons the window manager does not expect to be drawn, or in extreme cases resizing or moving windows in special ways when they are grabbed by the titlebar. Regards, Sam -- Sam Spilsbury ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
