Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 863399] Re: Unity needs a way to switch (tab) between windows on current workspace
The Forums thread at http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1862661 is essentially correct - the relationship between Workspaces and the rest of Unity is inconsistent. That's simply because we have not yet got to implement Workspaces the way we'd like, and what's currently shipping is the Compiz Workspaces plugin bolted alongside the rest of Unity. Some pieces are already in place, for example, the Launcher distinguishes between apps running on this workspace, and other workspaces. Among many other changes we'd like to see in Workspaces: * Alt-TAB should only switch between apps on the current Workspace * Clicking on a Launcher icon for an app running elsewhere but not in the current Workspace, which knows how to have multiple windows and create new windows, should create a new window in the current Workspace I've cc'd John Lea and Stewart Wilson who are the right folk to lead further discussion. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Comments on the Device User Menu specs
Hi Jeremy, thanks for your mail. On 02/08/11 00:35, Jeremy Bicha wrote: Since I help out on the Documentation Team, I value clear user interface terminology so that users, powerusers, and maybe even developers can use the same, understandable language. The old session menu name became unclear when System Settings was added to it, but I have to say that device menu is an even worse name. I strongly prefer calling this menu the system menu since the items here are generally system actions or configurations. Also, it's parallel to the power menu having a power settings button and the sound menu having a sound settings button. +1 from me. I'd like to hear MPT's opinion on this, but if he raises no objections consider that an approval to move forward. If he does, I'll be glad to resolve it one way or the other. http://pad.lv/815077 was reported about the lack of a Restart button. It appears as though the spec is that Restart will only be shown if restart-required updates have not been applied. A typical user will want to restart to Windows or OS X. A fair number of developers have another Ubuntu install or Linux distribution they would like to reboot to use. Requiring users to log out before they restart seems to make a common usecase more frustrating. If the desire is to reduce menu option clutter, I suggest keeping the option as Shut Down (or Power Off might be a good descriptive alternative). And then use a pop-up like Gnome Shell to allow Restart, Shutdown (automatic after 60 seconds), or Cancel. See http://i.imgur.com/lLPoL.png +1 also. Login Items (Startup Applications) has only a very narrow, power user use case especially in its current condition. I have never used it for anything useful. For power users, it's easily findable in the Dash. Agreed. Since Bluetooth has its own menu, it definitely should not be in the system menu. Many computers don't have bluetooth support anyway. Honestly, I strongly question the need to have direct links here to individual panels of System Settings. The most common options (Power, Bluetooth, Sound, etc.) already are consistently at the bottom of their respective menus. Displays also should just work for most people; for others, set once and then always work. Bluetooth will either move to the new menu, or stay special-cased on the panel, not both. Devices sounds like it should also include the ability to unmount removable drives, but perhaps this is a conflict with the Places Lens thing. We might drop the launcher visibility of mounted drives, based on user testing. I very much like having System Settings at the top of the system menu and the Lock/Sleep/Power options at the buttom. I also like the Software Updates status incorporated into the system menu. Thanks :-) Mark ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] New Alt-Tab
On 28/07/11 22:20, Evan Huus wrote: Admittedly, I've never used the spatial alternative proposed here, but I imagine it would be much nicer if I could know 'four tabs is app X' all the time, rather than, 'four tabs is the fourth-most-recently-used, which was, uh, what again?' Then you might like the Super+n key combinations, holding down Super (the Windows key on many laptops) and pressing 0-9 will launch/switch to that launcher. Hold down Super for a while to see the actual number. I would also be happy to try a patch which used Super+TAB the way we've discussed, tabbing through the launcher. Mark ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] New Alt-Tab
It's a lovely idea, and three consecutive designers have dashed themselves on the rocks trying to get it right. I'd be thrilled if someone could do better! Here's what we found each time we tried it: *The launcher is spatial, the alt-tab is logical.* The alt-tab works best when it is a stack, with the most recently used stuff first. Toggling between apps is always a single alt-tab, and moving between a small group of apps scales up accordingly, alt-tab-tab-tab gets you to the third most recently used app/window. If you want to jump more than one step back in the stack, you want to be able to see where you are going. And this is the problem with the launcher, in order to give a sense of trajectory, you would need to reorder the items on the launcher. Which breaks people's sense of where things are and makes the launcher seem arbitrary. On the other hand, you could jump from item to item, but then you are not providing any clue as to where the next tab will send you. Which feels sucky (we tried it :-)). So, it's an interesting exercise and a very attractive idea, and if someone can make it work I would embrace the patch, but I think it's one of those attractive-but-wrong sinkholes. Prove me wrong :-) Mark On 28/07/11 15:52, Owas Lone wrote: Great Idea. On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 7:42 PM, Alex Launialex.la...@canonical.com wrote: I love this. It really just makes alt-tab a keybinding for features we already have. Very clean, very simple, and enhances the idioms we've already started developing. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] No one will ever use the upper-left Ubuntu button
Let's see what people who try it have to say. Don't worry if there is negative feedback, that's what exploring and testing are all about. Thanks for making the testable mockup. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] No one will ever use the upper-left Ubuntu button
On 09/03/11 20:40, David wrote: Hello again, http://unity.exemo.net/ A great start for testing, thanks! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] No one will ever use the upper-left Ubuntu button
On 08/03/11 14:14, Marc Lajoie wrote: If I had a say (which I don't), I'd have a two-sided dock: on one side, the application buttons, on the other, the function buttons. The Ubuntu button would flip the dock over (perhaps with a pretty revolving animation!). See the attached mockup. Of course, if the dock is hidden, the first click will recall it. The second click will flip the dock. It might seem to waste time to have the extra click to get to the function buttons, but I think it comes to the same as having to hunt through the application buttons in the dock to find them. An interesting suggestion - maybe a web-based mockup would help test it? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] No one will ever use the upper-left Ubuntu button
On 07/03/11 11:06, frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Mark, On Mon, Mar 7, 2011 at 08:16, Mark Shuttleworth mark.shuttlewo...@canonical.com mailto:mark.shuttlewo...@canonical.com wrote: The dash / launcher can be revealed with a 4-drag from left to right on touch devices. Will this ever be possible on synaptics clickpads and touchpads, too? Yes, if they support 4-touch, otherwise they will be used as pointing devices, clicking on the button. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] No one will ever use the upper-left Ubuntu button
On 06/03/11 22:02, Martín A. Casco wrote: Click on Ubuntu's Icon for some shortcuts, lets see.. Apps (we an icon on Launcher for that); Files and Folders (same situation that Apps); then, Banshee (Sound Menu or Launcher if we want), Web Browser (include on Launcher out of the box), Shotwell (same that Browser if we want).. I mean, from Ubuntu's icon we can access to Web Browser, Apps, Files/Folders, Banshee, Shotter... But, from Launcher we can access to the same apps, folder or shortcuts. We have 3 icons for access the same Dash with 3 different (unnecessary) filtering options. Yes, the degree of overlap between the launcher and the shortcuts bears thinking about. In part, we were concerned that a user might inadvertently remove one of the key apps from the launcher, and the shortcuts would thus provide a standardised way to restore them. We deliberately made the shortcuts shrinkable, and a future update will use that fact to make the Dash leaner and neater. We've said we want to use icon styling to differentiate between dash lenses and applications. So: - Maybe it could be better eliminate Apps and File/Folder's icons from Launcher and integrate them on Ubuntu's icon. - Use Ubuntu's Icon for show System Information or another useful option/application. Putting system settings in the shortcuts is one option, yes. - Have it be a trigger to recall the dock. This would be useful in the case of a touch interface, so that the dock's autohide may be used on touch-enabled devices (esp. ones with limited screen real-estate) This last idea it's great! None of the menu bar elements is touch friendly. A touch point needs to be 8mm square, by our definition. 22px is much less on any normal display. So this is not a great plan. The dash / launcher can be revealed with a 4-drag from left to right on touch devices. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Launcher DnD - import applications on DnD start
On 22/02/11 13:28, John Lea wrote: I think there are two different interactions we can implement here, one that is mostly additional functionality and a second that needs further thought and visual design treatment. --- 1) Find all apps that can open a specific file type. In this interaction, when a user starts dragging a file (or files) the 'App Lens' is one of the Launcher icons that highlighted indicating it is a valid drop receptacle. Dragging the file over the app lens launcher icon reveals the app lens showing only the applications which can open the specific file type(s). Use Case 1 - Continued drag and drop The user then continues dragging the file and drops it on a application icon in the app lens. The action closes the app lens and opens the file in the selected application (installing the application first if necessary). We can't just install an app with such a lightweight signal. We need to: * clearly distinguish between apps which are installed, and apps which are not * provide an intermediate do you want to install this confirmation en route to *s*a*t*i*s*f*a*c*t*i*o*n* :-) Use Case 2 - Drop then select The user drops the file on the app lens icon. They then click on the application in the app lens they want to use to open the file. The action closes the app lens and opens the file in the selected application (installing the application first if necessary). I think dropping content on a lens is a concept we should explore in more detail for Natty+1. I can see it being relevant for lenses which might also be storage interfaces - think a Flickr lens. But because a lens is intrinsically open-ended, I find dropping on the lens itself a little mysterious. Gliding *through* the lens, to some more obvious destination, is better, as might be a quicklist-target. Use Case 3 - Abandon action and exit If the user decides to abandon the action they can either: a) drag the file back on to the launcher, this closes the app lens b) drag the file outside of the dash area (only applies to the desktop dash) c) drop the file in any area of the dash that is not a application icon We do need to think through the general case of abandoning a drag-through. Similarly in the drag-through-an-app-spread story. Considerations: a) In the use cases described above, the app lens should display two category headers. These should be Installed Apps that can open .jpg files and Apps Available for Download that can open .jpg files. Both of these categories should be expanded by default. +1 What about cases where there are too many of them? b) For use case 1 (continued drag and drop) dragging the file to the bottom or top of the app lens should initiate a auto-scroll behavior +1 too :-) --- 2) Display the currently installed default app that can open the specific file type in the Launcher (if it is not there already). While I like the interaction because it increases the vocabulary of drag and drop launcher behavior, it is essentially a *slower* way of performing exactly the same action as double clicking or tapping on the file. It is, however, explicit rather than implicit. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana-dev] appmenu-gtk api for disabling aplication menus
On 22/01/11 17:05, Karel Karlitos Macha jr. wrote: I would like to ask if there is a possibility - for example with appmenu-gtk API - to let the application menus disappear without the need of starting indicator applet. I am developping a Linux based kiosk for older people and the possibility to hide the menus in the GTK applications would be very handy. Till now I had to add gnome/xfce panel with indicator applet to cause the menu hiding efect. Is there any other possibility for example to send messages over Dbus with python or so ? Karel, not sure if you had any direct responses, I didn't see anything on-list. Yes, you should be able to claim to apps that you are displaying menus, without actually doing it. Apps go out to see if there's an agent that will display them, and if so, they don't do it themselves. Have fun :-) Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana-dev Post to : ayatana-dev@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana-dev More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] I don't think global menu and the panel is good for a touch OS
On 18/01/11 18:09, Conscious User wrote: They are very different things, and a design that works well for one will hardly ever work well for the other. I'm a little bit confused now because Mark's blog post about Unity clearly stated that some design decisions were motivated by touch devices. Is the Unity design still taking touch into consideration or this was completely dropped once it was decided that Desktops would use it too? No. Menu's are inherently antagonistic to touch. They are not salvageable in their current form, so we're making no effort to do so. As MPT has said clearly here, if you want to make a touch friendly *app*, you need to use touch friendly styling and gestures. And not depend on menus at all. Utouch makes that easy to do, but you won't get touchiness for free in the app, you have to design for it. Similarly, we didn't get it for free in the shell, we had to design for it. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Better use of backlight in Unity launcher
We're experimenting with different uses of the backlight. For example, we'd like to experiment with using that to show focus in the keyboard navigation case (Alt-F1). I don't think running is useful, given we already have the symbolic pips, and I think there are risks to changing the look of the icon when people are scanning lots of them quickly. Suggestions welcome :-) Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Launcher DnD - import applications on DnD start
Great suggestions all! How about this: - if no app on the launcher can handle this type, and there is a default launcher, we put it at the bottom (where it would launch) and wiggle it to call attention to it - we also allow drag to the apps place, which would open (on hover) with the top section showing all known apps which could handle that type Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
I think we should provide a standard collapsing approach for things which could be window indicators and which are commonly system indicators too, like volume. When maximised, the window indicator is embedded in the system indicator (so there's only one volume indicator, and in there you find what you probably expect to find). Needs cogent thinking, but I think it's doable. Mark On 04/01/11 20:06, Carl Simpson wrote: To clarify, I mean people tend to want that somewhere in the front-and-centre interface; I'm aware that it's there in gnome-volume-control. 2011/1/4 Carl Simpson cwd.simp...@gmail.com mailto:cwd.simp...@gmail.com 2011/1/4 Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com mailto:m...@ubuntu.com When maximised, they go into the panel, on the right, left of any app-indicators. Can we can assume from this that per-application functions, such as volume control and network status, wont be tenable uses of the windicator idea, since this would result in duplicates (e.g., two volume controls) or confusingly similar items in the panel when applications are maximised? If that is the case, then as a side note: I get the sense that per-application volume control is something that people generally think that they want- is there any plan for that sort of thing? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 20/02/11 18:39, Mitja Pagon wrote: Using the example of volume control mentioned below, am I the only one who thinks windicators make little sense and are in fact bad UX. No, of course you are not the only person, there's lots of dissent, which is fine and stimulates discussion to get a better result. Follow my example. What is the added benefit of having the per-application volume control as windicator. Music players already have per application volume controls in their UIs and space gained by moving them into the window title is minimal. Are there any other benefits am missing? It would not make sense to have volume controls both inside the UI, and in the title bar as an indicator. But the suggestion of course was to let apps *move* that functionality to the indicator, not duplicate the functionality. Indicators are abstract, logical entities that are exported from the app. They can thus be useful in more general cases. For example, in the window spread views, indicators could be rendered at full size, so their semantic meaning can be scanned in the spread view. They could even be interactive in those views, allowing one to set the appropriate volume for multiple windows, quickly, in the volume example. On the other hand you are adding visual clutter to the title bar, introducing confusing behavior, as the same indicator is sometimes applications specific, other times it system wide, not to mention you are giving yourself additional technical problems to solve and thus requiring more resources. All of this are negative implications of this idea. Giving technical problems to solve is called challenging the engineers and we rather like to do that, and they rather like it too, round here ;-) As long as the work feels like it is foundational and will stick around for a long time and be used, solving hard problems is worthwhile. If you apply simple math to this you can conclude that he negatives of this idea outweigh the positives. There are some other use cases mentioned, but most of the same logic applies and as for using windicators for notifying users there is already notify-osd. Notify-OSD is purely for momentary events, not status. Indicators combine status and manipulation of the status, they are entirely different from notifications. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] The Unity launcher and minimized windows
Minimize is really hide. It means keep this window alive, but get it out of my desktop view. The window is still in every sense part of the working set of windows, so it should show up in glorious technicolour during things like spread and alt-tab. Sam, would you make it so? It sounds like you're already on track ;-) Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Some ideas for the Software Center
I agree, we don't need pre-emptive downloading of packages without an explicit user request for installation. On 13/12/10 11:52, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: Like apt-get, USC installs recommended items by default, though you can uncheck them in the Add-ons section if you want to. No doubt it's in your head already, but we could do a lot better with package recommendations than simply looking at the Recommends metadata. For example, if the user has python-dev installed, and installs libmysql directly rather than as a dependency, we could recommend the Python bindings and development libraries. I suspect a lot of this will require some server-side smarts but it's a fruitful area for us to be exploring. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Graceful degradation of Unity
On 13/12/10 17:17, Spike Burch wrote: What I would do, although this is duplicating effort in the long run, is write a 2d version of unity using EFL, just like they did with the old netbook interface That's what I would do too :-) For 11.04, the focus is on getting Unity-with-GL as good as we can. However, in time for the LTS, we will want a 2D experience which shares enough of the interactions that it doesn't require a second set of documentation. As Ryan Prior pointed out, Unity is unproven. We're confident in it - enough to commit to it for 11.04, and the design has been flattered with imitation elsewhere, so that's reassuring too :-). But having the existing Gnome 2 style panel-based fallback is fine in 11.04 because it provides a familiar environment for those who want it, and is stable and well trusted. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Why the launcher should be on the right
On 19/12/10 17:22, Mirek M. wrote: *The whole left side of the screen would be devoted to the current application* Right now, you get some system-related commands on the right of the top panel, application-related commands on the left, and some more system-related commands on the far left. Moving the launcher and the Ubuntu button to the right would put all the system-related commands on the right and all the app-related commands on the left, so neither the launcher nor the Ubuntu button gets in the way when working with a single application. One idea we try to preserve is the hierarchy of information, which says that (in left-to-right languages) organising structure should be on the left, and content on the right. In this case, the launcher is very much organising structure. *A hot corner wouldn't get in the way* Keeping application commands separate from system commands is especially important to workflow when you have areas that activate on hover (e.g. Ubuntu button). It is extremely annoying and distracting when you accidentally mouse over a hot cornerand have to wait a few seconds to get back to work. As the menu bar and window buttons are aligned left, and as most toolbars are also left-aligned, a hot corner on the right will be less likely to be accidentally triggered than a hot corner on the left. At the moment, the corner is overly sensitive because the launcher shows up for a few seconds if you go over the Ubuntu button. But in fact, it should actually require you to hit the corner. Fixing that should reduce the impact of this feeling. *The application would get the most focus* As most languages are read from left to right, our focus tends to start at the left side of the screen. If the goal of Unity is to maintain focus on a single task, it makes most sense to put the launcher somewhere where it doesn't distract from the application -- on the right. Well, when you are focused on an app, the launcher should be invisible. Balancing focus and awareness is a key design goal for us in Unity, hence the intellihiding approach. There are other things we can do to take this even further, but they'll have to wait for 11.10. *Tools would be easier to target* Most image editors, raster or vector, have a Tools sidebar on the left, which is very easy to target when it is at the edge of the screen, but very hard to target when there's a launcher at the left edge of the screen. Again, the app should generally get all the real estate, including the left edge, solving this issue (i.e. giving Fitt's Law friendly edges to the app). I hope that this is enough to at least consider moving the launcher to the right. Good points, well argued, but I'm afraid the balance remains in favour of the left edge for now. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Compatibility goals for Natty appmenu
On 31/12/10 11:02, Conscious User wrote: I'm curious with respect to the appmenu compatibility goals targeted for Natty. So far there are some important apps non-compatible with it: XUL apps [Open,Libre]Office Swing apps SWT apps MonoDevelop I know that XUL is being worked on, but I heard no news about the rest. I'm particularly interested in SWT compatibility as an Eclipse user. Each of these will need a bit of work from both folks working on Unity tech, and the projects / toolkits themselves. In the case of XUL, there are folks working on it from both Unity and Mozilla. We'll need someone to step up in each case, so if you know people in those communities, please get them aware of the issue and see if there's someone interested in being the counterpart, then put them in touch with Ted Gould or Cody Russell. I've filed a bug in LibreOffice, and it's received a little attention already. I'm sure it will be a popular issue, but getting a developer interested is the most important bit. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Indicator-Network
Apoorva posted the correct item, which is the desired design for the network indicator. We're currently implementing that, with Connection Manager as a backend. It's not ready for prime time, but chat to Kalle Valo if you're interested in helping out. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 10/12/10 06:52, Shane Fagan wrote: On Fri, 2010-12-10 at 12:04 +0530, Owais Lone wrote: Just wanted to check. Are Windicators targeted for Natty? How much work has been done? What if I wanted to play with it a little? No there was no talk about anything unless canonical have it going on it. I'd love to see it done, but it's not critical to getting Unity out there which is our mission for 11.04. So if you're interested: - look at the AppIndicator protocol / API's - chat with Mikkel on IRC, or Ted Gould, depending on your timezones - sketch out an API which essentially generalises AppIndicator, so an app can publish multiple window indicators on the dbus, each window indicator behaving just like an AppIndicator: it's an icon (which can change) and a menu (which can change) - we can arrange to patch Compiz to put the windicators in the window title bar or panel Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Compiz close-buttons on expose
For completeness on this thread, I'd like to say: - yes, we should show a close button on window previews in our spreads - it should only be the close button, none of the other window controls are relevant - it should only appear on mouse proximity (fallback - mouseover, prefer - fade-in with proximity like the notify-osd proximity effects) - it should be full-sized, not scaled, of course :-) Sam, is that sufficient guidance, or would a mockup help? Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity and tooltips
On 17/10/10 11:39, Vishnoo wrote: Is there a reason Unity's Launcher has tooltips for applications and places? [While Application icons could be considered as unrecognizable, Places icons are our custom icons so they should atleast be a bit recognizable.Still not sure how these tooltips are more important...] We give the name of the application because, if you don't know the icon, there's absolutely no way to know what it is otherwise. We dropped tooltips elsewhere because they were by-and-large trying to convey overly-detailed information. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Contributions?
On 17/11/10 20:30, Carsten Agger wrote: That may be inconvenient, as people here mostly speak Danish, a tiny language not understood outside our borders ... which means such videos will be less useful for people in most of the world. Well, multi-cultural testing is really valuable, as sometimes people react quite differently to an icon, or expect to find things in a very different place, based on cultural patterns. What really matters to *us* is your write-up of the findings. So for example, if you decided to test how easily a new user can move photos from their camera to facebook, you could write up the findings in English even if the video itself was folks chatting in Danish. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 04/01/11 02:44, Shane Fagan wrote: On the design of the windicators, how exactly do they fit? Im not really getting a good image in my head about how they will be fitting in since the area that they were supposed to be put into is going to be removed for maximized windows. When maximised, they go into the panel, on the right, left of any app-indicators. [U OOO Application Name or Menu W W W A A A S S S S ] Where: - U = Ubuntu button - O = Window controls - W = Windicators for the maximised window - A = App indicators - S = System indicators Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 692921] Re: Allow for the panel to be disabled (wishlist)
On 22/12/10 04:53, Frederik Nnaji wrote: On Tue, 2010-12-21 at 17:10 +0100, zekopeko wrote: I think that a decent solution for 11.04 would be to create a temporary workspace for the fullscreen app so that it shows in the Expo (Workspace switcher) mode but once the app is un-fullscreen-ed it would return to the workspace from which it originated (no fancy animation transitions). Alt-Tab-ing while the fullscreen app is focused would tab-between workspaces and not applications. If you alt-tab while a non-fullscreen applications is focused (so you can see the launcher and the panel) would tab between applications that are currently open and the fullscreen apps. they removed ALT+F2, so i'm not even sure they'll keep ALT+TAB. Alt-F2 is just not yet implemented, it's filed as a bug and will get fixed. Of course we'll retain Alt-TAB! *Close, MaxVert, Fullscreen Mode* in a recent thread, i suggested to add a button to the window controls: fullscreen. This, because many users don't even know what fullscreen mode is, except for in movie players.. they learn it on youtube, where there is a more than obvious fullscreen button, and start looking for such a button in totem, vlc etc.. The issue then is to figure out how to get OUT of fullscreen :-) The approach we are taking is reversible gestures, where a particular gesture gets you into a fullscreen situation, and reversing the gesture (I wave my hands furiously ;-)) gets you out. *Floating Indicators* One could think of single icons popping up upon transient events top right corner of a fullscreen window, provided i'm not set to do not disturb. But the visibility of single icons popping up above whatever content is beneath them is low. WingPanel is an excellent option here, it would only have to be transparent, and it would have to know when it is above the content area of an application in fullscreen mode. Yes, there are some interesting ideas in wingpanel, and I'd encourage experimentation and discussion here. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: Fwd: Super Compiz Unity Mockup Idea!!!!
On 21/12/10 22:47, Carl Simpson wrote: Isn't it still confusing that you have disabled window controls near the menus for, and the name of, the active window? That tells me that I can't maximise, minimise or close the active window. This is a message that conflicts with that given by the ones in its own window decorations. Yes - Martin's mockup doesn't reflect the plan or direction. The panel, if it show window controls, should ONLY show them for the maximised AND focused window. If you have a maximised app, and a normal window over it that has the focus, the panel should only show information for the focused app. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 692921] Re: Allow for the panel to be disabled (wishlist)
We definitely need a natural way to move between full screen (no panel) and panelled mode, across multiple apps. And perhaps we need a good way for things like indicators to show up at appropriate times, when the panel is not being displayed. So kudos to the Elementary team for their explorations with wingpanel. In terms of space efficiency, though, if you maximise a window and have wingpanel float over it, you effectively have the same thing as the design goal for 11.04 Unity: maximised windows put titles / window controls / windicators into the panel themselves. And if you're not using a maximised window then space efficiency is by definition not your primary concern. I can see that there's a lightness of the desktop without the panel, yes. So I think this idea has merit and is worth exploration. I would welcome mockups and discussion on the Ayatana list, cc'd. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Fwd: Re: Presence via Me Menu]
On 16/12/10 12:56, Martín A. Casco wrote: There is an interesting mail here about unifying Messaging Menu and Me Menu... for example, launch empathy (or Pidgin if installed) from Messaging Menu, see contacts chats from messaging menu, but if we want to set quickly our chat status we have tu use Me Menu... Maybe a unified option could be mor logical and better. On Gwibber, launch and see mentions or DM from Messaging menu, but if we want to twit we have to go to Me Menu, delete de Publicar en Twitter (I'm from Argentina) and write our twit, but there is no shorter URL (Like twitter) and sometimes notification bubble interfere... I believe that a unified solution could be better, don't you? Yes, I do. The biggest issue has been finding a way to make that compact enough to be a clean indicator. We can have another stab at that for 11.10. Whatever we do there will need to stick for 12.04 LTS. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Presence via Me Menu
On 09/09/10 11:00, Frederik Nnaji wrote: I was hoping Mission Control 5 in Telepathy would make it possible to change back to online, away or busy, even when Empathy says my accounts are offline. Another thing is, that i'm being logged out, not sent offline. My computer is still online, it's just that IM accounts are being logged out. This is why i don't understand the use case of offline, if all it does is actually log out. If offline was to be a state of Presence, it would be better if i could alternate between offline and the other states of Presence via the MeMenu directly. Now remains the question, why in the implementation the Presence part of the MeMenu is disabled when all Empathy-configured accounts are offline.. Sorry for the response to old email, but I didn't see a follow-up. If empathy is not running, you should be able to launch it simply by changing your status to Available or another online state. In other words, the states should be achievable even if that means first starting empathy. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] unity and notifications
On 16/09/10 16:25, Conscious User wrote: Le jeudi 16 septembre 2010 à 13:29 +0100, Luke Benstead a écrit : On 15 September 2010 17:25, Greg K Nicholson g...@gkn.me.uk wrote: On 15 September 2010 16:54, Conscious User consciousu...@aol.com wrote: I know it's the space for the confirmation bubbles, but I think it would be much better if those appeared in another place entirely, like a bottom corner. I've suggested before that synchronous notifications (e.g. volume) should appear horizontally centred. Then the asynchronous notifications (IM etc.) can appear immediately below the top panel, at the right. No-one has come up with any drawback whatsoever to this design —yet ;) -- Greg That's definitely the best solution I've heard yet. Why are we not doing that? Luke. As a matter of fact, because the confirmation bubbles have a fixed size, they can be placed pretty much anywhere with little issues. If I were to guess the reason of the current placement, is that the designers believe that giving the user two different places from which bubbles can come from is confusing. Can someone confirm? We want to keep notifications and indicators in relatively close proximity. Synchronous (keyboard-response, user-generated, self-overwriting) notifications like volume-up and -down are on top, because that area has more precious content (firefox search, for example) than the area just below it, and because they are fixed-size, where the async ones are variable-size. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Desktop Silent Mode
On 16/12/10 18:42, frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote: Hi SABDFL, Yikes, that's much better in lowercase. In upper, it's more D than :-D This has probably been lying around for so long, because of design conflicts with how the Ayatana subsystem is currently wired. * Presence has no local effect Well, don't think of that menu as presence, think of it as desired presence. I.e., if the user wants to be present, she can signal it there, and we can make it so. * Presence has no effect on Skype (except with Pidgin running) - https://bugs.launchpad.net/indicator-me/+bug/684678 Don't worry about Skype for now - get a great design, and we'll have a word with them. Everything is possible. * System Sounds are not connected with notifications (perhaps with Dylan's patch?) - Dylan, what's the status/bug ;) ? Yeah, I'm keen to get that sorted out too :-) Busy aka DoNotDisturb has been around for as long as i know Presence in IM, now is the time to implement it for the local system. I would like to discuss the above problems in order to get some opinions, before i am confident that i can draft a simple spec for Silent Mode aka Do Not Disturb aka Presence=Busy. I'm not sure Busy is the same, but I think Silent and DND are the same. * Invisible doesn't really work - it jumps to busy always Let's get a spec together, and perhaps a hero will step forward. * the Session Menu is on the wrong side of the panel (imo) Fuggedaboudit ;-) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Allowing windows to move past launchers
On 09/12/10 10:59, Didier Roche wrote: Le jeudi 09 décembre 2010 à 18:55 +0800, Sam Spilsbury a écrit : Hi, I was doing some work on the snap windows plugin for compiz and I was wondering if it is the correct behaviour design wise to allow windows to move underneath the launcher and the panel. Currently we have it so that windows snap to the launcher but the user can move the window past the launcher if they move hard enough but I was wondering if we should even allow windows to move past these panels in the first place. Let me know what you all think. We should just perhaps agree on the snap value? I mean, we want to avoid false positive on intellihide but still enabling people to have intellihide :) In the intellihide, moving the window against the launcher should kick the launcher out immediately, as it currently does. I think Sam's referring more to the case where the launcher is locked in place, not intellihide. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Allowing windows to move past launchers
On 09/12/10 17:43, Sam Spilsbury wrote: My idea was this: 1) On the intellihide case: [...] - When resizing a window, if the resize border touches the launcher, it goes away, easy I'd like to see a proximity push in this case. When the window is brought close to the launcher, we start to push the launcher away. Say, when the edge of the window is 10px from the launcher, we start to move the launcher 1px for each 2px it approaches. When the window gets to the point where it would have touched the launcher, the launcher goes away. I think this would feel a little more organic and real than the current insta-trigger. The px values might best be shared with the notify-osd proximity-effect fade boundary too. 2) On the fixed launcher case: - We set the strut property, so no implicit incorrect placement - On maximization the window does not cover the launcher - Windows cannot be resized underneath the launcher - Windows cannot be moved underneath the launcher. The reason for the fourth one is because we have the window buttons on the left - we do not want to have to obscure them in the case that we move a window. Let's do some testing with a less rigid interpretation - allow the window to be resized or moved so its left edge is under the launcher, but make sure it encounters some resistance when it touches, before pushing through under the launcher. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Sound Menu
On 11/11/10 12:21, frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote: and yeah.. the speaker icons to the left and to the right of the volume slider should receive visual focus on hover, according to how i understand consistency in the careful treatment of threefold horizontal control elements in Sound Menu.. What do you think? Some sort of indication that the volume slider is active would be good, yes. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Sound Menu
On 09/11/10 20:05, frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Mark, On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 20:21, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com mailto:m...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 09/11/10 01:36, frederik.nn...@gmail.com mailto:frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 15:54, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com mailto:m...@ubuntu.com wrote: Because of the potential issues horizontal navigation introduces in indicator menus, we have tried to take great care to specify the exact behaviour whenever horizontal nav within a menu is a possibility. Please do report cases that don't work, or which are not precisely and completely spec'd. I'd like to know if you have a spec or guideline for how to use horizontal menu elements. The Sound Menu wiki didn't specify anything about horizontal menu elements, the only reference is this mail of yours.. What i know so far about how to design with horizontal elements: * use only where necessary * try to design for easy pointer-aiming ( as few horizontal elements as possible) * look out for cases of mutual exclusion to help reduce the number of simultaneously displayed items * use for frequently accessed controls that must be close to each other * use for controls that have a special semantic proximity (e.g. backward, pause/play, forward) looking through the Indicator Menus, i found 2 places where horizontal elements were being used so far, both in the Sound Menu: a) the volume bar with the Mute button (loudspeaker with no waves), Fader, Full Volume Button (loudspeaker with three waves). b) playback controls what can we deduct from this? First of all, that we have two Mute buttons in the Sound Menu... Second: It *is* possible to design a comfortable menu interaction experience with horizontal elements. I don't think we have a comprehensive horizontal-nav guideline, yet. I do think we have a policy that cases where horizontal behaviour is introduced need to be carefully thought through and documented - The Sound Menu spec is exemplary, thanks for that! I thought for example that the Sound Menu specified the following behaviour for the playback controls: moving down or up to the playback controls should place the visible focus on the play button, where space would pause/play, and left/right would trigger previous/next returning the focus immediately to the play button. It might be specced, but it's not implemented. I didn't find a bug for that yet, so here's a new one: no visible focus on horizontal controls https://bugs.launchpad.net/indicator-sound/+bug/673185 the keyboard controls don't work for me, yet, i guess that's still in the making, is it? Conor is the right person to ask on this! Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Sound Menu
On 09/11/10 20:39, Jeremy Nickurak wrote: On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 13:31, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com mailto:m...@ubuntu.com wrote: On 09/11/10 20:07, Jeremy Nickurak wrote: On Tue, Nov 9, 2010 at 12:21, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com mailto:m...@ubuntu.com wrote: I don't think we have a comprehensive horizontal-nav guideline, yet. I do think we have a policy that cases where horizontal behaviour is introduced need to be carefully thought through and documented - I thought for example that the Sound Menu specified the following behaviour for the playback controls: moving down or up to the playback controls should place the visible focus on the play button, where space would pause/play, and left/right would trigger previous/next returning the focus immediately to the play button. Really? Keyboard controls on hovering on a menu item would seem to have really really low discoverability. I never would have imagined to try such a thing. No, this is keyboard navigation, nothing to do with mouse hover. Aren't right/left supposed to switch between menus? Yes, they are, and hence the need to think this through carefully. The calculus was that the normal user flipping between menus is running along the top item in the menu. If they've come all the way down to the playback controls, left and right can reasonably be interpreted as next/previous track rather than go to the menu left or right of the sound menu. That's a tradeoff, but it's a calculated one rather than an accident. The movement in the focus (briefly to the next/previous button, then back to the play/pause button) should make this explicit. We faced a similar, harder, problem with the Me Menu. The top entry there is a broadcast textbox. That used to trap focus, meaning that left and right were interrupted. We said left/right there should jump to the next menu if the textbox was empty, to resolve that issue. I'm saying: we don't have a full, complete, definitive guideline, only a guideline to think through this and try to balance common patterns and behaviours, backed by user testing. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ayatana] Workspace representations in the Launcher
I'm replying both to the bug, and to the Ayatana list, about the suggestion exemplified in the mockup at http://launchpadlibrarian.net/58399971/Launcher%20d.png First, thanks David for a very interesting idea, and for expressing it in a series of mockups that let people get a visual handle on the suggestion, that's a good technique and facilitates discussion of the design. For now, we'd prefer to keep workspaces confined to a single icon on the launcher. We do want to improve the experience folks have when they use that icon, however: - by default, in Natty this will do a desktop spread showing all the windows on the current workspace, rather than the Maverick behaviour of showing all the workspaces. This is to accommodate the fact that most people only use one workspace, and everyone starts out that way till they activate the others. - you will be able to jump smoothly between workspaces in this view, and move windows from the current workspace to any other workspace very easily. - however, we will limit the number of workspaces to 4 in Natty, with experimentation under way for more workspaces in line with the interactions we support in Natty. I do like the idea of being able to drag a window directly to a workspace, and we should consider whether dragging the launcher of a running app could be used for that. A question, though - would dragging the launcher move ALL the windows of that app to that workspace, or just the most recently focused window? Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana-commits] [Merge] lp:~cimi/indicator-messages/fixes-to-right-label-and-icon-dimension into lp:indicator-messages
Icon guidelines for these should specify that they use the left middle pixel, and go right from there. THat way, the triangle always touches. Mark -- https://code.launchpad.net/~cimi/indicator-messages/fixes-to-right-label-and-icon-dimension/+merge/37272 Your team ayatana-commits is subscribed to branch lp:indicator-messages. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana-commits Post to : ayatana-commits@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana-commits More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana-commits] [Merge] lp:~cimi/indicator-messages/fixes-to-right-label-and-icon-dimension into lp:indicator-messages
On 07/10/10 22:46, Ted Gould wrote: On Thu, 2010-10-07 at 21:51 +0100, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: Icon guidelines for these should specify that they use the left middle pixel, and go right from there. THat way, the triangle always touches. Should we shift them if not? We don't replace all the icons currently for things like the Google Voice Notifier (community project that isn't in the archives, only PPA) so there will always be some that don't follow that rule. We can guideline it and file bugs against those that don't do it correctly. My concern with shifting would be that we'd create a situation where the icon would feel off center. I'm not sure how bad that'd be though if the icon wasn't square in the first place. It's OK if they all line up along the left edge. They are likely to be of equal width. Mark -- https://code.launchpad.net/~cimi/indicator-messages/fixes-to-right-label-and-icon-dimension/+merge/37272 Your team ayatana-commits is subscribed to branch lp:indicator-messages. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana-commits Post to : ayatana-commits@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana-commits More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On 09/09/10 13:20, Vishnoo wrote: I dont think there is a bug regarding that color change either.. Someone should first file the bug. :) Done at https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/indicator-session/+bug/634003 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] SVG default wallpaper was: OMG!
On 05/09/10 06:07, Martin Owens wrote: Well you know how gullible I am for making things for free ;-), here you go your feature request has been granted: http://doctormo.org/2010/09/04/whoa-wheres-it-going/ That rocks very hard indeed! Can you send me some sample SVG's so I can get a feel for the rendering quality? Now, we need to figure out how to ship it in Natty :) Are there any bits needed which aren't already on the CD? Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] SVG default wallpaper was: OMG!
On 03/09/10 21:44, Diego Moya wrote: One word of warning - if this feature finally gets included in Ubuntu, please make sure that the orange highlights are always kept subtle and never run out of control. In Owens' demo the generated wallpaper looks great mainly because it contains very few and faded orange splashes. On the other hand, the original wallpaper that generated so much controversy contains no less than three big, highly saturated stains. http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2010/08/ubuntu-1010-default-wallpaper.html The new Ubuntu color palette takes an aggressive stance by combining purple and orange. While this combination can achieve a vibrating effects in the hands of a skilled designer, it's simply too risky to use in a random generator. So please put a constraint so that the orange highlights are always restricted to low saturations. +1 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] OMG!Ubuntu a bane or a boon? [was]Re: The new default wallpaper
Thanks Vish for reminding folks of the importance of respect when providing feedback. As Ubuntu grows, it's necessary for calm heads to constantly remind newer folks of the core values of the project, otherwise we'll lose the gravity that holds our galaxy together, so to speak. The Code of Conduct is important, so when you see people stepping out of it, please everyone help them cool down and we'll all be more effective as a community as a result of your taking the trouble to do so. That said, I think the feedback on the wallpaper is representative of real concerns about it. Otto, the lead visual designer for our desktop work in the Canonical design team, blogged about where he wants to go with it at http://design.canonical.com/2010/09/ubuntu-default-wallpaper/ where he also invites folks who are keen to help pursue the underlying idea. As a result of the feedback (even though some of it was, ahem, undiplomatic ;-)) we'll revamp the wallpaper (and yes, it's a failure on our part to have to do that post-UIF). To summarise the idea: we want to make the desktop have a unique style, but be personal to every different PC. In essence, the wallpaper for the Lucid-12.04 series is a symphony of light and light-related effects, and we want to make it so every day, each of those lights and effects moves just a little bit for each user, in a different direction. So, at release time, all the wallpapers look the same, but over the course of a month or so they all end up being different. For each release, we'd vary the elements a little, i.e. the number and relative strength of lights / flares / blurs. We didn't get to implement that this cycle. I thought we could do it with a Python-GIMP script that ran nightly. We need to use something like Gegl for high-quality effects. Alas, we then dropped the GIMP from the CD, so we'll need to figure a plan B :-) Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On 03/09/10 05:12, David Hamm wrote: It may have taken years to make the first Elvis Sandwich, but no one can deny its tastiness.* * * * If however we are trying to achieve an orgasm then, well, you guys are on your own. And back to the topic, please ;) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] SVG default wallpaper was: OMG!
Martin hit the nail on the head - the gap between what's on the CD, what works in practice, and the SVG standard, is rather wide. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Maverick Movies!
On 20/08/10 15:17, Christian Giordano wrote: Shouldn't we promote our style guides? Sure they probably don't include video editing/transitions etc, but the typography of some of those videos is just too inconsistent. Yes, we should. The wiki page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MaverickMovies says use the styling of 10.10 where you can: Ubuntu Font, colour palette, circle of friends... you get the drift. Please go ahead and update that with pointers to the actual guidelines! Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Maverick Movies!
On 20/08/10 17:55, Shane Fagan wrote: Well I think it would be fun to put some of the high quality ones on the front page of ubuntu.com http://ubuntu.com using HTM5 video embedding. We can do that for release if we get something stunning. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [ubuntu-marketing] Maverick Movies!
On 21/08/10 07:49, Lisandro Vaccaro wrote: We can also make a youtube site and gather all the videos and put the winner on the main page. I have been thinking on it for some time. We could also have something like the best video of the month and have it always on the main page and keep it going. Sure, sounds good. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Maverick Movies!
On 20/08/10 18:54, Jake Tolbert wrote: This is an interesting question that I'd like some perspective on (as a bit of an outsider to Canonical, but part of the FLOSS community): where does Canonical a/o Ubuntu's responsibility to maintain the Ubuntu brand end? As a marketer in a rather traditional market, I'm conditioned to think that I need to preserve my brand wherever possible, to make sure everything looks consistent in every medium. At the same time, it's foolish, and I think, counter to FLOSS ideology, to clamp down on this sort of 'fan art', to categorize it broadly. So how does a company deeply devoted to open source ideology interact with fan art? Canonical owns the brand / trademark, but we license it very freely to the Ubuntu community. Folks who want to set something up that claims to be Ubuntu, or representing Ubuntu, just send mail to tradema...@canonical.com and as long as the use falls within the trademark policy, it gets ack'd and approved. Your point is exactly right: Ubuntu is bigger than Canonical's contributions could ever make it, it's the sum of aspirations, hope, dreams and effort from a very large community, and that community needs to be able to express itself and speak for Ubuntu. In the design guidelines, we have a framework for styling that includes an axis from Canonical - Community. When designing materials, you ask the question am I speaking for a Canonical service or offering, or from a Canonical perspective, or from a community perspective, or somwehre in between. Then, based on the position on that axis, we provide guidance as to the balance of colour in the materials (in short, more Canonical == more aubergine, more Community == more orange). We're breaking quite a bit of new ground, I think, in formalising the voice of a broader community in the brand. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity's desktop
Joern, that looks really interesting! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Unity's desktop
On 08/08/10 20:49, Apoorva Sharma wrote: I like all these ideas, but why not do what KDE4 did, and present a desktop of files, a zeitgeist timeline, etc. as widgets, so you could have access to files and useful information? I do think a gadget story is interesting. There's no really compelling framework out there today, though. Google's implementations have a lot of rendering and usability problems, and the gadgets are not attractive. Yahoo's is closed source. The others are marginal. Am I missing a good candidate? Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Places People
On 12/08/10 07:52, Frederik Nnaji wrote: for the advantages the new Places will bring it might be an attractive undertaking, yet the primary place for contacts IMO should be the human memory, where the most valuable and important contacts are permanently being kept alive through human social interaction. More important than a Places Contacts is, according to this logic, an intelligent Contact Menu. Ayatana already has: * Messaging Menu * Networking Menu * Me Menu * Power Menu hopefully soon also Contact Menu. On the other hand, i'm moving away from the concept of Contacts as a Place: The Dash is a much better place for managing sets of data than a menu is. Menus should have a fairly constrained set of alternatives, to make them efficient to render and use. With the Dash, we have a much bigger space, that's visually richer. Let's stick with Contacts in the Dash. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Usability] The Future of Window Borders, Menu Bars, and More
On 19/08/10 10:48, Allan Caeg wrote: That could work for Unity (though I'm not very familiar with it), but we also have to think about other platforms. Got to think about something that will work upstream (GNOME). Ah, you touch on my sensitivities! From our perspective, Unity is upstream, it's design and lead implementation is completely independent of the Ubuntu team. It's also as much part of GNOME as something like Zeitgeist and lots of other projects that have started out in the wild and moved to the center over time. We would like Gnomers to think of it as a proud contribution from Canonical, and we're a little hurt when people suggest otherwise. So, tread softly when you tread on folks dreams, even if inadvertently ;-) Let's not forget other desktop environments too. It's Firefox on the Linux desktop that we're talking about so there's a lot more to it than its presence on Unity. Indeed, I would expect FF to inspect its environment and use the right tools as available, and we'd support making that easy for the Unity case. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] [Usability] The Future of Window Borders, Menu Bars, and More
On 19/08/10 12:54, Allan Caeg wrote: Oops! That's not what I meant, good sir! I just wanted to make sure that we're not forgetting other platforms. I love what you and the rest of the Ubuntu team do. We sometimes just have miscommunications because of semantics and stuff. Perhaps, what I should have said was, thanks for the support from the Unity side of things and we'll find ways to do the same for other environments. I apologize, Mark No apology needed, I didn't take offense, just letting you know how we feel about that area. Your sentiment is fully supported here - FF needs to be able to express this nicely on each fo the places it will be used. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Light Sound Theme
Hi Chris Thanks for the pointer to the sound theme, here are some comments: In general, I think we want something lighter, more ethereal. Quite a number of the instruments seemed to be full-bodied, more like piano's than harpsichords, if you know what I mean. The -connect-3 and -disconnect-3 sounds seemed very muted, stifled almost. Empty-Trash sounds magical, but not related to trash at all. I don't think we want anything harsh like a shredder, but we want something that sounds appropriate, like a match striking or paper crumpling or paper landing in a trash can. Error-1 was appropriately cautionary but still pleasant, while error-2 sounds like a prelude to a shower scene of the ketchup variety. Notification-2 was interesting, but seems to choke at the end. I liked the peaceful lift at the end of shutdown-1 and -4. shutdown-3 seemed sad, but -2 had a gentle slowing and nice lilt in the finish too. I think -4 takes the prize for me. All of the startup sounds strike me as being a little mournful. Hope that helps! Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On 03/08/10 20:25, Matt Wheeler wrote: In reality (as ScottK has already mentioned) only Firefox *needs* a restart after an update, everything else will just continue to run the slightly out of date version until you get around to restarting it. Boy, I wish we could tell Firefox to save state, restart, and restore everything exactly, that restart experience is really bad (the warning, the breakage if you don't do it, it's all poor, and if every app did that we'd be a mess!). Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Light Sound Theme
On 03/08/10 22:54, S. Christian Collins wrote: Thanks for the pointers, Mark! They will give me a much clearer idea of what you all are looking for in a sound theme. Well I'm just one opinion, there are others with better musical taste in the room I'm sure ;-) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Sound indicator position indicator and scope
On 04/08/10 02:44, Dylan McCall wrote: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/soundmenu.png That position indicator has stuff going on on both sides and the number of the left side is continually ticking. It contributes to that music player element looking big, bulky and disjointed. To me, that begs the question: how often do ordinary people do this? Is all the noise necessary, or is this the sort of once-a-month operation a person can be expected to open Rhythmbox to do? In my own circle of friends, it's a pretty unusual operation. Music is designed to be listened to in order, and historically that has been the only way of doing it. I think there's a case for dropping the scrub bar, yes. It's fiddly (and that looks more and more like a design issue, not an implementation issue, there's been lots of work on the implementation). Conor and MPT may want us to let the implementation mature another couple of rounds, because I know there's work ongoing, and there may be other use cases for the widget which will make us glad for having it, but we can review it closer to final release and decide if it stays. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ayatana] Space in the sound menu
I blogged about the layout of the track metadata in sound indicator at http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/446 With a mockup like: In comments on the post, Mike Rooney pointed me to a thread that included http://picasaweb.google.com/100804433705878937883/Mockups#5493946264489470306 It's certainly nice and clean. I think a combination might rock. I do think the play/pause/next/previous buttons have some work in the pipeline that will improve the styling. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Sound Menu and ellipsizing in the middle
On 31/07/10 10:38, Mohammed Amine IL Idrissi wrote: (Sorry if this has been asked before) Hello, Currently, the Sound Menu ellipses the track name in the middle. Why's that? Ellipsizing in the middle creates confusion: for example, Casiokids - Min Siste Dag becomes Casioki...ste Dag, which is not very understandable. Why not ellipsizing in the end instead? There are often sets of things that start the same way. For example, Air on a C String Movement 1 Air on a C String Movement 2 Air on a C String Movement 3 Air on a C String Movement 4 If your ellipsis are in the middle, you more often capture the essential bits. Even better, if you *know* the set of things, you can choose ellipsis smartly so that you always capture the differentiating bits. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On 30/07/10 16:44, Luke Benstead wrote: The red indicator has been a bug bear of mine for a while, red is far to severe a colour for something that isn't an error condition. I'd again suggest blue for information, or at most an amber to indicate a warning (I guess it's possible a kernel update had a security fix). The strong likelihood is that you are insecure until you reboot, so we class it as a warning and make it red. Also, Restart required isn't an action, and it's not required. Restart (recommended) might make more sense, brackets differentiating the action from the recommendation. Agreed, the language is bad. The current plan is to change it to Restart, completing updates... which is more accurate. Still open to a better choice of words if you have something in mind. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On 30/07/10 19:24, Vishnoo wrote: How about : Restart To Apply Updates... or Restart and Apply Updates... Could do, yes. By then the updates have been installed, so I was looking for language which indicated that the update process wasn't complete. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On 30/07/10 20:01, Martin Owens wrote: On Fri, 2010-07-30 at 19:31 +0100, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: Could do, yes. By then the updates have been installed, so I was looking for language which indicated that the update process wasn't complete. Could the level of warning not be directly related to the severity of the security problems in the update? I don't think we know - it's either reboot required or not. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On 30/07/10 20:01, Martin Owens wrote: Could the level of warning not be directly related to the severity of the security problems in the update? Also... we don't want to get too anorack about this. In theory, we could use blue for informational updates, orange for low priority updates and red for critical security. But that's more likely to confuse people than help them. So for the moment we'll pick one colour and stick to it. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Restart Required
On 30/07/10 20:57, Vishnoo wrote: Right , just wanted to mention that we dont need to use punctuations or brackets in menus: Restart To Complete Update... [ or s/complete/finish or any synonym ] Yes, that would fit nicely :-) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] SoundMenu and hovering
David, I see only one state in the .gif, the rest seem blank. T-bird 3.1.1. Mark ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] CSD and the pressure to innovate
On 08/07/10 00:10, Sam Spilsbury wrote: Why exactly do we want the WM to be handling tabs here? Trying to do tabbed applications within the window manager for the sake of having tabs is a huge waste of memory, especially when the application itself can already do tabs. ... the result is a whole bunch of major inconsistencies in the user experience of tabs. Where is the close button? What are the key bindings to move between tabs, and to move tabs around? How does one move a tab between two windows of the same app? The typical path for something like tabs is that they are invested somewhere, then implemented individually in a bunch of apps, then become part of the system. We need to make that last step happen. It also does not make sense from a design perspective. the whole point of tabbed windows (as it is implemented in both Compiz and KWin) is to allow multiple /applications/ to be shoved into one window, applications which the user delegates themselves as related. Confusing documents and windows here doesn't help at all. You're right at the start: tabs are multiple applications in one window. They are whole things that you want to navigate between with keystrokes, see previews of, etc. They are systemic objects, and they deserve to be treated as such. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 30/06/10 14:15, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: I agree that the F-Spot example isn't status; I couldn't think of anything appropriate for that. :-) Does F-Spot not have an online / offline mode yet? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Some thoughts about unclutter
I would add that my first annoyance with this behavior is that I often use the mouse pointer to point out something in a screenshot. Now I must stay physically active to do so rather than just setting the screenshot delay time properly, positioning the pointer, and waiting. That's easy to fix in the screenshot app, which I think will see some design love in the next cycle. As a sketch: - don't ask any questions up front if invoked via printscreen - only ask for the delay, if invoked via a menu - take a screenshot of the entire desktop (or multiple desktops / workspaces if possible) - also, record positions of the windows and pointer - THEN - establish if the user wants the whole desktop or a specific window, - ask if the window borders are required, - allow for direct cropping of the image - ask if the pointer is required, and add it if needed - ask for any decorations like shadows etc This way, you get to choose whether you want the pointer. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ayatana] Me menu broadcast message feedback
Hi MPT If you're in the thick of things and don't have a chance to respond that's fine, please just copy this into the Me-Menu-Nifty spec as a placeholder for later discussion. == Broadcast Message Feedback == In order to provide feedback on the success or failure of broadcast messages and status updates sent from the Me Menu, we will use the following patterns: 1. Preserving Menu Interaction Menus have several key attributes: selecting or activating a menu item dismisses the menu, and a dismissed menu releases focus and disappears, clearing screen space. = So, we'll preserve the experience that putting a broadcast message in the me menu and pressing enter closes the menu immediately and completely. 2. A throbber for work-in-progress We often use a throbber or spinny to indicate that work is in progress in the background. The spinny is most effective if it is tightly associated with the item that is doing the work, or the place where the work is being done. In some cases, a generic throbber / spinny is used, in other cases like the wifi-connection we use a custom animation of the relevant state indicator. From hard experience, we've learned that the engineering of the spinny needs to be very performance-aware, otherwise it can create an unnecessary drain on CPU and battery. = So, we'll create a throbber / spinny animation for the Me Menu that will be active while the broadcast message is being sent. 3. A green flash for success In Launchpad and other web properties, we use a green flash to indicate the success of a transaction that does not create a long term change in state (where we'd use a persistent blue or green colour). It's desireable to have common patterns between web and desktop properties. We already use this approach in the desktop in the messaging menu, when we indicate that someone has come online (a notification tells you who). = So, when the message is sent successfully, the Me Menu will flash green. The flash will use standard timing and effects (harmonised with the messaging menu and other indicators which adopt the pattern). 4. Persistent red (or orange) for a warning or significant failure When we wish to signal a warning, we use orange or red depending on the criticality. We may use it in a persistent fashion or as a temporary indicator. For example, when you are disconnected from the wifi network, a red highlight appears on the wifi indicator. Also, when a security update has been installed but requires a restart to be effective, we introduce a red effect on the session menu (on/off) indicator. We also have a pattern of signalling which element of the menu is associated with the warning - for example, the fact that the Restart menu item will be coloured red and changed in text when a restart is required from 10.10 onwards. = So, when a broadcast message fails, we will use an orange or red visual touch to indicate that. We need to debate and decide whether it should be a transient indication (a flash) or a persistent state indication (a red/orange element on the icon, or a red/orange effect around the icon). We also need to decide whether it is a warning (orange) or a failure (red), and if it is persistent, how to signal which element of the menu is associated to it. For example, we might choose to put a persistent orange glow on the Me Menu when the last broadcast failed, and to outline the text field in that menu in orange - distinct from the theme's focus colour - as well. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] CSD and the pressure to innovate
On 06/07/10 02:02, Frederik Nnaji wrote: I thought it didn't depend on window decoration anymore!? Doesn't Global Menu read its items idenpendently already? Our Global Menu requires the application to publish it's menu using a protocol we have designed and implemented, over d-bus. For Gtk and Qt, the aim is to make that automatic (i.e. the app doesn't have to do anything special unless it really wants to). The issue for Firefox is that it will need to implement this for itself, it doesn't use Qt or Gtk. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] mail indicator not consistency
On 06/07/10 08:49, Philipp Wendler wrote: Hi, Am 06.07.2010 08:41, schrieb Mark Shuttleworth: Interesting questions. My gut feel would be: - incoming IM notifications would be suppressed - incoming calls would be displayed Why the latter? When I put my cellphone in DND (or silence) mode, nothing is signaled: no calls, no SMS, no VoIP calls, no IM. I think a PC should behave similarly. Does your phone vibrate? Does the screen show the incoming call? I suspect that your phone only suppresses the ring tone, and not visual / physical cues of an incoming call. For that, there's airplane mode and off. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] CSD and the pressure to innovate
On 07/07/10 09:29, Diego Moya wrote: On 7 July 2010 07:32, Philipp Wendler wrote: How would you handle the advanced application-specific features related to tabs? In Firefox for example, there are quite a few actions when you right-click on the tab bar: - reload tab - make tab into a bookmark - undo tab closing Creating a standard protocol for tabs that allows collaboration between application and the WM. Exactly! We already do this in a couple of places, where an app can use an existing framework then extend it with additional options. For example, in the Music Menu, an app can add menu items related to the current-playing-track, or the app as a whole. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] mail indicator not consistency
On 06/07/10 02:09, Frederik Nnaji wrote: Or will it have effect for social communication also? How about incoming voice and video calls? Do Not Disturb should be a system-exlusive mode? Interesting questions. My gut feel would be: - incoming IM notifications would be suppressed - incoming calls would be displayed but I'm not sure I can rationalise the difference. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] CSD and the pressure to innovate
On 04/07/10 11:54, Sense Hofstede wrote: The mock-ups for Firefox 4 seem also to be using CSD. That's the only way I can think of to get that menu up there in the title bar. https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/4.0_Linux_Theme_Mockups Indeed. Again, if we have a consistent solution for the things they are trying to address, we can reasonably expect them to adopt it if they want to be a default option on Ubuntu. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] CSD and the pressure to innovate
On 04/07/10 19:29, David Hamm wrote: In 10.10, we'll take a big step forward in the netbook edition, by moving the menu into the top panel and combining it with the titlebar for maximised windows. This will be very nice! Thanks Dev's. Defiantly going on my laptop, even tho its 12, tabs will finally hit the edge of the screen. Assuming I read that right. In 11.04 that's feasible, yes. Not in 10.10. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ayatana] CSD and the pressure to innovate
On 29/06/10 07:19, Conscious User wrote: I think that makes two of two implementations that nicely illustrate the concern that CSD is harmful for workspace consistency. I have to agree on this one. Visual inconsistency is one of the oldest complaints against Songbird. I think there's a difference between cases where the application takes all matter into its own hands, and cases where the application implements CSD inside a desktop-wide framework. As you can see, ignoring CSD isn't stopping popular apps from embracing elements of it - inconsistently. My view is that making CSD systemic isn't going to worsen the situation, and likely makes it substantially better. Songbird and Chrome are innovating because the desktop environments are not. In part, the desktop environments are not innovating because (a) Windows and MacOS are too entrenched, and (b) Linux folks can't agree on a direction, and views are vociferous across the spectrum. The direction we have taken with Unity and the netbook interface will, I hope, address some of the issues that have driven the unilateral movement by Songbird, Chrome and others. In other words, by making the window system / desktop environment layout more efficient in the way those app developers care about, we reduce the pressure for them to do things that are radically different, and hence inconsistent. What do they care about? Efficiency. Both Chrome and Songbird have tried to eliminate wasted vertical space, in different ways. Songbird by putting the menu in the window title bar, Chrome, by moving the menu to a much less vertically intrusive form factor. Chrome has gone further, putting tabs into the titlebar area too. In 10.10, we'll take a big step forward in the netbook edition, by moving the menu into the top panel and combining it with the titlebar for maximised windows. The next challenge will be for us to be smarter about tabs, so I think we'll do a bunch of exploration work for 11.04 in that regard. If we can *nail* those things, we'll have the most efficient use of vertical space, and can reasonably expect Chrome and Songbird to embrace it. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Broadcasting from Me Menu: thoughts after some time using it
On 28/06/10 21:40, Apoorva Sharma wrote: I really like the idea of having some sort of notification on a successful broadcast from the memenu. However, I think that too much color could be a problem. Thus, I propose the following: * After the user stops writing the message, a spinner fades in at the right end of the textbox. * If the message is successfully sent, the spinner fades out, a check fades in, and after a while, the check fades out. * If the message fails to be sent, then a red cross fades in in place of the spinner, and doesn't fade out until the message is sent. * If it fails at first, but then works, the red x fades out, and the check fades in. I think that this system would provide a minimalistic notification of the broadcast, fitting in with the minimalistic style of the panel. However, we want to preserve as many of the benefits of menu operation as possible. When you click on a menu item, or hit enter, *the menu disappears*. That makes them very lean to work with, because you don't have to act-then-dismiss, as you do with dialogs. In the tweet-from-me-menu case, we want to preserve that lightweight feeling. So, clicking on the me menu, typing your message, and pressing enter should *dismiss* the menu. But then we still want to provide some feedback on the success or failure of the tweet. Hence the desire for a spinny overlaid, followed by a green flash if it went well, and a persistent red hint if it did not. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Lack of harmony between panel applets
On 28/06/10 03:34, Tyler Brainerd wrote: On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Allan Caeg allanc...@gmail.com mailto:allanc...@gmail.com wrote: Will indicator-network feel integrated with Indicator Applet and Indicator Session? If indicator-network is right beside Indicator Applet, will it follow that mouse hover menu activation will jump between the two panel applets? As for the clock applet, does anyone here know if it will work the same way as indicator-network? That is the design intent, yes. If you are running only Ayatana indicators, then yes you will be able to have a menu only experience end-to-end. For 10.10 that will mean using connection manager, which will still have rough edges, and the clock indicator, which is relatively simplistic. But it will still feel tighter and more unified than a hodge-podge of panel applets, so that's how I'll be using it :-) Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Lack of harmony between panel applets
On 28/06/10 08:33, Martin Owens wrote: Although I hear it'll unravel all the functionality for the evolution calendar and task list as well as the handy locations and ability to change locations from that menu. In due course, similar capabilities will be added. But for the moment it's minimalist. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Design discussion proposals for Christmas
On 31/12/09 17:20, Conscious User wrote: But *can* the current specification fix this for closed-source apps like Skype? The reason I ask (and forgive me if I'm wrong) is that Application Indicators seem to solve the problem of notification area consistency but not the problem of notification area abuse. Even if Skype were to follow the libappindicator API to the letter, it could still *force* an indicator icon to appear, and this is something that displeases a lot of users. In the case of Skype, there is now a library that we can use to integrate it into the desktop more effectively. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Lack of harmony between panel applets
On 28/06/10 08:53, Conscious User wrote: In due course, similar capabilities will be added. But for the moment it's minimalist. Here's me hoping that those similar capabilities will be implemented in a neat d-bus service way which follows an app-independent protocol, thus closing one of the most common complaints against the current clock, which is being too tied to Evolution. Agreed! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Lack of harmony between panel applets
On 25/06/10 08:49, Tyler Brainerd wrote: From what I understand, a lot of these changes (for instance, the new network manager) are and will continue to show up in the Unity interface, before eventually making their way over to Desktop. You'll be able to use our replacement for Network Manager on the desktop too, it just won't be the default in 10.10. But if you drop NM manually in favour of indicator-network, you'll have a fully cleaned-up panel (depending of course on what else you have which still uses systray, but we're close enough to done-1.0 that it should be reasonable to run with only indicators in 10.10 desktop). Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Me Menu - Review
On 24/06/10 13:08, James Putt wrote: So we need to think carefully about whether being offline is an alert condition or not. I don't really think it is. Neither do I :) I think an error-based-offline is an alert condition. In other words, if you set yourself to be Available, and the network disconnects or the server kicks you off, THEN it might be worth putting a red glow or other highlight / feature to draw attention to being offline. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Two suggested designs for the Sound Indicator
On 21/06/10 15:04, Frederik Nnaji wrote: What GlobalMenu does, is to detect what the user is currently looking at, then afford the respective controls for its manipulation. The Sound Menu can also behave like this: * Probe for focused media apps * assign the most accessible volume fader to the currently focused media app's output signal * volume manipulation without media app window focused affects global volume. It's an interesting idea. But remember, the inverse use case is just as urgent when you need it, and you need it often. By inverse I meant that you suddenly want to control the volume of the thing you are NOT looking at. For example, you get a skype call, skype is focused, and you now want to lower the volume on the youtube video that was playing when the call came in. Or you have music playing, and someone sends you a youtube link, and you want to lower the volume of the song playing on in the background.ADD METERS! Digital audio hardware often uses so called LED Meterbridges for this kind of purpose.. That's what we need first, IMO: sound, visually represented. Yes, we could do this, with a custom slider, and it's not a bad idea for 2.0. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Me Menu - Review
On 21/06/10 10:42, James Putt wrote: I agree colour is significant. I was considering that the top menu by convention is monochromatic with certain colours having a particular meaning, and how having different icons in the drop down menu to the icons representing the menu would play out. In order to avoid the panel going gaudy, and to *keep* colour significant, we should only use colour for off-nominal and exceptional situations. So we need to think carefully about whether being offline is an alert condition or not. I don't really think it is. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 18/06/10 19:42, Sam Spilsbury wrote: Do you need to interact with them during alt-tab? Remember that your screen is grabbed and you are busy finding windows, not tweaking them. I think, if we're going to expose them, we should enable them to be interactive in order to keep them faithful to the original and consistent. In that case, I'd say scale them down accordingly. Not only will this fit in better more visually, but it also makes a heck of a lot of sense when we get input redirection and can interact with those tiny widgets anyways* They'd be tiny, and not very easy to interact with scaled down. It's a neat idea, but I think violating the scaling is actually useful in this case. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] mail indicator not consistency
On 18/06/10 13:18, Frederik Nnaji wrote: On 2010-06-18, Vishnoo v...@ubuntu.com wrote: On Wed, 2010-03-31 at 23:34 +0100, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: On 31/03/10 18:51, Jim Rorie wrote: From a bigger picture frame of reference, I was mulling a global do no disturb state. This would turn off desktop notifications and other intrusions. Do-Not-Disturb should *definitely* be in the spec for 10.10. Please do review them post-UDS and raise a flag if it's not there. Mark I'v tried to find a blueprint which schedules the D-n-D for maverick. But there isnt any. Seems like it is not in the spec for 10.10. So... reminding ;) -- Cheers, thx vish for digging this up, exactly what i asked for.. it stands in direct relation to the HCI subsystem thingy i was trying to propose in the unclutter thread. Do-not-disturb did come up in our latest review of thinking for 11.04 design work, so please ask MPT for a pointer to the (placeholder) spec where it should emerge. I would guess it would be a me-menu-2.0 type spec name. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Windicators
On 18/06/10 15:00, Sam Spilsbury wrote: Yes, perhaps show them at 1:1 scale as emblems on the window previews, whatever the underlying window scale is for the reveal / alt-tab. Mark I would imagine with 24x24 icons you're going to have enough room for about 4 of them on each window thumbnail before they start running off and things get ugly fast. Even with 18x18, I'd say 5 is pushing it. I guess you could increase the size of the window thumbnail, but I don't see how that would fix much. What happens if applications have more than 4 or 5 indicators? We'll have to think about that :-) Suggestions? Show the ones that most recently changed status? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Redesigning the Ubuntu mouse cursor for simple notification of app attention
Platform team is reviewing unclutter for inclusion in the default install and session. MPT, you might want to provide guidance on the upgrade experience - this should be added to sessions after update. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Application Menu bug consolidation and plans
On 14/06/10 18:59, nickwinl...@comcast.net wrote: My message is to the passive group or those who lurk.. Please note that ``duped'' isn't a word. That is what you all should work on fixing technologically and socially in the future, and not creating new branches or nodes from the same tree when the equilibrium of GTK Apps is pretty smooth, now. True versioning is ordering the submitted code by date, class and then a particular quality/component. Roman numeral I., roman numeral II., and so forth. I would focus on sorting project material by mercurial/hg command-line, and also using something Web-based. There are some here who may think that creating that ayatana-dev list is a diversion. I think GTK Apps work is basic stuff and not too cyclical now, and if order is any new delineation occurring, people would be working on their versioned code on the side not without GTK Apps. -Nick What? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Farewell to the notification area
On 15/06/10 10:35, Luke Benstead wrote: I thought about that, but AFAIK you can't have right clicking (perhaps also double clicking) inside an indicator menu. We could do a special-case for this. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Redesigning the Ubuntu mouse cursor for simple notification of app attention
On 14/06/10 08:55, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: Frederik Nnaji wrote on 05/05/10 16:14: On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 02:24, Alex Launi alex.la...@gmail.com mailto:alex.la...@gmail.com wrote: I usually move my cursor completely out of view when I'm not using it. I've definitely seen my roommate, brother, and mom all do the same. that's a problem. how about removing the mouse cursor altogether while typing? ... That's one of the first bugs I ever reported on Ubuntu -- still unfixed, five years later. http://launchpad.net/bugs/16492 Is there not an existing patch for this? If you can track it down, I'll review and potentially BDFL it. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] How do I know when I'm connected to the network successfully?
Just so folks are clear on direction: - we would like to move to Connection Manager (connman) in due course, for its cleaner, more pluggable, testable and maintainable architecture - we have a detailed, signed-off design for the indicator associated with that at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Networking - MPT is working on supporting designs, such as settings - implementation has started on the indicator and code contributions are welcome - we aim to use this for 10.10 Netbook Edition (not desktop) unless it fails badly - you can test this today using the indicator-network-developers PPA and wiki.ubuntu.com/ConnMan iirc In general, it would be best to focus Ayatana design conversations around that work, or talk about its engineering on ayatana-dev. Network Manager can use love too, but best to direct that to the list for that project. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: Open Letter: The issues with client-side-window-decorations
On 09/06/10 19:23, Conscious User wrote: Now, I'd feel a lot more confortable if someone steps in and says a hung window can still be easily closed when using CSD because of technical reasons X, Y and Z. A hung window can still be easily closed when using CSD because the position of the close button will be known to the window manager and clicks there handled appropriately even if the client fails to process them.Likewise, suppose we want a sparkle effect or suppose we want to draw a circle or suppose we want to do this thing that kwin already does without CSD does not exactly inspire confidence enough to convince anyone that CSD is worthy of all the problems Martin brought up. One use case. *ONE*. A single one. Solid, reasonable and non-speculative. It is all he is asking for. And as a particularly vocal protester against the window buttons change, I'm interested on it as well. We want themes straightforwardly to define the look of the entire window, and not have to negotiate that with the window manager. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: Open Letter: The issues with client-side-window-decorations
On 09/06/10 18:02, Martin Gräßlin wrote: Please tell me you are joking. After all the arguments I presented you still think CSD is the road to go? You completely ignore my arguments, you actually have not even read my arguments or you would know that some things like closing hung windows or aligning window buttons are impossible. All I wanted was to start a discussion about what is missing in decorations. It's not me who wants to keep window decorations, it's you who want to replace something working with a broken concept. And you should at least be able to present one valid use case what can only be achieved with CSD. So far you only proofed that you have no idea what's possible with window decorations. This mail is quite a slap into my face and an insult. I really hope this is not the attitude Ubuntu stands for today. I thought it was about humanity. I wanted to offer my help. I saw that you are heading in the wrong direction based on the missinformation that you cannot achieve certain theming options with window decorations. As I presented several times in this thread all you want is possible right now in kwin. Apparently you did not even take the time to look through the mails on the wm-spec mailing list or my blog posts of the last half year. I'm totally shocked. I hope for the future of Ubuntu that you will learn that you cannot ignore your Upstreams. And you can be sure that I won't spent one minute on fixing any issue caused by CSD in kwin. Bug reports will be set to invalid and I will enforce window decorations on CSD windows, if it is necessary. It would be unacceptable that windows cannot be closed if they hung. I wish you all the best, but I feel like wasting my time in this discussion. Go your way, destroy the user experience we used to have. Martin, calm down. Based on your correspondence I earlier asked the Canonical team to review the idea and make sure it's something we want to do. Folks are keen to do the right thing, and nobody wants to take a step that we will regret later if it can be avoided by careful assessment now. It will take a little time to caucus folks across the Ubuntu and design and DX teams, and then we'll make a decision. I appreciate the effort you have put into helping us with that, and we'll probably have more questions later. Assuming that people are muppets just because they have a different opinion is just... rude. Your mail above says I will be very hard to collaborate with, nothing more or less. You might want to relax a little. I don't think that the relationship between the window manager and the user is sacrosanct. It's what we have today, but it's not the only way of doing things. I know that's heresy when spoken to an author of window managers, but that's how I feel about it. My interest is in moving things towards the best possible user experience, period. And if CSD is needed for that, we'll do it. If it isn't, we don't want to put work into something just because it's shiny. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Putting some brakes on the enthusiasm
On 10/06/10 04:20, Sam Spilsbury wrote: That is a bad idea. You cannot just say we're going to use [insert technology X], but that does not matter since what we care about is design without ignoring the many upstreams who will ultimately be incredibly upset by that technical change for the sake of design. I really don't want to say it, but I seriously considered ceasing all development of a core ubuntu technology (compiz) today after what happened yesterday on the mailing lists. I don't ever want to work in a situation where other people are making my life harder. Canonical and ubuntu need to realize that the very upstreams they depend on do work out of the generosity of their heart and have a sound knowledge of how things work. Using a large desktop share and the sake of design to ignore technical issues is a surefire way to create walls between you and your upstreams. This is a really important issue, and one I thought about a lot before putting the wheels in motion to build the design ethos and team at Canonical, of which Ayatana is the visible piece to the free software desktop community. Sam, I think you're absolutely right that it's important to remember that Ubuntu is the sum of the contributions of engineers (software developers) who build what they build out of a love of building it. Their expertise, distilled, is what makes Ubuntu. But I think it's also important to remember who we (Ubuntu) are building it FOR. And it's not for ourselves. Really it's not. We're building it for end-users. And the best people to represent what those end-users will want, and use, and appreciate, are people who are devoted to that specific goal. Which is what this list is all about. Now, we all like to tell other people what they SHOULD like. And so there's a little bit of a designer in everyone, we'd like other people to want the same things we want. We'd like them to care about FOSS, we'd like them to be able to do more powerful things (more importantly, to WANT to). Because that would make them more like us. But actually, if you look at the spirit of Ubuntu, it should be more about what really works for them! So the way I see design is that it's about teasing out what our end-users really want to get done, and shaping things to make that possible for them. We have someone on the team who spends all day sitting with users just to observe what they try to do and how they try to do it! Now, I also agree that the mission cannot become completely divorced from technical reality. But my experience is that there are lots of volunteers, lots of people who participate in FOSS for all the reasons you describe, who are TOTALLY INSPIRED at the idea that they might have their efforts value massively amplified by trying to achieve the things that end-users will actually be delighted at. There are of course others who are more motivated by personal challenges that they set for themselves, and frankly Ubuntu needs ALL kinds of contributions. But THIS list is all about trying to set the highest possible goals for the experience that end-users want, to set a challenge which SOME developers might want to rise to. So, I'm not telling you that you're wrong. Far from it. I'm just asking that you recognise that there IS value in having a conversation that is purely grounded in what will work best for users and not restricted by what we have right now. Of course, knowing where we are starting from helps to identify the places we can have the biggest immediate impact, which is very useful. But it should not hold us back. Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
