Re: [Ayatana] Fitts Law
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 GonzO Rodrigue wrote on 23/04/11 18:43: On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 5:25 AM, Mitja Pagon mitja.pa...@inueni.com ... http://design.canonical.com/2011/04/unity-benchmark-usability-april-2011/ Is this the testing you were referring to? If so, how come there is no mention of the issues you raised above? I believe that's a different set of tests, there. If you want to see the restults of Charlie's test, look here: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2011-April/032988.html ... It is the same test. Charline's post is largely about comparing Unity in Natty with Unity in Maverick, whereas my message was mainly about summarizing task completion in Natty. However, Charline does mention the menu issue briefly in her post: When participants had many windows opened, they did not understand that the bar corresponded to the selected window. And one of the quotes she includes is from one of the people who concluded that menus were available only for maximized windows: I didn’t like when I have things minimised. There are many things I can’t do without maximising the screen. (Both Charline and the test participants often used the word minimised to refer to unmaximized windows.) - -- mpt -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk223ToACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecro5ACgyZYyPOsUdP9ORIP+KnvjdLdm Q5IAoLz177g+3jm56xDPggq7B3Skvleo =3QFL -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Fitts Law
- Matthew Paul Thomas m...@canonical.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- It does. In the videos I watched of Charline Poirier's user test two weeks ago, of the eight out of ten people who could find the hidden menus at all, seven of them discovered the menus while mousing over the close/minimize/unmaximize buttons in a maximized window. They then concluded that the way to access menus was to hover over the close/minimize/unmaximize buttons, and then move sideways. This was very slow, and didn't work at all in unmaximized windows. People were much faster at using LibreOffice's menus, which are not yet integrated into the global menu bar by default. http://design.canonical.com/2011/04/unity-benchmark-usability-april-2011/ Is this the testing you were referring to? If so, how come there is no mention of the issues you raised above? Cheers, Mitja ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Fitts Law
- Luke Benstead kaz...@gmail.com wrote: These questions really need answering, Luke. I somewhat doubt we will get any response, it's looking more and more like the time when window controls were switched to the left, after a while the opposition just gave up and later on Mr. Shuttleworth declared how he was right to do the switch as no one is raising the issue any more. It looks like their modus operandi, ignore the counter arguments long enough that the proponents give up and then declare yourself the winner. And just for the sake of clarification, I don't now and didn't then, care much about whether window controls are on the left or the right, just pointing out a similar pattern. Cheers, Mitja ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Fitts Law
On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 20:35, Toby Smithe tsmi...@ubuntu.com wrote: This just seems to be, in the most part, a vacuum outlet for community discontent, rather than a place for constructive discussion. every public mailing list behaves like that, when under heavy load. some break, some recover afterwards.. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Fitts Law
On 19 April 2011 18:24, Mitja Pagon mitja.pa...@inueni.com wrote: - Matthew Paul Thomas m...@canonical.com wrote: It does. In the videos I watched of Charline Poirier's user test two weeks ago, of the eight out of ten people who could find the hidden menus at all, seven of them discovered the menus while mousing over the close/minimize/unmaximize buttons in a maximized window. They then concluded that the way to access menus was to hover over the close/minimize/unmaximize buttons, and then move sideways. This was very slow, and didn't work at all in unmaximized windows. People were much faster at using LibreOffice's menus, which are not yet integrated into the global menu bar by default. The question remains. Why, despite being a definite usability regression, is the menu still hidden? Who makes this decisions and why can't they accept the fact they are wrong in this case? Cheers, Mitja These questions really need answering, You don't need to be a usability expert to see there are very real problems with the panel/menu implementation in Natty. The frustrating thing is that we could revert either the merging of the titlebar OR the global menu (keeeping merging for maximized windows) and come out with something reasonably sane. If even MPT thinks things are broken then why are we continuing with the current mess? You think Apple or Microsoft would ship with something as ill thought out as the current panel design? I thought we were supposed to be bettering OSX? All I'm seeing in the panel is OSX plagiarism mixed in with our own essence of usability WTF. Luke. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Fitts Law
2011/4/20 Luke Benstead kaz...@gmail.com: If even MPT thinks things are broken then why are we continuing with the current mess? You think Apple or Microsoft would ship with something as ill thought out as the current panel design? I hate to point this out, but the ratio of Canonical:community e-mail addresses on this list seems heavily weighted on the side of the community. This means that there is an awful lot of noise and discussion, and - as far as I can tell - little to no direction, input or explanation from the People Who Make The Decisions. I do hope communication will improve. This just seems to be, in the most part, a vacuum outlet for community discontent, rather than a place for constructive discussion. I've also noticed this in bug reports relating to design decisions made by Canonical, or in Ayatana projects. -- Toby Smithe ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Fitts Law
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Kevin Liao wrote on 12/04/11 14:48: Hi all, I've been wondering, the Global Menu debate has been very furious for a while now. Proponents argue that Fitts Law is efficient. However, Unity's implementation of the Global Menu is that it becomes a menu when it is hovered over. Doesn't this mean that Fitts Law is rendered invalid because the user is in a sense blind until the mouse hovers over the menu? ... It does. In the videos I watched of Charline Poirier's user test two weeks ago, of the eight out of ten people who could find the hidden menus at all, seven of them discovered the menus while mousing over the close/minimize/unmaximize buttons in a maximized window. They then concluded that the way to access menus was to hover over the close/minimize/unmaximize buttons, and then move sideways. This was very slow, and didn't work at all in unmaximized windows. People were much faster at using LibreOffice's menus, which are not yet integrated into the global menu bar by default. - -- mpt -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk2tfaYACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecrSbQCeL6RbZA+rHj7NMEhaPmJJT6If H9gAnj3fTRXOwqwC3tA8rWI/1WXMsmtW =4Qj1 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Fitts Law
- Matthew Paul Thomas m...@canonical.com wrote: It does. In the videos I watched of Charline Poirier's user test two weeks ago, of the eight out of ten people who could find the hidden menus at all, seven of them discovered the menus while mousing over the close/minimize/unmaximize buttons in a maximized window. They then concluded that the way to access menus was to hover over the close/minimize/unmaximize buttons, and then move sideways. This was very slow, and didn't work at all in unmaximized windows. People were much faster at using LibreOffice's menus, which are not yet integrated into the global menu bar by default. The question remains. Why, despite being a definite usability regression, is the menu still hidden? Who makes this decisions and why can't they accept the fact they are wrong in this case? Cheers, Mitja ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Fitts Law
Why does the global menu hide at all? Hiding it doesn't save a lot of space, and it an can quite annoying. -New users may have issues finding it -A user may forgot an action like Edit - Copy if the Edit menu isn't a visual reminder -I frequently make an L-shape as I hit the top of the screen, then move the mouse to the menu i was looking for On Tue, 2011-04-19 at 13:18 +0100, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Kevin Liao wrote on 12/04/11 14:48: Hi all, I've been wondering, the Global Menu debate has been very furious for a while now. Proponents argue that Fitts Law is efficient. However, Unity's implementation of the Global Menu is that it becomes a menu when it is hovered over. Doesn't this mean that Fitts Law is rendered invalid because the user is in a sense blind until the mouse hovers over the menu? ... It does. In the videos I watched of Charline Poirier's user test two weeks ago, of the eight out of ten people who could find the hidden menus at all, seven of them discovered the menus while mousing over the close/minimize/unmaximize buttons in a maximized window. They then concluded that the way to access menus was to hover over the close/minimize/unmaximize buttons, and then move sideways. This was very slow, and didn't work at all in unmaximized windows. People were much faster at using LibreOffice's menus, which are not yet integrated into the global menu bar by default. - -- mpt -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk2tfaYACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecrSbQCeL6RbZA+rHj7NMEhaPmJJT6If H9gAnj3fTRXOwqwC3tA8rWI/1WXMsmtW =4Qj1 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Fitts Law
+1 on this... the menu should never be hidden. It's very difficult and unintuitive to hide it. The window title should just push it over... even the geniuses designing OS X do it like that. On Tue, Apr 19, 2011 at 1:26 PM, Alexander Lancey a...@alexandos.orgwrote: Why does the global menu hide at all? Hiding it doesn't save a lot of space, and it an can quite annoying. -New users may have issues finding it -A user may forgot an action like Edit - Copy if the Edit menu isn't a visual reminder -I frequently make an L-shape as I hit the top of the screen, *then* move the mouse to the menu i was looking for On Tue, 2011-04-19 at 13:18 +0100, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Kevin Liao wrote on 12/04/11 14:48: Hi all, I've been wondering, the Global Menu debate has been very furious for a while now. Proponents argue that Fitts Law is efficient. However, Unity's implementation of the Global Menu is that it becomes a menu when it is hovered over. Doesn't this mean that Fitts Law is rendered invalid because the user is in a sense blind until the mouse hovers over the menu? ... It does. In the videos I watched of Charline Poirier's user test two weeks ago, of the eight out of ten people who could find the hidden menus at all, seven of them discovered the menus while mousing over the close/minimize/unmaximize buttons in a maximized window. They then concluded that the way to access menus was to hover over the close/minimize/unmaximize buttons, and then move sideways. This was very slow, and didn't work at all in unmaximized windows. People were much faster at using LibreOffice's menus, which are not yet integrated into the global menu bar by default. - -- mpt -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk2tfaYACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecrSbQCeL6RbZA+rHj7NMEhaPmJJT6If H9gAnj3fTRXOwqwC3tA8rWI/1WXMsmtW =4Qj1 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Fitts Law
On 19 April 2011 19:26, Carl Simpson cwd.simp...@gmail.com wrote: As far as I am aware, from memory, this was not done so that the application's menus always start in the same place, thereby being consistent, thereby making it quicker to find stuff. With the ironic outcome that where with the Mac style we had to check the location of a given item before went off for the menu, with the “improved” Unity style, we have no idea where the menu is at all or what items are in it in the first place. For Firefox Chromium in particular, there is not enough room for the appmenu and the app title, which in this case also includes the page title, assuming you're a power user with more than 7 tabs or so. Jeremy Bicha ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ayatana] Fitts Law
Hi all, I've been wondering, the Global Menu debate has been very furious for a while now. Proponents argue that Fitts Law is efficient. However, Unity's implementation of the Global Menu is that it becomes a menu when it is hovered over. Doesn't this mean that Fitts Law is rendered invalid because the user is in a sense blind until the mouse hovers over the menu? Wouldn't it make more sense to have the menu activated by default so the user knows where to aim, rather than aim at the top, then move the mouse to where he/she wants to go? Apart from making Ubuntu look good, what is the argument behind making the menu so obscure? --Kevin Liao -- DISCLAIMER-- This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this email by mistake and delete this email from your system. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be error free. The sender does not accept liability for errors or omissions as a result of internet transmission. Any commitment implied or otherwise contained in this message require separate verification of the sender's authority. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Fitts Law
On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 8:48 AM, Kevin Liao kevinlia...@gmail.com wrote: Apart from making Ubuntu look good, what is the argument behind making the menu so obscure? --Kevin Liao It really isn't a problem for a power-user like myself - I have basically memorized the (hidden) menu item positions for the apps I use frequently, so I don't miss and have to re-correct when I make my fitts-law reach for the bookmarks menu. However, it's a big problem for users who have little confidence in themselves. It's not obvious that there are any menu items or where they are, and in fact it takes a user interaction (moving the mouse to the top of the screen or holding down, not just pressing, ALT) to show them. The interface is (FAR) less discoverable, and thus less useful. I propose that the file menu be shown and window title be hidden by default in full-screen mode, at least. When you are using one window that takes up the whole screen, knowing its name is never important. The only time the window name changes is when you're using the web browser, and browsers show the name at least twice - once in the tab bar and once in the window title. The title is only necessary for distinguishing tabs and locating pages in a search engine or window list, so showing the title instead of the menu bar doesn't make sense. For some applications, the new menu bar system is stupid. For example, if I've just selected a tool in The GIMP and I now want to access the program's menu bar, I am presented with nothing when I move my mouse to the top of the screen. Being the adaptable and forgiving individual I am, I have no problem investigating and finding out that I need to return focus to the main window before using the menu bar; but a less confident and adaptable designer using The GIMP will be confused by the pointless disappearance of the menu bar. Finally, I want to know what in the world touch users are supposed to do when they want to select a menu item. I don't have a touch-capable device to test with, so if somebody on the touch side of things could explain that one to me, perhaps this would be more clear. Thanks to the Ayatana folks for your consideration, Ryan ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Fitts Law
On Di, 2011-04-12 at 21:48 +0800, Kevin Liao wrote: However, Unity's implementation of the Global Menu is that it becomes a menu when it is hovered over. Doesn't this mean that Fitts Law is rendered invalid because the user is in a sense blind until the mouse hovers over the menu? I don't have a link, but somewhere on the blogs or in a bug report I read a comment (I think by Mark himself), that actually the idea is for the menu to become gradually more visible when the mouse approaches it - like Notif-OSD bubbles in reverse. Apparently there are currently problems with X not playing nice. I assume that this is still intended to be implemented in the future. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Fitts Law
Hi, On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 11:03 PM, Mario Vukelic mario.vuke...@dantian.org wrote: On Di, 2011-04-12 at 21:48 +0800, Kevin Liao wrote: However, Unity's implementation of the Global Menu is that it becomes a menu when it is hovered over. Doesn't this mean that Fitts Law is rendered invalid because the user is in a sense blind until the mouse hovers over the menu? I don't have a link, but somewhere on the blogs or in a bug report I read a comment (I think by Mark himself), that actually the idea is for the menu to become gradually more visible when the mouse approaches it - like Notif-OSD bubbles in reverse. Apparently there are currently problems with X not playing nice. I assume that this is still intended to be implemented in the future. I hope that doesn't happen. I already find the menu flicker that appears when I press Alt a distraction. Having that happen when I happen to move the mouse close to the top of the screen would be even worse. Thanks, J. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Fitts Law
I don't have a link, but somewhere on the blogs or in a bug report I read a comment (I think by Mark himself), that actually the idea is for the menu to become gradually more visible when the mouse approaches it - like Notif-OSD bubbles in reverse. I like this approach as long as there isn't too much 'visual noise'. IMHO - Global menu bar and the new overlay scrollbar have (right now) the same UX problem: 1. MOVE cursor to desired area 2. »identify target« MOVE cursor to it 3. interaction In the end you move your mouse twice before your able to interact (click). This its a real UX problem because you have often to preform this 'aiming task'. The fade-in approaches could work for the global menu bar. But I see difficulties to solve the problem for the overlay scrollbar because they are not visible enough while aiming (compare to the old scrollbar). Just some thoughts Thibaut ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
