Re: [Ayatana] Left close buttons on tabs
Chrome's tab behavior for quickly closing tabs is for quickly closing the current tab and the ones after (to the right) of it.If close buttons for the tabs were on the left, then Chrome's behavior would be the same, reorder the tabs upon close, resize them (if necessary) ones the mouse leaves the tab area. Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 18:34:18 + From: m...@canonical.com To: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Left close buttons on tabs -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Mark Shuttleworth wrote on 20/02/11 15:04: The close-multiple-tabs-fast behaviour just requires that the tab realignment be smart. If you look closely, Chrome realigns twice, once for fast closing, then for better spacing. In other words, if fast-closing is a goal, then it's perfectly possible to ensure that successive close buttons are placed underneath one another, and then the whole set are re-flowed once the obvious closefest is over. ... That would be correct only when none of the tabs you were closing was the last one in the row. If you did close the last tab, though, then putting the close button for the previous tab under the cursor would require the developer to choose one of three unattractive options. 1. Widen all tabs to be even wider than they will be once you leave, and crop part of the last one: | | |/x 1 \/x 2 \/x 3 \/x 4 \/x 5 \| ↓ | __ __ __ ↓| |/x 1 \/x 2 \/x 3 \/x 4 |\ ↓ | __ __ ↓| |/x 1 \/x 2 \/x 3 |\ | | |/x 1 \/x 2 \/x 3 \| (after leaving) 2. Widen all tabs except the last one to be wider than they will be once you leave, with the last one temporarily being narrower than all the others: | | |/x 1 \/x 2 \/x 3 \/x 4 \/x 5 \| ↓ | __ __ __ ↓___ | |/x 1 \/x 2 \/x 3 \/x 4 \| ↓ | __ __ ↓___ | |/x 1 \/x 2 \/x 3 \| | | |/x 1 \/x 2 \/x 3 \| 3. Make all tabs temporarily jump one place to the right, resizing back to the left when you leave: | | |/x 1 \/x 2 \/x 3 \/x 4 \/x 5 \| ↓ | ↓___ | |__/x 1 \/x 2 \/x 3 \/x 4 \| ↓ | ↓___ | |/x 1 \/x 2 \/x 3 \| | | |/x 1 \/x 2 \/x 3 \| Close buttons at the trailing end avoid any of these awkward choices. And as a bonus, if all the tabs you closed were, when you closed them, the last tab in the row, no further resizing is required once you leave the area. | | |/ 1 x\/ 2 x\/ 3 x\/ 4 x\/ 5 x\| ↓ | __ _ __ ↓ | |/ 1 x\/ 2 x\/ 3 x\/ 4 x\| ↓ | ___↓ | |/ 1 x\/ 2 x\/ 3 x\| | | |/ 1 x\/ 2 x\/ 3 x\| - -- mpt -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk1r6qoACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecoXHwCgs/EA2wsDs1y7pstHoNeQWQVT Ke0An0cR05yK1xapSBQOaoTaNjUL4+AQ =JWlY -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Left close buttons on tabs
It is true that Chrome does not currently cover the use case Matthew presented, even with the buttons on the right, but I think his point was that it *could* if the devs *wanted to*, while with buttons on the right, it is not possible without awkwardness. That said, I do question if two having different behaviors (sliding when the tab is not the final one, resizing when it is) is a good idea... sounds inconsistent and awkward in its own way. Also, even buttons on the right do not properly cover the case where the use wants to start closing by the last tab, but there are not enough tabs to horizontally fill the screen, unless we follow the tabs are streched for horizontal feeling even when there are very few tabs philosophy of Nautilus... which is kinda ugly, to be honest. Le lundi 28 février 2011 à 14:14 -0500, Mark Curtis a écrit : Chrome's tab behavior for quickly closing tabs is for quickly closing the current tab and the ones after (to the right) of it. If close buttons for the tabs were on the left, then Chrome's behavior would be the same, reorder the tabs upon close, resize them (if necessary) ones the mouse leaves the tab area. Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 18:34:18 + From: m...@canonical.com To: ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Left close buttons on tabs -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Mark Shuttleworth wrote on 20/02/11 15:04: The close-multiple-tabs-fast behaviour just requires that the tab realignment be smart. If you look closely, Chrome realigns twice, once for fast closing, then for better spacing. In other words, if fast-closing is a goal, then it's perfectly possible to ensure that successive close buttons are placed underneath one another, and then the whole set are re-flowed once the obvious closefest is over. ... That would be correct only when none of the tabs you were closing was the last one in the row. If yo u did close the last tab, though, then putting the close button for the previous tab under the cursor would require the developer to choose one of three unattractive options. 1. Widen all tabs to be even wider than they will be once you leave, and crop part of the last one: | | |/x 1 \/x 2 \/x 3 \/x 4 \/x 5 \| ↓ | __ __ __ ↓| |/x 1 \/x 2 \/x 3 \/x 4 |\ ↓ | __ __ ↓| |/x 1 \/x 2 \/x 3 | \ | | |/x 1 \/x 2 \/x 3 \| (after leaving) 2. Widen all tabs except the last one to be wider than they will be once you leave, with the last one temporarily being narrower than all the others: | | |/x 1 \/x 2 \/x 3 \/x 4 \/x 5 \| ↓ | __ __ __ ↓___ | |/x 1 \/x 2 \/x 3 \/x 4 \| ↓ | __ __ ↓___ | |/x 1 \/x 2 \/x 3 \| | | |/x 1 \/x 2 \/x 3 \| 3. Make all tabs temporarily jump one place to the right, resizing back to the left when you leave: | | |/x 1 \/x 2 \/x 3 \/x 4 \/x 5 \| ↓ | ↓___ | |__/x 1 \/x 2 \/x 3 \/x 4 \| ↓ | ↓___ | |/x 1 \/x 2 \/x 3 \| | | /font |/x 1 \/x 2 \/x 3 \| Close buttons at the trailing end avoid any of these awkward choices. And as a bonus, if all the tabs you closed were, when you closed them, the last tab in the row, no further resizing is required once you leave the area. | | |/ 1 x\/ 2 x\/ 3 x\/ 4 x\/ 5 x\| ↓ | __ _ __ ↓ | |/ 1 x\/ 2 x\/ 3 x\/ 4 x\| ↓ | ___↓ | |/ 1 x\/ 2 x\/ 3 x\| | | |/ 1 x\/ 2 x\/ 3 x\| - -- mpt -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk1r6qoACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecoXHwCgs/EA2wsDs1y7pstHoNeQWQVT Ke0An0cR05yK1xapSBQOaoTaNjUL4+AQ =JWlY -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Left close buttons on tabs
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Mark Curtis wrote on 28/02/11 19:14: Chrome's tab behavior for quickly closing tabs is for quickly closing the current tab and the ones after (to the right) of it. Once there are no more tabs to the right, it works for tabs to the left as well, up to a maximum tab width. If close buttons for the tabs were on the left, then Chrome's behavior would be the same, reorder the tabs upon close, resize them (if necessary) ones the mouse leaves the tab area. Which would work for tabs to the right, but not for tabs to the left as it does now. Conscious User wrote on 28/02/11 19:42: It is true that Chrome does not currently cover the use case Matthew presented, even with the buttons on the right, but I think his point was that it *could* if the devs *wanted to*, while with buttons on the right, it is not possible without awkwardness. ... Actually, I was describing Chrome's current behavior. That said, I do question if two having different behaviors (sliding when the tab is not the final one, resizing when it is) is a good idea... sounds inconsistent and awkward in its own way. ... The sliding isn't a goal in itself. It is only part of the secondary goal of minimizing distraction (the primary goal being maximizing efficiency). Sliding once is less distracting than sliding twice. Also, even buttons on the right do not properly cover the case where the use wants to start closing by the last tab, but there are not enough tabs to horizontally fill the screen, unless we follow the tabs are streched for horizontal feeling even when there are very few tabs philosophy of Nautilus... which is kinda ugly, to be honest. ... Indeed. The Chrome developers have set a maximum tab width at the point where they think aesthetics trump efficiency. - -- mpt -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk1sBo0ACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecpZjACfQOGOh17rs7eFNGS1JVMxbCWh zNIAn0RzB4h6wasDESjhmfNK5wpnkatR =8hGe -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Left close buttons on tabs
Hi, Thanks a lot for your answer. On Firefox for example, there is an extension (Tab Mix Plus) which allows to put left close button at left side, with this order : Close - Icon - Name And when there is only one tab opened, close button is kept : http://pix.toile-libre.org/upload/original/1295884379.png And of course, the idea was here also to keep the fast closing property. But having this at default (left close button + rapid-close ability) will make it logical with remaining of Ubuntu behavior. Xavier Le 20/02/2011 16:04, Mark Shuttleworth wrote : The close-multiple-tabs-fast behaviour just requires that the tab realignment be smart. If you look closely, Chrome realigns twice, once for fast closing, then for better spacing. In other words, if fast-closing is a goal, then it's perfectly possible to ensure that successive close buttons are placed underneath one another, and then the whole set are re-flowed once the obvious closefest is over. So, +1 for moving the close button to the left, for consistency, as long as the rapid-close behaviour is preserved. Mark ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Left close buttons on tabs
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Paul Sladen wrote on 27/01/11 12:24: On Thu, 27 Jan 2011, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: Chromium and Chrome have close buttons on the right of their tabs because it's faster to use than having them on the left. http://www.theinvisibl.com/2009/12/08/chrometabs/ I fear that the open in middle tab behaviour rather killed that advantage. You now (Firefox default) have to hunt for the tab to close, rather than the most recent tab being at the end. :) ... On the contrary, it means that tabs relating to the same task are grouped together (because they were opened from the same parent tab), so they can be closed together when you are done. Meanwhile, Firefox is adopting the same fast-tab-closing scheme, which means Firefox's close buttons will stay on the right too. http://frankyan.wordpress.com/2010/07/30/making-tab-closing-easy/ https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=465086#c183 - -- mpt -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk1H86UACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecpPaQCgzuxbjTyzi3V02EyQrhIgSVMk MKsAn0iQzaRQJq+6knN7uwtwS2ZIROZr =dSRE -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Left close buttons on tabs
On Tue, 2011-02-01 at 11:51 +, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Paul Sladen wrote on 27/01/11 12:24: On Thu, 27 Jan 2011, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: Chromium and Chrome have close buttons on the right of their tabs because it's faster to use than having them on the left. http://www.theinvisibl.com/2009/12/08/chrometabs/ I fear that the open in middle tab behaviour rather killed that advantage. You now (Firefox default) have to hunt for the tab to close, rather than the most recent tab being at the end. :) ... On the contrary, it means that tabs relating to the same task are grouped together (because they were opened from the same parent tab), so they can be closed together when you are done. +1 , heh I thought I might be the only one who found that behavior confusing! :D Using tabplusmix extension, Open new tab next to current one is the very first setting i change for a new Firefox Profile. -- Cheers, Vish ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Left close buttons on tabs
On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 12:51, Matthew Paul Thomas m...@canonical.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Paul Sladen wrote on 27/01/11 12:24: On Thu, 27 Jan 2011, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: Chromium and Chrome have close buttons on the right of their tabs because it's faster to use than having them on the left. http://www.theinvisibl.com/2009/12/08/chrometabs/ I fear that the open in middle tab behaviour rather killed that advantage. You now (Firefox default) have to hunt for the tab to close, rather than the most recent tab being at the end. :) ... On the contrary, it means that tabs relating to the same task are grouped together (because they were opened from the same parent tab), so they can be closed together when you are done. Meanwhile, Firefox is adopting the same fast-tab-closing scheme, which means Firefox's close buttons will stay on the right too. http://frankyan.wordpress.com/2010/07/30/making-tab-closing-easy/ https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=465086#c183 There is no causal relation between buttons on the right and the fast closing scheme. As the blog post acknowledges, everything could be mirrored, and it would still work. The justification for buttons on the right is that LTR languages read from left to right. The same could be said for window closing buttons, so why not put those on the right, too? -- Remco ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Left close buttons on tabs
in other words, we close windows more often than we identify them by their title-bar-text, since most windows we close are in the front, top-of-z-stack, and we already know what we're about to close. so all we care about is finally hittilng that button via Fitt's worst law. aim, shoot. No read. LTR is perhaps until today the explanation for why an object will first print title and only then close or cancel button, but indeed we started sorting items after frequency of use, selected items after relevance to the supposed workflow and suppressed items that overloaded information on the UI. i'd say i'd rather do away with the titles in tab-titlebars altogher, before letting them break a newly won overall consistent logic On 2011-02-01, frederik.nn...@gmail.com frederik.nn...@gmail.com wrote: but action speaks louder than words, and a document who'se identity predominantly defines the content of the screen, needs not be identified by reading the titlebar text. looking at the screen alone suffices to know, what window i'm closing. To show the document title is orthogonal to the interaction syntax of hitting the window-close control of a document which is in the front. since that is the case, left-close is our spacial memory already: because all windows have this control on the top-left (even window previews in the future). On 2011-02-01, Remco remc...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 12:51, Matthew Paul Thomas m...@canonical.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Paul Sladen wrote on 27/01/11 12:24: On Thu, 27 Jan 2011, Matthew Paul Thomas wrote: Chromium and Chrome have close buttons on the right of their tabs because it's faster to use than having them on the left. http://www.theinvisibl.com/2009/12/08/chrometabs/ I fear that the open in middle tab behaviour rather killed that advantage. You now (Firefox default) have to hunt for the tab to close, rather than the most recent tab being at the end. :) ... On the contrary, it means that tabs relating to the same task are grouped together (because they were opened from the same parent tab), so they can be closed together when you are done. Meanwhile, Firefox is adopting the same fast-tab-closing scheme, which means Firefox's close buttons will stay on the right too. http://frankyan.wordpress.com/2010/07/30/making-tab-closing-easy/ https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=465086#c183 There is no causal relation between buttons on the right and the fast closing scheme. As the blog post acknowledges, everything could be mirrored, and it would still work. The justification for buttons on the right is that LTR languages read from left to right. The same could be said for window closing buttons, so why not put those on the right, too? -- Remco ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] Left close buttons on tabs
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Valeryan_24 wrote on 17/01/11 09:41: ... As Ubuntu now has Close - Minimize - Maximize buttons on right side of the window, as Unity panel will be on the left side of screen, I wonder if it would be possible also to get the X close buttons on tabs put to the left for the applications which are using tabs : Firefox - Thunderbird - Libre Office - Empathy - Nautilus - Gedit - Shutter... ... Chromium and Chrome have close buttons on the right of their tabs because it's faster to use than having them on the left. http://www.theinvisibl.com/2009/12/08/chrometabs/ So that probably won't change any time soon. - -- mpt -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAk1BozgACgkQ6PUxNfU6ecqzbQCglxQOJjtAGDJHYWk9DXuNGBoQ VO8AoIi/w6TbZkWKPOYmzXSayL1NfC8a =ILOF -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
[Ayatana] Left close buttons on tabs
Hello, First thanks for all your work on Ubuntu and design ! I already asked this question in Ayatana Ubuntu Launchpad site, but this list is perhaps a better place. As Ubuntu now has Close - Minimize - Maximize buttons on right side of the window, as Unity panel will be on the left side of screen, I wonder if it would be possible also to get the X close buttons on tabs put to the left for the applications which are using tabs : Firefox - Thunderbird - Libre Office - Empathy - Nautilus - Gedit - Shutter... I don't know if application tabs are affected by themes in the same way that title bars, and if not, if it requires a fix in GTK+ GUI framework (moreover, work should be different for GTK+ applications and others like Firefox) ? Because now we are used to automatically go on left upper side to close, and this would make sense with a global uniform behavior. This is just a detail, not critical thing, and I fully know there are plenty of work to do before (on Unity...), but as user it's a matter of visual and practical aspect which could being integrated in the future theme (I think icons should be updated for 11.10 or 12.04). Is it something you have in mind for Ubuntu ? Thanks. Best regards, Xavier ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
