Re: [Ayatana] Alt-Tab and switching - 1 level or 2?

2011-04-15 Thread Swapnil Chitnis
Maybe you can use another compiz plugin called static application
switcher. I'm new to community discussions.

On 14 Apr 2011 17:46, Paul Sladen ubu...@paul.sladen.org wrote:

On Thu, 14 Apr 2011, Pippa Kyle wrote:
  a. Already being in a Terminal (currently Alt-tab-tab-...
 We're thinking maybe:
 ...

If I understand correctly?

 a. From another Terminal  Alt-*long pause*-tab-tab-tab
 b. From a Firefox window  Alt-Tab-*long pause*-tab-tab-tab


-Paul


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Re: [Ayatana] Alt-Tab and switching - 1 level or 2?

2011-04-14 Thread Pippa Kyle

We're thinking maybe:

Step 1: Alt-Tab-Tab-Tab to relevant app.
Step 2: Either a) Release Alt to access mostly recent viewed window for 
that app (or only window if there's only 1 window open for that app).
or b} Pause - spread of windows for that app is displayed.  
Tab to one you want, then release Alt to go to it.


OK or not?

On 13/04/11 18:32, Paul Sladen wrote:

On Wed, 13 Apr 2011, Pippa Kyle wrote:

When using Alt-Tab for switching between windows, would you like windows
of a particular app grouped under that app?

Thank you Pippa!  Could you describe how a second-level selection
might work?

For instance, if I have fifteen full-screen terminals open, how would
the selection process work if I wanted to switch to the
third-to-most-recent Terminal, from:

   a. Already being in a Terminal (currently Alt-tab-tab-tab)
   b. Needing to switch from a Firefox window? (Alt-tab-tab-tab-tab)

-Paul




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Re: [Ayatana] Alt-Tab and switching - 1 level or 2?

2011-04-14 Thread Paul Sladen
On Thu, 14 Apr 2011, Pippa Kyle wrote:
 a. Already being in a Terminal (currently Alt-tab-tab-tab)
 b. Needing to switch from a Firefox window? (Alt-tab-tab-tab-tab)
 We're thinking maybe:
 ...

If I understand correctly?

  a. From another Terminal  Alt-*long pause*-tab-tab-tab
  b. From a Firefox window  Alt-Tab-*long pause*-tab-tab-tab

-Paul


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Re: [Ayatana] Alt-Tab and switching - 1 level or 2?

2011-04-13 Thread Pippa Kyle
Sorry, guys, I should have realised that you probably don't spend a lot 
of time with Win/Mac.


So a slightly different question...

When using Alt-Tab for switching between windows, would you like windows 
of a particular app grouped under that app?


So, for example, you have 3 Firefox windows, 2 email windows and 1 IRC 
window open.


Do you want Alt-Tab to show you:
Option 1 - Firefox icon, Email client icon, IRC client icon.  You select 
one to view its individual windows (this is the Mac way, and seems to be 
the Gnome 3 way too now).

or
Option 2 - 3 Firefox windows (with Firefox icon on corner of each), 2 
email windows (with icons) and 1 IRC window (with icon). You can access 
each window directly (this is pretty much the current implementation and 
also the Win way).


Back to you...

On 12/04/11 16:51, Pippa Kyle wrote:

Hello Ayatana guys!  Just wanted to get some opinions...

I'm looking into making improvements to task/application switching on 
the desktop with Alt-Tab.  There are slightly different approaches 
currently for Windows 7 and Mac.


Personally I like the Windows way, as the window preview in the 
background helps me find exactly what I'm looking for.  I can easily 
switch back and forth between 2 apps, and I can also see which window 
is part of which app.


I can see that the app-based approach in Mac isn't a bad thing, but 
without the window preview, I'm not sure how this approach would scale 
to smaller screens.


Any thoughts on this, and what would be good for Unity?

Regards,
Pippa




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Re: [Ayatana] Alt-Tab and switching - 1 level or 2?

2011-04-13 Thread M. Adnan Quaium
Option 1 Sounds great! I always like the idea of switching between Apps
instead of switching between windows. Though it is time consuming, but still
that is my favorite option.




On 13 April 2011 19:59, Pippa Kyle pippa.k...@canonical.com wrote:

 Sorry, guys, I should have realised that you probably don't spend a lot of
 time with Win/Mac.

 So a slightly different question...

 When using Alt-Tab for switching between windows, would you like windows of
 a particular app grouped under that app?

 So, for example, you have 3 Firefox windows, 2 email windows and 1 IRC
 window open.

 Do you want Alt-Tab to show you:
 Option 1 - Firefox icon, Email client icon, IRC client icon.  You select
 one to view its individual windows (this is the Mac way, and seems to be the
 Gnome 3 way too now).
 or
 Option 2 - 3 Firefox windows (with Firefox icon on corner of each), 2 email
 windows (with icons) and 1 IRC window (with icon). You can access each
 window directly (this is pretty much the current implementation and also the
 Win way).

 Back to you...

 On 12/04/11 16:51, Pippa Kyle wrote:

 Hello Ayatana guys!  Just wanted to get some opinions...

 I'm looking into making improvements to task/application switching on the
 desktop with Alt-Tab.  There are slightly different approaches currently for
 Windows 7 and Mac.

 Personally I like the Windows way, as the window preview in the background
 helps me find exactly what I'm looking for.  I can easily switch back and
 forth between 2 apps, and I can also see which window is part of which app.

 I can see that the app-based approach in Mac isn't a bad thing, but
 without the window preview, I'm not sure how this approach would scale to
 smaller screens.

 Any thoughts on this, and what would be good for Unity?

 Regards,
 Pippa



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Re: [Ayatana] Alt-Tab and switching - 1 level or 2?

2011-04-13 Thread Christian Mackintosh
Option 1 seems neat but slow. When I'm working between two windows, be they
of the same application or different ones, option 2 means I can easily flip
between them with a quick press of Alt+Tab.

Thanks,

Christian

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 9:03 PM, M. Adnan Quaium
adnan.qua...@linux.org.bdwrote:

 Option 1 Sounds great! I always like the idea of switching between Apps
 instead of switching between windows. Though it is time consuming, but still
 that is my favorite option.





 On 13 April 2011 19:59, Pippa Kyle pippa.k...@canonical.com wrote:

 Sorry, guys, I should have realised that you probably don't spend a lot of
 time with Win/Mac.

 So a slightly different question...

 When using Alt-Tab for switching between windows, would you like windows
 of a particular app grouped under that app?

 So, for example, you have 3 Firefox windows, 2 email windows and 1 IRC
 window open.

 Do you want Alt-Tab to show you:
 Option 1 - Firefox icon, Email client icon, IRC client icon.  You select
 one to view its individual windows (this is the Mac way, and seems to be the
 Gnome 3 way too now).
 or
 Option 2 - 3 Firefox windows (with Firefox icon on corner of each), 2
 email windows (with icons) and 1 IRC window (with icon). You can access each
 window directly (this is pretty much the current implementation and also the
 Win way).

 Back to you...

 On 12/04/11 16:51, Pippa Kyle wrote:

 Hello Ayatana guys!  Just wanted to get some opinions...

 I'm looking into making improvements to task/application switching on the
 desktop with Alt-Tab.  There are slightly different approaches currently for
 Windows 7 and Mac.

 Personally I like the Windows way, as the window preview in the
 background helps me find exactly what I'm looking for.  I can easily switch
 back and forth between 2 apps, and I can also see which window is part of
 which app.

 I can see that the app-based approach in Mac isn't a bad thing, but
 without the window preview, I'm not sure how this approach would scale to
 smaller screens.

 Any thoughts on this, and what would be good for Unity?

 Regards,
 Pippa



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 M. Adnan Quaium

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 Technical University of Delft
 Mekelweg 4
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 The Netherlands

 URL: http://adnan.quaium.com


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Re: [Ayatana] Alt-Tab and switching - 1 level or 2?

2011-04-13 Thread Paul Sladen
On Wed, 13 Apr 2011, Pippa Kyle wrote:
 When using Alt-Tab for switching between windows, would you like windows 
 of a particular app grouped under that app?

Thank you Pippa!  Could you describe how a second-level selection
might work?

For instance, if I have fifteen full-screen terminals open, how would
the selection process work if I wanted to switch to the
third-to-most-recent Terminal, from:

  a. Already being in a Terminal (currently Alt-tab-tab-tab)
  b. Needing to switch from a Firefox window? (Alt-tab-tab-tab-tab)

-Paul


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Re: [Ayatana] Alt-Tab and switching - 1 level or 2?

2011-04-13 Thread Elias K Gardner
Agreed I like seeing all windows at once. It could be really useful if they
were grouped by application as long as I don't have to select a group before
being able to see and select the window I want in that group.

On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 1:17 PM, Christian Mackintosh 
christian.mackint...@gmail.com wrote:

 Option 1 seems neat but slow. When I'm working between two windows, be they
 of the same application or different ones, option 2 means I can easily flip
 between them with a quick press of Alt+Tab.

 Thanks,

 Christian

 On Wed, Apr 13, 2011 at 9:03 PM, M. Adnan Quaium 
 adnan.qua...@linux.org.bd wrote:

 Option 1 Sounds great! I always like the idea of switching between Apps
 instead of switching between windows. Though it is time consuming, but still
 that is my favorite option.





 On 13 April 2011 19:59, Pippa Kyle pippa.k...@canonical.com wrote:

 Sorry, guys, I should have realised that you probably don't spend a lot
 of time with Win/Mac.

 So a slightly different question...

 When using Alt-Tab for switching between windows, would you like windows
 of a particular app grouped under that app?

 So, for example, you have 3 Firefox windows, 2 email windows and 1 IRC
 window open.

 Do you want Alt-Tab to show you:
 Option 1 - Firefox icon, Email client icon, IRC client icon.  You select
 one to view its individual windows (this is the Mac way, and seems to be the
 Gnome 3 way too now).
 or
 Option 2 - 3 Firefox windows (with Firefox icon on corner of each), 2
 email windows (with icons) and 1 IRC window (with icon). You can access each
 window directly (this is pretty much the current implementation and also the
 Win way).

 Back to you...

 On 12/04/11 16:51, Pippa Kyle wrote:

 Hello Ayatana guys!  Just wanted to get some opinions...

 I'm looking into making improvements to task/application switching on
 the desktop with Alt-Tab.  There are slightly different approaches 
 currently
 for Windows 7 and Mac.

 Personally I like the Windows way, as the window preview in the
 background helps me find exactly what I'm looking for.  I can easily switch
 back and forth between 2 apps, and I can also see which window is part of
 which app.

 I can see that the app-based approach in Mac isn't a bad thing, but
 without the window preview, I'm not sure how this approach would scale to
 smaller screens.

 Any thoughts on this, and what would be good for Unity?

 Regards,
 Pippa



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 M. Adnan Quaium

 MSc Student
 Faculty of Electrical Engineering Mathematics and Computer Science
 Technical University of Delft
 Mekelweg 4
 Delft
 The Netherlands

 URL: http://adnan.quaium.com



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Re: [Ayatana] Alt-Tab and switching

2011-04-12 Thread Ian Santopietro
I personally like the ring switcher effect available in CCSM. It looks nice
and provides window-based switching without being too much like either of
the Unmentionable OSs. :)

On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 09:51, Pippa Kyle pippa.k...@canonical.com wrote:

 Hello Ayatana guys!  Just wanted to get some opinions...

 I'm looking into making improvements to task/application switching on the
 desktop with Alt-Tab.  There are slightly different approaches currently for
 Windows 7 and Mac.

 Personally I like the Windows way, as the window preview in the background
 helps me find exactly what I'm looking for.  I can easily switch back and
 forth between 2 apps, and I can also see which window is part of which app.

 I can see that the app-based approach in Mac isn't a bad thing, but without
 the window preview, I'm not sure how this approach would scale to smaller
 screens.

 Any thoughts on this, and what would be good for Unity?

 Regards,
 Pippa


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Re: [Ayatana] Alt-Tab and switching

2011-04-12 Thread Paul Sladen
On Tue, 12 Apr 2011, Pippa Kyle wrote:

Hello Pippa, greetings!

 Personally I like the Windows way, as the window preview

It's been a while (a decade) since I was regularly using MS Windows
machines, and I expect that there may have been a few revisions in the
mean-time!

Would you be able to describe in prose form or with screenshots what
the precise behaviours you've got in mind are?  This would make it
easier for people less familiar with those platforms to follow along.

I think my own observations about Alt-Tab are that I don't really look
at the dialogues presented and mainly rely on Alt-Tab acting as a
reliable LIFO stack (most recent first).  For your request, is it the
behaviour itself that you're looking into, or just the accompanying
user-interface and visible arrangement?

-Paul



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Re: [Ayatana] Alt-Tab and switching

2011-04-12 Thread Kevin Liao
Just my personal opinion, the thumbnails in Windows are too small to be
useful. I think that the Mac one is better since it is easier for the user
to make out icons rather than hunting for details on a tiny thumbnail.
Cheers,
Kevin Liao.

On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 11:51 PM, Pippa Kyle pippa.k...@canonical.comwrote:

 Hello Ayatana guys!  Just wanted to get some opinions...

 I'm looking into making improvements to task/application switching on the
 desktop with Alt-Tab.  There are slightly different approaches currently for
 Windows 7 and Mac.

 Personally I like the Windows way, as the window preview in the background
 helps me find exactly what I'm looking for.  I can easily switch back and
 forth between 2 apps, and I can also see which window is part of which app.

 I can see that the app-based approach in Mac isn't a bad thing, but without
 the window preview, I'm not sure how this approach would scale to smaller
 screens.

 Any thoughts on this, and what would be good for Unity?

 Regards,
 Pippa


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Re: [Ayatana] Alt-Tab and switching

2011-04-12 Thread Elias K Gardner
I like how alt + tab currently works but agree that bigger icons would
increase usability.
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Re: [Ayatana] Alt-Tab and switching

2011-04-12 Thread Pippa Kyle
You shouldn't need to make out details in Win7 as the whole window is 
previewed on the screen behind the switcher.


On 12/04/11 17:18, Kevin Liao wrote:
Just my personal opinion, the thumbnails in Windows are too small to 
be useful. I think that the Mac one is better since it is easier for 
the user to make out icons rather than hunting for details on a tiny 
thumbnail.

Cheers,
Kevin Liao.

On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 11:51 PM, Pippa Kyle pippa.k...@canonical.com 
mailto:pippa.k...@canonical.com wrote:


Hello Ayatana guys!  Just wanted to get some opinions...

I'm looking into making improvements to task/application switching
on the desktop with Alt-Tab.  There are slightly different
approaches currently for Windows 7 and Mac.

Personally I like the Windows way, as the window preview in the
background helps me find exactly what I'm looking for.  I can
easily switch back and forth between 2 apps, and I can also see
which window is part of which app.

I can see that the app-based approach in Mac isn't a bad thing,
but without the window preview, I'm not sure how this approach
would scale to smaller screens.

Any thoughts on this, and what would be good for Unity?

Regards,
Pippa


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Re: [Ayatana] Alt-Tab and switching

2011-04-12 Thread Jake Tolbert


  
  
On 4/12/2011 11:37 AM, Pippa Kyle wrote:

  
  You shouldn't need to make out details in Win7 as the whole window
  is previewed on the screen behind the switcher.
  
  On 12/04/11 17:18, Kevin Liao wrote:
  

Just my personal opinion, the thumbnails in Windows are too
small to be useful. I think that the Mac one is better since it
is easier for the user to make out icons rather than hunting for
details on a tiny thumbnail.
 Cheers,
Kevin Liao.
  
On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 11:51 PM, Pippa Kyle pippa.k...@canonical.com
  wrote:
  Hello Ayatana guys! Just wanted to get some
opinions...

I'm looking into making improvements to task/application
switching on the desktop with Alt-Tab. There are
slightly different approaches currently for Windows 7
and Mac.

Personally I like the Windows way, as the window preview
in the background helps me find exactly what I'm looking
for. I can easily switch back and forth between 2 apps,
and I can also see which window is part of which app.

I can see that the app-based approach in Mac isn't a bad
thing, but without the window preview, I'm not sure how
this approach would scale to smaller screens.

Any thoughts on this, and what would be good for Unity?

Regards,
Pippa


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I just started using Windows 7
at work (having been a long-time Ubuntu at home and Win XP at
work user). I found Windows 7's way of previewing windows while
holding alt and tapping tab very confusing--I had no visual cues
of where I was "at" or how many times I needed to tap Tab to get
where I was going, as the switcher was often covered by the
window that I was previewing (this is probably a bug or, more
likely, simply a poor implementation of what they were trying to
achieve). 

I find previews (even the outline-of-the-window-only previews)
visually confusing, mostly because when I alt+tab, I want to use
as little brain power on finding the new window as possible.
Previews add visual noise that's rarely helpful to me and tends
to ask me to devote brain power to figuring out what I'm being
shown.

I much prefer the traditional alt+tab switcher (in both Windows
and Gnome) which provides application icons and text, only
because it's easier for me to identify icon shapes and colors
quickly then confirm my choice with the window title, rather
than to try to figure out whether the white window filled with
rows of text that I'm looking at is a version of a spreadsheet
or my inbox. 

Unfortunately, the traditional switcher is rather plain jane
appearance-wise. There's probably a better way to switch
applications, something I haven't seen yet (I can't comment on
the Mac implementation, having never used it). But I think
focusing on making windows/icons immediately recognizable while
minimizing visual noise 

Re: [Ayatana] Alt-Tab and switching

2011-04-12 Thread Ryan Prior
On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 10:51 AM, Pippa Kyle pippa.k...@canonical.com wrote:
 Any thoughts on this, and what would be good for Unity?

For power-users, the more important thing is that the window switcher
applet appear and respond immediately. On my multi-core
name-brand-graphics-card machine, it takes about a quarter-second for
the applet to show after I strike the tab-key. That response time is
totally unacceptable - it shouldn't take more than 0.03 seconds (1
frame of standard 30FPS video) for the UI to respond to a keyboard
shortcut, and ideally should take less time than that. If something in
the current system makes that delay necessary, we should change the
system enough that an immediate response can be given.

And let's be honest, it's mostly power-users who know and utilize the
alt-tab shortcut for window management.

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Re: [Ayatana] Alt-Tab and switching

2011-04-12 Thread Jamu Kakar
Hi Ryan,

On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 8:31 PM, Ryan Prior ryanpr...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 10:51 AM, Pippa Kyle pippa.k...@canonical.com wrote:
 Any thoughts on this, and what would be good for Unity?

 For power-users, the more important thing is that the window switcher
 applet appear and respond immediately. On my multi-core
 name-brand-graphics-card machine, it takes about a quarter-second for
 the applet to show after I strike the tab-key. That response time is
 totally unacceptable - it shouldn't take more than 0.03 seconds (1
 frame of standard 30FPS video) for the UI to respond to a keyboard
 shortcut, and ideally should take less time than that. If something in
 the current system makes that delay necessary, we should change the
 system enough that an immediate response can be given.

 And let's be honest, it's mostly power-users who know and utilize the
 alt-tab shortcut for window management.

This behaviour was bothering me, too.  I found that there's a 200ms
delay, by default.  You can change it in CompizConfig Settings Manager:

- Go to 'Static Application Switcher'.

- Click 'Behaviour'.

- Set 'Popup Window Delay' to 0.

I have no idea why anyone would want a delay for this operation.  I
guess it's so that a quick Alt-Tab doesn't show the switcher, but I
was finding that, more often than not, nothing would happen when I hit
Alt-Tab very quickly.  Application switching is nice and snappy with
the delay set to 0.

Thanks,
J.

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Re: [Ayatana] Alt-Tab and switching

2011-04-12 Thread Ryan Prior
On Tue, Apr 12, 2011 at 1:36 PM, Jamu Kakar jka...@kakar.ca wrote:
 Hi Ryan,
 This behaviour was bothering me, too.  I found that there's a 200ms
 delay, by default.  You can change it in CompizConfig Settings Manager:

Thanks for the info - it's interesting that 200ms was chosen as the
preferred delay time.

 I have no idea why anyone would want a delay for this operation.  I
 guess it's so that a quick Alt-Tab doesn't show the switcher, but I
 was finding that, more often than not, nothing would happen when I hit
 Alt-Tab very quickly.  Application switching is nice and snappy with
 the delay set to 0.

I'm not bothered by momentarily seeing the switcher on a quick
alt-tab, but I can understand that it would look ugly to some people.
However, changing the delay time to 0.03 seconds allows quick alt-tabs
to go without triggering the switcher applet while still feeling
responsive if I hold down the Tab key and wait for the switcher to
appear.

I think the right thing to do here is lower the default delay time.
I'd consider the current default a bug, so I've filed it here:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/unity/+bug/759061

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