Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors
Op dinsdag 07-07-2009 om 16:35 uur [tijdzone +0530], schreef mac_v: Labeling the FUSA Presentation state to a Non-critical notifications state with a checkbox is the simplest approach. *We cannot decide every app using full screen* , videos too can/cannot be disturbed by notification , several use cases have been presented here to illustrate both scenarios. When a simple FUSA checkbox can do the job why analyzing all the apps and breaking our heads over how to handle it?! I suggest labeling it as Do not disturb (many people don't want to learn what non-critical means). Also, allow applications to set this state (but applications shouldn't set this state unconditionally). -- Jan Claeys ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors
Hi, 2009/7/7 Martín Soto dons...@gmail.com: How many applications are there that are *commonly* used for giving presentations? Five? Ten, maybe? How many web browsers are in main? Given cloud based presentation such as Google Docs, they can all be used to give presentations, and I suspect can all be made to go full screen. Cheers, Al. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors
Martín Soto ha scritto: On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 9:20 PM, Steve Dodier sidnio...@gmail.com mailto:sidnio...@gmail.com wrote: What about console-presenter and evince / other PDF viewers ? They're used too for presentations. I don't think we can maintain an exhaustive list of applications, so maybe we should provide the user with a GUI to tell which apps shouldnt be overriden and in which circumstances (and have our own default apps there, like Evince in fullscreen, Presenter in fullscreen, etc). How many applications are there that are *commonly* used for giving presentations? Five? Ten, maybe? I really don't see a reason why this couldn't be done in a per-application basis. Martin: it suffers from the same problem as full-screen movies. If I am preparing for a presentation, I can be interrupted by mom, and if I don't want it I can set my state to busy. If I am actually showing the presentation, then I certainly don't want to be interrupted by ordinary notifications. Vincenzo ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors
You are right and hence the only sane way of solving the problem seems to be to give user the control to seta global do-not-disturb mode when he needs it and logging the messages that he misses.This has several advantages such as 1. No need to predict anything as predictions go wrong a lot. 2. Since user is in control there is less uncertainity. 3. The do-not-disturb mode is useful in many situations apart from fullscreen apps. Say i am writing a document in openoffice and it is very important and i must not be disturbed in any way. Then i simply set the do-not-disturb mode. Voila. 1 setting many uses. And there are no disadvantages of this solution which i see. 2009/7/7 Vincenzo Ciancia cian...@di.unipi.it Martín Soto ha scritto: On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 9:20 PM, Steve Dodier sidnio...@gmail.commailto: sidnio...@gmail.com wrote: What about console-presenter and evince / other PDF viewers ? They're used too for presentations. I don't think we can maintain an exhaustive list of applications, so maybe we should provide the user with a GUI to tell which apps shouldnt be overriden and in which circumstances (and have our own default apps there, like Evince in fullscreen, Presenter in fullscreen, etc). How many applications are there that are *commonly* used for giving presentations? Five? Ten, maybe? I really don't see a reason why this couldn't be done in a per-application basis. Martin: it suffers from the same problem as full-screen movies. If I am preparing for a presentation, I can be interrupted by mom, and if I don't want it I can set my state to busy. If I am actually showing the presentation, then I certainly don't want to be interrupted by ordinary notifications. Vincenzo ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors
On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 11:22 AM, Praveen tgpravee...@gmail.com wrote: You are right and hence the only sane way of solving the problem seems to be to give user the control to seta global do-not-disturb mode when he needs it and logging the messages that he misses.This has several advantages such as 1. No need to predict anything as predictions go wrong a lot. 2. Since user is in control there is less uncertainity. 3. The do-not-disturb mode is useful in many situations apart from fullscreen apps. Say i am writing a document in openoffice and it is very important and i must not be disturbed in any way. Then i simply set the do-not-disturb mode. Voila. 1 setting many uses. And there are no disadvantages of this solution which i see. I see a big one: you can easily forget activating the do-not-disturb thing, or deactivating it later. For example, unless you're a very experienced speaker, you're likely to be nervous before starting a presentation. This increases the probability that you forget that little detail of blocking notifications... until that very personal message from your wife pops up in front of the audience, that is. Now, your argument about predictions going wrong is true to some extent. I don't think we'll be able to find something that works 100% of the time. But this is no reason to say that we should forget about it completely and let the user do the whole work. Of course, guessing correctly is difficult, but this is precisely the hallmark of good UI design. That said, I don't think that an explicit do-not-disturb mode is a bad idea. Sometimes, as you point out, people will want to stop all interruptions because they're under pressure or something. But this, of course, doesn't go against the idea of having the system do the right thing whenever possible and without user intervention. Cheers, M. S. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors
2009/7/7 Matt Wheeler m...@funkyhat.org 2009/7/7 Martín Soto dons...@gmail.com: Take a look at my last message to this thread: I think it addresses your point much better. In summary, I think we should not pay so much attention to the data source, but to the data destination. If you're displaying to the TV or to a projector, you'd rather not have notifications there. How do you differentiate between displaying to a TV or projector for a presentation, or using an external monitor as your primary display when you're preparing, or watching a video on your own? Good question: As I mentioned in the other message, this is tricky, and I don't know the right answer. The xrandr extension provides lots of information about a video output, and it's probably possible to guess from that if we're dealing with a projector or TV. I won't be 100% correct, but it may work in many cases. Also, future versions of X/Gnome wil automatically offer a configuration box as soon as you plug in a monitor. We can consider asking the user once at that point if this is a projector. The UI for doing this would have to be very well thought, but I guess this could work if done properly. M. S. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors
Il 07/07/2009 13:30, Martín Soto ha scritto: I see a big one: you can easily forget activating the do-not-disturb thing, or deactivating it later. For example, unless you're a very experienced speaker, you're likely to be nervous before starting a presentation. This increases the probability that you forget that little detail of blocking notifications... until that very personal message from your wife pops up in front of the audience, that is. Yes, notifications with a message inside are a bit dangerous. The current behaviour could be changed in: if the chat window for the contact is opened but not visible, show the received message in the notification. If there is no open chat window for the given contact, just show a message notification, and the messages will be found opening the chat window for the contact. ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors
On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 3:22 PM, mac_v drkv...@yahoo.com wrote: The users cant/shouldnt expect everything to be spoon fed! The Option is there! just because the user forgets ,it isnt a design flaw. A crash is not the error of the car manufacturer but the driver, the manufacturer has provided the breaks its upto the user to use it! Only faulty breaks are design flaws. If the system makes it incredibly easy, it's a design flaw. If your car manufacturer provides *brakes*, but puts them somewhere inaccessible, where you can't get to them quickly in an emergency, it's a design flaw. Yes, this is ridiculous, but it was your example. Not mine. Martin's concern is certainly valid, but it may be something that should be dealt with at the application level and not by the system itself. How do we differentiate a presentation done for an audience , and a rehearsal? we cant! Is there a difference at all? -- -- Alex Launi ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors
Em Ter, 2009-07-07 às 13:49 +0200, Martín Soto escreveu: Also, future versions of X/Gnome wil automatically offer a configuration box as soon as you plug in a monitor. We can consider asking the user once at that point if this is a projector. The UI for doing this would have to be very well thought, but I guess this could work if done properly. I don't see how this guessing can be reliable. I usually use my laptop in an external monitor to save my back some pain, but I want my notifications in that case. And the idea of asking always when you plug in an external monitor is a bad one. As I said I plug one everyday, I don't want to answer the same question everyday. However I give presentations once a month. It is much more reasonable to me to turn on the don't notify me mode at that moment. Paulo ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors
Em Ter, 2009-07-07 às 13:30 +0200, Martín Soto escreveu: I see a big one: you can easily forget activating the do-not-disturb thing, or deactivating it later. For example, unless you're a very experienced speaker, you're likely to be nervous before starting a presentation. This increases the probability that you forget that little detail of blocking notifications... until that very personal message from your wife pops up in front of the audience, that is. A good solution for this very specific case is to allow applications that have a presentation mode to turn off notifications once you enter that mode. Note that evince, ooimpress, and acrobat all have different modes for presentation and full screen. They make a difference because those two modes are different. Once leaving the presentation mode the application should revert the notification status. You know, if turning off the notifications was easy (is it?), that would count as a simple papercut! Paulo ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors
On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 3:22 PM, mac_v drkv...@yahoo.com wrote: The users cant/shouldnt expect everything to be spoon fed! The Option is there! just because the user forgets ,it isnt a design flaw. I wonder what sort of design philosophy you're advocating here. One where we refrain from automating things that can be automated just so that our users don't become too lazy? If this is the case, I don't think I would identify with your ideas, anyway. A crash is not the error of the car manufacturer but the driver, the manufacturer has provided the breaks its upto the user to use it! Only faulty breaks are design flaws. This is not a matter of legal or moral responsibility. This is rather about preventing user errors, or at least mitigating their consequences when they happen, which, for me, would be a guiding design principle. Given you're using the car example, let me continue with it: Since a few years ago, engineers have been working on different types of sensor systems (such as radar or sonar) that could automatically operate a car's breaks before it crashes into something. Would you advocate *not* installing such systems in commercial cars because the pedal is there! if the user just fails to press it on time and kills himself against a wall, it isn't a design flaw!? If we start to make a too complex program , it can ,as Mark said, only lead to more bugs. I will just refrain from falling into the Mark said type of argumentation (see *argumentum ad verecundiam [1])* How do we differentiate a presentation done for an audience , and a rehearsal? we cant! This is just a particular example, but I would say *in most cases* people rehearse in front of their normal screen, but they present using a projector. If we can differentiate between those two cases, we'll have probably dealt with more than 90% of the practical situations. As I already said, and this is possibly the most important point, no solution will be 100% reliable, but this is no reason to discard it. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors
On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Paulo J. S. Silva pjssi...@ime.usp.brwrote: Em Ter, 2009-07-07 às 13:49 +0200, Martín Soto escreveu: Also, future versions of X/Gnome wil automatically offer a configuration box as soon as you plug in a monitor. We can consider asking the user once at that point if this is a projector. The UI for doing this would have to be very well thought, but I guess this could work if done properly. I don't see how this guessing can be reliable. I usually use my laptop in an external monitor to save my back some pain, but I want my notifications in that case. A regular monitor and a video projector are different devices, and their EDID data [1] is likely to be different enough that we can indeed distinguish among them. EDID is not 100% foolproof however. Some devices report partially wrong data, for example. It can also happen that the EDID chip gets damaged and stops working at some point, even if the monitor continues to operate. But, all in all, this may be a workable solution. And the idea of asking always when you plug in an external monitor is a bad one. As I said I plug one everyday, I don't want to answer the same question everyday. However I give presentations once a month. It is much more reasonable to me to turn on the don't notify me mode at that moment. The system can remember devices you have used, based on their EDID data. If you always use the same (type of) device, you would only have to answer the question once. Also, if your projector has completely broken EDID, you'll have to think of disabling notifications every time you use it, anyway. Wouldn't it be better to be reminded of that when you plug it in? M. S. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_display_identification_data ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors
Martín Soto wrote: I will just refrain from falling into the Mark said type of argumentation (see /argumentum ad verecundiam [1]*)*/ I used it since i remember the users name , also.. you can note i used ScottK's name earlier , its not about authority , but just a valid point raised by a previous member. Just because Mark has said it, also doesnt mean he is wrong ;) This is just a particular example, but I would say *in most cases* people rehearse in front of their normal screen, but they present using a projector. If we can differentiate between those two cases, we'll have probably dealt with more than 90% of the practical situations. As I already said, and this is possibly the most important point, no solution will be 100% reliable, but this is no reason to discard it. People also present to a small group by just using the normal screen. I just felt too much thought is being put into this, this only leads to more bloat of the app... But if a highly intuitive simple system is to be designed , which is atleast 90% practical, I definitely welcome it :) cheers, mac_v ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors
Alex Launi wrote: If your car manufacturer provides *brakes*, but puts them somewhere inaccessible, where you can't get to them quickly in an emergency, it's a design flaw. I think the UX team can place the brakes perfectly in the right position ;) cheers, mac_v ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors
What about putting up a notification when someone goes into fullscreen mode that notifications are enabled and will be displayed, as a reminder that they might want to disable them? Mark signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors
This idea was brought by someone else on this list today and the problem is that a typical user goes fullscreen and back many many times even on a single day especially in and hence each time i watch a movie, or want firefox in fullscreen if i get a notification it is very much annoying. also after connecting my laptop to the projector and staring presentation if this notification does come up it is not a good thing. On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 9:10 PM, Mark Shuttleworth m...@ubuntu.com wrote: What about putting up a notification when someone goes into fullscreen mode that notifications are enabled and will be displayed, as a reminder that they might want to disable them? Mark ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors
Il 07/07/2009 17:40, Mark Shuttleworth ha scritto: What about putting up a notification when someone goes into fullscreen mode that notifications are enabled and will be displayed, as a reminder that they might want to disable them? This was just discussed in another thread, with he ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
Re: [Ayatana] notify-osd + fullscreen + multiple monitors
Op donderdag 04-06-2009 om 13:39 uur [tijdzone -0500], schreef David Siegel: * Firefox + firefox flash videos Not only with flash videos, on my EEE 900 or when I have to use an old PC with a low resolution screen, I use Firefox's full screen mode quite often while browsing. -- Jan Claeys ___ Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~ayatana Post to : ayatana@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~ayatana More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
