Re: [backstage] Joost anyone?

[Mario Menti]

On 1/16/07, Brian Butterworth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


I'm not after a review, I wish to use it!  The message I got when I signed
up was to ask someone else 'who has a token' to provide me with one.

And if you don't ask you don't get.


Brian Butterworth
www.ukfree.tv




Brian - let me know if you have received an invite off-list. If not, I can
send you one. (Before anyone else asks, I only have this one spare token at
the moment, but more may be forthcoming in future...)

Mario.

RE: [backstage] Joost anyone?

[Brian Butterworth]

I'm not after a review, I wish to use it!  The message I got when I signed
up was to ask someone else 'who has a token' to provide me with one.

And if you don't ask you don't get.


Brian Butterworth
www.ukfree.tv
 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tom Loosemore
> Sent: 16 January 2007 19:52
> To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> Subject: Re: [backstage] Joost anyone?
> 
> i think the ts and cs of the beta preclude me from even 
> telling you whether or not I'm on the beta!
> 
> (search for 'venice project' - plenty reviews out there)
> 
> On 16/01/07, Jeremy Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > yep its the brand name for (what was) The Venice Project.
> > http://www.joost.com/blog/
> > http://www.joost.com/FAQ.html
> >
> > Those invites are as rare as blue smarties though.
> >
> >
> > Jem
> >
> >
> >  
> >  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian 
> > Butterworth
> > Sent: 16 January 2007 17:02
> > To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> > Subject: [backstage] Joost anyone?
> >
> >
> >
> > Theres an article on the BBC News website about a product from the 
> > Skype people called Joost that is, I guess, a form of IPTV.
> >
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6266391.stm
> >
> > I've registered to test it, I was wondering if anyone has 
> already been 
> > accepted as a user and might be able to 'invite' me.
> >
> > Will it carry BBC channels?
> >
> >
> > Brian Butterworth
> > www.ukfree.tv
> >
> >
> > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.12/630 - Release Date: 
> > 15/01/2007
> > 20:28
> >
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To 
> unsubscribe, please visit 
> http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
>   Unofficial list archive: 
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> 
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> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.12/630 - Release 
> Date: 15/01/2007 20:28
>  
> 

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RE: [backstage] SVG used by Office of National Statistics in BBC business report

[Gordon Joly]

At 15:33 + 16/1/07, Simon Cobb wrote:
I feel obligated to do this DISCLAIMER: these are my views - I, not 
the bbc, should be held responsible for any buffoonery contained 
herein


more svg: 
http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/DRAWINGS/clock_plain.svg


but as a Flash developer my first reaction to any current svg 
content is "nice try, thanks for playing, we'll keep your details on 
file but really you need to come back when you're bigger and 
stronger"


That is an argument for Microsoft's domination of almost everything 
remaining the status quo.




but perhaps by then, Adobe may have open sourced Flash much as Sun 
have done with java freeing the pursuit of accessibility of the swf 
format to be driven by something other than market forces. A man can 
dream.


just my 2p


Maybe.

Gordo

--
"Think Feynman"/
http://pobox.com/~gordo/
[EMAIL PROTECTED]///
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Re: [backstage] SVG used by Office of National Statistics in BBC business report

[Jonathan Chetwynd]

Tom,

adobe Illustrator is well known for producing large file sizes,  
possibly slimly related to printing.


a literally blank document can be 460kb, don't ask, I just opened  
Illustrator and saved a blank document ~:"
be sure to untick all the SVG options and this can be reduced to 4kb,  
hint: tick for larger file size...
having said which it may be that few people would chose to use  
Illustrator out of choice for small file size map making.


http://www.statistics.gov.uk/census2001/censusmaps/mainmap.svgz is  
but one example at 112kb
quite possibly not what you had in mind, but this one has county  
boundaries for England

the file size could probably be halved if required.

cheers

Jonathan Chetwynd



On 16 Jan 2007, at 17:01, Tom Pearson wrote:

Hi,
Personal opinions etc...
Whilst I really like the idea of an open standard for vector graphics
over the web I don't think SVG is a contender (yet) for the following
reasons:
- The access problems Jason mentions, saying something's
accesible without reference to how many people are able to access it
/right now/ seems odd to me.
- The speed at which reasonably complex shapes can be animated
is painful slow (esp. compared to what you can do with Flash 9 and AS3).
- The real killer for me though is file size; the maps we use
for the  election coverage[1] are based on SVG files output from Adobe
Illustrator. An SVG file for the British Isles at the level of detail we
use is around 2 or 3 Mb. The Flash file which we produce from it, at
exactly the same detail level is closer to 100kb.

Oh, I think this is the first time I've posted here, so hello everyone!

Tom

[1]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/vote2005/flash_map/html/map05.stm


 -Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jason Cartwright
Sent: 16 January 2007 14:53
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: RE: [backstage] SVG used by Office of National Statistics in
BBC business report


Hi Jonathan,

** This is all my personal opinion **

But it isn't a tech demo is it? People (other than techies) are expect
to use it - its linked to from the homepage of a large government
website - hence it is inappropriate.


SVG standards are designed to be accessible


If an average sighted, average motor-skilled person such as myself can't
get it to load then I'd deem it as failing a pretty fundamental
accessiblity test.


Server-side scripting is notorious for creating accessibility

problems.

This is a massive generalisation. Pretty much every webpage on an
decent-sized website is generated by server-side code. Code doesn't
produce inaccessible websites, developers do.

J




From: Jonathan Chetwynd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 16 January 2007 14:24
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Cc: Jason Cartwright
Subject: Re: [backstage] SVG used by Office of National Statistics in
BBC business report


Jason,


surely no tech demo rubbish on backstage ~:"


you might try Opera, the results are instant and the interface
reasonable.
alternatively why not file a bug report?
the ff default small text is already reported by me:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=366539


SVG standards are designed to be accessible, the current implementations
aren't perfect.
whereas for instance there still isn't a single javascript dropdown menu
object that's accessible.
I should know, I wrote the W3C accessible client-side scripting
guidelines ~:"


Server-side scripting is notorious for creating accessibility problems.
Jonathan Hassell is the chap to speak to at the BBC


regards


Jonathan Chetwynd






On 16 Jan 2007, at 10:46, Jason Cartwright wrote:


** This is all my personal opinion **


ONS and BBC reckon the public is ready.


I don't see the BBC saying that. In fact the BBC News article disclaims
itself from the content of the page linked to... "The BBC is not
responsible for the content of external internet sites"

Personally, it looks pretty ridicuous to use SVG here. Well over 50%
(perhaps more than 60% or 70%) of the audience can't view the content -
including me with the latest version of IE7.

Even in FF2 I can't select the text in the textboxes, I can't put the
cursor in the textboxes anywhere other than at each end, its slow, quite
a bit of the text is unreadably small. Its painful.

Give me a Flash version or javascript version, falling back to doing the
processing serverside rather than this tech demo rubbish.

J




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan Chetwynd
Sent: 16 January 2007 09:43
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: [backstage] SVG used by Office of National Statistics in BBC
business report


Quite amazing!


All you backstage groupies can now start using SVG!
as ONS and BBC reckon the public is ready.


copied and edited from svg-developers@yahoogroups.com


This made yesterday's bbc business headlines so you might forgive them
to
not mention SVG but here is another statistics example that wor

Re: [backstage] Joost anyone?

[Tom Loosemore]

i think the ts and cs of the beta preclude me from even telling you
whether or not I'm on the beta!

(search for 'venice project' - plenty reviews out there)

On 16/01/07, Jeremy Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



yep its the brand name for (what was) The Venice Project.
http://www.joost.com/blog/
http://www.joost.com/FAQ.html

Those invites are as rare as blue smarties though.


Jem


 
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Butterworth
Sent: 16 January 2007 17:02
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: [backstage] Joost anyone?



Theres an article on the BBC News website about a product from the Skype
people called Joost that is, I guess, a form of IPTV.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6266391.stm

I've registered to test it, I was wondering if anyone has already been
accepted as a user and might be able to 'invite' me.

Will it carry BBC channels?


Brian Butterworth
www.ukfree.tv


Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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20:28


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RE: [backstage] What is web 1, 2, and 3?

[Ian Smith \(Irascian Ltd\)]

Yes I know I can turn it off. Give me SOME credit. But there are people who
I DO want to acknowledge emails from (not everything's spam!) because my
email can be flakey. And no, I don't want to automate acknowledgements
because then spammers get to know the email address they tried is real.

Admittedly this is a weakness of Outlook in that it's all or nothing, but I
just think it's bad manners to have this feature turned on when using a
distribution list. I've never come across it before and I'm on a LOT of
distribution lists.

No matter. I can always unsubscribe if it's too problematic.

Ian


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Josh at GoUK.com
Sent: 16 January 2007 10:15
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: RE: [backstage] What is web 1, 2, and 3?

That wasn't aimed at you, Brian - it was aimed at Ian. If he doesn't like
the tracking feature you use, he can turn it off at his end. Presume he
doesn't know this as he has asked you to make a change. Didn't mean to teach
anyone to suck eggs.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Brian Butterworth
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 10:02 AM
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: RE: [backstage] What is web 1, 2, and 3?

> FYI: you should be able to switch off such requests at your end.

OMG!  Never!

>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Ian
> Smith (Irascian
> Ltd)
> Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 7:04 PM
> To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> Subject: RE: [backstage] What is web 1, 2, and 3?
>
> Brian,
>
> Is there any chance you could turn off your email
> tracking/acknowledgement feature in Outlook or whatever it is
> you're using?
>
> It's irritating as hell to get endless "Do you want to send
> an acknowledgement?" prompts with each new email you send,
> immediately followed by the same again when I delete it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ian Smith
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian
> Butterworth
> Sent: 15 January 2007 18:38
> To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> Subject: RE: [backstage] What is web 1, 2, and 3?
>
> So now I know...
>
> http://support.bbc.co.uk/ogg/old.shtml
>
> http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=site%3Asupport.bbc.co.uk&meta=
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gordon Joly
> > Sent: 15 January 2007 16:03
> > To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> > Cc: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk; Jason Cartwright; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: RE: [backstage] What is web 1, 2, and 3?
> >
> > At 11:51 + 15/1/07, Jason Cartwright wrote:
> > >It did previously, but not anymore (to my knowledge).
> > >
> > >http://support.bbc.co.uk/ogg/
> > >
> > >J
> >
> > Thanks. I knew that, but wanted somebody else to remind me...
> >
> >
> > :-)
> >
> > Gordo
> >
> > --
> > "Think Feynman"/
> > http://pobox.com/~gordo/
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]///
> > -
> > Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe,
> > please visit
> > http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
> >   Unofficial list archive:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.10/626 - Release
> > Date: 14/01/2007 20:29
> >
> >
>
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> Date: 14/01/2007
> 20:29
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visit htt

Re: [backstage] Movies Data

[Adam Leach]

Hi,

This looks really useful.  One thing i've noticed is the film details 
don't have a link to the BBC Page, so there is no way of linking back to 
you easily. 

Are we allowed to link directly to the Movies Cinema search page from 
any pages created using these feeds?


Adam

Matt Chadburn wrote:

Hi,

Due in part to the new BBC Movies Interactive TV service that launched today
we've had the opportunity to tidy up and document the output of a few
systems that create the bbc.co.uk/movies site ...

 - http://www.bbc.co.uk/movies/syndication/1/docs/

The service includes a few handy RSS feeds ...
 
 * Weekly Cinema Reviews - Films out in UK cinemas this week.

* Coming Soon - Films out in UK cinemas in the next few weeks.
* Further Ahead - Approximate release dates for Films out in the next year

Along with various parts of the site in various flavours of XML ...
 
* Film Reviews - Official BBC Movies review. Contains cast, crew etc.

* User Rating - Star based user ratings.
* User Comments - User submitted mini-reviews and opinions.
* What's On - Films showing on the BBC this week

Would love to hear from anyone with interesting ideas on what they might do
with the information or any pointers on improvements we might make.

And for Red Button (DSat, Freeview, DCable) fans ...

"With BBC Movies, you can watch video interviews, reviews, special features
and trailers. Plus, you can access cinema listings for your area, win
prizes, add your own reviews, and generally keep up to date on all things
movies." - http://www.bbc.co.uk/films/bbci/

Thanks,
Matt - Interactive Drama & Entertainment



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[backstage] Movies Data

[Matt Chadburn]

Hi,

Due in part to the new BBC Movies Interactive TV service that launched today
we've had the opportunity to tidy up and document the output of a few
systems that create the bbc.co.uk/movies site ...

 - http://www.bbc.co.uk/movies/syndication/1/docs/

The service includes a few handy RSS feeds ...
 
 * Weekly Cinema Reviews - Films out in UK cinemas this week.
* Coming Soon - Films out in UK cinemas in the next few weeks.
* Further Ahead - Approximate release dates for Films out in the next year

Along with various parts of the site in various flavours of XML ...
 
* Film Reviews - Official BBC Movies review. Contains cast, crew etc.
* User Rating - Star based user ratings.
* User Comments - User submitted mini-reviews and opinions.
* What's On - Films showing on the BBC this week

Would love to hear from anyone with interesting ideas on what they might do
with the information or any pointers on improvements we might make.

And for Red Button (DSat, Freeview, DCable) fans ...

"With BBC Movies, you can watch video interviews, reviews, special features
and trailers. Plus, you can access cinema listings for your area, win
prizes, add your own reviews, and generally keep up to date on all things
movies." - http://www.bbc.co.uk/films/bbci/

Thanks,
Matt - Interactive Drama & Entertainment



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RE: [backstage] Joost anyone?

[Jeremy Stone]

yep its the brand name for (what was) The Venice Project.
http://www.joost.com/blog/
http://www.joost.com/FAQ.html
 
Those invites are as rare as blue smarties though.
 
 
Jem




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Butterworth
Sent: 16 January 2007 17:02
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: [backstage] Joost anyone?


Theres an article on the BBC News website about a product from
the Skype people called Joost that is, I guess, a form of IPTV.
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6266391.stm
 
I've registered to test it, I was wondering if anyone has
already been accepted as a user and might be able to 'invite' me.
 
Will it carry BBC channels?
 

Brian Butterworth
www.ukfree.tv  
 
 
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 


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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.12/630 - Release Date:
15/01/2007 20:28

Re: [backstage] SVG used by Office of National Statistics in BBC business report

[John Drinkwater]

Hi Tom,

On 16/01/07, Tom Pearson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi,
Personal opinions etc...
Whilst I really like the idea of an open standard for vector graphics
over the web I don't think SVG is a contender (yet) for the following
reasons:
- The access problems Jason mentions, saying something's
accesible without reference to how many people are able to access it
/right now/ seems odd to me.
- The speed at which reasonably complex shapes can be animated
is painful slow (esp. compared to what you can do with Flash 9 and AS3).


I think you'll find this is an implementation issue - Opera is far
quicker to render SVG than Firefox. So much that you wouldn't notice
it being SVG.
I presume that will change with Firefox 3 using cairo...


- The real killer for me though is file size; the maps we use
for the  election coverage[1] are based on SVG files output from Adobe
Illustrator. An SVG file for the British Isles at the level of detail we
use is around 2 or 3 Mb. The Flash file which we produce from it, at
exactly the same detail level is closer to 100kb.


There is a penatly for using XML, true. Have you tried to gzip your SVG files ?
Most browser clients can easily accept .svg.gz files just like a normal .svg
Otherwise, i'd still expect Flash to optimize that coast line.
I'd be interested to look at those SVG files btw, but I assume they're
OS copyrighted?


Oh, I think this is the first time I've posted here, so hello everyone!


Nice to meet you.


Tom

[1]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/vote2005/flash_map/html/map05.stm





--
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http://johndrinkwater.name/
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Re: [backstage] SVG used by Office of National Statistics in BBC business report

[John Drinkwater]

I completely forgot something, but since Tom mentioned it..
I too am new here, so Hey everyone!

On 16/01/07, Jason Cartwright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

** This is all my personal opinion **

> Technology can't hang around for the slow people to migrate, can it?

If you want people to use it (which the government should) then you
should cater for a low commmon denominator. Using your thinking people
should be broadcasting TV only in digital and turning off the analog
signal right?


Of course that will happen - some people with analog TVs *will* be
left behind. ( I can't get digital TV or Channel 5 via an aerial
myself because of my location and geography.
I purchase Sky. I dont agree with it, but I understand where things
are heading. But this is quite off-topic. ) If we catered to the
lowest common denominator, we'd still have fox-hunting, hanging, and
slavery ;)

People have had a few years to try the SVG plugins, or install a more
competent browser. It's not like it suddenly appeared. Now some sites
are saying "SVG is here, use it!" and you're alarmed? Maybe we need a
deadline for SVG acceptance much like the analog TV switchoff?



> more people have access to SVG in their browser than Flash

"access to" - a telling choice of words. People shouldn't have to
install a plugin - it should just work. Which it would have done for the
vast, vast majority if they had developed it with consideration for the
actual statistics of the audience.


Yes, I said "access to" to make a point. You're the person being given
a choice and choosing not to.
I don't have the luxury of choice (atm, Gnash is coming), yet you want
to block my use of the site with Flash because you're lazy?
Flash (v7?) didn't come with Windows, *you* had to install it for some
reason or other. What's the difference to this?



> (spoken from someone on 64bit linux and BeOS...)

Your in a minority - one that would have got the fall-back version if it
had been developed differently. The other 95%+ users would have got a
fully working version without any security error messages, downloads, or
installs.


I am. But why should I be a second class citizen?
Standards exist so everyone can enjoy things, a concept a few
companies don't understand.


> you can save the SVG to your desktop and work from 'home'

Work? It's an tiny little app that adds up some numbers! Its not like
they are doing anything particually complex that only SVG can do, right?


It was a suggestion about the completeness of that example, nothing more.
Server-side processing requires being online, whereas you can easily
load that SVG from cache/desktop and use it while offline.



John


--
John '[Beta]' Drinkwater
http://johndrinkwater.name/
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[backstage] Our Tom's 15 web principles for the BBC

[Brendan Quinn]

http://www.tomski.com/archive/new_archive/63.html

Not really news to you folks, this started off with the discussions Kim
kicked off here way back in July, but I think point 9 relates to current
discussions quite well...

Brendan :-)
--
Brendan Quinn | Technical Architect | bbc.co.uk
Broadcast Centre BC5 B6, Media Village, 201 Wood Lane London W12 7TP
[EMAIL PROTECTED] | +44 (0)20 800 85097 | +44 (0)7900 847 358

Re: [backstage] SVG used by Office of National Statistics in BBC business report

[John Drinkwater]

On 16/01/07, Andrew Bowden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> IMHO:
> Technology can't hang around for the slow people to migrate, can it?
> One has to accept that IE 7 users need to install a plugin or
> go without.

Flip side is, if the majority of your audience need to download a plugin
to view something... will they actually bother?  Or indeed can they
(think work PCs etc).


They might not, this time. The more SVGs are used, the more uptake it will have.
Anyhow, it seemed to happen quite easily for Flash :) but no one seems
to bring that up when they're debating the use of it?
I can't view Flash on this system, and regularly face pages without
fallback content. Not even a chance. Jason should feel lucky an SVG
plugin exists!


Like it or not, Internet Explorer users are a huge chunk of the browsers
out there - and how many have SVG?


Few, but whose fault is that ? And what can be done to remedy it?
Encouraging SVG use!


Have to say it was so painful for me on my creaky 3.5 year old work PC,
that I gave up after less than a minute.  SVG may be great.  But if it
doesn't work for me, I'm going to give up.  Hey, I'm lazy :)


Totally true - and I conceded that in my last point as a fallback
option - then again, it does something soo simple that a few
paragraphs of explanatory text and a pocket calculator could do. :)

John

--
John '[Beta]' Drinkwater
http://johndrinkwater.name/
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RE: [backstage] SVG used by Office of National Statistics in BBC business report

[Tom Pearson]

Hi,
Personal opinions etc...
Whilst I really like the idea of an open standard for vector graphics
over the web I don't think SVG is a contender (yet) for the following
reasons:
- The access problems Jason mentions, saying something's
accesible without reference to how many people are able to access it
/right now/ seems odd to me.
- The speed at which reasonably complex shapes can be animated
is painful slow (esp. compared to what you can do with Flash 9 and AS3).
- The real killer for me though is file size; the maps we use
for the  election coverage[1] are based on SVG files output from Adobe
Illustrator. An SVG file for the British Isles at the level of detail we
use is around 2 or 3 Mb. The Flash file which we produce from it, at
exactly the same detail level is closer to 100kb.

Oh, I think this is the first time I've posted here, so hello everyone!

Tom

[1]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/vote2005/flash_map/html/map05.stm

 
 -Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jason Cartwright
Sent: 16 January 2007 14:53
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: RE: [backstage] SVG used by Office of National Statistics in
BBC business report


Hi Jonathan,

** This is all my personal opinion **

But it isn't a tech demo is it? People (other than techies) are expect
to use it - its linked to from the homepage of a large government
website - hence it is inappropriate.

> SVG standards are designed to be accessible

If an average sighted, average motor-skilled person such as myself can't
get it to load then I'd deem it as failing a pretty fundamental
accessiblity test.

> Server-side scripting is notorious for creating accessibility
problems.

This is a massive generalisation. Pretty much every webpage on an
decent-sized website is generated by server-side code. Code doesn't
produce inaccessible websites, developers do.

J




From: Jonathan Chetwynd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 16 January 2007 14:24
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Cc: Jason Cartwright
Subject: Re: [backstage] SVG used by Office of National Statistics in
BBC business report


Jason, 


surely no tech demo rubbish on backstage ~:"


you might try Opera, the results are instant and the interface
reasonable.
alternatively why not file a bug report?
the ff default small text is already reported by me:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=366539


SVG standards are designed to be accessible, the current implementations
aren't perfect.
whereas for instance there still isn't a single javascript dropdown menu
object that's accessible.
I should know, I wrote the W3C accessible client-side scripting
guidelines ~:"


Server-side scripting is notorious for creating accessibility problems.
Jonathan Hassell is the chap to speak to at the BBC


regards


Jonathan Chetwynd






On 16 Jan 2007, at 10:46, Jason Cartwright wrote:


** This is all my personal opinion **

> ONS and BBC reckon the public is ready.

I don't see the BBC saying that. In fact the BBC News article disclaims
itself from the content of the page linked to... "The BBC is not
responsible for the content of external internet sites"

Personally, it looks pretty ridicuous to use SVG here. Well over 50%
(perhaps more than 60% or 70%) of the audience can't view the content -
including me with the latest version of IE7.

Even in FF2 I can't select the text in the textboxes, I can't put the
cursor in the textboxes anywhere other than at each end, its slow, quite
a bit of the text is unreadably small. Its painful.

Give me a Flash version or javascript version, falling back to doing the
processing serverside rather than this tech demo rubbish.

J




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan Chetwynd
Sent: 16 January 2007 09:43
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: [backstage] SVG used by Office of National Statistics in BBC
business report


Quite amazing!


All you backstage groupies can now start using SVG!
as ONS and BBC reckon the public is ready.


copied and edited from svg-developers@yahoogroups.com


This made yesterday's bbc business headlines so you might forgive them
to
not mention SVG but here is another statistics example that works
ASV3, FF, Opera ... 

The Office for National Statistics published an interactive
visualisation tool that lets you analyse your personal spending habits
with regard to the Retail Price Index ("inflation"). See more
information at
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pic/

or point your SVG enabled browser directly to
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/PIC/index.html

For feedback:
svg [at] ons.gov.uk

and btw the bbc link is
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6263571.stm 


cheers


Jonathan Chetwynd

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[backstage] Joost anyone?

[Brian Butterworth]

Theres an article on the BBC News website about a product from the Skype
people called Joost that is, I guess, a form of IPTV.
 
HYPERLINK
"http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6266391.stm"http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/h
i/technology/6266391.stm
 
I've registered to test it, I was wondering if anyone has already been
accepted as a user and might be able to 'invite' me.
 
Will it carry BBC channels?
 
Brian Butterworth
HYPERLINK "http://www.ukfree.tv/"www.ukfree.tv
 
 
Email: HYPERLINK "mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]"[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 

-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.12/630 - Release Date: 15/01/2007
20:28
 

RE: [backstage] SVG used by Office of National Statistics in BBC business report

[Jason Cartwright]

** This is all my personal opinion **

> Technology can't hang around for the slow people to migrate, can it?

If you want people to use it (which the government should) then you
should cater for a low commmon denominator. Using your thinking people
should be broadcasting TV only in digital and turning off the analog
signal right?

> more people have access to SVG in their browser than Flash 

"access to" - a telling choice of words. People shouldn't have to
install a plugin - it should just work. Which it would have done for the
vast, vast majority if they had developed it with consideration for the
actual statistics of the audience.

> (spoken from someone on 64bit linux and BeOS...)

Your in a minority - one that would have got the fall-back version if it
had been developed differently. The other 95%+ users would have got a
fully working version without any security error messages, downloads, or
installs.

> you can save the SVG to your desktop and work from 'home'

Work? It's an tiny little app that adds up some numbers! Its not like
they are doing anything particually complex that only SVG can do, right?

I found another bug BTW. Pressing backspace in a text box occasionally
takes FF2.0 back a page (like when you have nothing selected on an HTML
page, and you press backspace to go back).

SVG: 

J


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Drinkwater
Sent: 16 January 2007 15:39
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: Re: [backstage] SVG used by Office of National Statistics in
BBC business report

I'm very impressed that they've used SVG, and for some of the tutorial
animations on bbc.news.co.uk I wish they would do the same!

On 16/01/07, Jason Cartwright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ** This is all my personal opinion **
> Personally, it looks pretty ridicuous to use SVG here. Well over 50% 
> (perhaps more than 60% or 70%) of the audience can't view the content 
> - including me with the latest version of IE7.

IMHO:
Technology can't hang around for the slow people to migrate, can it?
One has to accept that IE 7 users need to install a plugin or go
without.

> Even in FF2 I can't select the text in the textboxes, I can't put the 
> cursor in the textboxes anywhere other than at each end, its slow, 
> quite a bit of the text is unreadably small. Its painful.

It's slow for me too, but I'm burning a DVDR and running BOINC in the
background...
it's perfectly readable though, very tidy.

> Give me a Flash version
A poor choice, more people have access to SVG in their browser than
Flash (spoken from someone on 64bit linux and BeOS...)

> or javascript version, falling back to doing the processing serverside

> rather than this tech demo rubbish.

As a fallback, it would've been a good idea - but they want to develop
once, and get everyone to use that version.
Plus serverside processing is a little pointless here - you can save the
SVG to your desktop and work from 'home' :)

Cheers,
  John

--
John '[Beta]' Drinkwater
http://johndrinkwater.name/
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RE: [backstage] SVG used by Office of National Statistics in BBC business report

[Andrew Bowden]

> IMHO:
> Technology can't hang around for the slow people to migrate, can it?
> One has to accept that IE 7 users need to install a plugin or 
> go without.

Flip side is, if the majority of your audience need to download a plugin
to view something... will they actually bother?  Or indeed can they
(think work PCs etc).

Like it or not, Internet Explorer users are a huge chunk of the browsers
out there - and how many have SVG?


That's not to say that no one should use new technology - just that the
developer need to be aware that just because they're moving quickly,
doesn't mean everyone else is!


> > Even in FF2 I can't select the text in the textboxes, I 
> > can't put the 
> > cursor in the textboxes anywhere other than at each end, its slow, 
> > quite a bit of the text is unreadably small. Its painful.
> It's slow for me too, but I'm burning a DVDR and running 
> BOINC in the background...
> it's perfectly readable though, very tidy.


Have to say it was so painful for me on my creaky 3.5 year old work PC,
that I gave up after less than a minute.  SVG may be great.  But if it
doesn't work for me, I'm going to give up.  Hey, I'm lazy :)


 

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RE: [backstage] SVG used by Office of National Statistics in BBC business report

[Jason Cartwright]

Hi Jonathan,
 
** This is all my personal opinion **
 
But it isn't a tech demo is it? People (other than techies) are expect
to use it - its linked to from the homepage of a large government
website - hence it is inappropriate.
 
> SVG standards are designed to be accessible
 
If an average sighted, average motor-skilled person such as myself can't
get it to load then I'd deem it as failing a pretty fundamental
accessiblity test.
 
> Server-side scripting is notorious for creating accessibility
problems.
 
This is a massive generalisation. Pretty much every webpage on an
decent-sized website is generated by server-side code. Code doesn't
produce inaccessible websites, developers do.
 
J



From: Jonathan Chetwynd [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 16 January 2007 14:24
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Cc: Jason Cartwright
Subject: Re: [backstage] SVG used by Office of National Statistics in
BBC business report


Jason, 

surely no tech demo rubbish on backstage ~:"

you might try Opera, the results are instant and the interface
reasonable.
alternatively why not file a bug report?
the ff default small text is already reported by me:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=366539

SVG standards are designed to be accessible, the current implementations
aren't perfect.
whereas for instance there still isn't a single javascript dropdown menu
object that's accessible.
I should know, I wrote the W3C accessible client-side scripting
guidelines ~:"

Server-side scripting is notorious for creating accessibility problems.
Jonathan Hassell is the chap to speak to at the BBC

regards

Jonathan Chetwynd



On 16 Jan 2007, at 10:46, Jason Cartwright wrote:

** This is all my personal opinion **
 
> ONS and BBC reckon the public is ready.
 
I don't see the BBC saying that. In fact the BBC News article disclaims
itself from the content of the page linked to... "The BBC is not
responsible for the content of external internet sites"
 
Personally, it looks pretty ridicuous to use SVG here. Well over 50%
(perhaps more than 60% or 70%) of the audience can't view the content -
including me with the latest version of IE7.

Even in FF2 I can't select the text in the textboxes, I can't put the
cursor in the textboxes anywhere other than at each end, its slow, quite
a bit of the text is unreadably small. Its painful.
 
Give me a Flash version or javascript version, falling back to doing the
processing serverside rather than this tech demo rubbish.
 
J



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan Chetwynd
Sent: 16 January 2007 09:43
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: [backstage] SVG used by Office of National Statistics in BBC
business report


Quite amazing!

All you backstage groupies can now start using SVG!
as ONS and BBC reckon the public is ready.

copied and edited from svg-developers@yahoogroups.com

This made yesterday's bbc business headlines so you might forgive them
to
not mention SVG but here is another statistics example that works
ASV3, FF, Opera ... 

The Office for National Statistics published an interactive
visualisation tool that lets you analyse your personal spending habits
with regard to the Retail Price Index ("inflation"). See more
information at
http://www.statisti  cs.gov.uk/pic/

or point your SVG enabled browser directly to
http://www.statisti 
cs.gov.uk/PIC/index.html

For feedback:
svg [at] ons.gov.uk

and btw the bbc link is
http://news. 
bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6263571.stm 


cheers


Jonathan Chetwynd

Re: [backstage] SVG used by Office of National Statistics in BBC business report

[John Drinkwater]

I'm very impressed that they've used SVG, and for some of the tutorial
animations on bbc.news.co.uk I wish they would do the same!

On 16/01/07, Jason Cartwright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

** This is all my personal opinion **
Personally, it looks pretty ridicuous to use SVG here. Well over 50%
(perhaps more than 60% or 70%) of the audience can't view the content -
including me with the latest version of IE7.


IMHO:
Technology can't hang around for the slow people to migrate, can it?
One has to accept that IE 7 users need to install a plugin or go
without.


Even in FF2 I can't select the text in the textboxes, I can't put the cursor
in the textboxes anywhere other than at each end, its slow, quite a bit of
the text is unreadably small. Its painful.


It's slow for me too, but I'm burning a DVDR and running BOINC in the
background...
it's perfectly readable though, very tidy.


Give me a Flash version

A poor choice, more people have access to SVG in their browser than
Flash (spoken from someone on 64bit linux and BeOS...)


or javascript version, falling back to doing the
processing serverside rather than this tech demo rubbish.


As a fallback, it would've been a good idea - but they want to develop
once, and get everyone to use that version.
Plus serverside processing is a little pointless here - you can save
the SVG to your desktop and work from 'home' :)

Cheers,
 John

--
John '[Beta]' Drinkwater
http://johndrinkwater.name/
-
Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please 
visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.  
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RE: [backstage] SVG used by Office of National Statistics in BBC business report

[Simon Cobb]

I feel obligated to do this DISCLAIMER: these are my views - I, not the
bbc, should be held responsible for any buffoonery contained herein
 
more svg: http://tavmjong.free.fr/INKSCAPE/DRAWINGS/clock_plain.svg
 
but as a Flash developer my first reaction to any current svg content is
"nice try, thanks for playing, we'll keep your details on file but
really you need to come back when you're bigger and stronger"
 
but perhaps by then, Adobe may have open sourced Flash much as Sun have
done with java freeing the pursuit of accessibility of the swf format to
be driven by something other than market forces. A man can dream.
 
just my 2p



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan Chetwynd
Sent: 16 January 2007 14:24
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Cc: Jason Cartwright
Subject: Re: [backstage] SVG used by Office of National Statistics in
BBC business report


Jason, 

surely no tech demo rubbish on backstage ~:"

you might try Opera, the results are instant and the interface
reasonable.
alternatively why not file a bug report?
the ff default small text is already reported by me:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=366539

SVG standards are designed to be accessible, the current implementations
aren't perfect.
whereas for instance there still isn't a single javascript dropdown menu
object that's accessible.
I should know, I wrote the W3C accessible client-side scripting
guidelines ~:"

Server-side scripting is notorious for creating accessibility problems.
Jonathan Hassell is the chap to speak to at the BBC

regards

Jonathan Chetwynd



On 16 Jan 2007, at 10:46, Jason Cartwright wrote:

** This is all my personal opinion **
 
> ONS and BBC reckon the public is ready.
 
I don't see the BBC saying that. In fact the BBC News article disclaims
itself from the content of the page linked to... "The BBC is not
responsible for the content of external internet sites"
 
Personally, it looks pretty ridicuous to use SVG here. Well over 50%
(perhaps more than 60% or 70%) of the audience can't view the content -
including me with the latest version of IE7.

Even in FF2 I can't select the text in the textboxes, I can't put the
cursor in the textboxes anywhere other than at each end, its slow, quite
a bit of the text is unreadably small. Its painful.
 
Give me a Flash version or javascript version, falling back to doing the
processing serverside rather than this tech demo rubbish.
 
J



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan Chetwynd
Sent: 16 January 2007 09:43
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: [backstage] SVG used by Office of National Statistics in BBC
business report


Quite amazing!

All you backstage groupies can now start using SVG!
as ONS and BBC reckon the public is ready.

copied and edited from svg-developers@yahoogroups.com

This made yesterday's bbc business headlines so you might forgive them
to
not mention SVG but here is another statistics example that works
ASV3, FF, Opera ... 

The Office for National Statistics published an interactive
visualisation tool that lets you analyse your personal spending habits
with regard to the Retail Price Index ("inflation"). See more
information at
http://www.statisti  cs.gov.uk/pic/

or point your SVG enabled browser directly to
http://www.statisti 
cs.gov.uk/PIC/index.html

For feedback:
svg [at] ons.gov.uk

and btw the bbc link is
http://news. 
bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6263571.stm 


cheers


Jonathan Chetwynd

RE: [backstage] Five Live Partnership - get your idea commissioned.

[Brian Butterworth]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kirk Northrop
> Sent: 16 January 2007 13:11
> To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> Subject: Re: [backstage] Five Live Partnership - get your 
> idea commissioned.
> 
> Brian Butterworth wrote:
> > Each line  of teletext is broadcast on a line of the TV screen. 
> 
> Do you mean magazine?

No, I mean line.  Each line can contain a line (or a header row) from any
magazine.  

> 
> --
>  From the North, this is Kirk
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To 
> unsubscribe, please visit 
> http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
>   Unofficial list archive: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
> 
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.12/630 - Release 
> Date: 15/01/2007 20:28
>  
> 

-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.12/630 - Release Date: 15/01/2007
20:28
 

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RE: [backstage] Five Live Partnership - get your

[Andrew Bowden]

> How about using page numbers with one and two digits as 'short codes'.
> Unlike Ceefax where you have to enter a three digit number, 
> you have to press SELECT after entering the number on the 
> digital text services. Am I having a PRESTEL flashback here?
> You could introduce a 'short code' system, so '11' could be 
> 'my regional news', '13' for 'my regional sport' and '14' for 
> 'my regional weather' and so on, or simply '10' being 'my 
> regional index' with links to the news, sport, weather and travel.  

Two and one digit numbers is something we thought about initially, but
decided against at the time.  Don't think anyone's looked at it since.
 
> > Incidentally the reason why 1670 is the South West regional news is 
> > because, three years ago, I sat in an empty meeting room and 
> > aribitarily determined numbers for each region based on the then 
> > ordering of the regions of the Regional News page (160).  
> > Scotland was 
> > the top so it got 1605, South West England was at the 
> > bottom so 1670.  
> > Actually South West is still at the bottom, however the 
> > rest seem to 
> > have been re-organised rather randomly.
> I don't think I have seen these regional page shortcode 
> before?  Are they on Freeview or satellite?

Both - been there since 2004.  :o)

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Re: [backstage] SVG used by Office of National Statistics in BBC business report

[Jonathan Chetwynd]

Jason,

surely no tech demo rubbish on backstage ~:"

you might try Opera, the results are instant and the interface  
reasonable.

alternatively why not file a bug report?
the ff default small text is already reported by me: https:// 
bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=366539


SVG standards are designed to be accessible, the current  
implementations aren't perfect.
whereas for instance there still isn't a single javascript dropdown  
menu object that's accessible.
I should know, I wrote the W3C accessible client-side scripting  
guidelines ~:"


Server-side scripting is notorious for creating accessibility problems.
Jonathan Hassell is the chap to speak to at the BBC

regards

Jonathan Chetwynd



On 16 Jan 2007, at 10:46, Jason Cartwright wrote:

** This is all my personal opinion **

> ONS and BBC reckon the public is ready.

I don't see the BBC saying that. In fact the BBC News article  
disclaims itself from the content of the page linked to... "The BBC  
is not responsible for the content of external internet sites"


Personally, it looks pretty ridicuous to use SVG here. Well over 50%  
(perhaps more than 60% or 70%) of the audience can't view the content  
- including me with the latest version of IE7.


Even in FF2 I can't select the text in the textboxes, I can't put the  
cursor in the textboxes anywhere other than at each end, its slow,  
quite a bit of the text is unreadably small. Its painful.


Give me a Flash version or javascript version, falling back to doing  
the processing serverside rather than this tech demo rubbish.


J

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:owner- 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan Chetwynd

Sent: 16 January 2007 09:43
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: [backstage] SVG used by Office of National Statistics in BBC  
business report


Quite amazing!

All you backstage groupies can now start using SVG!
as ONS and BBC reckon the public is ready.

copied and edited from svg-developers@yahoogroups.com

This made yesterday's bbc business headlines so you might forgive  
them to

not mention SVG but here is another statistics example that works
ASV3, FF, Opera ...

The Office for National Statistics published an interactive
visualisation tool that lets you analyse your personal spending habits
with regard to the Retail Price Index ("inflation"). See more
information at
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pic/

or point your SVG enabled browser directly to
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/PIC/index.html

For feedback:
svg [at] ons.gov.uk

and btw the bbc link is
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6263571.stm

cheers

Jonathan Chetwynd

Re: [backstage] Five Live Partnership - get your idea commissioned.

[Kirk Northrop]

Brian Butterworth wrote:
Each line  of teletext is broadcast on a line of the TV screen. 


Do you mean magazine?

--
From the North, this is Kirk
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RE: [backstage] Five Live Partnership - get your

[Brian Butterworth]

> > I have to agree.  Being alphabetically at the end of the list it is
> really, really, 
> > annoying getting to 'my  region' as it takes so many button presses.
>  
> Someone always has to be last I'm afraid!  That's part of the 
> reason why page numbers were introduced (after an admittedly 
> long wait) - trawling through long menus can be a pain in the 
> neck.  Far easier to bung a quick number in.

> 
> > The TV for BBCone is regionalized on Freeview and DSat, IMHO this
> should 
> > be recognised and there should be a shortcut to 'this region' on
> BBCone (and 
> > if you can detect the BBCone region setting on the other channels
> too).
>  
> It's certainly technically feasible on BBC One on satellite, 
> although we'd need to do a small amount of work for cable and 
> Freeview - people may have heard of the Local TV trial which 
> ran in the West Midlands last year.  For that we put up a 
> special "Local TV" link on BBC One in the West Midlands.

Yes, I did see that.

 
> One of the problems now with providing a single quick link is 
> that there isn't really that regional portal at this time - 
> regional content is split across the service (News, Sport, 
> Weather, Travel and Cinema Listings).  The idea behind Local 
> TV is that it would bring together most of that in a single 
> place per region, complete with video content - all of course 
> subject to license fee funding and a Public Value Test.  

How about using page numbers with one and two digits as 'short codes'.
Unlike Ceefax where you have to enter a three digit number, you have to
press SELECT after entering the number on the digital text services. Am I
having a PRESTEL flashback here?

You could introduce a 'short code' system, so '11' could be 'my regional
news', '13' for 'my regional sport' and '14' for 'my regional weather' and
so on, or simply '10' being 'my regional index' with links to the news,
sport, weather and travel.  

> Incidentally the reason why 1670 is the South West regional 
> news is because, three years ago, I sat in an empty meeting 
> room and aribitarily determined numbers for each region based 
> on the then ordering of the regions of the Regional News page 
> (160).  Scotland was the top so it got 1605, South West 
> England was at the bottom so 1670.  Actually South West is 
> still at the bottom, however the rest seem to have been 
> re-organised rather randomly.

I don't think I have seen these regional page shortcode before?  Are they on
Freeview or satellite?

> To make up for slightly random assignments, I do try to keep 
> the same two last numbers for all regional content in 
> different areas.  Hence regional sport for the South West is 
> 3970, and Cinema Listings for the same area can be found on 6170.

Having more than one index should be no problem to implement, because,
unlike Ceefax, you can have dynamic menus.  So you could have 9061 being the
first regional index 9070 as the last so you can browse by subject
(news->regional news->myregion) or by region (myregionpage->news).  As long
as pressing BACK takes you back the way you came there would be no
confusion. 

-- 
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.12/630 - Release Date: 15/01/2007
20:28
 

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Re: [backstage] What is web 1, 2, and 3?

[Matthew Somerville]

Brian Butterworth wrote:

The feature isn't an Outlook one either, it's in RFC822 which defines the
message format that Internet email message use, which is dated August 13,
1982 which means that it's been around for 24 years, 6 months.   Plenty of
time for programmers to have implemented it I think!


Umm, could you specify a reference more precisely? Only my copy of RFC822 
doesn't appear to contain anything about receipts/message notifications. In 
fact, RFC1855 (October 1995, only informational) gives the following: 
"Delivery receipts, non-delivery notices, and vacation programs are neither 
totally standardized nor totally reliable across the range of systems 
connected to Internet mail.  They are invasive when sent to mailing lists, 
and some people consider delivery receipts an invasion of privacy.  In 
short, do not use them."


It's not until RFC2298 (March 1998) that actually defines a way "to report 
the disposition of a message after it has been sucessfully delivered to a 
recipient". I obviously have no idea if Outlook's method uses the standard 
or not. ;-)

--
ATB,
Matthew  |  http://www.dracos.co.uk/

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RE: [backstage] SVG used by Office of National Statistics in BBC business report

[Jason Cartwright]

** This is all my personal opinion **
 
> ONS and BBC reckon the public is ready.
 
I don't see the BBC saying that. In fact the BBC News article disclaims
itself from the content of the page linked to... "The BBC is not
responsible for the content of external internet sites"
 
Personally, it looks pretty ridicuous to use SVG here. Well over 50%
(perhaps more than 60% or 70%) of the audience can't view the content -
including me with the latest version of IE7.

Even in FF2 I can't select the text in the textboxes, I can't put the
cursor in the textboxes anywhere other than at each end, its slow, quite
a bit of the text is unreadably small. Its painful.
 
Give me a Flash version or javascript version, falling back to doing the
processing serverside rather than this tech demo rubbish.
 
J



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jonathan Chetwynd
Sent: 16 January 2007 09:43
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: [backstage] SVG used by Office of National Statistics in BBC
business report


Quite amazing!

All you backstage groupies can now start using SVG!
as ONS and BBC reckon the public is ready.

copied and edited from svg-developers@yahoogroups.com

This made yesterday's bbc business headlines so you might forgive them
to
not mention SVG but here is another statistics example that works
ASV3, FF, Opera ... 

The Office for National Statistics published an interactive
visualisation tool that lets you analyse your personal spending habits
with regard to the Retail Price Index ("inflation"). See more
information at
http://www.statisti  cs.gov.uk/pic/

or point your SVG enabled browser directly to
http://www.statisti 
cs.gov.uk/PIC/index.html

For feedback:
svg [at] ons.gov.uk

and btw the bbc link is
http://news. 
bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6263571.stm 


cheers


Jonathan Chetwynd

RE: [backstage] What is web 1, 2, and 3?

[Brian Butterworth]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Josh at GoUK.com
> Sent: 16 January 2007 10:15
> To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> Subject: RE: [backstage] What is web 1, 2, and 3?
> 
> That wasn't aimed at you, Brian - it was aimed at Ian. If he 
> doesn't like the tracking feature you use, he can turn it off 
> at his end. Presume he doesn't know this as he has asked you 
> to make a change. Didn't mean to teach anyone to suck eggs.

Sorry, I shouldn't have taken it so badly.

The feature isn't an Outlook one either, it's in RFC822 which defines the
message format that Internet email message use, which is dated August 13,
1982 which means that it's been around for 24 years, 6 months.   Plenty of
time for programmers to have implemented it I think!


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Brian Butterworth
> Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 10:02 AM
> To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> Subject: RE: [backstage] What is web 1, 2, and 3?
> 
> > FYI: you should be able to switch off such requests at your end.
> 
> OMG!  Never!
> 
> >
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Ian Smith 
> > (Irascian
> > Ltd)
> > Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 7:04 PM
> > To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> > Subject: RE: [backstage] What is web 1, 2, and 3?
> >
> > Brian,
> >
> > Is there any chance you could turn off your email 
> > tracking/acknowledgement feature in Outlook or whatever it 
> is you're 
> > using?
> >
> > It's irritating as hell to get endless "Do you want to send an 
> > acknowledgement?" prompts with each new email you send, immediately 
> > followed by the same again when I delete it.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Ian Smith
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian 
> > Butterworth
> > Sent: 15 January 2007 18:38
> > To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> > Subject: RE: [backstage] What is web 1, 2, and 3?
> >
> > So now I know...
> >
> > http://support.bbc.co.uk/ogg/old.shtml
> >
> > 
> http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=site%3Asupport.bbc.co.uk&meta=
> >
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gordon Joly
> > > Sent: 15 January 2007 16:03
> > > To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> > > Cc: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk; Jason Cartwright; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: RE: [backstage] What is web 1, 2, and 3?
> > >
> > > At 11:51 + 15/1/07, Jason Cartwright wrote:
> > > >It did previously, but not anymore (to my knowledge).
> > > >
> > > >http://support.bbc.co.uk/ogg/
> > > >
> > > >J
> > >
> > > Thanks. I knew that, but wanted somebody else to remind me...
> > >
> > >
> > > :-)
> > >
> > > Gordo
> > >
> > > --
> > > "Think Feynman"/
> > > http://pobox.com/~gordo/
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]///
> > > -
> > > Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To 
> unsubscribe, 
> > > please visit 
> > > http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
> > >   Unofficial list archive:
> > > http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
> > >
> > > --
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.10/626 - Release
> > > Date: 14/01/2007 20:29
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.10/626 - Release
> > Date: 14/01/2007
> > 20:29
> >
> >
> > -
> > Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, 
> > please visit 
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> >
> >
> >
> > -
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> > please visit 
> > http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
> > Unofficial list archive:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
> >
> > -
> > Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, 
> > please visit 
> > http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
> >   Unofficial list archive:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.12/630 - Release
> > Date: 15/01/2007 20:28
> >
> >
> 
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.12/630 - Release 
> Date: 15/01/2007
> 20:28
> 
> 
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To 
> unsubscribe, please visit 
> http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
> Unofficial list archive:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
> 
> -
> Sent via the bac

RE: [backstage] Five Live Partnership - get your

[Andrew Bowden]

> I have to agree.  Being alphabetically at the end of the list it is
really, really, 
> annoying getting to 'my  region' as it takes so many button presses.
 
Someone always has to be last I'm afraid!  That's part of the reason why
page numbers were introduced (after an admittedly long wait) - trawling
through long menus can be a pain in the neck.  Far easier to bung a
quick number in.

> The TV for BBCone is regionalized on Freeview and DSat, IMHO this
should 
> be recognised and there should be a shortcut to 'this region' on
BBCone (and 
> if you can detect the BBCone region setting on the other channels
too).
 
It's certainly technically feasible on BBC One on satellite, although
we'd need to do a small amount of work for cable and Freeview - people
may have heard of the Local TV trial which ran in the West Midlands last
year.  For that we put up a special "Local TV" link on BBC One in the
West Midlands.

One of the problems now with providing a single quick link is that there
isn't really that regional portal at this time - regional content is
split across the service (News, Sport, Weather, Travel and Cinema
Listings).  The idea behind Local TV is that it would bring together
most of that in a single place per region, complete with video content -
all of course subject to license fee funding and a Public Value Test.  



Incidentally the reason why 1670 is the South West regional news is
because, three years ago, I sat in an empty meeting room and aribitarily
determined numbers for each region based on the then ordering of the
regions of the Regional News page (160).  Scotland was the top so it got
1605, South West England was at the bottom so 1670.  Actually South West
is still at the bottom, however the rest seem to have been re-organised
rather randomly.

To make up for slightly random assignments, I do try to keep the same
two last numbers for all regional content in different areas.  Hence
regional sport for the South West is 3970, and Cinema Listings for the
same area can be found on 6170.


-
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visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.  
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Re: [backstage] SVG used by Office of National Statistics in BBC business report

[Allan Jardine]

The Office for National Statistics published an interactive  
visualisation tool that lets you analyse your personal spending  
habits with regard to the Retail Price Index ("inflation"). See  
more information at http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pic/


or point your SVG enabled browser directly to http:// 
www.statistics.gov.uk/PIC/index.html



Fantastic news. It appears that SVG is starting to finally gain a bit  
of traction from a few developers. Now that Opera have fairly good  
support, and Firefox reasonable support I hope to see a lot more  
applications going this way.


When the three second tier browsers (in terms of market share...)  
have declarative animation support (I believe opera already does) and  
foreignObject support, then I'll be targeting them like a mad man.


For interests sake the spending tool almost works in Safari nightlys.  
It just doesn't allow the input text to be modified (it only has  
partial support for  elements).


Great stuff! Thanks for the link!
Allan

RE: [backstage] What is web 1, 2, and 3?

[Josh at GoUK.com]

That wasn't aimed at you, Brian - it was aimed at Ian. If he doesn't like
the tracking feature you use, he can turn it off at his end. Presume he
doesn't know this as he has asked you to make a change. Didn't mean to teach
anyone to suck eggs.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Brian Butterworth
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 10:02 AM
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: RE: [backstage] What is web 1, 2, and 3?

> FYI: you should be able to switch off such requests at your end.

OMG!  Never!

>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Ian
> Smith (Irascian
> Ltd)
> Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 7:04 PM
> To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> Subject: RE: [backstage] What is web 1, 2, and 3?
>
> Brian,
>
> Is there any chance you could turn off your email
> tracking/acknowledgement feature in Outlook or whatever it is
> you're using?
>
> It's irritating as hell to get endless "Do you want to send
> an acknowledgement?" prompts with each new email you send,
> immediately followed by the same again when I delete it.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ian Smith
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian
> Butterworth
> Sent: 15 January 2007 18:38
> To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> Subject: RE: [backstage] What is web 1, 2, and 3?
>
> So now I know...
>
> http://support.bbc.co.uk/ogg/old.shtml
>
> http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=site%3Asupport.bbc.co.uk&meta=
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gordon Joly
> > Sent: 15 January 2007 16:03
> > To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> > Cc: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk; Jason Cartwright; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: RE: [backstage] What is web 1, 2, and 3?
> >
> > At 11:51 + 15/1/07, Jason Cartwright wrote:
> > >It did previously, but not anymore (to my knowledge).
> > >
> > >http://support.bbc.co.uk/ogg/
> > >
> > >J
> >
> > Thanks. I knew that, but wanted somebody else to remind me...
> >
> >
> > :-)
> >
> > Gordo
> >
> > --
> > "Think Feynman"/
> > http://pobox.com/~gordo/
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]///
> > -
> > Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe,
> > please visit
> > http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
> >   Unofficial list archive:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.10/626 - Release
> > Date: 14/01/2007 20:29
> >
> >
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.10/626 - Release
> Date: 14/01/2007
> 20:29
>
>
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To
> unsubscribe, please visit
> http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
> Unofficial list archive:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
>
>
>
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To
> unsubscribe, please visit
> http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
> Unofficial list archive:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
>
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To
> unsubscribe, please visit
> http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
>   Unofficial list archive:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.12/630 - Release
> Date: 15/01/2007 20:28
>
>

--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.12/630 - Release Date: 15/01/2007
20:28


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RE: [backstage] What is web 1, 2, and 3?

[Brian Butterworth]

> FYI: you should be able to switch off such requests at your end.

OMG!  Never!

> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Ian 
> Smith (Irascian
> Ltd)
> Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 7:04 PM
> To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> Subject: RE: [backstage] What is web 1, 2, and 3?
> 
> Brian,
> 
> Is there any chance you could turn off your email 
> tracking/acknowledgement feature in Outlook or whatever it is 
> you're using?
> 
> It's irritating as hell to get endless "Do you want to send 
> an acknowledgement?" prompts with each new email you send, 
> immediately followed by the same again when I delete it.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Ian Smith
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian 
> Butterworth
> Sent: 15 January 2007 18:38
> To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> Subject: RE: [backstage] What is web 1, 2, and 3?
> 
> So now I know...
> 
> http://support.bbc.co.uk/ogg/old.shtml
> 
> http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=site%3Asupport.bbc.co.uk&meta=
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gordon Joly
> > Sent: 15 January 2007 16:03
> > To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> > Cc: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk; Jason Cartwright; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: RE: [backstage] What is web 1, 2, and 3?
> >
> > At 11:51 + 15/1/07, Jason Cartwright wrote:
> > >It did previously, but not anymore (to my knowledge).
> > >
> > >http://support.bbc.co.uk/ogg/
> > >
> > >J
> >
> > Thanks. I knew that, but wanted somebody else to remind me...
> >
> >
> > :-)
> >
> > Gordo
> >
> > --
> > "Think Feynman"/
> > http://pobox.com/~gordo/
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]///
> > -
> > Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, 
> > please visit 
> > http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
> >   Unofficial list archive:
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.10/626 - Release
> > Date: 14/01/2007 20:29
> >
> >
> 
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.10/626 - Release 
> Date: 14/01/2007
> 20:29
> 
> 
> -
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RE: [backstage] Five Live Partnership - get your

[Brian Butterworth]

I have to agree.  Being alphabetically at the end of the list it is really,
really, annoying getting to 'my region' as it takes so many button presses.
 
Also, if I want to find what's happened in Brighton, which is covered by
South and South East I have to read both sections to find out if there is
any news.
 
The TV for BBCone is regionalized on Freeview and DSat, IMHO this should be
recognised and there should be a shortcut to 'this region' on BBCone (and if
you can detect the BBCone region setting on the other channels too).
 
Brian Butterworth
HYPERLINK "http://www.ukfree.tv/"www.ukfree.tv
 


   _  

It's also
one reason why BBCi doesn't assign page numbers to individual stories
(there are other, more boring reasons as well!)
 
Please do!  I find this really interesting,  for example News South West is
1670. what happens when we get the interactive streaming of Local TV?



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[backstage] SVG used by Office of National Statistics in BBC business report

[Jonathan Chetwynd]

Quite amazing!

All you backstage groupies can now start using SVG!
as ONS and BBC reckon the public is ready.

copied and edited from svg-developers@yahoogroups.com

This made yesterday's bbc business headlines so you might forgive  
them to

not mention SVG but here is another statistics example that works
ASV3, FF, Opera ...

The Office for National Statistics published an interactive
visualisation tool that lets you analyse your personal spending habits
with regard to the Retail Price Index ("inflation"). See more
information at
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/pic/

or point your SVG enabled browser directly to
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/PIC/index.html

For feedback:
svg [at] ons.gov.uk

and btw the bbc link is
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6263571.stm

cheers

Jonathan Chetwynd

RE: [backstage] What is web 1, 2, and 3?

[Josh at GoUK.com]

FYI: you should be able to switch off such requests at your end.


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Ian Smith (Irascian
Ltd)
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 7:04 PM
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: RE: [backstage] What is web 1, 2, and 3?

Brian,

Is there any chance you could turn off your email tracking/acknowledgement
feature in Outlook or whatever it is you're using?

It's irritating as hell to get endless "Do you want to send an
acknowledgement?" prompts with each new email you send, immediately followed
by the same again when I delete it.

Thanks,

Ian Smith

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Butterworth
Sent: 15 January 2007 18:38
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: RE: [backstage] What is web 1, 2, and 3?

So now I know...

http://support.bbc.co.uk/ogg/old.shtml

http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=site%3Asupport.bbc.co.uk&meta=


> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gordon Joly
> Sent: 15 January 2007 16:03
> To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> Cc: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk; Jason Cartwright; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: [backstage] What is web 1, 2, and 3?
>
> At 11:51 + 15/1/07, Jason Cartwright wrote:
> >It did previously, but not anymore (to my knowledge).
> >
> >http://support.bbc.co.uk/ogg/
> >
> >J
>
> Thanks. I knew that, but wanted somebody else to remind me...
>
>
> :-)
>
> Gordo
>
> --
> "Think Feynman"/
> http://pobox.com/~gordo/
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]///
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> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.10/626 - Release
> Date: 14/01/2007 20:29
>
>

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