RE: [backstage] HD-DVD / Blu Ray
All of this is true enough, but (and there's always a but) you still have the physical artefact, don't you? Even if it's gaffer taped with a hundred others, you still have the physical object you shelled out your money for. The digital stuff is, by your own admission, descended from the objects. Brands may be virtual but I for one prefer to buy the disc. Why? Because there's something tangible to show for the transaction after completion, not something ephemeral that is rather difficult to pin down. There is something that is identifiable as being of worth. That's not to say I don't buy the ephemeral stuff - I have purchased stuff on my iPod - but I am certainly more cautious about buying items that way. How unusual I am I can't say. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Butterworth Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 7:08 PM To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] HD-DVD / Blu Ray On 20/02/2008, Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know guys, it may have been said multiple times but the only winner in this battle must be the online services. However I'm still left wondering when the general public will get their head around non-physical media. People seem to like the look and feel of physical media like CDs, Vinyl, DVDs. I was talking to Dave about this in Edinburgh. The thing is, the current evidence suggests that this might be a false assumption. From a physiological point of view, lots of marketing efforts does indeed go into selling things to people. However, the modern liberal international capitalist system puts a lot of effort into promoting brands, which a not things, but virtual. It is quite a logical step to say that brands therefore exist in cyberspace. They have value only as something that is possessed by a company that hey can use. I've got three enormous boxes that I have all my CDs in. I gaffer taped them up when I finished MP3ing them, which was years ago now. How many times have I unpacked them? None. I've got a Vista Media Center with all my music on it, and I can copy and play this (using www.orb.com) anywhere. It's connected to the TV and has a remote control, and does my videos and all my thousands of photos. I can access all this lot from where ever with one remote control. I'm not alone. Everyone with an MP3 player (say an iPod) can carry around an amount of music you couldn't carry around in a transit van if it were on vinyl. Look, I'm such a nerd that I bought all of Star Trek (not Enterprise, obviously but with the Cartoons), Doctor Who and Blake's Seven on VHS and they took up the whole damn loft! Now I can have it all on a box smaller than half a VHS cassette. And if that's not enough. To quote from Down The Line, What is point DVD? The weirdest exam result (was the A) I got for an AO Level in Science in Society, so I've known about the idea of peak oil and climate change for ages. I recon that if we are going to run out of the oil and stop killing the planet, then the easiest thing for people to give up is buying data stamped onto heavy plastic carted around by lorry. It's just so unnecessary! If you are investing, invest in fat datapipes not past-it plastic. http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/feb/19/musicnews.netmusic?gusrc= rssfeed=technology Cheers zIan Forrester This e-mail is: [x] private; [] ask first; [] bloggable Senior Producer, BBC Backstage BC5 C3, Media Village, 201 Wood Lane, London W12 7TP email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] work: +44 (0)2080083965 mob: +44 (0)7711913293 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Woodhouse Sent: 20 February 2008 13:31 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: RE: [backstage] HD-DVD / Blu Ray On Tue, 2008-02-19 at 15:26 +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I /heart/ about the pre-2K bit of plastic is the way it takes control over your TV/DVD and insists that you watch the copyright notices Sounds like you need to get yourself a better DVD player. -- dwmw2 - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] k/ -- Please email me back if you need any more help. Brian Butterworth http://www.ukfree.tv
Re: [backstage] HD-DVD / Blu Ray
Concerning physical records, I feel the same way. I buy few items online, not only because of the silly DRM, but because managing storage and backups is a headache. I concur with Richard's comments that consumers are just putting it all on computers, but every consumer I know has difficulty keeping track of what they have and where it is. Computers grow old and die when they are not stolen, and forums are full of panicked people realizing that they have lost all their music, photos, etc. or are blocked because they can't figure out how to transfer everything. In that regard I was very impressed with the native Apple OSX migration utility which clones everything -- data, applications, configurations, accounts and rights -- to a new machine automatically over firewire. Just be sure to do it before the old machine dies... There are user-friendly backup solutions coming online, but local search still has a ways to go in indexing metadata across formats. I suspect that lots of today's ephemeral data will be difficult to view or listen to years later. If local data is DRM'd, one may as well accept that it will have no longevity whatsoever. My friends who are recording studio owners are doing offline backup with client-specific external hard drives, they have become so affordable that they just bill the client for one, throw everything on there when the project is done, and label it with the client's name. Firewire and USB will be around for long enough I suppose. For longevity, portability, and ruggedness, I vote for books and discs. On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 1:20 PM, Darren Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All of this is true enough, but (and there's always a but) you still have the physical artefact, don't you? Even if it's gaffer taped with a hundred others, you still have the physical object you shelled out your money for. The digital stuff is, by your own admission, descended from the objects. Brands may be virtual but I for one prefer to buy the disc. Why? Because there's something tangible to show for the transaction after completion, not something ephemeral that is rather difficult to pin down. There is something that is identifiable as being of worth. That's not to say I don't buy the ephemeral stuff – I have purchased stuff on my iPod – but I am certainly more cautious about buying items that way. How unusual I am I can't say. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Brian Butterworth Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 7:08 PM To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] HD-DVD / Blu Ray On 20/02/2008, Ian Forrester [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know guys, it may have been said multiple times but the only winner in this battle must be the online services. However I'm still left wondering when the general public will get their head around non-physical media. People seem to like the look and feel of physical media like CDs, Vinyl, DVDs. I was talking to Dave about this in Edinburgh. The thing is, the current evidence suggests that this might be a false assumption. From a physiological point of view, lots of marketing efforts does indeed go into selling things to people. However, the modern liberal international capitalist system puts a lot of effort into promoting brands, which a not things, but virtual. It is quite a logical step to say that brands therefore exist in cyberspace. They have value only as something that is possessed by a company that hey can use. I've got three enormous boxes that I have all my CDs in. I gaffer taped them up when I finished MP3ing them, which was years ago now. How many times have I unpacked them? None. I've got a Vista Media Center with all my music on it, and I can copy and play this (using www.orb.com) anywhere. It's connected to the TV and has a remote control, and does my videos and all my thousands of photos. I can access all this lot from where ever with one remote control. I'm not alone. Everyone with an MP3 player (say an iPod) can carry around an amount of music you couldn't carry around in a transit van if it were on vinyl. Look, I'm such a nerd that I bought all of Star Trek (not Enterprise, obviously but with the Cartoons), Doctor Who and Blake's Seven on VHS and they took up the whole damn loft! Now I can have it all on a box smaller than half a VHS cassette. And if that's not enough. To quote from Down The Line, What is point DVD? The weirdest exam result (was the A) I got for an AO Level in Science in Society, so I've known about the idea of peak oil and climate change for ages. I recon that if we are going to run out of the oil and stop killing the planet, then the easiest thing for people to give up is buying data stamped onto heavy plastic carted around by lorry. It's just so unnecessary! If you are investing, invest in fat datapipes not past-it plastic.
Re: [backstage] HD-DVD / Blu Ray
I'd agree a virtual item is a harder sell, but perhaps no more than real items being sold through an e-tailer used to be. Remember in the 90's/early 00's when everyone was talking about the big bad security fears of tapping your credit card number into a website? You hardly even think about this now right? Because you do it so often... Perhaps the purchase of virtual goods (which may seem alien and uncomfortable to the average punter now) will eventually be as acceptable as ordering something physical once the consumer is used to it and the tech is more friendly. There is lots of money to be made, so the market will sort it out one way or another. This is all just my personal opinion :-) J On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 12:20 PM, Darren Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All of this is true enough, but (and there's always a but) you still have the physical artefact, don't you? Even if it's gaffer taped with a hundred others, you still have the physical object you shelled out your money for. The digital stuff is, by your own admission, descended from the objects. Brands may be virtual but I for one prefer to buy the disc. Why? Because there's something tangible to show for the transaction after completion, not something ephemeral that is rather difficult to pin down. There is something that is identifiable as being of worth. That's not to say I don't buy the ephemeral stuff – I have purchased stuff on my iPod – but I am certainly more cautious about buying items that way. How unusual I am I can't say. *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Brian Butterworth *Sent:* Wednesday, February 20, 2008 7:08 PM *To:* backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk *Subject:* Re: [backstage] HD-DVD / Blu Ray On 20/02/2008, *Ian Forrester* [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know guys, it may have been said multiple times but the only winner in this battle must be the online services. However I'm still left wondering when the general public will get their head around non-physical media. People seem to like the look and feel of physical media like CDs, Vinyl, DVDs. I was talking to Dave about this in Edinburgh. The thing is, the current evidence suggests that this might be a false assumption. From a physiological point of view, lots of marketing efforts does indeed go into selling things to people. However, the modern liberal international capitalist system puts a lot of effort into promoting brands, which a not things, but virtual. It is quite a logical step to say that brands therefore exist in cyberspace. They have value only as something that is possessed by a company that hey can use. I've got three enormous boxes that I have all my CDs in. I gaffer taped them up when I finished MP3ing them, which was years ago now. How many times have I unpacked them? None. I've got a Vista Media Center with all my music on it, and I can copy and play this (using www.orb.com) anywhere. It's connected to the TV and has a remote control, and does my videos and all my thousands of photos. I can access all this lot from where ever with one remote control. I'm not alone. Everyone with an MP3 player (say an iPod) can carry around an amount of music you couldn't carry around in a transit van if it were on vinyl. Look, I'm such a nerd that I bought all of Star Trek (not Enterprise, obviously but with the Cartoons), Doctor Who and Blake's Seven on VHS and they took up the whole damn loft! Now I can have it all on a box smaller than half a VHS cassette. And if that's not enough. To quote from Down The Line, What is point DVD? The weirdest exam result (was the A) I got for an AO Level in Science in Society, so I've known about the idea of peak oil and climate change for ages. I recon that if we are going to run out of the oil and stop killing the planet, then the easiest thing for people to give up is buying data stamped onto heavy plastic carted around by lorry. It's just so unnecessary! If you are investing, invest in fat datapipes not past-it plastic. http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/feb/19/musicnews.netmusic?gusrc=rssfeed=technology Cheers zIan Forrester This e-mail is: [x] private; [] ask first; [] bloggable Senior Producer, BBC Backstage BC5 C3, Media Village, 201 Wood Lane, London W12 7TP email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] work: +44 (0)2080083965 mob: +44 (0)7711913293 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Woodhouse Sent: 20 February 2008 13:31 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: RE: [backstage] HD-DVD / Blu Ray On Tue, 2008-02-19 at 15:26 +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I /heart/ about the pre-2K bit of plastic is the way it takes control over your TV/DVD and insists that you watch the copyright notices Sounds like you need to get yourself a better DVD player. -- dwmw2 - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk
Re: [backstage] HD-DVD / Blu Ray
On 20/02/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I buy virtually all my music as CDs, but then rip them to play them how I want to play them. There is a widely held belief that ripping CDs may actually be illegal in the UK. The Gower's report recommended allowing private copying by 2008[1]. However only for format shifting and only for 1 copy. Oddly in the review the example of CD to MP3 player was used. How on earth you can do that without moving it to the PC and then to the MP3 player (i.e. copying twice) is unclear. If I can buy non-drm/tied music/films, I will. Can't help with films, but play.com sell non-DRMed MP3 music[2] (selection isn't exactly massive, but give it time.) Oddly it's cheaper than iTunes. Who in there right mind would pay extra just to get DRM on the stuff they buy? Brian Butterworth wrote: By 2015 the nets going to be 100s of Mb/s I wouldn't have thought it should take that long, Japan has 100,000 kbps (nearly 100Mbit) for just 36.58$US[3]. Same speed for upload. And no bandwidth cap. In contrast in the same report it listed the speed of the UK's Incumbent DSL provider as just 2200 kbps (down), 256 kbps (up) with 15GB cap priced at 45.17$US. (Note figures are based on a report written in 2005, so speeds may have increased) A more important question is will the BBC be providing it's programs on Blue-Ray or HD-DVD? Will Microsoft cut their losses and run or will they use their immense capital to push HD-DVD harder now? Personally I have no problem with using ordinary DVDs, the fact I don't have a HD TV might be a considerable factor though! DVDs won't go away soon, they still have uses, if only for backup and archive (though many people use a second drive or some kind of network storage). There is something to be said for having a physical copy as opposed to a download. If I have the physical copy I know it can not be taken from me remotely (at least not with DVD). Someone may break into my house or it might burn down but you can insure against that. How many insurance companies will insure your iTunes collection on your PC? (Serious question, how will the increased value of digital data on PCs in the home affect the insurance market? Will we start seeing insurance for data, will we see insurance companies offering discounts for secure systems like the do if your property has good quality locks and alarms?) It's easier to take stuff away from you remotely with downloads. Viruses can erase entire drives (not often done, thankfully) however DDoS attacks against big vendor do happen, so how long till someone tries to blackmail Apple (iTunes) with pay up or we'll wipe your customers music collections and license files*? Add to that the fact that Hard Disks do crash from time to time and filesystems do get corrupted then downloads are currently risky business. At least if we get a private copy exemption it will make backup easier but DRM screws that up. Suddenly you don't just need the audio/video file you need the license. And some licenses are tied to a physical machine so when its destroyed and you replace it the files could be useless. * Would we know if this had already happened? Andy References: [1] Gowers Review of Intellectual Property ISBN: 978-0-11-84083-9 Available from: http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/independent_reviews/gowers_review_intellectual_property/gowersreview_index.cfm tinyurl: http://tinyurl.com/bvds2 [2] Play.com Music Downloads http://www.play.com/Music/MP3-Download/6-/DigitalHome.html [3] Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, Multiple Play: Pricing And Policy Trends, DSTI/ICCP/TISP(2005)12/FINAL (April 2006): Available from: www.oecd.org/dataoecd/47/32/36546318.pdf -- Computers are like air conditioners. Both stop working, if you open windows. -- Adam Heath - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] HD-DVD / Blu Ray
Ian Forrester wrote: I don't know guys, it may have been said multiple times but the only winner in this battle must be the online services. However I'm still left wondering when the general public will get their head around non-physical media. People seem to like the look and feel of physical media like CDs, Vinyl, DVDs. Are you sure it's a physical thing? Could it be that the early adopters saw the flaw in the plan? Why rent something that you could buy for the same amount or less? Why be dictated to about how many times and how quickly you could watch/hear something? So I bought a 100 Projector - and I should watch Pirates of the Carribean sitting on a stool in front of the PC screen in the study? You want me to listen to music on those tinny speakers? Car listening is verboten? So I need this program for that show, this other program for this tune, I need to upgrade my OS and then I can't play the game I bought last month - bugger off! I'm buying a DVD/CD/games console. Granted the public don't understand all/most of this - but there is *so* much wrong... What works for me: * Squeezebox : sleek and small. Plays mp3s that I rip and archive. * CDs : Higher quality than mp3, no DRM (it matters to me), integrated backup, lend/shareable. * MythTV frontends : small dedicated box in the lounge/bedroom - plugs into TV. Watch anything anytime. Download shows that have been broadcast and mis-recorded. * DVDs : High quality films/sound. Compact, work on my TV-box. Buy and anticipate. Plan and watch with friends. Integrated backup. lend/shareable. What doesn't work for me: * DRM music recorded at low bitrate that I can't listen to in the car or on my last-gen portable player or when the company goes under/changes it's mind. * Film download/playing applications that make the lounge feel like the office * Being told what I can do with something I bought * Not being able to buy a 2nd-hand CD/LP from the dawn of time What other non-physical/intangible items do people buy? Is online so different? * e-tickets * insurance * club/gym membership David - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] HD-DVD / Blu Ray
On 21/02/2008, Darren Stephens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All of this is true enough, but (and there's always a but) you still have the physical artefact, don't you? Even if it's gaffer taped with a hundred others, you still have the physical object you shelled out your money for. The digital stuff is, by your own admission, descended from the objects. Brands may be virtual but I for one prefer to buy the disc. Why? Because there's something tangible to show for the transaction after completion, not something ephemeral that is rather difficult to pin down. There is something that is identifiable as being of worth. No, I gave away all 486 Star Trek and 150+ Dr Who videos. I no longer need a loft to keep them in. However I find it interesting that you link something that is identifiable with being of worth. So the three billion Auntie spends on telly, radio and downloads has no worth, by your definition. I suspet that the linkage you state is not real, and is simply a matter of faith to people who used to make money from it. It's a bit like when CDs started and people said they would never catch on because people NEEDED gatefold and poster sleve, that CD cases were too small and so on. Just the Satus Quo, the status quo becomes old hat. I love seeing all the old pre-war cars doing the London to Brighton run, but people wouldn't rush out to buy them... That's not to say I don't buy the ephemeral stuff – I have purchased stuff on my iPod – but I am certainly more cautious about buying items that way. How unusual I am I can't say. *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Brian Butterworth *Sent:* Wednesday, February 20, 2008 7:08 PM *To:* backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk *Subject:* Re: [backstage] HD-DVD / Blu Ray On 20/02/2008, *Ian Forrester* [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't know guys, it may have been said multiple times but the only winner in this battle must be the online services. However I'm still left wondering when the general public will get their head around non-physical media. People seem to like the look and feel of physical media like CDs, Vinyl, DVDs. I was talking to Dave about this in Edinburgh. The thing is, the current evidence suggests that this might be a false assumption. From a physiological point of view, lots of marketing efforts does indeed go into selling things to people. However, the modern liberal international capitalist system puts a lot of effort into promoting brands, which a not things, but virtual. It is quite a logical step to say that brands therefore exist in cyberspace. They have value only as something that is possessed by a company that hey can use. I've got three enormous boxes that I have all my CDs in. I gaffer taped them up when I finished MP3ing them, which was years ago now. How many times have I unpacked them? None. I've got a Vista Media Center with all my music on it, and I can copy and play this (using www.orb.com) anywhere. It's connected to the TV and has a remote control, and does my videos and all my thousands of photos. I can access all this lot from where ever with one remote control. I'm not alone. Everyone with an MP3 player (say an iPod) can carry around an amount of music you couldn't carry around in a transit van if it were on vinyl. Look, I'm such a nerd that I bought all of Star Trek (not Enterprise, obviously but with the Cartoons), Doctor Who and Blake's Seven on VHS and they took up the whole damn loft! Now I can have it all on a box smaller than half a VHS cassette. And if that's not enough. To quote from Down The Line, What is point DVD? The weirdest exam result (was the A) I got for an AO Level in Science in Society, so I've known about the idea of peak oil and climate change for ages. I recon that if we are going to run out of the oil and stop killing the planet, then the easiest thing for people to give up is buying data stamped onto heavy plastic carted around by lorry. It's just so unnecessary! If you are investing, invest in fat datapipes not past-it plastic. http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2008/feb/19/musicnews.netmusic?gusrc=rssfeed=technology Cheers zIan Forrester This e-mail is: [x] private; [] ask first; [] bloggable Senior Producer, BBC Backstage BC5 C3, Media Village, 201 Wood Lane, London W12 7TP email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] work: +44 (0)2080083965 mob: +44 (0)7711913293 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Woodhouse Sent: 20 February 2008 13:31 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: RE: [backstage] HD-DVD / Blu Ray On Tue, 2008-02-19 at 15:26 +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I /heart/ about the pre-2K bit of plastic is the way it takes control over your TV/DVD and insists that you watch the copyright notices Sounds like you need to get yourself a better DVD player. -- dwmw2
RE: [backstage] HD-DVD / Blu Ray
They've been equal in both formats so far - the 8th 'blu-ray' on that search is the HD Planet Earth. Many more to follow I'm sure - Life in the Undergrowth is bound to be impressive in either. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] HD-DVD / Blu Ray Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2008 22:56:26 + On Thursday 21 February 2008 13:41:21 Andy wrote: A more important question is will the BBC be providing it's programs on Blue-Ray or HD-DVD? BBC Shop has 8 titles as blu ray 7 as HD DVD. cf : http://www.bbcshop.com/ (search for Blu ray and HD respectively (note quotes round blu ray :) ) Michael. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ _ Get Hotmail on your mobile, text MSN to 63463! http://mobile.uk.msn.com/pc/mail.aspx
RE: [backstage] HD-DVD / Blu Ray
Actually one of those 8 title hits when you do a search is HD-DVD (Planet Earth appears twice). The BBC have been pretty good on making sure both formats are supported equally with the extremely limited releases they've made to date. There was one title in the original batch of releases (The Tudors Season One) that was Blu-Ray only but that's because it was actually put out by Sony and not the Beeb. Sony were obviously never going to put out a title on the rival HD-DVD format. Now that the last two HD-DVD exclusive hold-outs (Universal and Paramount) have announced they're moving to Blu-Ray I think there's litte doubt that the Beeb will do the same when their next batch of titles are announced. Ian -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael Sparks Sent: 21 February 2008 22:56 To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk Subject: Re: [backstage] HD-DVD / Blu Ray On Thursday 21 February 2008 13:41:21 Andy wrote: A more important question is will the BBC be providing it's programs on Blue-Ray or HD-DVD? BBC Shop has 8 titles as blu ray 7 as HD DVD. cf : http://www.bbcshop.com/ (search for Blu ray and HD respectively (note quotes round blu ray :) ) Michael. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
