[backstage] Over the Air sign-up now live

[Mr I Forrester]

Hi All,

Seeing how everyone's so obsessed with the iPlayer streams on the iPhone :)

I thought you'd all like to know the official sign-up for "Over the Air" 
has now gone live - http://overtheair.org/blog/?page_id=20


If you don't know what "Over the Air" here's a quick recap.

Over the Air, is the largest grass-roots mobile developer event that London has 
ever seen. It takes place over a Friday - Saturday (48 hours of mobile 
development) in hack-day-style; but featuring workshops, tutorials, speakers 
and lots of other good-stuff like network APIs and emerging platform SDKs.

There's tons more at www.overtheair.org.


I can also tell you we are certainly looking to include a server of high 
quality streams like those found on the iphone which will be legally 
cleared for purpose of the over the air event. We also have Android and 
OpenMoko! Thats all I can say for now, but subscribe to the over the air 
feed for more big announcements soon.


Really hope to see you all there,

Ian
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Re: [backstage] Own up now, who was this?

[Mr I Forrester]

Oh thats funny :) lol

Matt Barber wrote:

Haha

On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 6:36 PM, Iain Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:


http://dumpedimage.com/?image=843

:D
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Re: [backstage] RSS Feed Thumbnails Missing

[Mr I Forrester]

I've fwd'ed on your email, hopefully it will be fixed soon.

Fraser Murrell wrote:


Hi,

 

I noticed that for all news RSS feeds, the  elements 
that normally provided us with a link to a thumbnail image of a 
particular article is no longer present..  As of around 11:00 this 
morning (GMT) they started to disappear, and now there are none!


 


Will they be back?  I hope so! J

 


Kind Regards,

Fraser



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Re: [backstage] iPlayer, DRM, Free Software and the iPhone

[Tom Hannen]

My mum too - she keeps telling me that I should encourage the BBC to
use fewer DRM restrictions... All the time...

On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 12:01 AM, Sean DALY <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My mother hates unnecessary technical complications (she finds
>  computers and gadgets are complicated enough as it is) and DRM  falls
>  right into that category :-)
>
>
>
>
>  On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 12:49 AM, Andy Halsall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  > > Till then, I would suggest you don't do anything your mother wouldn't be
>  >  > happy about.
>  >
>  >  I take it that isn't legal advice... :)
>  >
>  >
>
>
> -
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Re: [backstage] iPlayer, DRM, Free Software and the iPhone

[Sean DALY]

My mother hates unnecessary technical complications (she finds
computers and gadgets are complicated enough as it is) and DRM  falls
right into that category :-)


On Tue, Mar 11, 2008 at 12:49 AM, Andy Halsall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Till then, I would suggest you don't do anything your mother wouldn't be
>  > happy about.
>
>  I take it that isn't legal advice... :)
>
>
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Re: [backstage] iPlayer, DRM, Free Software and the iPhone

[Andy Halsall]

> Till then, I would suggest you don't do anything your mother wouldn't be
> happy about.

I take it that isn't legal advice... :)



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Re: [backstage] iPlayer, DRM, Free Software and the iPhone

[Mr I Forrester]

Ok so I spoke to many people and there is no official answer, yet!

Yes I know your all waiting with baited for some news but your'll have 
to wait a little longer it would seem.


Till then, I would suggest you don't do anything your mother wouldn't be 
happy about.


:)

Cheers


Mr I Forrester wrote:
I will attempt to get some answers to your questions, although I think 
the iphone service is only a beta service at the moment?


Andy Halsall wrote:

This morning I came across the following;

 

Subject: Re: [GeekUp] Fwd: [ORG-discuss] iPlayer DRM is over?
From: "Tim Dobson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Matt Lee has written a howto for dummies here:

http://exploringfreedom.org/2008/03/08/bbc-iplayer-on-gnu-linux-without-flash-using-only-free-software/ 



it is less verbose and more onpoint than the flickr entry



Basically, its a how-to describing how you can go and grab the videos 
being made available to iPhone users by the BBC via iPlayer, from 
pretty much any machine, the bonus being that the process and end 
result are all achievable using free software.  The process should be 
fairly familiar to most people receiving this, but it boils down to; 
"find the actual media source and download it".


Now, a number of things concerned me.

Firstly, the fact that the BBC are providing DRM free video, even 
though I was under the impression that this was not possible due to 
rather complex contractual, licensing and policy issues. A statement 
made by the BBC in June 2007 seems to confirm that,


"In order to maximise public value, the BBC must balance extending 
access to content with the need to maintain the interests of rights 
holders and the value of secondary rights in BBC programming. Without 
a time-based DRM framework the BBC would not be able to meet the 
terms of the trust's PVT (Public Value Test) decision."


Well the new iPlayer for the iPhone appears to be DRM free, available 
to anyone, anywhere (if my rather quick and dirty look using US 
proxies are anything to go by). Moreover using the process detailed 
in the how-to, it is easily downloadable and indefinitely viewable.
My second concern is that those of us who are using free software may 
use this method to download the shows we want to watch.  Others will 
use it to grab and immediately re-distribute this BBC content.  Of 
course this is already potentially possible on Windows based 
machines, by removing the DRM the downloaded shows are easly shared. 
With DRM free content now being made available, it may appear that 
any future unauthorised redistribution of this material is somehow 
related to those of us that use free software or asked for a DRM free 
service.  There is already enough confusion about the free software 
message and the aims of the anti-DRM movmement.


So if the BBC are entitled to distribute this material DRM free for 
the iPhone, why are they not providing it for other platforms? I'm 
sure Mac/Linux/Windows/$other users would quite like DRM free, 
non-expiring media.
In addition, I have to wonder about the legality of ripping the BBC's 
iPlayer streams in the manner described in Matt's how-to, it works, 
and works well (or at least it did at around 18:00 today), the end 
result would be ideal for many people in a variety of circumstances. 
If the BBC are not entitled to distribute this material in the manner 
they are doing then how are the BBC going to justify this rather 
large lapse, a lapse caused by trying to support a very small if 
rather trendy minority group?


The statement made by Anthony Rose to clarify why the iPhone has been 
singled out is,


"We started with iPhone because it is the device most optimised for 
high quality video currently available"


I'm not sure how credible that is, given the raft of multimedia 
capable mobile devices out there (many more capable than the iPhone), 
I'm surprised that this service wasn't geared toward all mobile 
devices, or even all non-windows machines, after all, without a DRM 
component, it will presumably work on quite a few devices and pretty 
much any modern computer.  (As an addendum, I'd love to see the 
numbers on how many BBC employees' have iPhones... although I assume 
that would be outside the scope of any viable FOI request.)


I note that the service for the iPhone is intended only to be used 
when the iPhone is connected via a wifi connection, in future if it 
were available via the mobile networks there would be a rather large 
additional concern.
The iPhone (which is only available on one network in the UK and 
largley from a single provider) would have a rather unique selling 
point, a benefit that would be rather nice in commercial terms for 
the iPhone's supplier (even more than it is currently). 
I am already rather put out that the BBC requires that I use a 
Windows PC to get the full use out of iPlayer (which I cannot and 
will not do), I'd be even more annoyed if it required me to use a 
specific handset tied to a s

Re: [backstage] iPlayer DRM is over?

[Brian Butterworth]

Thanks for doing that.


On 09/03/2008, Matthew Somerville <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Tim Dobson wrote:
> > next step is to automate it
> > is that what Ian Wallaces script does?
>
> Yes; I've put an online version I wrote probably at the same time up at:
> http://www.dracos.co.uk/play/bbc-iplayer-mp4/?p=b009384l
>
> It includes the "related concepts", plus the history of
> streaming/download/MP4 release dates.
>
> ATB,
> Matthew
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>



-- 
Please email me back if you need any more help.

Brian Butterworth
http://www.ukfree.tv

Re: [backstage] Is it just me, or is some stereo audio on BBC chans (Freeview) out of phase?

[Brian Butterworth]

On 06/03/2008, Steve Jolly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Christopher Woods wrote:
> >> Can you give an exact channel, date and time when you
> >> observed the phenomenon?  (03:59 GMT last night on N24, perhaps?)
> >
> > Definitely. Observable on BBC2 last night/this morning (05/03/2008)
> during
> > the intro for "Spin" (03:44am). Also observable during the 60second
> > countdown buffer for N24 top of the hour (4am). I can send MPEG2 files
> if
> > you want (direct streamrip, advantage of having USB DTV receiver).
>
> I have access to DTT stream recordings. :-)  I took a look at the N24
> music you mentioned.  Listening to it, there's a very clear difference
> in the stereo characteristic of the sound between the (virtually mono)
> talking head segments on either side of the music, and a lesser
> difference between the music at the end of the special report and the
> N24 countdown in question.



I'm using a Vista Media Center with a double DTT card, and no matter which
card I use this always happens:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZr-588a5A8

There's a glitch at -27:00 - and the thing is that it's there every hour.
It matters not which DVB card I use (I've used Black Gold, a generic one and
the Hauupagge one I use now).

I've never complained about it because it doesn't happen on standard
Freeview boxes.   The wierd this is that when I record it and covert it to
MPEG to put on YouTube, it's there.

The sequence has changed many times and every time it does the audio and
video corrupt at -27:00.

Wired that.

Also, can we have the stereo back on News 24.  The music is great, but you
can't hear it properly.  I've got a fully digital-to-the-amp thing going on
with studio monitor speakers...  I want to hear David Lowe.

Converting the stereo to mid/side encoding and listening to the new
> channels separately, the side channel contains virtually no LF
> component, whereas the mid-channel contains plenty - you'd expect them
> to contain roughly the same amount if the signal had been subjected to a
> 90 degree phase offset, and you'd expect all the low frequencies to be
> concentrated in the side channel in the case of a 180 degree phase
> inversion.


Perhaps it could be bad decoding of the mono sound?


So at the moment, I don't see any evidence for an overall phase error,
> I'm afraid - at least for the one section of audio I've had a look at.
> :-)  The difference in the characteristic of the sound that I can hear
> could simply be due to the transition between dead-centre mono speech
> and a very complex bit of music with a broad sound stage.
>
> S
>
> -
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-- 
Please email me back if you need any more help.

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Re: [backstage] Own up now, who was this?

[Matt Barber]

Haha

On Mon, Mar 10, 2008 at 6:36 PM, Iain Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> http://dumpedimage.com/?image=843
>
> :D
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please
> visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.
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>

[backstage] RSS Feed Thumbnails Missing

[Fraser Murrell]

Hi,

I noticed that for all news RSS feeds, the  elements that 
normally provided us with a link to a thumbnail image of a particular article 
is no longer present..  As of around 11:00 this morning (GMT) they started to 
disappear, and now there are none!

Will they be back?  I hope so! :)

Kind Regards,
Fraser

[backstage] Own up now, who was this?

[Iain Wallace]

http://dumpedimage.com/?image=843

:D
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RE: [backstage] BBC Support page

[Christopher Woods]

I dunno... I was lucky enough to have a tour round BBC Brum (Mailbox) last
year, and I found TV Ops absolutely fascinating. Could've easily spent all
day in there just asking annoyingly technical questions.

Maybe it was a good thing we left after ten minutes and were let loose on
the Midlands Today set. ; 

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mr I Forrester
> Sent: 10 March 2008 08:53
> To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
> Subject: Re: [backstage] BBC Support page
> 
> I don't think anyone wants to see live internet operations :)
> 
> Good suggestion
> 
> Adam Leach wrote:
> > Just trying to find a support page as i've got a number of 
> errors when 
> > accessing the weather page and i've come across this
> >
> > http://www.bbc.co.uk/support/
> >
> > Shame it isn't a live stream, we could see what the Internet 
> > operations are upto.
> >
> > Adam
> >
> > -
> > Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, 
> > please visit 
> > http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.  
> > Unofficial list archive: 
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
> >   
> 
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RE: [backstage] Undermining iPlayer DRM

My apologies - this will be fixed soon:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/02/leaving_comments_on_bbc_b
logs.html 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Sean DALY
Sent: 08 March 2008 13:19
To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
Subject: Re: [backstage] Undermining iPlayer DRM

Nick, I'm sorry, I'm giving up, with 2 browsers on 3 computers since
yesterday I get the same timeout error.

Sean



On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 6:33 PM, Nick Reynolds-FM&T
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> please do keep trying to comment Sean - some are getting through
>
>  
>
>  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Sean DALY
>  Sent: Fri 07/03/2008 5:15 PM
>
> To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk
>  Subject: Re: [backstage] Undermining iPlayer DRM
>
>
>
>
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/03/bbc_iplayer_on_iphone_b
> ehind_t.html
>
>  My secret source :-)
>
>  I wanted to comment, but I got an http 502, there seems to be a
problem.
>
>  Sean
>
>
>
>
>  On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 6:01 PM, Phil Wilson
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  > > With ideas like this being touted by the BBC for people to get 
> content on  >  > different devices SANS usage or time restrictions, it

> seems bizarre that  >  > another part of the BBC produces iPlayer 
> which is time limited and device  >  > controlled.
>  >
>  >  I'm told that there is now an iPhone version of the iPlayer which 
> streams in h.264  >  >  Apparently /iplayer should work natively for 
> iPhone users and there's some more info on  >  
> http://myijump.com/bbciplayer/  >  >  Anyone got any more details 
> about the streaming being used? Or is there some already out  >  there

> that I've missed?
>  >
>  >  Cheers,
>  >
>  >  Phil
>  >
>  >
>  > -
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Re: [backstage] iPlayer, DRM, Free Software and the iPhone

[Andy Halsall]

On Monday 10 March 2008 08:55:46 Mr I Forrester wrote:
> I will attempt to get some answers to your questions, although I think
> the iphone service is only a beta service at the moment?
>

Ian,

I get the impresion some of them, or at least those related to future support 
for other mobile platforms may have been answered on one of the BBC blogs 
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2008/03/bbc_iplayer_on_iphone_behind_t.html).

However I think most of my points and queries still stand so any further info 
you could get would be nice.

Thanks.

Andy.





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Re: [backstage] BBC Support page

[Peter Bowyer]

Isn't that one of those contradictions in terms, like Welsh Culture
and Military Intelligence?

On 10/03/2008, Mr I Forrester <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't think anyone wants to see live internet operations :)
>
> Good suggestion
>
> Adam Leach wrote:
> > Just trying to find a support page as i've got a number of errors when
> > accessing the weather page and i've come across this
> >
> > http://www.bbc.co.uk/support/
> >
> > Shame it isn't a live stream, we could see what the Internet operations
> > are upto.
> >
> > Adam
> >
> > -
> > Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please 
> > visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html.  
> > Unofficial list archive: 
> > http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
> >
>
> -
> Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group.  To unsubscribe, please 
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>


-- 
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Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [backstage] iPlayer, DRM, Free Software and the iPhone

[Mr I Forrester]

I will attempt to get some answers to your questions, although I think 
the iphone service is only a beta service at the moment?


Andy Halsall wrote:

This morning I came across the following;

  

Subject: Re: [GeekUp] Fwd: [ORG-discuss] iPlayer DRM is over?
From: "Tim Dobson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Matt Lee has written a howto for dummies here:

http://exploringfreedom.org/2008/03/08/bbc-iplayer-on-gnu-linux-without-flash-using-only-free-software/

it is less verbose and more onpoint than the flickr entry



Basically, its a how-to describing how you can go and grab the videos being 
made available to iPhone users by the BBC via iPlayer, from pretty much any 
machine, the bonus being that the process and end result are all achievable 
using free software.  The process should be fairly familiar to most people 
receiving this, but it boils down to; "find the actual media source and 
download it".


Now, a number of things concerned me.

Firstly, the fact that the BBC are providing DRM free video, even though I was 
under the impression that this was not possible due to rather complex 
contractual, licensing and policy issues. A statement made by the BBC in June 
2007 seems to confirm that,


"In order to maximise public value, the BBC must balance extending access to 
content with the need to maintain the interests of rights holders and the 
value of secondary rights in BBC programming. Without a time-based DRM 
framework the BBC would not be able to meet the terms of the trust's PVT 
(Public Value Test) decision."


Well the new iPlayer for the iPhone appears to be DRM free, available to 
anyone, anywhere (if my rather quick and dirty look using US proxies are 
anything to go by). Moreover using the process detailed in the how-to, it is 
easily downloadable and indefinitely viewable. 

My second concern is that those of us who are using free software may use this 
method to download the shows we want to watch.  Others will use it to grab 
and immediately re-distribute this BBC content.  Of course this is already 
potentially possible on Windows based machines, by removing the DRM the 
downloaded shows are easly shared.  

With DRM free content now being made available, it may appear that any future 
unauthorised redistribution of this material is somehow related to those of 
us that use free software or asked for a DRM free service.  There is already 
enough confusion about the free software message and the aims of the anti-DRM 
movmement.


So if the BBC are entitled to distribute this material DRM free for the 
iPhone, why are they not providing it for other platforms? I'm sure 
Mac/Linux/Windows/$other users would quite like DRM free, non-expiring media. 

In addition, I have to wonder about the legality of ripping the BBC's iPlayer 
streams in the manner described in Matt's how-to, it works, and works well 
(or at least it did at around 18:00 today), the end result would be ideal for 
many people in a variety of circumstances.  

If the BBC are not entitled to distribute this material in the manner they are 
doing then how are the BBC going to justify this rather large lapse, a lapse 
caused by trying to support a very small if rather trendy minority group?


The statement made by Anthony Rose to clarify why the iPhone has been singled 
out is,


"We started with iPhone because it is the device most optimised for high 
quality video currently available"


I'm not sure how credible that is, given the raft of multimedia capable mobile 
devices out there (many more capable than the iPhone), I'm surprised that 
this service wasn't geared toward all mobile devices, or even all non-windows 
machines, after all, without a DRM component, it will presumably work on 
quite a few devices and pretty much any modern computer.  (As an addendum, 
I'd love to see the numbers on how many BBC employees' have iPhones... 
although I assume that would be outside the scope of any viable FOI request.)


I note that the service for the iPhone is intended only to be used when the 
iPhone is connected via a wifi connection, in future if it were available via 
the mobile networks there would be a rather large additional concern. 

The iPhone (which is only available on one network in the UK and largley from 
a single provider) would have a rather unique selling point, a benefit that 
would be rather nice in commercial terms for the iPhone's supplier (even more 
than it is currently).  

I am already rather put out that the BBC requires that I use a Windows PC to 
get the full use out of iPlayer (which I cannot and will not do), I'd be even 
more annoyed if it required me to use a specific handset tied to a specific 
mobile carrier to get the best out of its mobile services as well.


I have some stats from earlier in the year that I wanted to look at to see 
exactly how many people using non-windows devices were using the BBC's 
various web services, one thing that struck me (apart from the fact that 
t

Re: [backstage] BBC Support page

[Mr I Forrester]

I don't think anyone wants to see live internet operations :)

Good suggestion

Adam Leach wrote:

Just trying to find a support page as i've got a number of errors when
accessing the weather page and i've come across this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/support/

Shame it isn't a live stream, we could see what the Internet operations
are upto.

Adam

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