date:20040405

In a message dated 4/5/2004 11:32:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

From reading this quote my understanding is that Shoghi Effendi can be 
infallible in regards to history providing he's basing what he says on the 
revealed word.

Dear Dean, 

Perhaps, but I'm not sure how that would apply to a book like the Dawnbreakers. 

warmest, Susan 
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Re: Letters of the Living

2004-04-05 Thread David Friedman

"Shoghi Effendi was asked several times during his ministry to define the 
sphere of his operation and his infallibility. The replies he gave and 
which were written on his behalf are most illuminating. He explains that he 
is not an infallible authority on subjects such as economics and science, 
nor does he go into technical matters since his infallibility is confined 
to "matters which are related strictly to the Cause." He further points out 
that "he is not, like the Prophet, omnicient at will," that his 
"infallibility covers interpretation of the revealed word and its 
application," and that he is also "infallible in the protection of the 
Faith."

From reading this quote my understanding is that Shoghi Effendi can be 
infallible in regards to history providing he's basing what he says on the 
revealed word.  He would be able to tell us that the Writings were telling 
us that something happened historically.

David

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Re: Letters of the Living

In a message dated 4/5/2004 10:58:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

You really have not been following Tarikh, have you? 


 No, you had posted the Nayriz paper on Bridges some time ago and really didn't have time to read it once again. I didn't realize there was new stuff in it. 



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Re: Letters of the Living


Dear Susan,

> You have access to the original Nabil's
narrative?

You really have not been following Tarikh,
have you?


> And where are these copies of Nabil's
text you are working with?

In a safe place ;-}


>> and through proxies,
>> such as, Zuhuru'l-Haqq.  All of these were discussed in my
Nayriz article.
>> You should really read it some time ;-}
>
> Did you add more material to it? I
haven't gone through a lot of the postings
> on Tarikh because that looked to be repeats of what you had posted
earlier on
> Bridges.

Clearly you didn't follow the paper nor
the discussions ;-{

> My understanding is he slashed rather
than added.

He did both.  See the Nayriz paper
;-}

Regards,
ahang.




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Re: Letters of the Living

2004-04-05 Thread Jay Paine




-Original Message-From: 
Dean Betts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>To: 
Baha'i Studies <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Date: 
06 April 2004 02:15Subject: Re: Letters of the 
LivingWhat were the Guardian's exact words regarding 
his infallibility?I thought he claimed to be infallible 
only in matters related to the Faith.To me, this would 
include the Faith's history.
 
Dear Dean
 
Here is something from the Universal House of Justice 1977-08-22
 
"Shoghi Effendi was asked several times during his ministry to define the 
sphere of his operation and his infallibility. The replies he gave and which 
were written on his behalf are most illuminating. He explains that he is not an 
infallible authority on subjects such as economics and science, nor does he go 
into technical matters since his infallibility is confined to "matters which are 
related strictly to the Cause." He further points out that "he is not, like the 
Prophet, omnicient at will," that his "infallibility covers interpretation of 
the revealed word and its application," and that he is also "infallible in the 
protection of the Faith."
 
Cheers,
 
Jay
 

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Re: Letters of the Living

In a message dated 4/5/2004 9:16:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

What were the Guardian's exact words regarding his infallibility?
 I thought he claimed to be infallible only in matters related to the Faith.
 To me, this would include the Faith's history.


He claimed to be infallible in matters related to the *protection* of the Faith. Are these really protection issues? 
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Re: Letters of the Living

In a message dated 4/5/2004 8:03:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

If there were some theological reasons, then that needs to be demonstrated. So far, I don't know of any such reason. What aspect of the Dawn-breakers is theological to you? It simply portrays the Babi Faith as a precursor to Baha'u'llah's appearance, but that line of argument was available in lots of other places, such as A Traveler's Narrative.

Dear Ahang,

If that was all there was to it, then Traveler's Narrative should have been enough. But besides length I think there is a different agenda involved. Abdu'l-Baha seems mostly concerned to vindicate the Babi-Bahai Faiths in relationship to the government. But Nabil goes out of his way to make the Bab appear as Christlike as possible. The Farewell Sermon to the Letters of the Living is virtually identical to the one Jesus gave when He sent out the seventy. Likewise, the sky darkens at the Bab's martyrdom just as it is said to have done during the crucifixtion (and as you know there is no other account which substantiates this.) This made Dawnbreakers an ideal book to present the Bab to Western believers.

I think the main reason that Shoghi Effendi translated an edited version of Nabil's Narrative was to remove the effect of E.G. Browne as the main Babi/Baha'i storyteller. That is, if anyone wanted to know the history of the Babis, they had to read something by Browne, who had an agenda of his own and didn't believe in the Babis being the proto-Baha'is, and worried about Azal's role, etc.

He could have solved that problem merely by retranslating Traveler's Narrative. That's what he did when Ahmad Sohrab translated Epistle to the Son of the Wolf.

So the easiest thing to do was to provide the Baha'i community with an elegantly translated narrative of the Babis (which effectively countered everything that Browne had published), which continued the line of thinking in A Traveler's Narrative, and declare that "the unchallengeable" history.

And you don't think that Shoghi Effendi referring to Nabil's Narrative that way gives it any "special significance"? You might argue the Guardian had reasons for doing this but you can hardly say he didn't do it!

To my knowledge, Prof Banani has not had the opportunity to examine the original of Nabil's, or engage in critical text analysis that Kavian Milani or I are doing.

You have access to the original Nabil's narrative?

I suspect what Prof Banani offered was an educated guess, but since the
time you heard him speak those words, which must have been some years ago,

Not many. Three or four.

we've done lot more analysis through Nabil's own text

And where are these copies of Nabil's text you are working with?

and through proxies,
such as, Zuhuru'l-Haqq. All of these were discussed in my Nayriz article. You should really read it some time ;-}

Did you add more material to it? I haven't gone through a lot of the postings on Tarikh because that looked to be repeats of what you had posted earlier on Bridges.

Academics has nothing to do with it. Any ethical person knows that one can't put words in someone else's mouth.

My understanding is he slashed rather than added.

warmest, Susan

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Re: Letters of the Living




Dear Susan,
 
>And you have to balance this statement with 
Guardian's own assertion that he is not infallible in matters of >history, 
etc.
 
What were the Guardian's exact words regarding his 
infallibility?
I thought he claimed to be infallible only in matters 
related to the Faith.
To me, this would include the Faith's history.
 
Best,
Dean 
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Re: Letters of the Living




 

  Ahang wrote:
   
  > I wouldn't assume the Guardian felt 
  'ethically bound' > by those standards 
  of scholarship which binds us academics. 
  Susan Maneck wrote:
  Academics has nothing to do with it. 
   Any ethical person knows that one can't put words in someone else's 
  mouth.   
  Would Ahang and Susan please elaborate on their 
  remarks?
  I'm a little confused.
  Was someone trying to put words in someone else's 
  mouth?
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Re: Letters of the Living


Dear Susan,

You've caught me on a slow day, so let
me respond to your posting.

> There is a reason that the Guardian
chose to translate 
> this particular work. However, I think
those reasons 
> were more theological than because
it was more 
> historically accurate.

If there were some theological reasons,
then that needs to be demonstrated.  So far, I don't know of any such
reason.  What aspect of the Dawn-breakers is theological to you?  It
simply portrays the Babi Faith as a precursor to Baha'u'llah's appearance,
but that line of argument was available in lots of other places, such as
A Traveler's Narrative.

I think the main reason that Shoghi Effendi
translated an edited version of Nabil's Narrative was to remove the effect
of E.G. Browne as the main Babi/Baha'i storyteller.  That is, if anyone
wanted to know the history of the Babis, they had to read something by
Browne, who had an agenda of his own and didn't believe in the Babis being
the proto-Baha'is, and worried about Azal's role, etc.  

So the easiest thing to do was to provide
the Baha'i community with an elegantly translated narrative of the Babis
(which effectively countered everything that Browne had published), which
continued the line of thinking in A Traveler's Narrative, and declare that
"the unchallengeable" history.  After that, no Baha'i would
bother with things like Tarikh-i Jadid or Materials, etc, because they
had the "unchallengeable" document.  

That worked like a charm.  In fact,
we saw it very nicely demonstrated during the past couple of days when
someone ask for the list of Letters and someone opened the DB and said,
"Here you go.  This is THE list."  The unchallengeable
list.  

Well, folks, things aren't that simple.
 


> We can argue how much he edited it
but unless someone 
> has a copy of the original, I'm not
sure we can really say.

I have provided extensive discussion of
this very issue in my Nayriz article which I posted on Tarikh a few months
ago.  I would refer you to that.


> Dr. Banani thought the changes were
extensive enough 
> to make it an entirely different work.

To my knowledge, Prof Banani has not had
the opportunity to examine the original of Nabil's, or engage in critical
text analysis that Kavian Milani or I are doing.  I suspect what Prof
Banani offered was an educated guess, but since the time you heard him
speak those words, which must have been some years ago, we've done lot
more analysis through Nabil's own text and through proxies, such as, Zuhuru'l-Haqq.
 All of these were discussed in my Nayriz article.  You should
really read it some time ;-}  I thoroughly enjoyed reading it myself
;-}


> I wouldn't assume the Guardian felt
'ethically bound' 
> by those standards of scholarship
which binds us academics.

Academics has nothing to do with it.  Any
ethical person knows that one can't put words in someone else's mouth.
 

Regards,
ahang.




 

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RE: Sacred Mythology and Historical Fact

2004-04-05 Thread Brill de Ramirez, Susan










Dean,

 

When I first saw your earlier posting
referencing “sacred mythology,” I was inclined to respond, but
decided to see if the thread included additional thoughts.  It has a bit,
and I would like to offer my thoughts.

 

The very distinctions between the notions
of “sacred mythology” and “historical fact” can be seen
in the debates over the last few years regarding the historical accuracy of Nobel
Laureate Rigoberta Menchu’s ethnographic autobiography.  Menchu
asserted that she related the true story of her life and that of her family and
compadres.  A history professor attacked the book’s historical accuracy. 
The debate here really gets at the heart of what constitutes the recorded
truths of our experiences and worlds.

 

Ironically, it is Menchu who demonstrates
a far greater sophistication regarding our understandings of our present and
the past, than the History professor who attacked her recorded memory.  Were
the field of folklore not so marginalized in the academy, the rest of us, too,
would have more sophisticated understandings of historical facticity and its variously
intertwined discursive narratives.

 

Historical fact is far more complicated
than the facts of science: I drop something and gravity makes it fall. 
Gravity is a scientific fact.  How I relate the falling then enters the
realms of history, story, and interpretation.  As Dr. Maneck makes very
clear, historical fact is hardly as clear cut as gravity.  There is always
a high degree of interpretation in any recorded “fact.”  Our
top historians these days are very aware of this, hence the exhaustive
revisionist work being done to correct the errors of the past when scholars were
under the illusions of a simplistic and reductive facticity.

 

Over the course of the past two decades,
historians, literary scholars, anthropologists, and folklorists have learned a
great deal from each other.

 

And back to Menchu, yes, she did relate
the true story of her life and her people.  And, yes, in some places, she
take poetic license in the telling to convey those truths --thereby including
on occasion, factual inaccuracies (e.g., how her brothers died).  Among
the indigenous peoples of the world, the power of storytelling to convey past
history has not been forgotten.  To understand history among Native
peoples means to have deepened learning.  Mere facts and dates and details
would be considered less important than the larger story.

 

How does this relate to our understandings
of Baha’ii history?  I think, a great deal.  Were I to relate
the factual sufferings of the Babis, their imprisonments, tortures, and deaths
. . . in the scheme of twentieth century holocausts, global slavery, trafficking
in arms, drugs, organs, women and children, etc., the sufferings of the Babis
start to seem less important.  However, if I relate the sufferings of the Bab,
Baha’u’llah, and their followers bearing the Message of God for
today, and the horrific machinations of people to keep that healing Message
from the world, then this story can convey the weight and power of the ages and
the Divine.

 

Perhaps this post gives a wee bit of the
sense of storytelling as the time immemorial vehicle for relating and
remembering and understanding history.

 

Regards to everyone,

 

Susan

 

P.S.  Dean, I agree with your problem
with “mythology” but perhaps for different reasons.  The logocentrism
of mythology narrowed the transformative power and vibrancy of traditional storytelling. 
Hence the reality of conversive means by which we can relate the (hi)stories of
our Faith in conversative and conversional ways.  I do think that the
extent to which we have not drawn on storytelling power to share the Faith has
hurt all our teaching activities.  The early Christians were much more
effective at relating the Good News, than we are, but then they all were part
of oral traditions and could share the Message in such conversively powerful
ways.  We, in our textual worlds, need to relearn this.   Susan

 



Dr. Susan Berry
Brill de Ramirez, Professor of English

Bradley University, Peoria, IL 61625  U.S.A

[EMAIL PROTECTED]; (309) 677-3888; fax (309) 677-2330



 

-Original Message-
From: Dean Betts
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 2:46
PM
To: Baha'i Studies
Subject: Re: Sacred Mythology and
Historical Fact

 



>>How do you teach the Baha'i
Faith to anyone as sacred mythology and not
>>historical fact?







>Perhaps by comparing the lives
and acts of the Bab and Baha`u'llah in terms of their similarities to
"sacred mythology". It is >hard, for instance, to examine the
Martyrdom of the Bab without likening it to the Crucifiction of Christ. That's
just a start . . . . 





 




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Re: Sacred Mythology and Historical Fact

2004-04-05 Thread Popeyesays




In a message dated 4/5/2004 2:47:09 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

So all the Manifestations of God are part of "sacred mythology"?
This is repulsive to me, let alone anyone I might mention the Faith to.
Pehaps this is why I don't teach the Faith well.
To the average person, and according to common usage, myth and truth are at odds, in fact opposites.
 
If sacred myth contains truth, symbolically, metaphorically, mystically, then why is it any less true than historical record - speaking as an historian, I see no problem with examing truth on many levels and when one can equate the two then truth is affirmed.
 
Regards,
 
Scott
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Re: Letters of the Living

2004-04-05 Thread Susan Maneck




 He is the Interpreter of the Word of God and after him 
will succeed the first-born of his lineal descendents."
 
Dear Dean and Ahang, 
 
The Dawnbreakers is *not* the Word of God however. 
And you have to balance this statement with Guardian's own assertion that he is 
not infallible in matters of history, etc. Dean, was your question recarding 
'sacred mythology' aimed at me? If so I think 'sacred narrative' was the phrase 
I used. I deliberately avoided the term mythology, exactly for the reason you 
state, that in popular usage it is thought to mean something that didn't really 
happen. I prefer the term sacred narrative both because it avoids the confusion 
and misunderstandings that the word 'mythology' creates *and* because I think it 
avoids the opposite extreme which is the way I see Ahang's position that 
Dawnbreakers has no 'special significance.' There is a reason that the Guardian 
chose to translate this particular work. However, I think those reasons were 
more theological than because it was more historically accurate. Hence I 
would be inclined to privilege Nabil's Narrative in terms of its protrayal 
of the theological meaning of these events, but not necessarily the accuracy of 
the events themselves.  We can argue how much he edited it but unless 
someone has a copy of the original, I'm not sure we can really say. Dr. Banani 
thought the changes were extensive enough to make it an entirely different work. 
I wouldn't assume the Guardian felt 'ethically bound' by those standards of 
scholarship which binds us academics. Academic scholars are usually bound to 
cite their sources as well, something Shoghi Effendi completely ignores in God 
Passes By. 
 
warmest, Susan 
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Re: Sacred Mythology and Historical Fact




>>How do you teach the Baha'i Faith to anyone as 
sacred mythology and not>>historical fact?

  >Perhaps by comparing the lives and acts of the Bab and Baha`u'llah in 
  terms of their similarities to "sacred mythology". It is >hard, for 
  instance, to examine the Martyrdom of the Bab without likening it to the 
  Crucifiction of Christ. That's just a start . . . . 
   
  So all the Manifestations of God are part of "sacred mythology"?
  This is repulsive to me, let alone anyone I might mention the Faith 
  to.
  Pehaps this is why I don't teach the Faith well.
  To the average person, and according to common usage, myth and truth are 
  at odds, in fact opposites.
   
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Re: Sacred Mythology and Historical Fact

2004-04-05 Thread Popeyesays




In a message dated 4/5/2004 12:42:57 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
How do you teach the Baha'i Faith to anyone as sacred mythology and nothistorical fact?
Perhaps by comparing the lives and acts of the Bab and Baha`u'llah in terms of their similarities to "sacred mythology". It is hard, for instance, to examine the Martyrdom of the Bab without likening it to the Crucifiction of Christ. That's just a start . . . . 
 
Regards,
 
Scott
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Re: Letters of the Living




Dear Ahang,
 
In addition to the following, your opinion that Shoghi 
Effendi's edition of the Dawnbreakers "does not confer upon it any special 
significance" indeed does not set well with me.
 
"O my loving friends! After the passing away of this wronged 
one, it is incumbent upon the Aghsán (Branches), the Afnán (Twigs) of the Sacred 
Lote-Tree, the Hands (pillars) of the Cause of God and the loved ones of the 
Abhá Beauty to turn unto Shoghi Effendi--the youthful branch branched from the 
two hallowed and sacred Lote-Trees and the fruit grown from the union of the two 
offshoots of the Tree of Holiness,-- as he is the sign of God, the chosen 
branch, the Guardian of the Cause of God, he unto whom all the Aghsán, the 
Afnán, the Hands of the Cause of God and His loved ones must turn. He is the 
Interpreter of the Word of God and after him will succeed the first-born of his 
lineal descendents."
 
-- `Abdu'l-Bahá, Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 
11
 
Thank you,
Dean
 
 


  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Ahang Rabbani 
  To: Baha'i Studies 
  Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 1:34 
PM
  Subject: Re: Letters of the Living
  Dear Dean, 
  I wrote: > I emphasize again that the virtue that the Dawn-breakers 
  > was translated/edited by >Shoghi 
  Effendi does not by > itself confer 
  upon it any special significance.To 
  which you responded: > I have to 
  disagree with this.And you based your 
  disagreement on what?!  Because it doesn't sit well with you, or you 
  actually have a logical argument? Thanks, ahang. 
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Sacred Mythology and Historical Fact

How do you teach the Baha'i Faith to anyone as sacred mythology and not
historical fact?


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Re: Letters of the Living


Dear Dean,

I wrote:

> I emphasize again that the virtue
that the Dawn-breakers 
> was translated/edited by >Shoghi
Effendi does not by 
> itself confer upon it any special
significance.

To which you responded:

> I have to disagree with this.

And you based your disagreement on what?!
 Because it doesn't sit well with you, or you actually have a logical
argument?

Thanks,
ahang.




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Re: Letters of the Living




>I emphasize again that the virtue that the 
Dawn-breakers was translated/edited by >Shoghi Effendi does not by itself 
confer upon it any special significance.
 
I have to disagree with this.
 
 
 
  
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Re: Letters of the Living

2004-04-05 Thread Iskandar Hai, M.D.

On Sun, 4 Apr 2004, David Friedman wrote:

> about their tablets?  It's a pity the Bab didn't address them by name!
> 
> David

Security reasons, dear David, security reasons. Babis could very easily be
killed when/if identified by name. Also, perhaps the Bab addressed more
than one Tablet to each letter of the Living; perhaps some of those
Tablets addressed to them after Badasht did not survive. We also don't
know exactly who got what name in Badasht anyhow (except for
Baha'u'llah, Quddus, and Tahirih). 

Warmest regards, 
Iskandar

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Re: Letters of the Living


> Didn't our beloved Guardian approve
the publication of the Dawn Breakers?
> I thought I read a long time ago somewhere that the Dawnbeakers was
more or
> less a work of Shoghi Effendi using Nabil's notes. True, not true?

Strictly speaking, this is not true.  Shoghi
Effendi "edited" Nabil's narrative, but all evidence so far suggests
by editing he simply left out parts and moved some things around, but did
not alter the content.  (As a translator/editor, he was ethically
bound to leave the content alone, even if he wanted to change things.  But
he did augment some incorrect/incomplete info by Nabil with lots of footnotes
that he thought would help the readers.)

I emphasize again that the virtue that
the Dawn-breakers was translated/edited by Shoghi Effendi does not by itself
confer upon it any special significance.  It's simply a Baha'i myth
to think otherwise.  Nabil's narrative, either in original or in Shoghi
Effendi's translation, with stand or fall on its own merits.  And
we already have proven many things in it to be simply incorrect (e.g. various
dates, references, etc) or suspect very strongly to be a product of Nabil's
imaginative mind (eg. prayer of the Bab for His son Ahmad, or His farewell
address to the Letters, etc)

Regards,
ahang. 


 

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Re: Letters of the Living


Dear Dean,

> I think it would help greatly if someone
would translate the Tablets to the
> Letters.

If by "help" you mean "help
to identify the identity of the Letters", no they won't.  Both
Moojan and myself commented on this a while back on this list.  None
of the Tablets contain anything that you can identify them as belonging
to this or that person.  They are simply addressed to the "first
Letter", etc. 

Further, these Tablets are incredibly hard
to read.  A special project was commissioned by the World Centre to
have someone (A learned Baha'i who was later assassinated by the Islamic
regime in Iran) transcribe these Tablets.  I know several other efforts
to read them, but they were only partially successful.  At any rate,
these Tablets don't seem to contain any info of historical interest.  

Regards,
ahang.



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Re: Letters of the Living