RE: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
"My friend, the late Ruhiyyih McComb (originally, Muset Montana Jones), who was named by `Abdul-Baha when she was 8 or 9 years old, said that `Abdu'l-Baha spoke with her in English several times." Yes, He had at least a decent amount of conversational English. There are several instances of conversations He had with American believers when no translator was present. I think they were mostly used for formal talks. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
Susan, At 04:50 PM 12/30/2004, you wrote: >>I think Abdu'l-Baha's knowledge of English may well have been adequate to >>understand people without an interpreter much of the time, at least by the >>time He left America. I suspect speaking English back to them may have been >>more of a problem. But when a translator got it wrong, He was often able to >>correct them<< My friend, the late Ruhiyyih McComb (originally, Muset Montana Jones), who was named by `Abdul-Baha when she was 8 or 9 years old, said that `Abdu'l-Baha spoke with her in English several times. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
Hi, Gilberto, At 03:54 PM 12/30/2004, you wrote: >>Ok. I guess I would emphasize that such groups are not saying that God is >>silent. And so it is not clear exactly how Bahais are saying that they are >>different.<< One of the things which appealed to me about the Baha'i Faith, Eckankar, the Meher Baba movement, etc. is the belief in a (conceivably) timeless succession future persons who would have the same authority as Christ, Muhammad, etc. >>Sure but then the Bahais are doing the same thing. I mean, there are many >>Bahais who construe the attitude of other religions as being closed to >>further revelation or believing that God is silent or has stopped guiding >>mankind and that's substantially not true.<< Yes, but I am not referring to the Baha'i Faith. I mean that Baha'is believe in a continuing succession future Prophets with the same rank as Christ, Muhammad, Baha'u'llah, etc. >>The mainstream orthodox (at least not uncommon) view in Islam AND >>Christianity is that God still speaks to mankind in various ways. That >>doesn't mean that every Tom Dick and Harry should be aknowledged as the next >>prophet.<< No, but we believe that there *will * be future Prophets. >>And at least judging from your account the Bahai faith is similar:<< What is your understanding of khatam? >>Sure, but functionally, for the next 1000 years or so, the Bahai faith will >>be at least as closed-mided about this as any other religion.<< Sure. The Baha'i paradigm will last at least 1000 years. >>It seems to me that there are alot of groups which are Black, Bible Based, >>which really center on Follow the commandments of God. They seem to be >>following a basically conservative impulse. Saying the other churches and >>organizations have lost their way, let themselves be influenced by paganism, >>western culture, etc. while they want to go back to an older way of life, >>following the Torah, adopting Hebrew names, identifying themselves with God's >>people, or the Israelites, etc.<< Some of these groups accept Elijah Muhammad's Yakub mythology. In my Social Problems classes, I refer to this mythology as a kind of "counter-racism." I see it as an ideology designed to attack the view, held by some factions of the KKK movement, that Blacks were the progeny of Jews and apes or the Mormon teaching that Blacks are descendents of the cursed Hamites (forgiven in 1967, I believe). >>As far as I can tell Malachi Z. York doesn't really focus on those things, >>incorporating Islamic elements, Pharonic elements, UFOs and plenty of other >>non-Biblical material. Apart from the similarity of names, I'm not convinced >>that the affinity with the other groups is all that deep.<< There is evidence that Fard Muhammad had some contact with York. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: What Convinced Me (was: Questions about Omniscience and related matters)
Dear Ron, I was 35 when I embraced the Faith. I was a seeker after transcendence since I was 12 or maybe 15. I tell the story of my conversion on my web-site.http://elainna.org/Spirit/Journey.html Unlike most of the Baha'is I know, I came to the faith through a series of visionary experiences. My first Baha'i book was "The Seven Valleys and The Four Valleys, my second, Proclamation to the Nations by Shoghi Effendi, and my third was Gleanings. Each of these books made a deep impression on me However it was the second which set up an internal conflict that finally brought me to the point of declaring. I was nearly torn apart by a combination of these books and my visions. Perhaps one of the things which helped me was my awareness of how ignorant I really was and a set of guide lines I created to guide my search for a true religion. The following is taken from my narrative. WHAT ARE THE CHARACTERISTICS OF A TRUE RELIGION? "By true, I meant something, which was understandable and would facilitate spiritual development on a personal and social level. I came up with the following: A true religion would be universal. It would offer something for everyone irrespective of his or her age, education, and cultural or social background. It would not be for the elite, neither would it succumb to populist views or special interest groups. A True religion would focus on spiritual education rather than on sin and the need for redemption. It would not set itself up as the arbiter between the value and worth of certain souls and the wickedness of others. A true religion would be as concerned with the welfare of the whole human race as it was with individuals. It would be part of the world, not some isolated, insulated, naval gazing cult. Finally, and possibly most important, A True religion would not necessarily agree with my preferences and expectations. It would not conform to my limited and biased point of view. I added this last stipulation because I knew I had outgrown nearly every belief I had previously held. Therefore, if I found something that was in complete accord with my beliefs and feelings, I would eventually cease to grow." You asked about doubts. Yes I have them but my chief doubts are about myself, my understanding and the Baha'i Community. Not being an intellectual or an academic, I prefer to focus on action rather than theory. For example the Tragedy in South-East Asia has claimed at least 100,000 souls and the people there desperately need help. I am praying along with another group of women on line. I wonder why no one has mentioned this tragedy on this list and if there are Baha'i Communities there? I would like it if the Faith was perfectly logical & rational and if my fellow Baha'is were more supportive and could instantly translate the Writings into action. However, it is very difficult for me to be critical of others when I know how far short of the standard I fall. Warm Wishes, Elainna The Doors are open at Elainna's New Place http://elainna.org The Wild Side http://elainnas-wild-side.net __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Rank of the Trustees of the Right of God
I remember reading a statement from the Universal House of Justice in which it said that the rank of the Trustees of the Huquq is higher than that of the Counsellors. I can't locate it, and wonder if any of you know where it is. Thanks Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
In a message dated 12/30/2004 5:49:34 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: RS: <> Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to assume that Abdul Baha used an interpreter becuase he could't understand English well without one? <>Why else would Abdu'l-Baha use an interpreter ? Dear Ron and Sandra, I think Abdu'l-Baha's knowledge of English may well have been adequate to understand people without an interpreter much of the time, at least by the time He left America. I suspect speaking English back to them may have been more of a problem. But when a translator got it wrong, He was often able to correct them. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Stanwood Cobb's books on line
In a message dated 12/30/2004 3:24:48 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Brentcito 'Little' Brent? __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
On Thu, 30 Dec 2004 13:28:08 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, Gilberto, [much deleted] Gilberto: > >>I think the picture gets more complex than that. I think in Judaism there > >>actually may be a date where they say the canon is closed and no more > >>prophets are coming.<< Mark: > Yes Gilberto: > >> [But] In Christian circles there is a charismatic movement which is even > >> getting into the Catholic Church.<< > It was already well established within Roman Catholicism in the 1970s. > > My Ph.D. dissertation was on the American pentecostal movement, including the > charismatics. Almost no pentecostals or charismatics (even among the > unconventional Weirwillites) would argue that the biblical canon has been > extended. Instead, they would say that continuing prophecy, tongues, > interpretations of tongues, words of knowledge, and words of wisdom function > within a "biblical" context to clarify and apply the scriptures. Gilberto: Ok. I guess I would emphasize that such groups are not saying that God is silent. And so it is not clear exactly how Bahais are saying that they are different. Mark: > The pre-pentecostal Catholic Apostolic and New Apostolic churches, like a few > other Christian churches and sects, have instituted various offices, > including prophets. However, those prophets are expected to apply, not to add > to, the "Bible," as they understood it. Gilberto: Yeah, I remember having a conversation a few years ago with someone who introduced himself as a "prophet". I think that might have been his background as well. Gilberto: > >>And the Catholic Church certainly has approved of many saints and > >>visionaries who are associeted with miracles and personal revelation. (The > >>messages from Fatima would be a good example).<< Mark: > Yes, but they are acting, and "revealing," within the framework of > established Roman Catholic dogma. It is up to the Papacy whether to accept > the legitimacy of a particular vision or series of visions. Gilberto: Sure but then the Bahais are doing the same thing. I mean, there are many Bahais who construe the attitude of other religions as being closed to further revelation or believing that God is silent or has stopped guiding mankind and that's substantially not true. The mainstream orthodox (at least not uncommon) view in Islam AND Christianity is that God still speaks to mankind in various ways. That doesn't mean that every Tom Dick and Harry should be aknowledged as the next prophet. And at least judging from your account the Bahai faith is similar: Gilberto: > >>(Does the Bahai faith have charismatic figures like that?) Mark: > There have been people like that. I knew one personally (the late Rob Pasca). > He was a good friend of mine (from Long Island) and one of the most > fascinating persons I have ever known. However, he was repeatedly cautioned > by Baha'i institutions not to represent his understandings as related to the > Baha'i Faith. Individual inspirations have no authority in a Baha'i context. > >>It seems to me that both the Bahai faith and Islam and Christianity are > >>saying that God is still active in the world providing guidance to > >>individuals in various ways. Islam is only saying that a very particular > >>way of doing that has ended.<< Mark: > Most branches of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism would reject additions to > their respective scriptures (the Qur'an, the Christian Bible, and the > Tanakh). So does the Baha'i Faith, but we accept the possibility of further > scriptures in later Dispensations. Gilberto: Sure, but functionally, for the next 1000 years or so, the Bahai faith will be at least as closed-mided about this as any other religion. [Hebrew Israelites, Hebrew Christians] Gilberto: > >>I'm not sure I would have included them [Nubian Islamic Hebrews or Malachai > >>Z York's group (whatever name it has this week) ] in the Hebrew > >>Israelites.<< > > Why not? > > >>I think the Nubian Islamic Hebrews used to be the Ansars. So they were led > >>by Dr. York and believed in the lastest Mahdi in the Sudan.<< > > Yes, and York claimed to have come up with the supposed "nineteen" (wahid) > formula before Rashad Khalifa. (If I were either of them, I wouldn't be > bragging about it!) Gilberto: > >>I've read a bunch about them and have talked to some in Detroit the past > >>year. They seemed really loose and syncretic in some ways. Accepting the > >>Quran but also the deity of Christ. Mixing stuff about UFOs and things. The > >>latest I've heard about them they have a compound somewhere in the South > >>and are building pyramids.<< Mark: > I have four of their books where they discuss those ideas. Gilberto: It seems to me that there are alot of groups which are Black, Bible Based, which really center on Follow the commandments of God. They seem to be following a basically conservative impulse. Saying the other churches and organizations have los
Stanwood Cobb's books on line
Two of Cobb's books are on line, "The Unity of Nations" and "Islamic Contributions to Civilization." http://bahai-library.com/etc/author.html Brentcito __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: What Convinced Me (was: Questions about Omniscience and related matters)
Mark wrote: > When you were in it, did they still have similar quasi-Gnostic teachings > (re: Satan, etc.) to when they were the Process Church of the Final > Judgement? As I recall, their teachings were pretty traditional. We didn't talk about Satan much. The focus was on service. Dave Lambert www.vintagerr.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Renewed Attack
Title: Message Renewed Attack: http://www.baztab.com/news/19656.php __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
If I'm not mistaken, a similar thing is reported in Dr. Afrukhtih's "Nine years memoirs" of Akka. Are any of Cobb's books on-line? Regards, Ahang. --- Brent Poirier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > " for > instance, the famous passage where Bah'u'llah sees tablet in His mind, > i do nopt thhink He actually 'sees a Tablet" but He chose that phrase > and image to try to communicate His reality to us." > > > There is an interesting record of a conversation in one of Stanwood Cobb's > books, I don't recall which, where the Master was asked "Do you know > everything" to which He replied "No, but when I need to know something it > appears before me as on a moving scroll." I don't recall the book, and this > is a paraphrase from memory. > > Brent __ Do you Yahoo!? The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! http://my.yahoo.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: What Convinced Me (was: Questions about Omniscience and related matters)
In a message dated 12/30/2004 1:46:10 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: "There is one other condition which should be mentioned. There arecertain former Bah whose actions do not necessarily constituteCovenant-breaking, but are seriously destructive. Where such people have shown that they are impervious to explanations or exhortations from the Bahinstitutions, continued association with them can be burdensome and can exert a spiritually corrosive effect on the faith of believers. In such cases the Head of the Faith may simply advise the Bah to leave them to their own devices." (4 April 2001 message from the House of Justice to all National Spiritual Assemblies, posted to the Net at http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m25764.html ) Dear Brent, An experience I have had, and I think this may be true for Ron as well is that sometimes the associating with Baha'is in perfectly good standing can be more corrosive to ones faith than associating with the folks mentioned above. For instance, while I find the Baha'i Discuss list more personally corrosive than I find TRB, though I wouldn't recommend anyone hang around the latter. What do we do in those cases, stop hanging around Baha'is? warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: What Convinced Me (was: Questions about Omniscience and related matters)
>> Could anyone else tell me, what stands out in your mind about why you >> converted. What was the thing that grabbed you adn convinced you. The other >> thing I keep wondering about is certainty. I freely admit, I have little >> certainly about anything. I really am amazed at the degree of certainty >> others have about religious matters. (This amazement of mine applies equally >> to folks of all religious backgrounds, not just Baha'is). How can you be >> certain. Do you ever have doubts.>> The first requirement for the attainment of certitude, is possessing a thirst for certitude. If one does not believe certitude is attainable, there won't be a thirst for it. There is a Sufi poem that says if you want to find water, "Seek thirst, and water from the very ground will burst." So being thirsty is a spiritual attainment. The thirst is a vehicle that carries you over the difficulties and challenges, and many inner changes to go through. Mirza Abu'l-Fazl said that he read the Iqan 18 times with the eye of intellect and it was a string of meaningless words; then he read it a 19th time with spiritual eyes and it opened the divine mysteries for him. The Iqan has whatever we are thirsting for, and as we progress spiritually, it yields more to our search. So I urge your careful prayerful study of that Book. Its guidance will lead you to what you are seeking. Even the first two pages give the essentials: To be detached from all that is earthly including idle talk, and to cease to regard the words and deeds of mortal men as a standard for the true understanding and recognition of God. So it is detachment not only from worldly goods, but from opinions. It is my understanding that there is another essential element, identified by the Guardian as the foundation of human spirituality: “The thing the German believers must do is to deepen themselves in the Covenants of Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha. Mere intellectual understanding of the teachings is not enough. Deep spirituality is essential, and the foundation of true spirituality is steadfastness in the Covenant.” (Shoghi Effendi's secretary on his behalf, letter dated 31 March 1949, "The Light of Divine Guidance," Volume 2, p. 83) I would also like to draw attention to one element in particular in the guidance for the true seeker of certitude, given in the Iqan, and that is seeking right company: "With all his heart he [the true seeker] should avoid fellowship with evil-doers". "He should treasure the companionship of them that have renounced the world, and regard avoidance of boastful and worldly people a precious benefit." (The Book of Certitude, p. 194). Associating with people whose spiritual condition is harmful, will take you back two steps for every step you take forward. The House of Justice mentions this in one of its letters: "There is one other condition which should be mentioned. There are certain former Bahá'ís whose actions do not necessarily constitute Covenant-breaking, but are seriously destructive. Where such people have shown that they are impervious to explanations or exhortations from the Bahá'í institutions, continued association with them can be burdensome and can exert a spiritually corrosive effect on the faith of believers. In such cases the Head of the Faith may simply advise the Bahá'ís to leave them to their own devices." (4 April 2001 message from the House of Justice to all National Spiritual Assemblies, posted to the Net at http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist/m25764.html ) So in answer to your question I would suggest: 1. In the attainment of certitude, there is no better source than reflective study of the Iqan and putting its counsels into practice 2. Firmness in the Covenants of Baha'u'llah and the Master is the foundation of true spirituality 3. Avoidance of people who have a harmful effect on one's faith and certitude. Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
Hi, Gilberto, At 08:55 AM 12/30/2004, you wrote: >>I'm not sure what you mean exactly. Even with the few thelemites I've >>communicated with, I wasn't sure if they were "realists" when it came to >>their own beliefs. Are you saying it is plausible that Crowley really did >>have some kind of spiritual experience with an entity which led him to write >>down his various "scriptures" and told him about the beginning of the Age of >>Horus and led him to get into all this sex magick?<< I don't know if he had any spiritual communications. However, Thelema, like most systems, strikes me as internally consistent. What I was saying is that, were I not a Baha'i, I would be comfortable being a Thelemite. Crowley's views have always appealed to my sensibilities. (Sex magick is not emphasized Thelema - at least not as it is generally understood. The only time when sex magick is even discussed is in the tenth degree initiation, which most Thelemites in the Ordo Templi Orientis never attain.) >>I mean, have you heard the anatomical interpretations of the mouth of Isis >>and the eye of Horus are? And in the Gnostic Mass (at least in some of the >>groups who look to Crowley) do you know what some of the ingredients are in >>the "body and blood" are? Ick!<< Yes, but Crowley regarded it as mythopoeia. >>But I have this visceral reaction to the Crowley stuff as just being wrong.<< Most people would probably agree with you. ;-) Of course, I am not defending Thelema. I am only saying that the myth system he created appeals to me. >>Is it really a sincere spiritual path or is it just an excuse to play dress >>up and have orgies?<< With a reasonable degree of certainty, I can say that there are no orgies in Thelema - at least not in the Ordo Templi Orientis (can't speak for the other Thelemite organizations). Anyone who attempted to have an orgy, and connect it with the OTO, would be kicked out. >>I think the picture gets more complex than that. I think in Judaism there >>actually may be a date where they say the canon is closed and no more >>prophets are coming.<< Yes >>In Christian circles there is a charismatic movement which is even getting >>into the Catholic Church.<< It was already well established within Roman Catholicism in the 1970s. My Ph.D. dissertation was on the American pentecostal movement, including the charismatics. Almost no pentecostals or charismatics (even among the unconventional Weirwillites) would argue that the biblical canon has been extended. Instead, they would say that continuing prophecy, tongues, interpretations of tongues, words of knowledge, and words of wisdom function within a "biblical" context to clarify and apply the scriptures. The pre-pentecostal Catholic Apostolic and New Apostolic churches, like a few other Christian churches and sects, have instituted various offices, including prophets. However, those prophets are expected to apply, not to add to, the "Bible," as they understood it. >>And the Catholic Church certainly has approved of many saints and >>visionaries who are associeted with miracles and personal revelation. (The >>messages from Fatima would be a good example).<< Yes, but they are acting, and "revealing," within the framework of established Roman Catholic dogma. It is up to the Papacy whether to accept the legitimacy of a particular vision or series of visions. >>And similarly in Islam, although the Wahabis might try to paint a different >>picture, it seems to me that orthodox traditional "mainstream" Islam also has >>a concept of awliya who also can experience kashf and ilham and play a >>charismatic role in the world.<< Aren't those revelations expected to conform to the Qur'an? >>(Does the Bahai faith have charismatic figures like that?)<< There have been people like that. I knew one personally (the late Rob Pasca). He was a good friend of mine (from Long Island) and one of the most fascinating persons I have ever known. However, he was repeatedly cautioned by Baha'i institutions not to represent his understandings as related to the Baha'i Faith. Individual inspirations have no authority in a Baha'i context. >>It seems to me that both the Bahai faith and Islam and Christianity are >>saying that God is still active in the world providing guidance to >>individuals in various ways. Islam is only saying that a very particular way >>of doing that has ended.<< Most branches of Islam, Christianity, and Judaism would reject additions to their respective scriptures (the Qur'an, the Christian Bible, and the Tanakh). So does the Baha'i Faith, but we accept the possibility of further scriptures in later Dispensations. >>But then is the Bahai faith one more religion next to the rest which appeals >>to a certain kind of mind? Or are you that Bahais necessarily have that >>universal perceptive power?<< My understanding is that `Abdu'l-Baha was making a similar point to the Bab. He was referring to the intende
re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
Brent, At 06:50 AM 12/30/2004, you wrote: >>There is an interesting record of a conversation in one of Stanwood Cobb's >>books, I don't recall which, where the Master was asked "Do you know >>everything" to which He replied "No, but when I need to know something it >>appears before me as on a moving scroll." I don't recall the book, and this >>is a paraphrase from memory.<< That was the way Stanwood explained it to a few of us who gathered around him at Green Acre. The wording, as I recall it, was, "No, but if I need to know something, it is pictured before me as if on a moving screen.," The story is actually in at least two of his books. With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: What Convinced Me (was: Questions about Omniscience and related matters)
Hi, Dave, At 08:42 AM 12/30/2004, you wrote: >>I was a Quaker for many years, and I spent about ten years in the Foundation >>Faith of God, a church which is a fringe group and in many of the cult >>books, but which I found to contain some of the truest Christians I have ever >>met.<< When you were in it, did they still have similar quasi-Gnostic teachings (re: Satan, etc.) to when they were the Process Church of the Final Judgement? With regards, Mark A. Foster * 15 Sites: http://markfoster.net "Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger" -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Perennial Bab?
On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 23:00:35 -0600, Mark A. Foster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi, Gilberto, Mark: However, I have often found that what strikes me as plausible is greeted with astonishment by many others. To me, Thelema (Crowley) is plausible. Gilberto: I'm not sure what you mean exactly. Even with the few thelemites I've communicated with, I wasn't sure if they were "realists" when it came to their own beliefs. Are you saying it is plausible that Crowley really did have some kind of spiritual experience with an entity which led him to write down his various "scriptures" and told him about the beginning of the Age of Horus and led him to get into all this sex magick? I mean, have you heard the anatomical interpretations of the mouth of Isis and the eye of Horus are? And in the Gnostic Mass (at least in some of the groups who look to Crowley) do you know what some of the ingredients are in the "body and blood" are? Ick! Maybe I'm being a bit too subjective and unfair. I mean, I think I have a certain respect for something like Santeria especially as a form of resistance so the idea of dancing around with chicken blood on you being mounted by an orisha seems messy, but it doesn't offend me. But I have this visceral reaction to the Crowley stuff as just being wrong. If you want to say you like Nietzsche or Hermeticism or secret societies affiliated with Fremasonry that's one thing. But when I get to reading about what seems like shameless hedonism with nasty rituals involving bodily fluids I have a hard time accepting that it is a valid way to the divine. I guess you can connect it back to the trust issue. Is it really a sincere spiritual path or is it just an excuse to play dress up and have orgies? Mark: > On the other hand, religious movements which argue, in one way or another, > for the termination of prophetic revelation at some time in the past (such as > most of the traditional branches of the Judaisms, Christianities, and Islams) > strike me as highly implausible. Obviously, you would disagree with me. Gilberto: I think the picture gets more complex than that. I think in Judaism there actually may be a date where they say the canon is closed and no more prophets are coming. In Christian circles there is a charismatic movement which is even getting into the Catholic Church. And the Catholic Church certainly has approved of many saints and visionaries who are associeted with miracles and personal revelation. (The messages from Fatima would be a good example). And similarly in Islam, although the Wahabis might try to paint a different picture, it seems to me that orthodox traditional "mainstream" Islam also has a concept of awliya who also can experience kashf and ilham and play a charismatic role in the world. (Does the Bahai faith have charismatic figures like that?) It seems to me that both the Bahai faith and Islam and Christianity are saying that God is still active in the world providing guidance to individuals in various ways. Islam is only saying that a very particular way of doing that has ended. > "The differences among the religions of the world are due to the varying > types of minds. So long as the powers of the mind are various, it is certain > that men's judgements and opinions will differ one from another. If, > however, one single, universal perceptive power be introduced - a power > encompassing all the rest - those differing opinions will merge, and a > spiritual harmony and oneness will become apparent," > -- `Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, p.63 But then is the Bahai faith one more religion next to the rest which appeals to a certain kind of mind? Or are you that Bahais necessarily have that universal perceptive power? Gilberto: > >>Yeah, I actually find groups like that pretty interesting. There are > >>several interesting variations too..the Ethiopian Orthodox Chuch (I gather) > >>has more of a "Jewish" emphasis than some other groups.<< Mark: > The Ethiopian Orthodox Church is probably the most tolerant of the > Monophysites and has tended to de-emphasize missionary activity. I didn't realize that any of them were big on missionary activity. I'm not saying you are wrong but the little I've read suggested the opposite. I think they were expanding efforts in Jamaica to try to properly teach the Rastafarians. What I'd read struck me as really smooth. So instead of saying that Halie Selassie was God they were trying to suggest that the was a living icon which seems like a cool idea. Gilberto: > >>So do the Hebrew Israelites and Rastafarians. Then at the another end you > >>have Anglo-Israelite groups too which can get kind of scary.<< Mark: > Some of the Hebrew Israelites groups, such as the Nubian Islamic Hebrews, > have a habit of frequently changing their names. I have had long > conversations with some of them in New York's Penn Station. Gilberto: I'm not sure I would have included them in the Hebrew Israelite
RE: What Convinced Me (was: Questions about Omniscience and related matters)
>>Could anyone else tell me, what stands out in your mind about why you converted. What was the thing that grabbed you adn convinced you.<< I was raised in a mainstream Protestant church, and never found it satisfying. I spent many years exploring various religions. I was a Quaker for many years, and I spent about ten years in the Foundation Faith of God, a church which is a fringe group and in many of the “cult” books, but which I found to contain some of the truest Christians I have ever met. I first heard of the Bahá’í Faith in 1971, and had Bahá’í friends at various times throughout my life, but although I knew and admired the Faith I did not take it seriously until 2001. When I began studying it seriously and reading the writings, I “just knew.” Having studied the Bible for years, I felt it was obvious that Bahá’u’lláh and Jesus spoke with the same voice. I felt I had always been a Bahá’í, but simply hadn’t realized it. Dave Lambert www.vintagerr.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
" for instance, the famous passage where Bah'u'llah sees tablet in His mind, i do nopt thhink He actually 'sees a Tablet" but He chose that phrase and image to try to communicate His reality to us." There is an interesting record of a conversation in one of Stanwood Cobb's books, I don't recall which, where the Master was asked "Do you know everything" to which He replied "No, but when I need to know something it appears before me as on a moving scroll." I don't recall the book, and this is a paraphrase from memory. Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
Dear Brent, On this point I would disagree with you...; if you are saying "Baha'u'llah did not see a Maiden" and I believe that is what you are saying. Shoghi Effendi does not say the "images" were symbols conjured up by the Manifestations to relate Their experience. He says the "images" were symbols of the "Most Great Spirit". I feel the Guardian is saying that although the "images" appeared in different forms they all were "symbolically" the ONE "Most Great Spirit". My understanding is that the various images describe the "form" or appearance of the "Most Great Spirit" as visualized/imagined by each of the Manifestations. Lovingly, Sandra You wrote: <> It is my understanding that there was no Maiden. Shoghi Effendi writes of Baha'u'llah's vision of the Maiden in the Siyah-Chal that the Maiden, and all the other images used for the earlier Manifestations of God, were symbols: ...at so critical an hour and under such appalling circumstances the "Most Great Spirit," as designated by Himself, and symbolized in the Zoroastrian, the Mosaic, the Christian, and Muhammadan Dispensations by the Sacred Fire, the Burning Bush, the Dove and the Angel Gabriel respectively, descended upon, and revealed itself, personated by a "Maiden," to the agonized soul of Bahá'u'llá (Shoghi Effendi, God Passes By, p. 100) <> __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: Questions about Omniscience and related matters
SC: <>To my way of thinking to deny the Power of God to express His Will through a "human" Mouthpiece, as were all His Manifestations, is to deny all Creation. <> RS: How so? Inspite of all our [human] observations and subsequent replications of principles in Creation it only serves to remind us of our own limitations and the realization of a Power greater than any human endowment. Once this realization is attained it then becomes simply apparent that this Power is "capable" of anything within human imagination. RS: <> And it still violates Occam's Razor. <> That should concern me? "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." RS: <> Wouldn't it be a lot simpler to assume that Abdul Baha used an interpreter becuase he could't understand English well without one? <> Why else would Abdu'l-Baha use an interpreter ? Lovingly, Sandra __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
What Convinced Me (was: Questions about Omniscience and related matters)
>>Could anyone else tell me, what stands out in your mind about why you converted. What was the thing that grabbed you adn convinced you.<< I was raised as a Catholic, and had no interest in changing my religion, at the time I first heard of the Baha'i Faith. A friend in my college dormitory told me about the Faith, and I thought it was weird. But then I began reading the Hidden Words, and the Kitab-i-Iqan, and the spiritual power and authority in those words was obvious. It was clear to me that the Author of those books wrote with God's Pen. This realization was a terrible wrench and shock to me, because I was very comfortable in the Catholic church; I didn't want anything to upset my faith; I wanted to stay in my rut. I resisted conversion for about two years; during that time I asked a lot of questions, and prayed a lot to Jesus to show me the path to follow. In the end, it was Christ's response to my prayers, and the power of Baha'u'llah's words, that convinced me that He was Who He claimed to be. I actually did not want to become a Baha'i, but once I believed in Baha'u'llah, there was no choice. Tim Nolan__Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:bahai-st@list.jccc.edu Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
