Re: Freedom of religion
That is the first time I have heard that story. However, it is consistent, I believe, with this his statement which follows. "Nothing short of the spirit of a true BahÃ'Ã can hope to reconcile the principles of mercy and justice, of freedom and submission, of the sanctity of the right of the individual and of self-surrender, of vigilance, discretion and prudence on the one hand and fellowship, candour and courage on the other."(Shoghi Effendi: BahÃ'Ã Administration, pp. 63-64) (Compilations, The Compilation of Compilations vol II, p. 52) - Original Message - From: "Brent Poirier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Baha'i Studies" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 4:22 PM Subject: re: Freedom of religion > > I heard that Shoghi Effendi at one point removed a person from the Cause without declaring him an enemy of the Faith or a Covenant-breaker, based on the verse "leave that soul to himself". That is, that there was precedent for the House of Justice removing a person from the rolls. > > Brent > __ > You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Baha'i Studies is available through the following: > Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st > News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st > Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist > Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] > New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] > __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
re: Freedom of religion
I heard that Shoghi Effendi at one point removed a person from the Cause without declaring him an enemy of the Faith or a Covenant-breaker, based on the verse "leave that soul to himself". That is, that there was precedent for the House of Justice removing a person from the rolls. Brent __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of Religion
Good answer Susan. Concise. To the point. Covers the bases. That's a new one for me regarding Charlemagne. Didn't know he converted the Saxons. Interestingly one of the contexts of "slay them" is: 190. And fight for the cause of God against those who fight against you: butcommit not the injustice of attacking them first: God loveth not suchinjustice: 191. And kill them wherever ye shall find them, and eject them from whateverplace they have ejected you; for civil discord is worse than carnage: yetattack them not at the sacred Mosque, unless they attack you therein; but ifthey attack you, slay them. Such the reward of the infidels. 192. But if they desist, then verily God is Gracious, Merciful.(Rodwell, Sura 2, the Cow) And although the Qur'an is full of repeated warnings such as "Let there be no compulsion in Religion" (The Qur'an (Rodwell tr), Sura 2 - The Cow) and as are found in the verses following and verse 193 from Sura 2, the Muslims, unfortunately continued to carry forward with the sword. Man truly is by creation hasty; 70:20 When evil befalleth him, impatient; But when good falleth to his lot, tenacious. Not so the prayerful, Who are ever constant at their prayers; (Rodwell, The Steps) Richard. - Original Message - From: Susan Maneck To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 9:14 AM Subject: Re: Freedom of Religion "Here are some of my thoughts on this. The Qur'an also states that Muslims should not dispute with people of "The Book" (implying Jews and Christians). I would think that not disputing includes not killing." Dear Patti, There are plenty of other ways of understanding these passages in the Qur'an than allowing forcible conversion or killing people for their religion. The passages in question were written to allow Muslims to go to war against those who were persecuting them. Still, this doesn't change the fact that they are often used differently by others. Charlemagne used the passage "make them come in" at the end of Gospel parable which spoke of the groom issuing orders to invite poor people to a wedding feast when the leading citizens failed to show up as justification for the forcible conversion of the Saxons. I'm sure Jesus would have been truly amazed. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of Religion
"Here are some of my thoughts on this. The Qur'an also states that Muslims should not dispute with people of "The Book" (implying Jews and Christians). I would think that not disputing includes not killing." Dear Patti, There are plenty of other ways of understanding these passages in the Qur'an than allowing forcible conversion or killing people for their religion. The passages in question were written to allow Muslims to go to war against those who were persecuting them. Still, this doesn't change the fact that they are often used differently by others. Charlemagne used the passage "make them come in" at the end of Gospel parable which spoke of the groom issuing orders to invite poor people to a wedding feast when the leading citizens failed to show up as justification for the forcible conversion of the Saxons. I'm sure Jesus would have been truly amazed. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of Religion
"That is certainly not what they would say they were doing. What they do is take the verse "kill the infidel wherever you find him" which was revealed later, as abrogating "let there be no compulsion in religion." But let me stress, only some Muslims do this. " Susan, Here are some of my thoughts on this. The Qur'an also states that Muslims should not dispute with people of "The Book" (implying Jews and Christians). I would think that not disputing includes not killing. Additionally, I think a crucial issue here is who decides who the infidel (or unbeliever) is? It is clear in both Christian and Muslim scripture that in Gods judgment there are many who think they are (or declare to be) believers and are not true believers. Christ: "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matthew 7:20-23 Muhammad: "Of the people there are some who say: "We believe in Allah and the Last Day," but they do not (really) believe. Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves and realize (it) not!" Surah 2 Additionally, Muhammad writes, "O ye who believe! when ye go abroad in the Cause of Allah, investigate carefully, and say not to anyone who offers you a salutation: "Thou art none of a believer!" Coveting the perishable goods of this life: with Allah are profits and spoils abundant." (The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 4). In this case, it appears that a believer does not have the right to declare someone a non-believer and then kill them in a fight for land or property. By taking a step beyond those who say they are believers but are not, I think it is fair to say that there are those who do not claim to be believers that have the status of believers, for example in the quote from Christ above He claims as a believer: "he that doeth the will of my Father". Patti PS: Bahaullah points out that: "A true believer is likened unto the philosophers stone." Addressing subsequently his listener, he saith: "Hast thou ever seen the philosophers stone?" Reflect, how this symbolic language, more eloquent than any speech, however direct, testifieth to the non-existence of a true believer. Such is the testimony of Sadiq. (The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 78) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of Religion
Where in the Quoran does it say "kill the infidel wherever you find him". It doesn't come up in Ocean. I think this is what you are looking for: That is because those who misbelieve follow falsehood, and those who believe follow the truth from their Lord. Thus does God set forth for men their parables.And when ye meet those who misbelieve-then striking off heads until ye have massacred them, and bind fast the bonds! (The Qur'an, Sura 47 - Mohammed, Also Called Fight) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of Religion
Where in the Quoran does it say "kill the infidel wherever you find him". It doesn't come up in Ocean. Thanks Mike S 9:5. But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. S. 9:5 must be read in its context, the Pagans broke the peace treaty and attempted to expel the Prophet Muhammad from Medina. Sura 9:13 explains this: S 9.13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe! Here are some Ayat's that put certain questionable commands to kill in perspective: S. 60:8 Allah does not enjoin you from befriending those who do not fight you because of religion, and do not evict you from your homes. You may befriend them and be equitable towards them. GOD loves the equitable. S. 4:90 Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then Allah gives you no excuse to fight them. S. 8:61 If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient. __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of Religion
Read the ninth Chapter of the Quran, Michael. I think is should be there. Warmest regards, Iskandar On Wed, 16 Jun 2004, Michael Alcorn wrote: > Dear Susan, > Where in the Quoran does it say "kill the infidel wherever you find him". It doesn't > come up in Ocean. > Thanks > Mike __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of Religion
Dear Susan, Where in the Quoran does it say "kill the infidel wherever you find him". It doesn't come up in Ocean. Thanks Mike - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Baha'i Studies Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 2004 6:27 AM Subject: Re: Freedom of Religion In a message dated 6/15/2004 9:44:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Does this mean that some Muslims believe that human understandingis more authoritative than the Qur'an? If they believe that any verse of theQur'an can be abrogated because of worldly circumstance, then they believethat all verses of the Qur'an are subject to abrogation, based on human interpretation.Dear Tim, That is certainly not what they would say they were doing. What they do is take the verse "kill the infidel wherever you find him" which was revealed later, as abrogating "let there be no compulsion in religion." But let me stress, only some Muslims do this. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of Religion
In a message dated 6/15/2004 9:44:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Does this mean that some Muslims believe that human understanding is more authoritative than the Qur'an? If they believe that any verse of the Qur'an can be abrogated because of worldly circumstance, then they believe that all verses of the Qur'an are subject to abrogation, based on human interpretation. Dear Tim, That is certainly not what they would say they were doing. What they do is take the verse "kill the infidel wherever you find him" which was revealed later, as abrogating "let there be no compulsion in religion." But let me stress, only some Muslims do this. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of religion
In a message dated 6/15/2004 3:31:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 'If thy Lord had willed, whoever is in the earth would have believed, all of them, all together. Wouldst thou then constrain the people until they are believers?' (Sura 10:99) I am wondering what the Muslim clergy point of view is on the interpretation of this verse. Is this an accurate translation from the Arabic? This verse seems to imply freedom of religion. Dear Larry, The verse "Let there be no compulsion in religion" does as much as well but I have heard some Muslims argue that this verse was abrogated once the umma was formed. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
