Re: posting question about Recognition Manifestation

2004-11-24 Thread Smaneck



In a message dated 11/24/2004 6:44:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
It was something to the effect that if someone (i.e.another believer) asked a Baha'i to do a service for the cause if is as ifBaha'u'llah (or maybe it was 'Abdul-Baha) Himself asked them to do it.  Doesanyone know where I might find that quote?
Dear Patti, 
 
I think you may have in mind the Hidden Word which says if any of His servants asks *anything* of us (not just service to the Cause) we should regard their face as His Face. 
 
warmest, Susan 
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Re: posting question about Recognition Manifestation

2004-11-24 Thread Smaneck



In a message dated 11/24/2004 2:58:53 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Explain to me the nuances of "serve" as compared to "encourage, support". I always understood service as a baha'i as to help/assist an endeavor. This ,of course, IMO, can take a lot of different forms including physically serving, financially aiding, morally supporting, etc. Is this correct or am I misinterpreting the word?
 
Dear Fairborz, 
 
Usually it denotes aiding in a suppordinate capacity. 
 
warmest, Susan
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Re: posting question about Recognition Manifestation

2004-11-24 Thread Patti Goebel
> As you can see you have some literal phrases in here... "first
> duty"... and "serve those that have recognized".  In my
> subsequent responses I've responded to what I thought was your
> "interpretation" of the "found" passage. Which does not, in
> fact, combine those two phrases of "first duty" or "serve
> those that have recognized".
>

This leads me to think of another quote I focused on a few years back, but
can't find now.  It was something to the effect that if someone (i.e.
another believer) asked a Baha'i to do a service for the cause if is as if
Baha'u'llah (or maybe it was 'Abdul-Baha) Himself asked them to do it.  Does
anyone know where I might find that quote?

Thanks,

Patti


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Re: posting question about Recognition Manifestation

2004-11-24 Thread Sandra Chamberlain
Dear Fariborz,
Thank you for your patience.  It's sometimes difficult for me 
to succinctly articulate my own rationale!

I feel that our dialogue has definitely evolved (as it should 
be - a good thing!)

<> Explain to me the nuances of "serve" as compared to 
"encourage, support". I always understood service as a baha'i 
as to help/assist an endeavor. This ,of course, IMO, can take 
a lot of different forms including physically serving, 
financially aiding, morally supporting, etc. Is
this correct or am I misinterpreting the word? <>

To begin: in your post on the 20th you said: <>There was a 
posting sometime back about the first duty is to recognize the 
manifestation for today and to serve those that have 
recognized the manifestation.<>

As you can see you have some literal phrases in here... "first 
duty"... and "serve those that have recognized".  In my 
subsequent responses I've responded to what I thought was your 
"interpretation" of the "found" passage. Which does not, in 
fact, combine those two phrases of "first duty" or "serve 
those that have recognized".

Again, using your initial phraseology "serve those that have 
recognized"... would suggest (literally) a required obligation 
of "servitude" towards those individuals - particularly so in 
combination with the qualification of "first duty".  So the 
difference lies in whether the "service" rendered is 
"obligatory" or whether it is a natural impulse on the part of 
the "servant"...

Now, with regard to the passage from POB...  The Blessed 
Beauty has, imo, made the service of -promotion- (the 
translation of the Guardian being "promote") OBLIGATORY on His 
followers.  And, yet, He also says: "Happy is the man that 
hearkeneth and observeth My counsel." which suggests to me 
that it is more praisworthy to "promote" based on spiritual 
impulse as opposed to a sense of obligation or perceived 
retribution.

To "promote" simply means to "advance" or move forward/upwards 
that can be accomplished many ways in varying degrees.  Used 
in the context of this discussion "service" (because it is 
self-motivated) could be anything from dropping coins in a box 
to martyrdom...

In my heart and mind the "measure" of service and indeed, 
everything we do... lies in these three words:  Purity of 
motive.

lovingly, Sandra

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Re: posting question about Recognition Manifestation

2004-11-24 Thread Evolvinghuman



Thank you. It's getting clearer. Explain to me the nuances of "serve" as 
compared to "encourage, support". I always understood service as a baha'i as to 
help/assist an endeavor. This ,of course, IMO, can take a lot of different forms 
including physically serving, financially aiding, morally supporting, etc. Is 
this correct or am I misinterpreting the word?
Fariborz
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Re: posting question about Recognition Manifestation

2004-11-24 Thread Sandra Chamberlain
Dear Fariborz,
<> However, taken as a general mandate, one can interpret 
"whosoever ariseth for the triumph
of My cause" can be interpreted as fellow believers as well.<>

I would agree with this. Again, with the qualification of 
encouragement and support rather than "serve".  To be more 
explicit:  we can "serve" the Cause by encouraging and 
supporting (through combined effort; financially, etc.) other 
believers who arise... i.e.: pioneers, travel teachers, 
institutions, etc.

<>I am not sure I would interpret the statement to mean a king 
that may embrace the principles
but not recognize manifestation? Can you expound please?<>

Hu, firstly, Baha'u'llah did not -place upon- the king the 
condition of "recognition" or "acceptance" of the 
Manifestation or Revelation.

Secondly, the prerequisite Baha'u'llah does establish is that 
such a king "...will, for the sake of God, arise for the 
triumph of this wronged, this oppressed people." (of the 
Earth)

Third, it's as though, Baha'u'llah then assures the king/s 
that His followers (Baha'is) will "promote" (assist, 
encourage, support, etc.) that effort.

The last two sentences of this passage, I feel, IS addressed 
to the Baha'is: "Happy is the man that hearkeneth and 
observeth My counsel. Woe unto him that faileth to fulfil My 
wish."  It is as though He is saying "I'm making this 
commitment on your behalf... do not disappoint Me!"

On a much smaller scale... for several years the Baha'is of a 
large Alaskan community annually "recognized" an individual in 
the community-at-large who, through selfless devotion, 
rendered a "service" to the community.  They were honored with 
a banquet and received a plaque.  These were well publicized 
events and appreciated by the recipients as well as their 
family, friends, and colleagues; and the general public.  To 
my knowledge, only one of these recipients, later embraced the 
Faith.

lovingly, Sandra

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Re: posting question about Recognition Manifestation

2004-11-23 Thread Evolvinghuman
Dearest Sandra,

 Thanks for taking time out to look at this in detail.
1)I do agree that in the context of the address to a king it does not make 
sense to generalize it. However, taken as a general mandate, one can interpret 
"whosoever ariseth for the triumph of My cause" can be interpreted as fellow 
believers as well. 
2)I am not sure I would interpret the statement to mean a king that may embrace 
the principles but not recognize manifestation? Can you expound please?

Fariborz

 "...promote the welfare..." of  "Such a king" (or 
leader} -who may embrace the Principles of the Faith and yet, 
not "recognize the manifestation"   IS NOT the same as your 
reference

To:  "...one should serve those that believe..."


Quotation: "They who follow Me must strive, under all circumstances, to
promote the welfare of whosoever will arise for the triumph of
My Cause, and must at all times prove their devotion and
fidelity unto him."


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Re: posting question about Recognition Manifestation

2004-11-23 Thread Sandra Chamberlain
Dear Fariborz,
Knowing how frustrating it can be to retrieve a special quote, 
I'm happy this is what you were looking for.

However, if I may, I'd like to point out - in consideration of 
language barriers - And, without doubt you are much further 
advanced than I in mastering languages...

To:  "...promote the welfare..." of  "Such a king" (or 
leader} -who may embrace the Principles of the Faith and yet, 
not "recognize the manifestation"   IS NOT the same as your 
reference

To:  "...one should serve those that believe..."
Without doubt we should encourage, support and honor such 
efforts -those that uplift the oppressed of humanity. 
Remembering that this particular passage is addressed to the 
Kings of the Earth.

lovingly,  Sandra 

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Re: posting question about Recognition Manifestation

2004-11-22 Thread Evolvinghuman
This is it! Thank you, thank you, thank you!
"They who follow Me must strive, under all circumstances, to
promote the welfare of whosoever will arise for the triumph of
My Cause, and must at all times prove their devotion and
fidelity unto him."

Fariborz

In a message dated 11/21/2004 7:21:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, "Sandra 
Chamberlain" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

>Dear Fariborz,
>
>Personally, I cannot recall a phrase which implies "...after
>the Recognition one should serve those that believe..."  The
>closest would be directives to the Institutions to "serve the
>servants".  Otherwise, those references to "serve" that I've
>located seem to address the willingness to serve humanity (if
>you will) and exemplify the Teachings by our deeds.  Service
>in isolation would not achieve the aim of sharing the
>Revelation of Baha'u'llah by word or deed, as appealing as
>that might be!
>
>lovingly,  Sandra
>
>A few more quotes:
>
>A DESCRIPTION OF THE KITAB-I-AQDAS BY SHOGHI EFFENDI
>
>TAKEN FROM GOD PASSES BY, HIS HISTORY OF THE FIRST BAHÁ'Í
>CENTURY
>
>(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 11)
>
>
>
>. Bahá'u'lláh exhorts His followers to consort, with amity and
>concord and without
>
>discrimination, with the adherents of all religions; warns
>them to guard against fanaticism, sedition, pride, dispute and
>contention; inculcates upon them immaculate cleanliness,
>
>strict truthfulness, spotless chastity, trustworthiness,
>hospitality, fidelity, courtesy, forbearance, justice and
>fairness; counsels them to be "even as the fingers of one hand
>and the limbs of one body"; calls upon them to arise and serve
>His Cause; and assures them of His undoubted aid.
>
>
>
>(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 14)
>
>
>
>We cherish the hope that one of the kings of the earth will,
>for the sake of God, arise for the triumph of this wronged,
>this oppressed people. Such a king will be eternally extolled
>and glorified. God hath prescribed unto this people the duty
>of aiding whosoever will aid them, of serving his best
>interests, and of demonstrating to him their abiding loyalty.
>They who follow Me must strive, under all circumstances, to
>promote the welfare of whosoever will arise for the triumph of
>My Cause, and must at all times prove their devotion and
>fidelity unto him. Happy is the man that hearkeneth and
>observeth My counsel. Woe unto him that faileth to fulfil My
>wish.
>
>
>
>(Baha'u'llah, The Proclamation of Baha'u'llah, p. 13-15)
>
>
>
>The fourth Glad-Tidings
>
>
>
>Should any of the kings -- may God aid them -- arise to
>protect and help this oppressed people, all must vie with one
>another in loving and in serving him. This matter is incumbent
>upon everyone. Well is it with them that act accordingly.
>
>
>
>(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 22)
>
>
>
>O peoples of the world! Forsake all evil, hold fast that which
>is good. Strive to be shining examples unto all mankind, and
>true reminders of the virtues of God amidst men. He that
>riseth to serve My Cause should manifest My wisdom, and bend
>every effort to banish ignorance from the earth. Be united in
>counsel, be one in thought. Let each morn be better than its
>eve and each morrow richer than its yesterday. Man's merit
>lieth in service and virtue and not in the pageantry of wealth
>and riches. Take heed that your words be purged from idle
>fancies and worldly desires and your deeds be cleansed from
>craftiness and suspicion. Dissipate not the wealth of your
>precious lives in the pursuit of evil and corrupt affection,
>nor let your endeavours be spent in promoting your personal
>interest. Be generous in your days of plenty, and be patient
>in the hour of loss. Adversity is followed by success and
>rejoicings follow woe. Guard against idleness and sloth, and
>cling unto that which profiteth mankind, whether young or old,
>whether high or low. Beware lest ye sow tares of dissension
>among men or plant thorns of doubt in pure and radiant hearts.
>
>
>
>(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 138)
>
>
>
>Arise thou to serve the Cause of thy Lord; then give the
>people the joyful tidings concerning this resplendent Light
>whose revelation hath been announced by God through His
>Prophets and Messengers. Admonish everyone moreover to observe
>prudence as ordained by Him, and in the Name of God advise
>them, saying: It behoveth every one in this Day of God to
>dedicate himself to the teaching of the Cause with utmost
>prudence and steadfastness. Should he discover a pure soil,
>let him sow the seed of the Word of God, otherwise it would be
>preferable to observe silence.
>
>
>
>(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 242)
>
>
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Re: posting question about Recognition Manifestation

2004-11-21 Thread Don Calkins
At 5:26 PM -0500 11/21/04, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>Is there a line somewhere in Aqdas or elsewhere that says after the
>Recognition one should serve those that believe?   Fariborz
>__

The only thing I am aware of that ties recognition of the Manifestation
directly to service is the following on page 33 of the Aqdas -
 Be not dismayed, O peoples of the world, when
the day-star of My beauty is set, and the heaven of My
tabernacle is concealed from your eyes.  Arise to further
My Cause, and to exalt My Word amongst men.  We
are with you at all times, and shall strengthen you
through the power of truth.  We are truly almighty.
Whoso hath recognized Me will arise and serve Me
with such determination that the powers of earth and
heaven shall be unable to defeat his purpose.

However, note the following from Questions and Answers -
104.  In the Tablet to Aba Badi', this holy verse hath
  been revealed:  "Verily, We have enjoined on every
  son to serve his father."  Such is the decree which
  We have set forth in the Book.


Regarding service to others, we have these statements -
 Praise be to God! the mediaeval ages of darkness have passed
away and this century of radiance has dawned,--this century
wherein the reality of things is becoming evident,--wherein
science is penetrating the mysteries of the universe,
the oneness of the world of humanity is being established
and service to mankind is the paramount motive of all existence.
(Abdu'l-Baha, BWF 279)

In the Baha'i Cause arts, sciences and all crafts are (counted as) worship.
The man who makes a piece of notepaper to the best of his ability,
conscientiously, concentrating all his forces on perfecting it, is giving
praise to God. Briefly, all effort and exertion put forth by man from the
fullness of his  heart is worship, if it is prompted by the highest motives
and the will to do service to humanity. This is worship: to serve mankind
and to minister to the needs of the people. Service is prayer.
(Abdu'l-Baha, PT 164-5)

For service in love for mankind is unity with God.  He who serves has already
entered the Kingdom and is seated at the right hand of his Lord.
(Abdu'l-Baha, PUP 186)

In my opinion, an essential aspect of personal spiritual development for a
Baha'i must include exemplifying the Scriptures thru' service to mankind.

Don C



He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not.



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Re: posting question about Recognition Manifestation

2004-11-21 Thread Sandra Chamberlain
Dear Fariborz,
Personally, I cannot recall a phrase which implies "...after 
the Recognition one should serve those that believe..."  The 
closest would be directives to the Institutions to "serve the 
servants".  Otherwise, those references to "serve" that I've 
located seem to address the willingness to serve humanity (if 
you will) and exemplify the Teachings by our deeds.  Service 
in isolation would not achieve the aim of sharing the 
Revelation of Baha'u'llah by word or deed, as appealing as 
that might be!

lovingly,  Sandra
A few more quotes:
A DESCRIPTION OF THE KITAB-I-AQDAS BY SHOGHI EFFENDI
TAKEN FROM GOD PASSES BY, HIS HISTORY OF THE FIRST BAHÁ'Í 
CENTURY

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 11)

. Bahá'u'lláh exhorts His followers to consort, with amity and 
concord and without

discrimination, with the adherents of all religions; warns 
them to guard against fanaticism, sedition, pride, dispute and 
contention; inculcates upon them immaculate cleanliness,

strict truthfulness, spotless chastity, trustworthiness, 
hospitality, fidelity, courtesy, forbearance, justice and 
fairness; counsels them to be "even as the fingers of one hand 
and the limbs of one body"; calls upon them to arise and serve 
His Cause; and assures them of His undoubted aid.


(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 14)

We cherish the hope that one of the kings of the earth will, 
for the sake of God, arise for the triumph of this wronged, 
this oppressed people. Such a king will be eternally extolled 
and glorified. God hath prescribed unto this people the duty 
of aiding whosoever will aid them, of serving his best 
interests, and of demonstrating to him their abiding loyalty. 
They who follow Me must strive, under all circumstances, to 
promote the welfare of whosoever will arise for the triumph of 
My Cause, and must at all times prove their devotion and 
fidelity unto him. Happy is the man that hearkeneth and 
observeth My counsel. Woe unto him that faileth to fulfil My 
wish.


(Baha'u'llah, The Proclamation of Baha'u'llah, p. 13-15)

The fourth Glad-Tidings

Should any of the kings -- may God aid them -- arise to 
protect and help this oppressed people, all must vie with one 
another in loving and in serving him. This matter is incumbent 
upon everyone. Well is it with them that act accordingly.


(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 22)

O peoples of the world! Forsake all evil, hold fast that which 
is good. Strive to be shining examples unto all mankind, and 
true reminders of the virtues of God amidst men. He that 
riseth to serve My Cause should manifest My wisdom, and bend 
every effort to banish ignorance from the earth. Be united in 
counsel, be one in thought. Let each morn be better than its 
eve and each morrow richer than its yesterday. Man's merit 
lieth in service and virtue and not in the pageantry of wealth 
and riches. Take heed that your words be purged from idle 
fancies and worldly desires and your deeds be cleansed from 
craftiness and suspicion. Dissipate not the wealth of your 
precious lives in the pursuit of evil and corrupt affection, 
nor let your endeavours be spent in promoting your personal 
interest. Be generous in your days of plenty, and be patient 
in the hour of loss. Adversity is followed by success and 
rejoicings follow woe. Guard against idleness and sloth, and 
cling unto that which profiteth mankind, whether young or old, 
whether high or low. Beware lest ye sow tares of dissension 
among men or plant thorns of doubt in pure and radiant hearts.


(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 138)

Arise thou to serve the Cause of thy Lord; then give the 
people the joyful tidings concerning this resplendent Light 
whose revelation hath been announced by God through His 
Prophets and Messengers. Admonish everyone moreover to observe 
prudence as ordained by Him, and in the Name of God advise 
them, saying: It behoveth every one in this Day of God to 
dedicate himself to the teaching of the Cause with utmost 
prudence and steadfastness. Should he discover a pure soil, 
let him sow the seed of the Word of God, otherwise it would be 
preferable to observe silence.


(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 242) 

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Re: posting question about Recognition Manifestation

2004-11-21 Thread Smaneck



In a message dated 11/21/2004 2:26:37 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

Is there a line somewhere in Aqdas or elsewhere that says after the Recognition one should serve those that believe?
Not to my knowledge. Obedience to the Laws comes after recognition, not obedience to others. 
 
warmest, Susan 
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Re: posting question about Recognition Manifestation

2004-11-21 Thread Evolvinghuman



Is there a line somewhere in Aqdas or elsewhere that says after the 
Recognition one should serve those that believe?
 
Fariborz
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RE: posting question about Recognition Manifestation

2004-11-21 Thread Sandra Chamberlain
IN THE NAME OF HIM WHO IS THE SUPREME RULER OVER ALL THAT HATH 
BEEN AND ALL THAT IS TO BE

The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is the 
recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of His Revelation and 
the Fountain of His laws, Who representeth the Godhead in both 
the Kingdom of His Cause and the world of creation. Whoso 
achieveth this duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is 
deprived thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of
every righteous deed. It behoveth every one who reacheth this 
most sublime station, this summit of transcendent glory, to 
observe every ordinance of Him Who is the Desire of the world. 
These twin duties are inseparable. Neither is acceptable 
without the other.  Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is 
the Source of Divine inspiration.

They whom God hath endued with insight will readily recognize 
that the precepts laid down by God constitute the highest 
means for the maintenance of order in the world and the 
security of its peoples. He that turneth away from them is 
accounted among the abject and foolish. We, verily, have 
commanded you to refuse the dictates of your evil passions and 
corrupt desires, and not to transgress the bounds which the 
Pen of the Most High hath fixed, for these are the breath of 
life unto all created things. The seas of Divine wisdom and 
Divine utterance have risen under the breath of the breeze of 
the All-Merciful. Hasten to drink your fill, O men of 
understanding! They that have violated the Covenant of God by 
breaking His commandments, and have turned back on their 
heels, these have erred grievously in the sight of God, the 
All-Possessing, the Most High.

O ye peoples of the world! Know assuredly that My commandments 
are the lamps of My loving
providence among My servants, and the keys of My mercy for My 
creatures. Thus hath it been sent down from the heaven of the 
Will of your Lord, the Lord of Revelation. Were any man to 
taste the sweetness of the words which the lips of the 
All-Merciful have willed to utter, he would, though the 
treasures of the earth be in his possession, renounce them one 
and all, that he might vindicate the truth of even one of His 
commandments, shining above the Dayspring of His bountiful 
care and loving-kindness.

Say: From My laws the sweet-smelling savour of My garment can 
be smelled, and by their aid the standards of Victory will be 
planted upon the highest peaks. The Tongue of My power hath, 
from the heaven of My omnipotent glory, addressed to My 
creation these words: "Observe My commandments, for the love 
of My beauty." Happy is the lover that hath inhaled the divine 
fragrance of his Best-Beloved from these words, laden with the 
perfume of a grace which no tongue can describe. By My life! 
He who hath drunk the choice wine of fairness from the hands 
of My bountiful favour will circle around My commandments that 
shine above the Dayspring of My creation.

Think not that We have revealed unto you a mere code of laws. 
Nay, rather, We have unsealed the choice Wine with the fingers 
of might and power. To this beareth witness that which the Pen 
of Revelation hath revealed. Meditate upon this, O men of 
insight!

(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 18-21) 

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