[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pre-judgement (or wishful thinking) was Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Martyn My impression is that in the more usual case, freak historical lutes and theorbos are frequently adopted to accomodate the modern playing context: e.g. using higher pitches than historic for the type of instrument if strung in gut (typically for tuning to an orchestra or to a singer), a shorter instruments than historic (particularly for theorbos), again only possible with synthetic stringing; and in both cases to make life easier for the lutenist (and in the extreme case single strings on a liuto forte). At least Anthony Bailes with this 76cm lute (and gut stringing), can't be accused of having made his playing easier. About the RH position close to the bridge, this (according to the Lute new's report on his talk), is indeed one of the reasons for AB choosing an old lute. Although he is the only one to suggest this, he did say that, in his experience, such lutes had good sustain but were also somewhat veiled in sound which automatically called for a position near the bridge; the popularity of such lutes, he thought, might have contributed to this change to RH position near the bridge. (I quote, here, from memory, as this morning, I can't find my copy of the Lute News in question). However, as I said above, I am neither a lute maker nor a musicologist, although I do feel fairly sure that no one (including AB) would have ordered a 76cm from a lute maker in order to play this music; the string length, I therefore have to conclude, as you do, is not the French Baroque ideal. Although AB is a model for many, I doubt whether his example will be followed; but you have given far more thought to this issue than I have, so I will have to leave you the last word on this historical question, and bow to your judgement. I would nevertheless, just like to add that I so wish it was sufficient to have a suitable lute, good strings, and correct RH position to be able to interpret French Baroque lute music, but as Mathias rightly says, French music is too tricky, although in my case I feel it worth a try. Regards Anthony De : Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk À : Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Cc : baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Envoyé le : Mardi 20 mars 2012 15h06 Objet : Re: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pre-judgement (or wishful thinking) was Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD Dear Anthony, Thank you for this. In essence all I'm suggesting is that we should look at the evidence of what size and sort (eg barring) of instrument was used for a particular repertoire and then see what sounds result, rather than starting from the sort of sound we personally like and then choosing the instrument which makes this sound. Clearly the first has the possibility of getting somewhere near what the original composers might have expected and their audiences heard; but the second merely reflects our own prejudices/pre-delictions/wishful-thinking of the sort of sound we, as individuals, would like to hear. The matter is particularly pointed if the specification of the instrument we come up with for performing a particular repertoire was unknown to players at the time. This doesn't just apply to Anthony Bailes of course but to any player with pretensions to perform works in a manner reasonably close to what the original composer might have expected. Regarding putting 'sustain' as the feature most to be sought in this repertoire is, of course, simply a prejudice (prejudgement) - it might be any feature (eg softness, loudness, ability to articulate, lack of sustain etc). As said, we ought to try and secure an instrument as close as possible to what the actual historic evidence indicates and base our experiments on this. I also suggest, if we wish to be rigorous about this search, we should eschew other anachronistic techniques - such as plucking away from the bridge and up to the rose which has at least as big an influence on the tone produced as almost any other factor. Your links (email 16 March) to pictures comparing Mouton and a modern 11 course player is particular telling: not only in the right hand position and its plucking posture but also how the instrument is held - low down cradled in the lap, not high up resting on the right thigh as Mouton (and other contemporary depictions). Finally, I'm all for experiment if it is presented as such: it's when this might be seem to be an accurate reflection of what the Old Ones actually did that I worry. regards Martyn --- On Tue, 20/3/12, Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pre-judgement (or wishful thinking) was Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 20 March, 2012, 12:52 Dear Martyn I must appologize for not having seen your message; I actually
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pre-judgement (or wishful thinking) was Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD
Dear Anthony, Thank you for this. In essence all I'm suggesting is that we should look at the evidence of what size and sort (eg barring) of instrument was used for a particular repertoire and then see what sounds result, rather than starting from the sort of sound we personally like and then choosing the instrument which makes this sound. Clearly the first has the possibility of getting somewhere near what the original composers might have expected and their audiences heard; but the second merely reflects our own prejudices/pre-delictions/wishful-thinking of the sort of sound we, as individuals, would like to hear. The matter is particularly pointed if the specification of the instrument we come up with for performing a particular repertoire was unknown to players at the time. This doesn't just apply to Anthony Bailes of course but to any player with pretensions to perform works in a manner reasonably close to what the original composer might have expected. Regarding putting 'sustain' as the feature most to be sought in this repertoire is, of course, simply a prejudice (prejudgement) - it might be any feature (eg softness, loudness, ability to articulate, lack of sustain etc). As said, we ought to try and secure an instrument as close as possible to what the actual historic evidence indicates and base our experiments on this. I also suggest, if we wish to be rigorous about this search, we should eschew other anachronistic techniques - such as plucking away from the bridge and up to the rose which has at least as big an influence on the tone produced as almost any other factor. Your links (email 16 March) to pictures comparing Mouton and a modern 11 course player is particular telling: not only in the right hand position and its plucking posture but also how the instrument is held - low down cradled in the lap, not high up resting on the right thigh as Mouton (and other contemporary depictions). Finally, I'm all for experiment if it is presented as such: it's when this might be seem to be an accurate reflection of what the Old Ones actually did that I worry. regards Martyn --- On Tue, 20/3/12, Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Anthony Hind agno3ph...@yahoo.com Subject: [BAROQUE-LUTE] Re: Pre-judgement (or wishful thinking) was Re: Ne Anthony Bailes CD To: Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu baroque-lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Tuesday, 20 March, 2012, 12:52 Dear Martyn I must appologize for not having seen your message; I actually wrote a subpart to my mail to Ed (on sustain, clarity and with modern hard thin tables) which was a note to you, and saying something not completely unlike what you say here; but then I removed it, as it was very tentative, a little confused, and not really addressed to Ed (although the subject still relates to sustain in French baroque lute music). I then had to respond to another mail, and I forgot to make the note to you. I will just add it here, almost as I initially wrote it: I should perhaps add (in Ed's message) a few words as second thoughts, here , more as questions to Martyn, relating to Anthony Baile's experimenting with sustain for French Baroque lute music. I don't think it has always been considered that the French lutenists research for old Bologna lutes was necessarilly a search for lutes having BOTH sustain and clarity; I remember several lute makers advising me that the best quality for a French lute would be speed and clarity (I believe they were simply considering sound differences between rounder multi-ribbed Paduan shape and the Bologna almond shape on modern lutes, rather than the age question). The idea possibly being that the speed and clarity of the shallower Bologna shape might help counteract the increased sympathetic resonances due to the new tunings (thus perhaps reducing overhang, a bad form of sustain). However, an alternative and opposing hypothesis (possibly adopted by AB) might be that the greater age of the Bologna lutes, as well as the reduction in the ammount of paper and glue (Burwell) giving less impedance, would all combine to better allow the French musicians to profit from the sympathetic resonances due to their tunings increasing sustain. (I am not forgetting that a number of French lutenists (Pinel?) may have actually preferred the rounder sound of Paduan lutes) % Better sustain with clarity, I believe would also have been achieved if they were using low impedance high tension stringing, which theoreticians of this school also suppose French musicians had done (supposition disputed by tenants of the low tension theory). Further more, Jacob Heringman told me that, in his opinion, long string lengths also permit
