[Newbies] How to remove the need of the Squeak.source file
For distribution purpose to end user, I don't want to ship the Squeak.source file. How can we remove the check of the sourcefile at image start up ? Hilaire ___ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
RE: [Newbies] Where do I put it?
Hi Blake, I agree that you questions have general value and I'm happy to help publicly. I only offered to help you offline because it is clear that you are getting something from our conversation so I wanted to remove the distractions of the public list if it was causing any difficulty. It does seem that there are games where the deck arrangement is so different that it needs its own coding. The benefit of the factory implementation that I showed you is that you now have a deckFactory superclass to write code that is common among all decks (like shuffle). Ultimately the greatest benefit of shared code comes from having more then one game that can use the same deck. In that case all you have to do is implement the deckType on your game and you are good to go. You are asking very good questions, please keep them coming! Ron -Original Message- From: Blake On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 08:20:39 -0800, Ron Teitelbaum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just wrote all this off the top of my head and didn't test any of it, and I didn't include all the code you need. I guess I'm just giving you a pattern that will work, but that leaves you plenty to learn on your own. I tried to make it simple, but I've been told that I don't do that very well. So if you need a more detailed explanation I can go over each step in my thinking, please don't be afraid to ask. If you like we can continue this conversation offline, either way works for me. Well, I hope the questions I post have some general educational value. I'm building mini-Smalltalk lessons and decided to do a series on card games because when =I= was learning, each game defined its own deck of cards with its own set of code. (If suit wasn't important to a game, for example, the program simply wouldn't specify it.) Lotta duplicated read-only code. A deck of cards seemed like a good, beginning design question, but I began to think (overthink?) the relationships of physical cards, decks, the symbols used, etc. I hadn't thought of using a factory; I'll brood on that one. Thanks. ===Blake=== ___ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
RE: [Newbies] Squeak in commercial projects
Hi JP, This is not an easy question. There are a number of things that you need to consider. First you need to decide how secure the update needs to be. If you are not worried about security then you have a much easier job and many more options. In general Squeak is not secure, but it is also not less secure then many other tools that are sent to end users. So first answer some questions. Is your system likely to be used by people that are interested in cracking the system? Does your system have access to network facilities that attach to other installations of your system? Are you concerned that someone might try to build a patch and upload that code to your system installations? (i.e. spyware, worms, viruses) Are you trying to prevent users from using features of your system without authorization? (i.e. Try before you buy?) There are no easy answers but I do believe it is a very interesting discussion. Ron Teitelbaum President / Principal Software Engineer US Medical Record Specialists www.usmedrec.com Squeak Cryptography Team Leader -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:beginners- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jens Pall Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 2:09 AM To: Squeak Beginners Subject: [Newbies] Squeak in commercial projects Hi How can I use Squeak in a commercial closed source project (whole image)? How about upgrades? I want to be able to send an upgrade to the customer which only contains the changed code. Thanks, JP ___ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners ___ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
[Newbies] Squeak slows to start up in Windows
I am pretty sure I read it somewhere in the Squeak mailing list why Squeak can be slow to start in Windows... but I cannot find the information. I have just rename the image and executable with the same name, located in the same directory, but it start a bit slowly, about 20s. What is the trick? Hilaire ___ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
RE: [Newbies] Squeak slows to start up in Windows
Hilaire I think the reason is something like that Squeaks queries Windows to now if an image is available in its directory, if there are more than one it opens a file chooser. If you create a shortcut and within you state the appropriate image as a parameter the time to start-up is greatly reduced. Emilio -Mensaje original- De: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] nombre de Hilaire Fernandes Enviado el: Martes, 06 de Marzo de 2007 12:39 Para: beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org Asunto: [Newbies] Squeak slows to start up in Windows I am pretty sure I read it somewhere in the Squeak mailing list why Squeak can be slow to start in Windows... but I cannot find the information. I have just rename the image and executable with the same name, located in the same directory, but it start a bit slowly, about 20s. What is the trick? Hilaire ___ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners ___ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Re: [Newbies] Squeak slows to start up in Windows
Hilaire Fernandes wrote: I am pretty sure I read it somewhere in the Squeak mailing list why Squeak can be slow to start in Windows... but I cannot find the information. I have just rename the image and executable with the same name, located in the same directory, but it start a bit slowly, about 20s. What is the trick? It's much faster if you drop the image file on a shortcut of the VM (.exe). You can have the shortcut on your desktop and then drag whatever image you'd like to start. It starts up pretty fast this way. -- brad fuller www.bradfuller.com +1 (408) 799-6124 ___ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Re: [Newbies] Squeak in commercial projects
Ron Teitelbaum wrote: Hi JP, This is not an easy question. There are a number of things that you need to consider. First you need to decide how secure the update needs to be. If you are not worried about security then you have a much easier job and many more options. In general Squeak is not secure, but it is also not less secure then many other tools that are sent to end users. So first answer some questions. Is your system likely to be used by people that are interested in cracking the system? Some of the end-users might try this but most of them will not. They just want a system that works and does its job. We are working with partners who are distributing our software and I know that some of them will try to open up the software, modify it and, in some cases, try to sell it as their own if it is easy to get at the source. If the source is not available and it is a bit hard to get access to the developing interface then I believe this risk is greatly reduced. Does your system have access to network facilities that attach to other installations of your system? Yes. This is a distributed networked application. It lives and breathes on the network. Are you concerned that someone might try to build a patch and upload that code to your system installations? (i.e. spyware, worms, viruses) Well, not really. Our installations mainly run on private WAN networks owned by the customer but you never know what malicious internal users might do. We plan on being able to run this over the Internet where this is a major concern but will try to limit it by using secure network connections. Are you trying to prevent users from using features of your system without authorization? (i.e. Try before you buy?) Yes. We must be able to issue licenses for using features of the system. There are no easy answers but I do believe it is a very interesting discussion. It indeed is and one that needs to be addressed if Squeak is to be seriously considered as a commercial vehicle. It has huge potential in that area if the proper hooks are in place. As a side note I might mention that our current system is implemented in C++ and, if it turns out to be possible with respect to the topic of this thread, we are seriously considering porting it to Squeak. Croquet will also play a major role as the monitoring / management tool. Ron Teitelbaum President / Principal Software Engineer US Medical Record Specialists www.usmedrec.com Squeak Cryptography Team Leader -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:beginners- [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jens Pall Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 2:09 AM To: Squeak Beginners Subject: [Newbies] Squeak in commercial projects Hi How can I use Squeak in a commercial closed source project (whole image)? How about upgrades? I want to be able to send an upgrade to the customer which only contains the changed code. Thanks, JP ___ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
[Newbies] Uploading Patches and Enabling Features in Commercial Systems
Hi JP, OK before answering let me say that these are only suggestions and you are responsible for taking suggestions as suggestions. In other words I can not be responsible for anything that goes wrong on your system, use my suggestions at your own risk. THE OPINION IS PROVIDED AS IS, WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AUTHORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY CLAIM, DAMAGES OR OTHER LIABILITY, WHETHER IN AN ACTION OF CONTRACT, TORT OR OTHERWISE, ARISING FROM, OUT OF OR IN CONNECTION WITH THE OPINION OR THE USE OR OTHER DEALINGS IN SOFTWARE. I'm sure all that goes without saying but now it is said. The first question you asked was: how does a system update itself? Here are the issues as I see them. 1) A system must be able to ensure that it is updating itself from a trusted location. 2) A system must be able to ensure that only the trusted system can ask it to update itself. 3) A system must be able to ensure that it can securely store an update location. 4) A system must be able to securely change the update location. 5) All communications must be encrypted. 6) A System must be able to verify patches before applying them. 7) A System must be able to automatically load the patch. 8) A System should be able to update without restarting the application. 9) A System must be able to report back success or failure of patch installation. 10) A System must be able to recover from a failed patch. Ok so basic caveat, I just made these up and I'm sure I left something out. The second question is how you can limit functionally in your system unless and until payment is received. 1) A system must be able to enable features for a single instance and prevent those features from being shared to other systems. 2) A system could be able to detect features being used inappropriately 3) A system could be able to periodically check for permission (trial software) Ok so since I ran out of time I'll try to take each point one at a time starting tomorrow. Does this list help the conversation? Can you add to the list things that you think the system needs to do? Ron Teitelbaum President / Principal Software Engineer US Medical Record Specialists Squeak Cryptography Team Leader From: Jens Pall Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 3:10 PM Ron Teitelbaum wrote: Hi JP, This is not an easy question. There are a number of things that you need to consider. First you need to decide how secure the update needs to be. If you are not worried about security then you have a much easier job and many more options. In general Squeak is not secure, but it is also not less secure then many other tools that are sent to end users. So first answer some questions. Is your system likely to be used by people that are interested in cracking the system? Some of the end-users might try this but most of them will not. They just want a system that works and does its job. We are working with partners who are distributing our software and I know that some of them will try to open up the software, modify it and, in some cases, try to sell it as their own if it is easy to get at the source. If the source is not available and it is a bit hard to get access to the developing interface then I believe this risk is greatly reduced. Does your system have access to network facilities that attach to other installations of your system? Yes. This is a distributed networked application. It lives and breathes on the network. Are you concerned that someone might try to build a patch and upload that code to your system installations? (i.e. spyware, worms, viruses) Well, not really. Our installations mainly run on private WAN networks owned by the customer but you never know what malicious internal users might do. We plan on being able to run this over the Internet where this is a major concern but will try to limit it by using secure network connections. Are you trying to prevent users from using features of your system without authorization? (i.e. Try before you buy?) Yes. We must be able to issue licenses for using features of the system. There are no easy answers but I do believe it is a very interesting discussion. It indeed is and one that needs to be addressed if Squeak is to be seriously considered as a commercial vehicle. It has huge potential in that area if the proper hooks are in place. As a side note I might mention that our current system is implemented in C++ and, if it turns out to be possible with respect to the topic of this thread, we are seriously considering porting it to Squeak. Croquet will also play a major role as the monitoring / management tool. Ron Teitelbaum President / Principal Software Engineer US Medical Record Specialists www.usmedrec.com Squeak Cryptography Team Leader
Re: [Newbies] Squeak in commercial projects
Bert Freudenberg wrote: You could buy impara's Plopp (made in Squeak), and if you find it secure enough, contact them for how they did it: http://store.eSellerate.net/s.aspx?s=STR8699827788 - Bert - Interesting! Thanks for the tip, Bert. JP ___ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Re: [Newbies] Squeak in commercial projects
Jens Pall wrote: Hi How can I use Squeak in a commercial closed source project (whole image)? Have you seen how to lock down? http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/518 ___ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Re: [Newbies] Squeak in commercial projects
Brad Fuller wrote: Jens Pall wrote: Hi How can I use Squeak in a commercial closed source project (whole image)? Have you seen how to lock down? http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/518 Yes, I've seen bits and pieces of the lock down procedure but haven't been able to successfully lock an image (haven't tried very hard though). This is a step inn the right direction but I'm a bit concerned about upgrades. How would I ship an upgrade without sending the whole image again? Can I somehow export the new/changed bytecode and import it at the customer's site? JP ___ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Re: [Newbies] Squeak in commercial projects
Jens Pall wrote: Brad Fuller wrote: Jens Pall wrote: Hi How can I use Squeak in a commercial closed source project (whole image)? Have you seen how to lock down? http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/518 Yes, I've seen bits and pieces of the lock down procedure but haven't been able to successfully lock an image (haven't tried very hard though). There were msgs about a month or two back in the squeak-dev ML about the lock down package not working correctly on 3.9. But, I think there were workarounds. Check the archives. This is a step inn the right direction but I'm a bit concerned about upgrades. How would I ship an upgrade without sending the whole image again? Can I somehow export the new/changed bytecode and import it at the customer's site? Can you not employ a similar procedure as squeaksource? Make your own mini SqueakMap that points only to your repo? Or put a friendly frontend to Monticello pointing to your repo only? Maybe you could also send update alerts if the person is online to remind them to update. brad ___ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Re: [Newbies] Squeak slows to start up in Windows
Takes about 3 seconds here, with image in different directory from VM. On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 07:39:08 -0800, Hilaire Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am pretty sure I read it somewhere in the Squeak mailing list why Squeak can be slow to start in Windows... but I cannot find the information. I have just rename the image and executable with the same name, located in the same directory, but it start a bit slowly, about 20s. What is the trick? Hilaire ___ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners ___ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Re: [Newbies] Squeak in commercial projects
On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 12:10:00 -0800, Jens Pall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a side note I might mention that our current system is implemented in C++ and, if it turns out to be possible with respect to the topic of this thread, we are seriously considering porting it to Squeak. Croquet will also play a major role as the monitoring / management tool. You may be able to do a partial port, and by keeping some sections in C++, be able to prevent theft. ___ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Re: [Newbies] Squeak slows to start up in Windows
Takes about 3 seconds here, with image in different directory from VM. On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 07:39:08 -0800, Hilaire Fernandes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am pretty sure I read it somewhere in the Squeak mailing list why Squeak can be slow to start in Windows... but I cannot find the information. Bonjour Hilaire, si je me souviens bien (IIRC) the problem was that windows look lot of places to find the .image and this is long. If you drop the .image directly ont the squeak.exec you’ll have a fast start, I think. Salut ___ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Re: [Newbies] Squeak in commercial projects
Brad Fuller wrote: Jens Pall wrote: This is a step inn the right direction but I'm a bit concerned about upgrades. How would I ship an upgrade without sending the whole image again? Can I somehow export the new/changed bytecode and import it at the customer's site? Can you not employ a similar procedure as squeaksource? Make your own mini SqueakMap that points only to your repo? Or put a friendly frontend to Monticello pointing to your repo only? Maybe you could also send update alerts if the person is online to remind them to update. But doesn't this imply that the source is downloaded, making it easy (easier) to hack the system? I could make the private Monticello connection secure, update the system and then delete the source... just thinking out loud. JP ___ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
Re: [Newbies] Squeak in commercial projects
Blake wrote: On Tue, 06 Mar 2007 12:10:00 -0800, Jens Pall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a side note I might mention that our current system is implemented in C++ and, if it turns out to be possible with respect to the topic of this thread, we are seriously considering porting it to Squeak. Croquet will also play a major role as the monitoring / management tool. You may be able to do a partial port, and by keeping some sections in C++, be able to prevent theft. Can you elaborate a bit on this point? How would this prevent access to the Smalltalk code in the image? JP ___ Beginners mailing list Beginners@lists.squeakfoundation.org http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
