breeding
In the late 70's a lady, who had a vision for improving the orthopedics of our breed, was promoting the idea of evaluating the progeny at age 2 yr. before considering breeding either the sire or dam again. This was in the day of trying to get breeders to xray breeding stock for hip dysplasia. Hip evaluations eventually became an accepted practice and opened the door to elbows, eyes, thyroid, Vwb, heart B-G and Ron's database have been instrumental in sharing information on relatives, meaning sibs, half sibs, aunts, uncles in addition to parents, grandparents to help breeders with breeding decisions. With the population of Berners on a high in the year 2003, maybe breeders might consider waiting for 2 years before breeding either the dam or sire again.. maybe that might lead to increased longevity as 2 years is a long time to wait with a breed whose life expectancy is 7.. There are some repro vets who claim that a bitch can and should be bred every heat cycle. In the wild nature probably would have handled an over abundance of offspring, but in today's society we really don't need that many puppies.of any breed. April Rifenburg
Histio chemo success
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Berner Pup in Movie
Hello to Everyone, I just watched a movie last night called Equilibrium, and to my surprise there is a cute Berner puppy in the movie. It pops in around the middle of the movie and pops on and off screen from that point on. I liked the movie however, it's not for the faint of heart, rated "R" for violence alone. Definitely a non-traditionally themed action-packed movie. Does anyone know anything about this puppy? Wishing everyone a wonderful day, Audrey Seiler P.S.~ Big thanks to everyone who gave me their thoughts about a month ago!! :)
Dog travel ideas
Hi all, Chris and I are trying to make plans for summer vacation. Currently we are looking at being gone for the last 10 days or so before Labor Day (Sept 1 I think). Current plan is to be in Middleburg, PA for the Mid Susquehanna Valley KC dog show on Aug 23 & 24. We'll stay in the general area for a few days. We have to be in Syracuse area Labor Day weekend for Chris' family reunion. Anyone have some ideas on great sightseeing or naturally beautiful areas to go visit either in PA or NY state? We will have 2 dogs with us, so have to keep that in mind for hotels, etc. My mother suggested Niagra Falls area (hubby's never been there) or the Thousand Islands area (neither of us have been there). Thanks so much, Andrea Stefanac & Chance CD NDD CGC TT & Barkley Richmond, VA __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
RE: more on bitches
Reposted in plain text: On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 19:11:54 -0500 "Burlile\\MemoriesBMDs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Is this question asking about all puppies that the bitch whelps or, more defined, puppies the bitch whelps that later produce puppies themselves? Do puppies that never produce add to the gene pool? I can think of a specific bitch who has been bred multiple times and has several of her offspring being bred. Not sure what the benefit of this is especially in light of some of the health issues in these lines. >At what point does the repeated breedings just become about >money? And is that bad? Repeated breedings in using the same sire/dam or in breeding the bitch repeatedly? I would say mostly repeated breedings. I do understand the value of repeating a breeding but we are seeing some repeats 4 or more times. These were to fulfill a demand for that specific breeding. It is rare that I see the same quality of dog from repeats as the original breeding produced. >And another excellent point -- wouldn't it make sense to assess >what a bitchis producing before breeding again? *** How do you assess this with one litter? Most hip and elbow problems which are severe will show up within the first year. Typically, 5mos - 9mos. Cardiac affected pups will also show up in the first year many times although low graded issues may not appear until later. Metabolic problems, autoimmune issues, and structural issues such as bites may also be seen in the first year. While it can not be determined that the problem is from the dam alone by waiting a year after the pups are born at least issues raised may be addressed for a second litter. Susan
Re: more on bitches
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Re: more on bitches
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Housetraining ideas, breeding discussion
Regarding the pup who barks in his crate in the early morning: I would like to suggest that you remove the pup from the crate, and take him out quickly for a no-nonsense kind of potty trip. Then, put him in bed with you and cuddle him until he is sleepy again, or pull some bedding on the floor and lay down next to pup, perhaps offering him a toy first, in order for him to expend some energy in play. Of course, some of us are just early risers; I am generally awake at around 5AM or so and my dogs like to sleep until about 7AM! Of course, I housetrain my pups and always have, in a matter more similar, I believe, to many of the Europeans. I hope that more folks will consider trying this; there is nothing quite like soft warm puppy breath on your face and hearing pup's contented sighs as he curls up next to you to fall asleep. Mine are never crated during this process but, rather, I sleep next to pup on the floor or wherever and when pup stirs, I am there to comfort pup and escort pup into the yard for pup to relieve himself. My dogs are allowed to sleep on the bed or couch, wherever they want once they are large enough. My sleeping nearly half century old body is always "planted" in the same general area. My dogs are crated in my vehicle, for our rides, etc. so they are not unused to being crated such as at a veterinary clinic, where this would be necessary. Regarding breeding bitches, I think that one would want to evaluate each litter before a new one is bred. For example, most of Yoda's litter eventually succumbed to cancer and one to meningitis. Yoda's litter was VERY conscientiously planned and contained lovely representatives of the breed and Yoda was the love of my life, so to speak, my soulmate. His mother, to the best of my knowledge, died of cancer? and his father, to the best of my knowledge, at a young age to a kidney related problem?? For me, this would send up red flags (not saying absolutely do not do it) here and there and everywhere about repeating such a breeding (it was not repeated) or breeding any relatives. Given the breed's medical challenges, would this not be enough, by itself, to justify waiting until a litter has reached at least an age where OFA is do-able, to repeat a breeding, breed close relatives, that sort of thing? Since most Bernese, given their fragility, health-wise, would not last all that long "in the wilderness," should we not attach more human-type considerations to the breed's situation, which is, after all, created by man, as is the breed. I too read that constant breeding of a bitch actually might suit her better BUT we are not takling about wolves here but, rather, a breed whose problems might become catastrophic. Should not the bigger picture be taken into consideration? After all, "we" are doing what Nature would NEVER NEVER do; creating beings with fragilities that would never permit its long term survival in a natural environment and not just a few, but thousands upon thousands of such. Regarding ANY of our many and respected better breeders breeding to merely supply the pet market with better dogs, I do see the logic but I can not support such an idea as it shows no respect, in my mind, for the bitch whose life is precious and whose very essence demands more consideration than that of being made to assume producer status. We should make cars to meet consumer demand; this should never apply to creating lives, which have birthrights due more consideration, a certain reverence, actually. Lisa Allen _ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus
Re: more on bitches
- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > So the uterus is not "rested" or "spared" or "saved" by skipping a cycle. > The only difference to the uterus is whether there are puppies in it. If we > look at this from a non-anthopomorphic viewpoint, it is healthier for the bitch, > and healthier for the uterus - if one wishes to have a bitch produce well - > to breed her back to back until you no longer wish to have puppies from her. I > know this sounds like heresy to some folks, and I am *not* advocating turning > every breeding program in to a puppy mill, so let's not carried away here. That's really interesting information! I know a lot more about horse breeding than any other kind. :-) In horses, it is most common to breed a mare on either her foal heat (7-10 days after foaling) or the one following, which is about one month post foaling. The gestation is 11 months, so you have one a year. I know most professional broodmares are basically bred each year--some carry on with being a broodmare well into their 20s. They do not have a shorter average lifespan than working horses and pasture potatoes. Eileen Morgan The Mare's Nest http://www.enter.net/~edlehman --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.488 / Virus Database: 287 - Release Date: 6/5/2003
Longlease OK!
Hi Willem, Dingo and Berner-listers! Biggest thanks you all who mailed me to let me know Longlease Site was OK >From Willem. > I have don what you told by favorieten and the porno is gone i do not know how its came there but i am happy that the troubel is over now. Phew!!! Willem now OK again! And once again belated 2nd Happy Birthday to Dingo! Love Us All Jean, Sunny, Sim , Barney and the Longlease Gang http://bernese.biz
Agility weekend
Hi All! Just had to pass on that Barney (Aussie) finished his Excellent Jumpers title on Friday after having spent more than a year in open jumpers. Also Boomer (Berner) picked up two legs towards his Open Standard Preferred title with clean runs and first place both times. His Open JWW runs were good, only knocking two bars on Saturday and one today. Mo didn't come home with any legs but her attention was quite good and I was pleased with her attempts. We came very close to Open JWW legs for her both days. She had a bit of a problem with taking the tunnel trap instead of the dog walk today. Not a bad performance for a green Gordon Setter. Claudia Brydon in NW PA Barney OA AXJ AD (Aussie) Boomer NAP NJP (Bernese Mountain Dog) Mo NA NAJ (Gordon Setter Granddog)
Re: more on bitches
On Sun, 27 Jul 2003 17:53:19 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Repeated breedings > from respected, knowledgable breeders is, in my mind, preferable for > filling this demand than the alternative(given, of course, ongoing > attention to the health of the breeding bitch). But by doing back to back breedings when puppies are only 6mos old - how does this offer you the information you need to know you are producing healthy puppies? I would also not feel as concerned about this if those doing this type of breeding were indeed knowledgeable however, with the encouragement of reproductive experts to frequently breed a bitch and high demand many novice breeders have taken this course of action. How do can you determine the health of the dogs you are producing when you can have 3 litters on the ground before the first is even 2yrs old? What will this tell you about long term health? While I don't consider myself a novice I am hesitant to jump into overbreeding a bitch or dog due to the potential problems that may come up down the road. Breeding litters is more than just numbers when it comes to guaranteeing health. There are no shortcuts or rushing mother nature. Producing for the sake of producing numbers is exploitation. I'm not sure how else to describe it. The bitch may be kept in a house and on the bed but bred for the monetary gain of the owner. As long this is the primary reason for breeding it is very close to the reason that commercial breeders breed. Differences have primarily to do with contracts, responsibility of the dog long term and health screening, or am I missing something Susan Ablon Gweebarra BMD Balch Springs, Tx http://www.pageweb.com/gwebara
Re: Lovely barkers, hello!
Thanks Margareta, This has made me smile so much! > All dogs do not bark so lovely, maybe we could help them with a tape to > listen to? Barney, my Rescue BMD did not bark at all when he first came to live here! Was very quiet! One year later, is the deepest Growl! He spent a few months listening to Sunny's "Yip" and Simbo's "Woof, Woof!" Finally came up with his own Bass Bark! My three down at the gate now sort of harmonize! Such fun! Love Us All, Jean, Sunny, Sim and the Longlease Gang XXX http://bernese.biz
Re: more on bitches
In a message dated 7/27/2003 4:25:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > At what point does the repeated breedings just become about > money? And is that bad? Given the ongoing information we get on this list and elsewhere about the puppies that are finding homes by being sold through pet stores or directly from puppy mills, it seems evident that there is a much larger demand than there is a supply. Repeated breedings from respected, knowledgable breeders is, in my mind, preferable for filling this demand than the alternative(given, of course, ongoing attention to the health of the breeding bitch). Breeders often indicate that breedings should only be done to further the breeding program, working to improve one's lines, but speaking strictly as a pet owner, there are a whole bunch of us out here who are looking for lovable, healthy pets. We would not be obtaining these dogs for use as matadors, or whatever the female equivalent is, but rather, would be thrilled to obtain what will become a spayed/neutered, loved companion. Ann Skinner and the beloved Tatters, Kerzon and Carlos the clown
Re: BERNER-L digest 4514
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Re: Bernese or Burmese
Hi Nell and All, >Now our church is sponsoring a family of refugees from Burma. > We welcomed a healthy offspring this week. It was a Bermese baby, not a Bernese puppy. Oh, No! Shouldn't this be Burmese baby!! LOL!! Bernese, Burmese! What's in a name? Biggest Berner Hugs to the new Burmer Baby! Love us all, Jean, Sunny, Sim, Barney and the Longlease Gang http://bernese.biz
Gallery - some great ones
http://www.berner.org/gal_7_27/BrianzzMurph5.htm
Re: more on bitches
Great questions, Susan. What is the purpose of breeding? And what is the purpose of breeding the same bitch 7-8 times?? How many of her puppies does one need to add to the gene pool? At what point does the repeated breedings just become about money? And is that bad? And another excellent point -- wouldn't it make sense to assess what a bitch is producing before breeding again? Mary-Ann Bowman
forward about the question
Vilma has this to say in response to my question... Vilma -- anything to say about multiple close pregnancies in women?? There is a slightly higher risk of complications w/ closely spaced pregnancies, but actually not dramatically higher. Bleeding, anemia, nutrition issues mostly. Risk of poor nutrition to fetus if mom is still breast feeding the last baby. Maternal exhaustion!! :-) But multiple pregnancies in general (independent of timing/spacing) IS actually fairly strongly associated w/ increased risk of uterine atony (poor contraction of the uterine muscle) after delivery resulting in significant post partum hemorrhage immediately after delivery. The problem is it is hard to study this in people carefully. Most of the time there are also coexisting socioeconomic factors or increasing maternal age (both of which will strongly increase risk of complications such as preeclampsia, hemorrhage, hypertension, premature delivery, poor intrauterine growth) that come in to play more than the timing of the pregnancies alone in humans. In humans, the risks increase most dramatically w/ 5 or more deliveries and "reproductive age" is considered 15-45 yrs old, with the highest risks in patients 15 or younger and 35 or older. Vilma Briggs, MD (OB/GYN) Ohio
Re: breeding cycles
Surprising as it may be, some people actually consider me an expert in my area of specialty :) Because of this and because of all the "experts" I have known and know, this title doesn't mean all that much to me and I no longer think whatever comes out of the mouth of "experts" is the gospel truth. Instead, I like data. The value of an expert is that s/he can usually point to some solid research to back up his/her positions. Therefore, I would really love to see the data that supports a position that healthier, "better" pups result from back to back breedings. I think this is a great discussion and appreciate all the input. Mary-Ann Bowman Utah
Longlease Under attack?
Hi All, I just had a very worrying mail in from Willem >I think you site is infected with porno,when i open your site the last 8 day,s direct came an porno program can you look if you can get it of. Very strange! Works fine when I log on there, my this week's updates went up with no problems and lots of page views when I check the stats with no-one else reporting this happening! And have had quite a few mails in about the updates. Hmmm??? Just phoned a few friends to check it out and they say they are getting my Site just fine Well, I guess quite a few of you viewed my updates, anyone else get this? Pretty sure you didn't 'cause I'm sure you would have let me know. But if anyone has had problems accessing my site, please let me know, and if you feel like checking, some great new pics up there!! I am mystified! But hoping we can sort this for Willem. I wondered if maybe his Favourites menu has been corrupted, just mailed him to click on clean link! Any ideas from you IT specialists ouit there very welcome! All Love, Jean, Sunny, Sim, Barney and the Longlease Gang http://bernese.biz
re.breeding bitches
I think many countries has the breedingrule bitches would be 2 years old before any breeding. And after the first litter you must wait until 12 months to let the whole litter be x-rayed and look at the results. It can be some hidden reason why a bith would not be having another litter...and of course the most of us have our dogs because they are good companions and pets in our family. An old rules human doctors said many years ago for humans was a woman should have 2 sunny summers between every child. To let the bitch be carrying pups over and over again "sounds" a little like starting a puppy-mill?! Some countries already have too many dogs and pups - so lets be careful with our beautifully and furry friends. Margareta Strand Stockholm
RE: breeding cycles
I think before we justify breeding every cycle based on science, we must remember that our dogs are not in a natural setting. They are our pets first and foremost. In a natural setting, just a few puppies would survive, not all. If they were coming fast some may not even get out of the sac and then some may weaken and die because other pushed them out, the bitch might lay on other, etc. I also don't think some bitches care as well for the babies on a back to back breeding. Further reducing numbers in the wild. While the science tells us one part of the equation, there are other factors to consider when choosing to breed a bitch. It's important to know about both the science and the practical realities. I recently bred a bitch back to back. The first litter was one and the second was eleven. I wouldn't even dream about breeding her on her next heat. Sandie Hawkins Sajan (Berners since 1975)
breeding cycles
I had a rather surprising discussion with a reproduction specialist within the last year - and she said the same thing Libby has said - The LARGE breeding kennel she worked with has found that breeding the dogs on their First cycle and Every cycle thereafter, until they fail to produce, produces the Most Healthy puppies + maintains the bitches in their best health. Yes - Dramatically different from what I've been taught by Every mentor I've had over the past 30 years - but - this is what they are finding today to be the case. And Libby went further than this specialist did in explaining what is going on with the uterus of the bitch(es) ... Not that I'm suggesting we all go out & start breeding our girls every cycle all the time --- I'm not -- Most of us are just not into that - But we do need to keep in mind what current medical SCIENCE is teaching us - Joan Robinson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > When discussing pregnancies, and reproductive cycles, we need to understand that bitches are not humans in their physiology - with all respect to Vilma and her knowledge of human reproduction (hi there!). And bitches are not little cows, either. So much of the knowledge of animal husbandry we know from animals other than bitches, does not apply to bitches! We do know that the health and nutrition of any animal is important in reproduction. And we need to remember that it's the timing of the breeding, genetics, and the *health of the uterus* that determine litter size. > I plead ignorance about human ovulation. But a bitch is the only domestic animal whose ova are ovulated into a progesterone environment, not the estrogen environment of other animals. And a bitch ovulates an immature egg that requires further division before fertilization can occur. A fertilized egg implants in the uterus at Day 17-18. > > Whether or not a bitch is in fact bred and becomes pregnant, or not, when she goes through her cycle, her uterus acts exactly as if it is pregnant. The hormonal levels that change with a cycle change and apply regardless of whether there are puppies. The progesterone levels affecting the uterus each cycle are at the same level, and last as long in the bitch, whether she is bred or not. So the uterus is not "rested" or "spared" or "saved" by skipping a cycle. The only difference to the uterus is whether there are puppies in it. If we look at this from a non-anthopomorphic viewpoint, it is healthier for the bitch, and healthier for the uterus - if one wishes to have a bitch produce well - to breed her back to back until you no longer wish to have puppies from her. I know this sounds like heresy to some folks, and I am *not* advocating turning every breeding program in to a puppy mill, so let's not carried away here. > If you look at the uterus of the bitch 12 weeks after she whelps a litter, it is usually totally healed, and ready to start the process over again. Actually, it usually does start the process all over again. By Day 16-17 of her cycle, if you didn't breed her, the process starts all over again. Bitches never go into menopause. > And when 5 of them all living in the same house come in season in the same week - well, they don't call them bitches for nothing. > > Libby Kesner > and the Berner girls of Maine > Voorheesville NY USA
Re: BERNER-L digest 4512
Pat, Maria and Vilma It depends on which species of birds that your dogs decide to sing with early in the AM. I have found that the house wrens and cardinals are the first out at about the break of daylight. My dogs become restless and want me to get up at 6 AM. The don't sing with the birds but do lay on me in bed until I can't breath anymore. But I do know that Pat gets up at around 4AM, so the songbirds and dogs will not bother her routine! And Maria can bribe you with the best wines around.trust me! Carol Slider in NC Ian and Anna..who are awaiting an invite to visit Auntie Pat! > -- > From: "Pat Long & Paul Dangel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "'Maria Crifasi'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: RE: Pat Long, Puppy Sitter Extraordinaire > Maria? > > I was thinking of teaching Buddy to sing with the birds. > Did you know they start chirping later in the Catoctin Mountains than > they do here in Berwyn? The first chirp here is about 4:20AM, and the > first chirp in Catoctin is about 5:30AM. So if I can teach Buddy to sing > with the birds, you'll be able to sleep much later than we do! > > I just wanted you to know how considerate I am! > > Of course, were you the sort of person to have a clock with different > birds chirping each hour, well, that would be unfortunate! > > > Pat Long (& Luther) > Berwyn PA > > From: "Maria Crifasi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Pat Long" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: "Vilma Kistner Briggs" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > Subject: Berners for Pat > > > Isn't that just so so thoughtful of Pat to try to teach Buddy to howl > whenever he hears a bird sing? You see, I have one of those clocks that > chirp every hour -- except, Pat, at night. These clocks are light > sensitive. > > I'll ask Vilma to train Brew to howl every hour on the hour. Then, when Brew > arrives at your house, you can select what hour you wish to rise from your > bed. > > Vilma dear, do this and I will supply you with good mellow Cabernets at the > next Specialty. Trust me. > > No one is more thoughtful than me. > > blink, blink, > Maria >
Re: BERNER-L digest 4512
> > From: Andie Reid <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: fat berners > > in cutting back, add green beans to the bowl - they love them, fill > them up, add minimal calories, a few vitamins, but most importantly, > make the dog feel full when the actual portion has been decreased. If feeding canned green beans, make sure you rinse all the salt brine off of them before feeding. You can buy unSALTED canned beans but they are more expensive. ( for the added salt??) I switched to a lower calorie, good grade kibble for "Ian". He weighs in at 128# but is not fat. He is just a big-boned berner and I don't want him to add any extra weight at 6 1/2yrs old. Also adding steamed veggies to his diet, such as squashes, has helped fill him up. Carol Slider in NC with Ian and Anna
Re: more on bitches
Mary Ann your question on how many times a bitch is used is an interesting one and some of the answers are also well stated. I suppose my question in regard to all this does no apply to bitches as much as stud dogs however one can consider both questions equally - " how many times should a bitch be bred in order to overall improve or help the genepool? or should a bitch that produces well continue to be bred to supply the demand for puppies?" You can see how this applies to stud dogs also and for those people who repeat breeding after breeding is there a reason other than to fulfill demand? If there was no demand would these repeated breedings even take place? Just a thought as to why we bother to breed. By doing back to back breedings how can you honestly say that the dogs produced are healthy and sound when the repeat breeding is done while the previous litter is just 6mos old? What type of claims can you honestly make regarding the health of puppies of that age? Just tossing out some other thoughts and questions Susan Ablon Gweebarra BMD Balch Springs, Tx http://www.pageweb.com/gwebara
feeding the bitch
What it takes from a bitch to grow her puppies in utero, and to grow them on once they are on the ground, comes in large part from what that bitch has from the start herself. Yes, absolutely, it can be exhausting and draining on the bitch, if she is not in peak condition before breeding, and not fed properly during the time she is nursing. Some bitches give it all to the pups, and lose condition, and don't come back well. These bitches I would no put on my list of "good brood bitches". And I would not breed them back the next cycle if not in condition. Frankly, a bitch who puts herself at risk like this would gets the bells ringing in my head over whether I wanted her in my breeding program or not. And I would certainly revisit my feeding/management program as well. I have a bitch here with four pups. They were four weeks old yesterday. She put on weight while pregnant - I mean fat-on-the-ribs weight. Not to excess, but she is a strong and fit girl, and she just loved the extra stuff towards the end of the pregnancy. The pups are eating nothing but mother's milk at this point. They weigh 8-9 lbs today, and are active and happy. They fill up when nursing, get satisfied and don't cry for extra. They have full bodies, and lovely bone, and are thriving. As is the bitch. She is fed more than adequate nutrition - and I'm not getting into a raw vs. kibble diet thing here :-) I can feel her ribs if I search for them. And she has a waist. She looks lovely and is bright-eyed and happy. Should all continue to go well, I would not hesitate to consider breeding her back on her next cycle. We shall begin food other than bitch milk in another week. There is some fascinating information out there about the changes in the energy content of a bitch's milk over the lactation period, and the amount of food/energy intake a bitch must have to produce adequately for her pups - if anyone is interested :-) The milk intake of a Beagle puppy is about 5.5 ounces per day. With an average size Beagle litter, the bitch needs to produce about one quart of milk per day (Oftedal O. Lactation in the dog: Milk Composition and intake by Puppies. J Nutr 1984: 114:803-312). Just imagine the milk Peals is putting out - she sure ain't no Beagle! I am letting her tell me how much more food she wants - she is currently eating slightly more than 200% of her maintenance diet. I expect it to go up before it goes down. Any other breeders out there care to share? Libby Kesner and the Berner girls of Maine Voorheesville NY USA
Berner Pup in Movie
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Re: Homemade Bug Repellent
Just wanted to warn people who use rose germanium oil that it can cause miscarriage in humans and animals, it can be substituted with palmerosa. Palmerosa can be used mixed with a base oil and droppered onto a collar for fleas and ticks (very few mosquitos in this drought so no idea if it is effective against them. It works for humans too, and between us three there have been only 2 ticks in 6 months despite foot long grass for a few weeks. Emma and Tatty in France --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release Date: 18.04.2003
RE: more on bitches
Libby, Thank you for taking the time to explain the bitch's cycle so well. I started an email and just had to go to other activities (playing with the dogs). You said it all better than I would have. Female dogs are not women in fur and we should be very careful not to put a human face on their reproductive experiences. Sandie Hawkins Sajan (Berners since 1975)
fat berners
Tatty has never been fat, it has been a struggle for a year to get her to eat decent amounts, now she has just started to. She has always had some treats but no table treats! The skinny minx gets runny poo from fat, is always able to walk away from food, and will wait for us to eat before she does even if her food is down and she is hungry! Fit and healthy has always been our goal, large she may never be (at 32kg she is tiny for a berner) but she is fit and healthy. So there are berners out there that are not food bins Emma and Tatty in France --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release Date: 18.04.2003
Update on Eddie and Hannah
First, let me thank everyone for their kind emails. It's wonderful to have an extended family out there to count on when you're going through something that makes you feel like you're in it all by yourself! You're really not! Thank you Eddie and Hannah both underwent surgery on Friday. Here's how things went... First, Eddie... When the vet was in there she found that the tooth root bed on the other side of his face was also affected and starting to abcess, so he ended up getting both big upper molars pulled one on each side. She did a beautiful job stitching the holes on his face back together. She said the holes were right down to bone, so she had to pull muscle and tendons back across. He's got 3 layers of stiches. He's not bothering with the stitches at all, but we're having a very hard time getting him to eat. I've tried soaking his food, canned dog food and everything and he's just not interested in eating. He is also having some problems with his back end and walking, so we got him to the chiropractor on Saturday. He's just all bunched up from the surgery and being turned over and over to be worked on. A few more adjustments and he should be fine. Of course, all day yesterday, I was wondering if we did the right thing by putting him through this as he does not seem to be bouncing back and is really depressed. It also doesn't help to know that 2 years ago our previous vet put Eddie under to remove THAT tooth, but decided not too because they could not find any indication that there was a problem, so we wasted a lot of money at that time for nothing. They did not even do x-rays! Had THAT tooth been pulled 2 years ago like they were supposed to we're sure his face would have healed up on it's own long ago. However, Rob reminded me that it's been 2 years this way (and trying to get vets to do SOMETHING) so he may take a bit more time to bounce back. Let's hope so. On Thursday night at 11:20 p.m. we got a call from our new wonderful vet.. she had just gotten the results from the radiologist. He feels that it is a swollen lymph gland and that we should definitely pursue surgery. She wanted to make sure we knew right away as she is fully aware of the MH in this line and wanted to set our minds at rest as quickly as possible. Now that's a dedicated vet and one that I want on our side. We had been looking for a new vet for the last 2 years after ours retired. I'm glad we found her! So Hannah did undergo surgery to have the growth removed from between her toes. It has been sent off for biopsy but we won't know until about Wednesday what we're looking at. The vet did laser surgery and she said everything went very well. Hannah has to keep a bandage on her foot (looks like a golf club!) for one week so the pressure from standing on her foot does not pull the stitches apart. She's being very good at getting it covered before going outside. The vet gave us IV bags to go over the bandage.Those are the greatest thing... really thing and much better than grocery bags. Hannah is running around like nothing even happened to her foot. She's not even limping. She's bounced back really well. Now it's just a matter of waiting for the biopsy results. I'll let you know what we find out... everyone keep their fingers crossed that it's benign. Sherry & Rob Hartung [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kitchener Ontario Canada
Re: more on bitches
That is very good information. What about what it takes from the bitch's body to "grow" puppies and to nurse them? That is the part that I would think would be hard on a bitch. Mary-Ann Bowman
more on bitches
When discussing pregnancies, and reproductive cycles, we need to understand that bitches are not humans in their physiology - with all respect to Vilma and her knowledge of human reproduction (hi there!). And bitches are not little cows, either. So much of the knowledge of animal husbandry we know from animals other than bitches, does not apply to bitches! We do know that the health and nutrition of any animal is important in reproduction. And we need to remember that it's the timing of the breeding, genetics, and the *health of the uterus* that determine litter size. I plead ignorance about human ovulation. But a bitch is the only domestic animal whose ova are ovulated into a progesterone environment, not the estrogen environment of other animals. And a bitch ovulates an immature egg that requires further division before fertilization can occur. A fertilized egg implants in the uterus at Day 17-18. Whether or not a bitch is in fact bred and becomes pregnant, or not, when she goes through her cycle, her uterus acts exactly as if it is pregnant. The hormonal levels that change with a cycle change and apply regardless of whether there are puppies. The progesterone levels affecting the uterus each cycle are at the same level, and last as long in the bitch, whether she is bred or not. So the uterus is not "rested" or "spared" or "saved" by skipping a cycle. The only difference to the uterus is whether there are puppies in it. If we look at this from a non-anthopomorphic viewpoint, it is healthier for the bitch, and healthier for the uterus - if one wishes to have a bitch produce well - to breed her back to back until you no longer wish to have puppies from her. I know this sounds like heresy to some folks, and I am *not* advocating turning every breeding program in to a puppy mill, so let's not carried away here. If you look at the uterus of the bitch 12 weeks after she whelps a litter, it is usually totally healed, and ready to start the process over again. Actually, it usually does start the process all over again. By Day 16-17 of her cycle, if you didn't breed her, the process starts all over again. Bitches never go into menopause. And when 5 of them all living in the same house come in season in the same week - well, they don't call them bitches for nothing. Libby Kesner and the Berner girls of Maine Voorheesville NY USA
Fw: question
- Original Message - From: "Charles and Kay Sloate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Mary-Ann Bowman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 10:17 AM Subject: Re: question > Mary-Ann, > > Good question. Without knowing what year the female in question was born, > and assuming that she starting whelping on her first heat after turning two, > which is probably being overly generous, there are some interesting > possibilities that most of us would never wish on our girls. If she only > had one litter a year, that would mean that she was having pups well into > her eighth or ninth year. That would be a line with great fertility in it. > Another possibility would be back-to-back breedings, and then maybe > skipping one cycle. How many puppies does it show her having in those six > litters? Not being a breeder myself, I was wondering, assuming that your > girl does not have fertility problems and has a litter each time that there > is a planned breeding, at what age, and how many litters before she is > retired from a breeding program? My guess would be something like four > litters. Obviously, this girl has been pushed way beyond the norm. > > And, that is assuming that the info on berner-garde is accurate and > up-to-date. This dog may have more litters than are showing up. My newest > pup is now 10 months old and still not listed, even though I sent the > information in as soon as I got her AKC number back. Her whole litter is > not in berner-garde, as are many others that I know exist, but can't find. > Berner-garde could be such a great resource of information. I used the > reports to help me in my search for a new puppy, but so much of it is > incomplete. Not sure if that is due to backlog of paperwork yet to be > entered or just noncompliance by most people. What a shame that more > breeders are just not bothering to enter whole litters into the system, this > could be such a powerful learning tool if more people participated in > keeping their dogs info up-to-date. > > Kay Sloate > Caddie and Divot >
Re: about "the question"
It is interesting to explore different perspectives, and to understand the reasons that the differences exist :) I suspect that the answer to the question about how many litters is enough will depend on the bitch but perhaps even more on the goals of the breeder and his/her tolerance for risk. I do wonder about the impact of multiple pregnancies. Does anyone have any data/knowledge about the general impact of multiple pregnancies on the body? Vilma -- anything to say about multiple close pregnancies in women?? Mary-Ann Bowman Utah
lose dog-what to do
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about "the question"
Hi Mary Ann, In answer to your question, no, a bitch having whelped six litters does not seem extreme to me. A strong and healthy, easy-whelping, good-mothering bitch that can produce *high quality* offspring over time would be a dream for me and a credit to any breeding program. Looking at numbers of litters alone does not tell the story. We all, as breeders, have different goals for ourselves and our bitches. By all means, if you or any breeder feel that six litters for your bitches would be extreme, don't do it. These breeding decisions depend on both the bitch's abilities, and the breeder's abilities to follow up on what she produces. If one breeds back to back litters, and takes a season off, and repeats this, starting at 2+ years of age, a bitch could have her six litters and finish up at 6-7 years old and have a lovely retirement coming as well. I have to say none of my bitches has had more than 5 litters, but several of them have had that. And lived to 11-12 years. I have also bred a bitch once, and never again. I don't consider a six year old bitch to be "old". I sent a litter of 7 pups to new homes in June, and the bitch celebrated her 6th birthday in July. It was her 5th litter. Her grandam whelped her 5th litter and sent them to new homes the week before her 7th birthday. That bitch lived to over 11. Breeding, as you know, is a time-consuming, hair-raising, challenging, exhausting, thrilling avocation. It can break your heart, and it can make you strong. Doing things by numbers only, is simplistic and misleading. BTW, congratulations on all the new titles your girls have brought home this year! Mooches all around (you, too). Libby Kesner and the Berner girls of Maine Voorheesville NY USA
Re: Chemo - Experience?
This was an interesting perspective...I'll be curious to see if we have the same experience. Our Gretchen is 4 months into a 6 month chemo protocol. She has done very well with the exception of one treatment (two or three days of not herself, vomit, nauseous, diarrhea). We decided at that point that if she got sick from any other doses that we would discontinue the treatments. She's on a rotation of vinblastine, CCNU and an every other day of predisone (5 mg). This is after 15 radiation treatments and surgical removal of a Stage II, dirty margined mast cell tumor in her bottom lip. She has done fine with all subsequent treatments and continues to do all the normal thingsshe'll be 5 next week. Peggy Dixon Methuen, MA Gretchen and Buster It wasn't until > _months_ after we finished the chemo, that I realized how badly he had felt > for those 6 months. It took him about 6 months to be back to his old self. > The change was subtle, so I think people often do not recognize it. I also > think that chemo is usually done to "buy time" and the dog is basically > getting chemo for the remainder of their life, so the owner never has the > chance to see how the dog is feeling after _not_ having chemo for 6 months > or so. Rarely is chemo given to dogs for a "cure", but that was the only > reason I considered it. I know of a couple of other dogs whose owners say > the same thing. These were dogs who underwent chemo "just in case" after > having an aggressive tumor removed. At the time the dog was undergoing > treatment, the owners didn't think they felt bad. Not until months later did > they realize in contrast how badly the dog really was feeling. Just because > a dog is eating doesn't mean they are feeling great, in my opinion. I still > eat when I'm sick, unfortunately! > > > > Jennifer Zaayer > Cardiff by the Sea, CA > Dash, Ti, Moritz, Dunford and Rocchi > >
Early Rising
Sam will be 4 months old tomorrow. He has been an early riser since joining our family (5 am as compared with 6:30 or so for Molly most of the time), and we have adjusted to that schedule. This past week, although the sun is coming up a bit later each day, he has been waking up a bit earlier. He has now begun barking in his crate shortly after 4:30 a.m. Any suggestions for stretching him out a bit? He doesn't seem to be desperate to pee; if anything, he is ravenously hungry. I hate to get him in the habit of eating prior to 5 a.m.!! Somewhat sleep deprived, Martha Hoverson Molly (Morning already?) and Sam (I'm a growing boy, Mom!!) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Portland, Maine _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
