My last words on dewclaws
>From the feed back that I have gotten, it appears that there is a whole range of rear >dew claw conditions out there, from fully attached and flexing to merely suspended by >ligaments. Since I've never seen intact rear dewclaws on a Berner we will have it >leave that up to speculation. So my Christmas present to all is that we are all >right! *<]:-)> (Does that look like Santa?) Seasons Greetings Jim LaFrom San Jose,CA now get out there and work dem workn' dogs
Re: Dewclaws
Hello, For the benefit of those wishing to learn about dew claws the reason I asked Jim about the phrase in his post: <<"If they were better muscled, they probably wouldn't flop around as much and less prone to get hung up in thick brush.">> and if he was still speaking about rear dew claws was because "floppy" rear dew claws do not have any "muscle." Floppy rear dew claws are extra toes that are detached from the bone. They are only attached to the foot by a flap of skin. I have seen them range in size from a little bigger than a sesame seed with a tiny claw, to big dews, or double dews that are larger than the normal toes. Attached dew claws are basically extra toes that are moveable like the other toes. They are sometimes in line with the other toes, sometimes spaced and farther up. These are attached to the bone and are connected to tendons. These, as well as detached dew claws are taken off at birth or within three days of birth because most (not all) breeders feel that they are contrary to the breed standard. Beside the fact that the standard calls for the removal of rear dew claws the detached rear dews (as Jim stated) can easily be hooked on brush etc. and end up ripping that flap of skin, sometimes quite far up the leg. This can be very painful and become a much bigger problem if the wound becomes infected. The front dew claws are usually always attached and functional as "thumbs". We leave those on. If we had a puppy with a detached front dew I would remove it. Otherwise I feel it is an unnecessary amputation. Dew claws, front or rear should be removed no later than 3 days of age. It is a simple proceedure within those three days. If a breeder neglects, or chooses to not remove the rear dew claws on a puppy you bring home at eight weeks old I would advise you to wait until the puppy is neutered/spayed and put under anesthesia to have the vet remove them. If an eight week old puppy has attached dew claws, front or rear it will be quite an operation to amputate them. I'd suggest leaving them as they are. JMO, always check with your puppy's/dog's vet and/or breeder. Bernerly, Mary Jeff & Mary Chapdelaine SnoBear Berners [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://snobear.freeyellow.com
Re: Dewclaws
Yikes, some of the sidebars I get myself into. Lets start again. Before I say anything let me preface this any any future statements that I may make, that I try to speak from my own observations and experiences. I am not an expert and I am not trying to make blanket or all emcompassing statements. That being said, Please reread my first reply again. I never made a statement that there was no skeletal structure in the rear dewclaws. I said...<> Now a explanation of what I meant. By comparison the front dew claws have quite a bit of muscle tone, whereas the rear dew claws seem to not have as much (to the casual observer.)I didn't mean to imply that there was ZERO. Hence even on Pyr's the rear dew claws seem to dangle (and flop around)like little globs of snow hanging off of the fur when gaiting. Expanding on one other sentence <<"If they were better muscled, they probably wouldn't flop around as much and less prone to get hung up in thick brush.">> Wouldn't you think that if 'they' (the rear dew claws)had excellent musculature and tone in the rear dew claws that the dog would hold that 'toe' close to the pastern,not unlike the four other toes? I know... clear as mud. Jim LaFrom San Jose,CA now get out there and work dem workn' dogs
Re: Dewclaws
"If they were better muscled, they probably wouldn't flop around as much and less prone to get hung up in thick brush." > Jim Jim, I'm sorry?? I don't understand? If what were better muscled? Are you still refering to rear dewclaws here? Bernerly, Mary Jeff & Mary Chapdelaine SnoBear Berners N. California, USA http://snobear.freeyellow.com
Re: Dewclaws
I stand corrected. On the dogs I have noticed, mainly mixed breeds, the rear seem very delicately attached, almost vestigial. I haven't had much intensive daily observation with dogs with the rears still intact. Have heard much about their removal to eliminate accidental tearing. If they were better muscled, they probably wouldn't flop around as much and less prone to get hung up in thick brush. Jim now get out there and work dem workn'dogs
RE: dewclaws
Hi Susan, As you know the early horse used to be a bog dweller and had five toes so perhaps now that the dog lives in a world of more tarmac in a few billion years they will only have one toe as well:-) Rose
RE: dewclaws
Hi Pauline, My vet counts to four and removes everything else. I have yet to see the type of skin only dewclaws that I've helped remove from a late friend's beagles. Both single and double have been jointed and attached, on the one occasion I actually had a pup with treble dewclaws the third was a skinny little thing with no boney attachment. I leave the front dewclaws on because it is my preference to do so and I see the dogs actually using them as a thumb when holding their chewies. They are removed as soon as possible after birth and when C-Sectioning they are done as soon as mom is off the table and the vet and tech have cleaned up. He's skilled and the procedure is quick and since we've been doing them straight away and not two to three days later the puppies settle immediately and there is no fussing whatsoever afterwards. When we used to have to wait they were sore for several hours and it was distressing for them and mom and me. Would I choose to leave them on if the standard permitted, no I wouldn't because I think they are unsightly and given the active lifestyle of my dogs more likely to get injured. Rose
Re: dewclaws
- Original Message - From: "Mary-Ann Bowman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Well, just imagine how much better horses would be if only they had dew > claws!!! ;) Well . . . they have chestnuts (also called night eyes) which are the vestigial remains of the fifth toe. It's that funny patch on the inside of the forearm and gaskin. They are like fingerprints--a different pattern for every horse. You can take an impression of them and prove your horse is yours if it is stolen. Actually, horse front leg conformation is really cool--it's like an elongated hand. What we think of as the knee is really a wrist joint; the hoof was the middle finger of the hand. The other fingers are along the cannon and go into the lower joints. I think I should stop now. I sound like a lunatic teacher, lecturing a sleeping class . . . =8-0 Eileen Morgan The Mare's Nest http://www.enter.net/~edlehman --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.419 / Virus Database: 235 - Release Date: 11/13/2002
Re: More dewclaws questions
- Original Message - From: "Michaela Simmons" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Why are rear dewclaws removed? Is it solely to conform to the breed > standard? > Or is there another reason why rear dewclaw should be removed? A lot of folks will tell you dewclaws mean trouble--getting snagged, requiring extra clipping, etc. However, in sighthounds they are thought to be necessary for fast cornering, and slow motion tapes show that they do touch ground at significant moments of exertion. In Great Pyrs, double dewclaws are required on the hind and singles up front; we call it Lliira's 4 wheel drive. :-) I've never had a problem with her dewclaws. Once in a great while someone will post to the list about a snagged or torn dewclaw, but it is not more common that the tearing of any other claw or toe as far as question/comment frequency seems to go. I know dogs who get exercise in rugged terrain do not seem to need the double dewclaws clipped; Lliira and Cassie need very infrequent trimming of the dewclaws (all six of them! or twelve between!). Eileen Morgan The Mare's Nest http://www.enter.net/~edlehman --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.419 / Virus Database: 235 - Release Date: 11/13/2002
More dewclaws questions
Mary-Ann wrote > I remove rear dewclaws only. Why are rear dewclaws removed? Is it solely to conform to the breed standard? Or is there another reason why rear dewclaw should be removed? My younger Berner has a full set of dewclaws ( front and rear) and the nails of the hind dewclaws are a pain. They need constant attention since they grow furiously. Personally, I think rear dewclaws look a bit strange ( mabey because my other Berner hasn't got them?) but other than that, they don't seem to bother my dog. If I recall correctly, his breeder decided against removal because her first litter experieced great pain from the procedure and she wanted to spare the second litter the trauma. TIA for any info Michaela Devon/UK
Re: dewclaws
Well, just imagine how much better horses would be if only they had dew claws!!! ;) Mary-Ann
Re: dewclaws
Thank you Mary Ann. I guess the only time my dogs cantered or galloped was when they took the jumps and they did not seem affected by the lack of dewclaw. I am curious how horses function as the movement you describe is very easily seen in the galloping and cantoring horse although I always thought that the idea of good pasterns was to keep the carpal joint from actually making contact with the ground. Horses do not have dewclaws as we know and were bred to run, unlike our Bernese. Ideas :) Susan Ablon Gweebarra BMD Balch Springs, Tx http://www.pageweb.com/gwebara On Wed, 4 Dec 2002 12:59:44 -0700 "Mary-Ann Bowman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Hi > > Happy to provide info :) > > "A discussion of the dog's foot would not be complete without > mention of the > dew claws. In most dogs, the dew claws are attached to the bones of > the > pastern by a joint. When dogs canter or gallop there is one moment > when a > single front leg remains on the ground, bearing the dog's full > weight. At > that point, even in the lightest dogs, the pastern is flat on the > ground and > the carpal pad is cushioning the carpal joint as it hits the ground. > At that > moment, the dew claw is in contact with the ground and can catch the > ground > as the dog rotates its leg on turning. This allows the dog to take > full > advantage of the ability of the front leg to rotate in its axis. > Some people > who compete with sighthounds in lure-coursing have observed an > increased > incidence of front leg and foot injures in dogs who have had their > dew claws > removed. For this reason, some people prefer not to have their > puppies dew > claws removed. They prefer to give their performance dogs the > advantage of a > functional dew claw and risk possible injury to the dew claw that > might > necessitate its removal later in life." (Zink, C. and Daniels, J. > (1996). > "Jumping from A to Z." Lutherville, MD: Canine Sports Productions.) > > Mary-Ann Bowman > > >
Re: dewclaws
Hi Happy to provide info :) "A discussion of the dog's foot would not be complete without mention of the dew claws. In most dogs, the dew claws are attached to the bones of the pastern by a joint. When dogs canter or gallop there is one moment when a single front leg remains on the ground, bearing the dog's full weight. At that point, even in the lightest dogs, the pastern is flat on the ground and the carpal pad is cushioning the carpal joint as it hits the ground. At that moment, the dew claw is in contact with the ground and can catch the ground as the dog rotates its leg on turning. This allows the dog to take full advantage of the ability of the front leg to rotate in its axis. Some people who compete with sighthounds in lure-coursing have observed an increased incidence of front leg and foot injures in dogs who have had their dew claws removed. For this reason, some people prefer not to have their puppies dew claws removed. They prefer to give their performance dogs the advantage of a functional dew claw and risk possible injury to the dew claw that might necessitate its removal later in life." (Zink, C. and Daniels, J. (1996). "Jumping from A to Z." Lutherville, MD: Canine Sports Productions.) Mary-Ann Bowman
Re: dewclaws
On Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:02:23 -0700 "Mary-Ann Bowman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > ..The front ones seems to actually serve > a > function, especially for performance dogs. I have heard this several times. It has been awhile since I've done any performance work and it was limited to obedience (Granville had his UD) and tracking (Martin had his TD). I never noticed how the dewclaws would have helped in either of these venues. Could you please explain ? Susan Ablon Gweebarra BMD Balch Springs, Tx http://www.pageweb.com/gwebara
Re: dewclaws
Hi Pauline, We recently had a litter of puppies in which several had very large attached rear dews which were just like extra toes. The vet removed them and all was fine. I have also had it seem that the occasional puppy had no rear dews, or only one, but later on they appeared. The vet said that sometimes the tissue buds for dew claws can remain dormant under the skin only to pop out later on. It can be quite embarassing to happen with a show prospect puppy when it happens and surgery must be done to remove them if they are attached. So we take great care to really feel for a tiny bump under the skin if no rear dews are apparent. If it happens in a pet/companion puppy which will be spayed or neutered it/they can be removed during spay or neuter but it is a lot more painful than at a few days old. : ( We have not removed front dew claws for the last ten years. We only remove them if they are detached or malformed. We feel that they are used like thumbs. We have never had a puppy tear one. Bernerly, Mary Jeff & Mary Chapdelaine SnoBear Berners [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://snobear.freeyellow.com
Re: dewclaws
- Original Message - From: Ruth Reynolds <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Do breeders usually have their BMD pups due claws removed? > > According to the breed standard rear dewclaws should be removed. Aahh, but for the sake of those who have never looked at the dewclaws on newborn puppies - Do you remove only the rear dewclaws that occasionally show up between the foot and hock, loosely attached by skin, or are you talking about those boned-in dewclaws, that appear to be extra toes? I have asked this question of two different people whom I accept to be leading experts on the breed, and got two different answers. On my last litter, I did not remove the boned-in ones, much to my vet's relief (he hates doing it!). No one, so far, has noticed. Pauline Merrick Brimfield, MA USA
Re: dewclaws
I remove rear dewclaws only. The front ones seems to actually serve a function, especially for performance dogs. My vet comes to our home when the puppies are 2-3 days old to remove dewclaws. She numbs the area first and the tiny injection was not problematic for the puppies. Although some objected to being held, the removal of the dewclaws after being numbed did not seemed to bother the puppies. The tiny incision was "superglued" and that was that. Later that day they moaned a bit as I am sure they were sore, but none of the puppies slowed their weight gain so I suspect it was not terribly traumatic (I only had six of ten with rear dewclaws so could compare the two groups in terms of weight gained). However, I would never have dewclaws removed without numbing the area first. It is a surgical procedure, as Ruth indicated, and anything that can be done to make it easier seems important to do. My vet came out yesterday to do check-ups on the ten-pack and to give their first vaccination -- single dose parvo. She observed that none of them were afraid or nervous, as if nothing bad had ever happened to them in their lives. What a wonderful thing to say and hear about a litter of puppies -- all puppies should be so lucky. Mary-Ann Bowman Utah Emma, Abra, Maize and the ten-pack
Re: dewclaws
- Original Message - From: "Hicks, Jackie" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 8:30 AM > Do breeders usually have their BMD pups due claws removed? According to the breed standard rear dewclaws should be removed. According to the breed standard fore dewclaws may be removed. Dewclaw removal should be done at or shortly after birth as this digit amputation is painful. All BMD breeders I work with have had the rear dewclaws removed before I obtained my pups from them. Most of the dogs I've purchased have had their fore dewclaws in tact. I do not remove the fore dewclaws on pups I sell. Some breeders do. Ruth Reynolds Pioneer Bernese Greenwood FL www.jersey.net/~mountaindog/rar
Re: Dewclaws
In a message dated 12/4/2002 9:32:01 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Do breeders usually have their BMD pups due claws removed? In the US, responsible breeders have rear dewclaws removed when pups are a day or two old. Front dews may be either left intact or removed depending on the breeder's preference. Backyard (ie: unknowledgeable) -breeders and puppy mill producers frequently leave them all on. -Sherri Venditti
