Re: hip and elbow dysplasia and rationalizations
I am talking about hip and elbow dysplasia -- not all possible bone issues with a Bernese Mountain Dog. I do not have enough information to have an opinion about all possible bone problems, but I do have enough information to state that elbow and hip dysplasia are inherited diseases. Since these are the "big" issues in the breed, I have been limiting my discussions to these two genetic conditions :) Mary-Ann Bowman Utah
hip and elbow dysplasia and rationalizations
Mary-Ann wrote: << Is it POSSIBLE that some who are most convinced that nutrition is a cause of dysplasia are attempting to rationalize breeding >> Mary-Ann, Its my personal thought that you're attempting to dissect something into black and white that has no absolutes. The variables are as many as there are breeders. I'm certain there are breeders who hope to hide behind nutrition as a reason for HD and/or other skeletal diseases. I'm equally certain there are dogs who have skeletal disorders solely due to malnutrition during growth stages (because I've seen them and know the professional diagnosis). There are so many factors in canine skeletal development that it's implausible to group every abnormality in every situation and stick one generic label on the entire lot (i.e., all skeletal disorders are from genetics, all skeletal disorders are from malnutrition, all skeletal disorders are from environment, all skeletal disorders are from Mars). Allowance must be made for the various factors unique to each situation. Perhaps a solution here lies in the breeder using personal integrity as well as sufficient breeding program insight with objectivity to make breeding decisions. Always assuming, of course, the breeder's goal is to ultimately improve the breed and not just create more berner puppies. As a new breeder, I'm reading all these recent posts and making notes. I find the diverse information interesting and potentially useful. Friendly flames only, please. Bernerly, Esther Wilson http://www.wilpowerkennels.com __ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2
hip and elbow dysplasia and rationalizations?
Is it POSSIBLE that some who are most convinced that nutrition is a cause of dysplasia are attempting to rationalize breeding, for example, a bitch with no elbow clearances from a mother with no elbow clearances? Is it easier to blame nutrition (or injury) rather than just admit that the elbows in the pedigree are shaky? Or perhaps it is easier to discount the opinions of the OFA and GDC, suggesting that the OFA and GDC just offer subjective opinions that might not be accurate? A combination approach might be even better -- nutrition, injury and the OFA offers subjective opinions so breeding another generation with elbow dysplasia is perfectly acceptable! That just does not fly at all. I agree breeders need to look at the whole dog, and decide where to compromise. But I must say that I have much more respect for those who just acknowledge that they are taking chances with elbows or hips because they are trying to achieve this or that goal with the litter, and here is how the risk is mediated than those who ignore the decades of research and suggest that hip and elbow dysplasia is caused by something other than genes. Mary-Ann Bowman Utah
Re: hip and elbow dysplasia
Mary-Ann wrote: "Because when breeders hide behind the belief that diet causes hip and elbow dysplasia, it gives them an excuse not to accept responsibility for the problems that many, many berner owners live with each day." Exactly which "breeders" are you speaking of here in your quote "We need to quit whispering about defects, and gossiping about defects, and instead set up a sound program that allows the standard selection procedures to go on so that we breed good dogs and avoid major defects." George Padgett Mary Jeff & Mary Chapdelaine SnoBear Berners [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://snobear.freeyellow.com
Re: hip and elbow dysplasia
My dearest Pat While I admire your diplomacy (as always :), saying that diet and exercise will make a problem worse is very different from suggesting that diet causes hip and elbow dysplasia. Why does it matter? Because when breeders hide behind the belief that diet causes hip and elbow dysplasia, it gives them an excuse not to accept responsibility for the problems that many, many berner owners live with each day. Bad orthopedics are genetic -- and that is simply the bottom line. Yes, diet and exercise can make the existing problem worse but if a puppy comes up with hip dysplasia, it is NOT the owners fault -- pure and simple. Blaming the owner is simply an excuse not to take responsibility. And it hurts the owners very much -- they do their best and then get blamed at a time when they need support from their breeder :( Many novice people are on the berner-l -- they need to hear the message -- do not accept excuses for bad orthopedics!!! Check the clearances -- ask for copies -- ask about the full siblings, the parents' siblings -- and do not accept excuses (did I say that enough??? :) Hip and elbow dysplasia are inherited conditions!!! If you have a dog with one/both of these problems, you are not a bad berner parent and did not cause the problem!! But yes -- keep that dog lean and well exercised (to their abilities). Amen! Mary-Ann Bowman Utah
Re: hip and elbow dysplasia
Dear Mary-Ann and all, I agree that hip & elbow dysplasia are genetically caused. I also feel that nutrition and environment cause problems too. Over nutrition can cause malformation of femur heads, sockets, etc. Slamming elbows down on hard surfaces can indeed cause FCP. Overweight can cause wearing on joints. I think that I've used enough space on the subject and nothing educational will come from further discussion on this subject. You stated, "Bad things happen to all of us who breed, and the challenge is not to create inventive excuses, but to deal with the issues head on, eyes open, and with both honesty and integrity". I agree. I also learn from my experience and in 18 years of being a breeder and following puppies I've seen some bone injuries and conditions caused by environmental and nutritional factors that could have been prevented with proper control in these areas. I've also seen problems crop up with a perfectly controled, fed dog. Here is a great site with much information on hip & elbow problems, nutrition etc. for anyone wanting to decide for themselves after reading many views. It is important to always continue learning. : ) http://www.workingdogs.com/doc0090.htm Best wishes, Mary Jeff & Mary Chapdelaine SnoBear Berners [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://snobear.freeyellow.com
RE: hip and elbow dysplasia
Of course, you're both right you know. Genetics have to be there for the hip or joint to be malformed, (let's discount injury for the time being), and environment and diet play a role in the expression of those problems. Diet doesn't cause HD, but it can certainly help cause arthritic changes in a borderline case, or worsen a bad case. Diet definitely plays a role. Overweight can put excessive stress on joints, and if those joints are malformed (as in dysplasia), then the dog will undoubtedly have problems. Overweight cuts years off a dog's life. It puts stress on other organs as well. Exercise plays a role. Having sound muscles helps to provide support to joints and slows any sort of degenerative changes. Improperly shaped bones and sockets - that's genes, that's HD/ED. But good diet and exercise can reduce the risk of future degenerative joint disease problems, not eliminate it. Pat Long (& Luther) Berwyn PA
Re: hip and elbow dysplasia
"Relationship of Nutrition to Developmental Skeletal Disease in Young Dogs" for Veterinary Clinical Nutrition, Volume 4, Number 1, 1997, Published by Veterinary Practice Publishing Company, P.O. Box 4457, Santa Barbara, CA 93140, Phone - 805-965-1028, Fax - 805-965-0722. Relationship of Nutrition to Developmental Skeletal Disease in Young Dogs Daniel C. Richardson1 Phillip W. Toll1 Developmental skeletal disease is common in large and giant-breed puppies. One manifestation, hip dysplasia, affects millions of dogs. Genetics, environment, and nutrition all contribute to developmental skeletal disease. Of the nutritional components, rate of growth, specific nutrients, food amounts consumed, and feeding methods influence skeletal disease. Excess energy and calcium are known risk factors; therefore, the level of these nutrients in the food should be near the Association of American Feed Control Officials minimum requirement. Complete article can be viewed at: http://www.ilovemypet.com/jackart.html Mary, Jeff & Mary Chapdelaine SnoBear Berners [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://snobear.freeyellow.com
hip and elbow dysplasia
Critically evaluating a source of information is important to anyone interested in gaining knowledge. All sources are not equal, and the mere fact that something is published someplace does not make it correct. There is no doubt that hip and elbow dysplasia are caused by genetics. It is also true that certain factors can make it worse -- but the underlying predisposition has to be there -- caused by genes! The problem with making excuses is that it prevents us from dealing with the real issue. Right now a friend of mine has a berner recovering from elbow surgery -- he is barely a year. I watched him grow up, know his owner, and can tell you she did nothing wrong and that the dog was symptomatic very early. Where is the breeder in all this?? Bad mouthing the owner even though her bitch has thrown other kids with orthopedic issues. Who wins in that situation?? Nobody. And is that a unique situation -- absolutely not. Bad things happen to all of us who breed, and the challenge is not to create inventive excuses, but to deal with the issues head on, eyes open, and with both honesty and integrity. Mary-Ann Bowman Utah
