Re: BIND Masters and slaves

[Victoria Risk]

We have decided to put the list into general moderation because it feels like 
there is nothing substantive to add on this topic and it seems like we might 
benefit from a cooling off period before anyone gets more upset. We will push 
through any posts on any other topic (about BIND anyway), and will remove the 
moderation flag in a day or two.

If anyone wants to object, they can email me directly, or just mail to the list 
and I will see it even if it isn’t posted. 

Vicky
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Re: BIND Masters and slaves

[Victoria Risk]

Wow. This topic has generated a lot of comment. 

We at ISC decided in 2017 to provide aliases for the master/slave terminology 
in BIND so users who don’t wish to use those terms don’t have to.  It was not a 
burden to make this change in the source code. 

Back when we made that initial change, I personally received several private 
emails from actual BIND users who had felt triggered, offended or otherwise 
distracted by the master/slave terminology, thanking us for making this change. 
 If even one or two users were upset by the old terms, that is enough, and 
surely there are more users who were impacted who didn’t speak up.  

We are now in the process of updating the terminology used in the BIND ARM. 
These edits are in review now (along with many other updates to the ARM.)

At the time we made the initial change we didn’t have a process for removing 
obsolete features so we just added an alias. Now that we do(1), we would like 
to implement that process to gradually deprecate the master/slave terms in 
favor of primary/secondary.  We would introduce a warning in 9.18, mark the old 
terms as deprecated in 9.20, and remove them in 9.21 (development branch). So, 
the master/slave terms will still work in the 9.20 Extended Support Version 
through its lifetime, which ends at the end of 2025. This constitutes an 8-year 
period for this change, which should be enough for even the most change-averse 
among us to adapt. 

We are trying to ensure that this project is as inclusive as possible. BIND and 
the DNS are complicated enough without adding additional barriers. This seems 
like a reasonable accommodation. If this change (over the next 6 years) will 
cause you a signficant problem, please say so, but we don’t need to continue 
discussing whether it is worth the effort any more, because we are already 
convinced it is worth the effort on our part. 

Vicky Risk


Victoria Risk
Product Manager
Internet Systems Consortium
vi...@isc.org

(1) https://kb.isc.org/docs/policy-for-removing-namedconf-options



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Re: BIND Masters and slaves

[Michael De Roover]

People call me weeb and say the word autistic often, which are because.. 
well, I am a weeb (as in I like anime) and some conversations on the 
internet are just autistic. I have Asperger's Syndrome and am a weeb 
myself. I am not offended by either, short of people inappropriately 
calling me so (not very often!). It seems that the same applies from 
e.g. the black community.


I can only talk about my own "diseases" and the impact upon me. I have 
been in healthcare for about a decade for the Asperger's Syndrome part 
which I will focus on. It has no relation the black community whatsoever 
but is similarly an underrepresented and misrepresented community. It is 
also a minority. With that aside, I seek no sympathy whatsoever on any 
of that. I got out of those bullshit institutions out of willpower, they 
sought to repress it all, taking out of my hands any task that would 
require any responsibility whatsoever. I actively pushed against all of 
that for all that time because I knew that I wouldn't want to stay in 
those places forever, and instead be a fully functional member of 
society. And here I am. Living on my own for 3 years so far, doing just 
fine. I do not consider Asperger's Syndrome a disease at this point, 
rather a cognitive boost since usually AS means that there is a 
significant boost in logic ability, at the cost of social ability. 
Please keep that in mind when judging my messages, but other than that I 
couldn't care less about my "disease".


What I'm trying to say through similar advocating to ban "bad words" 
like autism that I've experienced is that most likely the community 
these Twitter people seek to advocate for.. usually don't care. Case in 
point, yours truly. You can call me autistic and I'd really just say - 
more power to you and I guess I am on the internet after all where 
nobody gives a damn. And more power to the internet for being that way.


Let's solve actual problems such as waiting lists for autists in their 
youth from being allowed to professional healthcare institutions where 
they can learn to cope with it. Myself, I had to wait for several years 
multiple times because government just keeps on cutting the healthcare 
budget which hurts our sector the most, despite promising the exact 
opposite during elections. Shorten the waiting lists! Oh crap the budget 
is cut again and waiting lists have to be extended yet again. Thank you 
dear politician who did the same crap all over again!


Fight for real causes, not what I can only describe as censorship which 
doesn't help anyone.


On 6/15/20 9:33 PM, Gregory Sloop wrote:

Re: BIND Masters and slaves This whole discussion seems so misguided.
The TLDR; version, at least for me is;
Does it really cost you that much to use language that's polite and 
kind to those around you, and change that language to live up to those 
ideals when you can?


Sure you _have the right_ to run down the street and yell 
impolite/angry/mysoginistic epithets and racial insults at those 
around you.


But rather than focusing on _your rights_, how about spending a few 
minutes considering how you'd feel if people did equally insensitive 
things to your mom, you sister, your wife, or your best friend.


When viewed from that perspective, the "outrage" at not using/changing 
terms like master/slave in BIND seem, at least to my mind, kind of 
hyperbolic.


You can call it politically correct, but I generally like to call it 
"being nice" or "polite" or "kind."
When did it suddenly become so wrong to be gentle, kind and caring? 
[That's a rhetorical question, so no need to "answer" it.]


The BIND and DHCP lists have historically been incredible lists for 
really polite and helpful people over the many years I've subscribed 
and participated. IME, these lists have been far superior to nearly 
any other lists I've been a part of. Super helpful. Really nice 
people> Super respectful. Totally awesome. I'm nearly always chuffed 
to see the behavior here.


I hope that continues.


*MDR> Completely aside from the topic at hand, I often like to think that
MDR> after a few years I mastered something. System administration,
MDR> electronics, programming, whatever has piqued my interest for several
MDR> years already and got me to invest in it. It is never true. The first
MDR> profession I pursued was system administration and Linux in general.
MDR> Even today I still learn so much on the daily. Mastery? I may be
MDR> experienced with Linux but mastery is still far ahead... It's quite
MDR> interesting how deep the rabbit hole can go. What matters is how 
deep we

MDR> want it to go I guess.

MDR> Crackerjack is an interesting name, if anything I'd just want it for
MDR> shits and giggles :D

MDR> On 6/15/20 9:07 PM, Brett Delmage wrote:
>> After I feel I have mastered DNS and BIND after slaving over the docs
>> and c

Re: [Non-DoD Source] BIND Masters and slaves

[bind-lists]

I have been teaching informal DNS classes at work for decades, and I used to be 
very careful to use “master” and “slave” and would include a section where I 
pointed out that using “primary” and “secondary” instead was not correct. Then 
about 10 years ago one person in class pointed out to me that for some people 
when they hear that terminology it really bothers them because of what slavery 
means. When she said that a few other people nodded and agreed. I hadn’t 
thought about that aspect of it, and so someone had to explain to me how 
jarring and distracting from the subject matter that could be for some people. 
I’ve used “primary” and “secondary” in all my classes and documentation since 
then. Not because of twitter and social media or because I have an image to 
uphold, but in order to be considerate of other people’s feelings and not 
dismiss them because they’re so different from mine.

I would like to see the terms replaced by something that doesn’t hearken back 
to tragedy and torture.

Maria

> On Jun 15, 2020, at 2:15 PM, Michael De Roover  wrote:
> 
> Of course I could, but I do not feel like the effort to change nomenclature 
> is either beneficial or worth taking for granted the requests of some people 
> on Twitter - as the slave to peer authority I am - given how much it affects 
> documentation, code, comments, general environment of the projects 
> themselves. I enjoy being surrounded by people much smarter than I am when it 
> comes to the mailing list here. Let's keep it that way and not derange 
> ourselves into meaningless blabber from social media.
> 
> What I did notice over time however that most of the projects affected are 
> also those who do have to maintain a good public image, usually corporations. 
> Meanwhile projects such as Opal  and 
> recently Rubocop  as well 
> were not. The latter one I'd like to draw attention to. The maintainer 
> clearly didn't ask for this and asked everyone who shamed him, why are you 
> doing this? None of the complainers were affiliated to the project at all. 
> Chances are that they weren't even using it and just searched for projects 
> with the name "cop" in it instead. These are not the people I want to support 
> in my effort to end racism, which I do support, and quite heavily so.
> 
> On 6/15/20 8:00 PM, DeCaro, James John (Jim) CIV DISA FE (USA) wrote:
>> Or you can call the slave servers 'secondary' servers.  
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke groet / Best regards,
> Michael De Roover

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Re: BIND Masters and slaves

[G.W. Haywood via bind-users]

Hi there,

On Mon, 15 Jun 2020, bind-users-requ...@lists.isc.org wrote - and wrote, and 
wrote:


... [all sniped] ...


Please guys[1], stop it.

--

73,
Ged.
[1] The masculine embraces the feminine where the context permits.
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Re: BIND Masters and slaves

[Parkin, Richard (R.)]

I just got into a disagreement with a couple of people on this.  I’m sure this 
won’t be much different.

My feeling is that we’re dealing with software and things here and not people.  
A Master is simply an authoritative source in this context.  It has nothing to 
do with enslaving human beings.

Abolishing words that mean something doesn’t erase the ugly, evil nature of 
racism and other societal ills.  Did no one in this generation read and 
understand ‘1984’?  Or did they think it was a good “How-To” manual?

Changing these is a nearly meaningless symbolic gesture that makes it look like 
something happened when nothing really changed in the social context.  The 
irony is that a different kind of domination won out.  And what is the economic 
cost of making these kinds of changes?  Does that time and money go toward any 
real change, or is it just lost?

Are we going to have to stop using the word “Server” next?  Because that kind 
of thought policing offends *me*.  This way lies madness.  The continual caving 
in to political correctness just encourages people to keep doing it.

That said, I’ve long interchangeably used Master and Primary, Slave and 
Secondary.  They’re still descriptive of the process that didn’t change.  I’m 
okay with that.  What I’m not okay with are non-backward compatible syntax 
changes in the configuration files just for the sake of appearances.  That 
affects all of us in a very non-positive way.  If BIND syntax can reliably use 
both forms interchangeably for the next 5-10 years and allow a gradual change, 
fine.

Rich Parkin
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Re: BIND Masters and slaves

[Ted Hatfield]

On Mon, 15 Jun 2020, Mauricio Tavares wrote:


On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:38 AM Tony Finch  wrote:


Vin?cius Ferr?o via bind-users  wrote:


But the prevalence of terms are still master and slave. And I really
hope this thing of changing nomenclatures doesn?t go any further due to
political correctness.


"Political correctness" just means being considerate for other people,
especially people who do not have many of the advantages we might take for
granted.



Being considerate to others should not be associated with politics,
something the term "political correctness" is.

There is a term in Africa for those who use "especially people who do
not have many of the advantages we might take for granted" in their
sentences; it is not a particularly positive term.


Regardless of whether you consider this a political issue or not the 
terminology master/slave has a poor connotation for large swathes of the 
general public.


In the time we live in the change from master/slave to primary/secondary 
is both justified and appropriate.


Although nobody likes to change, this is a fairly minor issue and not 
deserving of complaint.


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Re: BIND Masters and slaves

[Gregory Sloop]

This whole discussion seems so misguided.
The TLDR; version, at least for me is;
Does it really cost you that much to use language that's polite and kind to 
those around you, and change that language to live up to those ideals when you 
can?

Sure you _have the right_ to run down the street and yell 
impolite/angry/mysoginistic epithets and racial insults at those around you. 

But rather than focusing on _your rights_, how about spending a few minutes 
considering how you'd feel if people did equally insensitive things to your 
mom, you sister, your wife, or your best friend.

When viewed from that perspective, the "outrage" at not using/changing terms 
like master/slave in BIND seem, at least to my mind, kind of hyperbolic.

You can call it politically correct, but I generally like to call it "being 
nice" or "polite" or "kind." 
When did it suddenly become so wrong to be gentle, kind and caring? [That's a 
rhetorical question, so no need to "answer" it.]

The BIND and DHCP lists have historically been incredible lists for really 
polite and helpful people over the many years I've subscribed and participated. 
IME, these lists have been far superior to nearly any other lists I've been a 
part of. Super helpful. Really nice people> Super respectful. Totally awesome. 
I'm nearly always chuffed to see the behavior here.

I hope that continues.


MDR> Completely aside from the topic at hand, I often like to think that 
MDR> after a few years I mastered something. System administration, 
MDR> electronics, programming, whatever has piqued my interest for several 
MDR> years already and got me to invest in it. It is never true. The first 
MDR> profession I pursued was system administration and Linux in general. 
MDR> Even today I still learn so much on the daily. Mastery? I may be 
MDR> experienced with Linux but mastery is still far ahead... It's quite 
MDR> interesting how deep the rabbit hole can go. What matters is how deep we
MDR> want it to go I guess.

MDR> Crackerjack is an interesting name, if anything I'd just want it for 
MDR> shits and giggles :D

MDR> On 6/15/20 9:07 PM, Brett Delmage wrote:
>> After I feel I have mastered DNS and BIND after slaving over the docs 
>> and code for years (I'm not there yet, and I have not) how am I going 
>> to communicate this to people?

>> How will I be able to master anything technical anymore? Should I just 
>> stop trying?


>> Thesaurus.com suggests that one could call one type of DNS server the 
>> "crackerjack" server instead. I guess that's an improvement over 
>> "cracked". "Ace" server is a suggested alternative too, and it's 
>> nicely terse.

>> https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/master?s=t___
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Re: BIND Masters and slaves

[Mauricio Tavares]

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:38 AM Tony Finch  wrote:
>
> Vinícius Ferrão via bind-users  wrote:
> >
> > But the prevalence of terms are still master and slave. And I really
> > hope this thing of changing nomenclatures doesn’t go any further due to
> > political correctness.
>
> "Political correctness" just means being considerate for other people,
> especially people who do not have many of the advantages we might take for
> granted.
>

Being considerate to others should not be associated with politics,
something the term "political correctness" is.

There is a term in Africa for those who use "especially people who do
not have many of the advantages we might take for granted" in their
sentences; it is not a particularly positive term.
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Re: BIND Masters and slaves

[Michael De Roover]

Completely aside from the topic at hand, I often like to think that 
after a few years I mastered something. System administration, 
electronics, programming, whatever has piqued my interest for several 
years already and got me to invest in it. It is never true. The first 
profession I pursued was system administration and Linux in general. 
Even today I still learn so much on the daily. Mastery? I may be 
experienced with Linux but mastery is still far ahead... It's quite 
interesting how deep the rabbit hole can go. What matters is how deep we 
want it to go I guess.


Crackerjack is an interesting name, if anything I'd just want it for 
shits and giggles :D


On 6/15/20 9:07 PM, Brett Delmage wrote:
After I feel I have mastered DNS and BIND after slaving over the docs 
and code for years (I'm not there yet, and I have not) how am I going 
to communicate this to people?


How will I be able to master anything technical anymore? Should I just 
stop trying?



Thesaurus.com suggests that one could call one type of DNS server the 
"crackerjack" server instead. I guess that's an improvement over 
"cracked". "Ace" server is a suggested alternative too, and it's 
nicely terse.


https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/master?s=t


--
Met vriendelijke groet / Best regards,
Michael De Roover
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Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: BIND Masters and slaves

[Tony Finch]

Kevin Darcy  wrote:
>
> The "master" nomenclature is appropriate from a *data*dependency*
> standpoint. The "master" holds the "master copy" of the zone contents (
> https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/master-copy). All
> other copies are duplicates of that.

There isn't in general a single source of truth for zone data in many DNS
setups. For example, much of the zone contents may come from a database,
possibly augmented by a zone file fragment, and there may be a separate
signing server that keys its keys from a third place. So it's wrong to
insist that the bad old terminology has to be used with the DNS, because
it's often completely incorrect.

Tony.
-- 
f.anthony.n.finchhttp://dotat.at/
Bailey: Cyclonic, mainly northwest, 3 to 5. Moderate, occasionally slight at
first in east. Occasional rain. Good, occasionally poor.
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Re: BIND Masters and slaves

[Brett Delmage]

After I feel I have mastered DNS and BIND after slaving over the docs and 
code for years (I'm not there yet, and I have not) how am I going to 
communicate this to people?


How will I be able to master anything technical anymore? Should I just 
stop trying?



Thesaurus.com suggests that one could call one type of DNS server the 
"crackerjack" server instead. I guess that's an improvement over 
"cracked". "Ace" server is a suggested alternative too, and it's nicely 
terse.


https://www.thesaurus.com/browse/master?s=t




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Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: BIND Masters and slaves

[Leroy Tennison]

I sense an RFC has already dictated primary and secondary but, if not and we're 
going to go to the trouble of renaming something, let's name it right such as 
"source" and "copy".


From: bind-users  on behalf of Tim Daneliuk 

Sent: Monday, June 15, 2020 1:33 PM
To: bind-users@lists.isc.org 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: BIND Masters and slaves

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On 6/15/20 1:15 PM, Michael De Roover wrote:
> Of course I could, but I do not feel like the effort to change nomenclature 
> is either beneficial or worth taking for granted the requests of some people 
> on Twitter - as the slave to peer authority I am - given how much it affects 
> documentation, code, comments, general environment of the projects 
> themselves. I enjoy being surrounded by people much smarter than I am when it 
> comes to the mailing list here. Let's keep it that way and not derange 
> ourselves into meaningless blabber from social media.
>
> What I did notice over time however that most of the projects affected are 
> also those who do have to maintain a good public image, usually corporations. 
> Meanwhile projects such as Opal <https://github.com/opal/opal/issues/941> and 
> recently Rubocop <https://github.com/rubocop-hq/rubocop/issues/8091> as well 
> were not. The latter one I'd like to draw attention to. The maintainer 
> clearly didn't ask for this and asked everyone who shamed him, why are you 
> doing this? None of the complainers were affiliated to the project at all. 
> Chances are that they weren't even using it and just searched for projects 
> with the name "cop" in it instead. These are not the people I want to support 
> in my effort to end racism, which I /do/ support, and quite heavily so.
>


Hear Hear -


This isn't political.  It's just dumb.

P.S. I wish the people all spun up on terminological trivia would actually
expend their energy and activist voice to stop _real_ slavery which
goes on routinely in parts of Africa, Eastern Europe, and in China
every single day.  But trying to grasp what is happening, say, to the
Uyghurs is just way more work than your virtue card punched ...
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Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: BIND Masters and slaves

[Tim Daneliuk]

On 6/15/20 1:15 PM, Michael De Roover wrote:
> Of course I could, but I do not feel like the effort to change nomenclature 
> is either beneficial or worth taking for granted the requests of some people 
> on Twitter - as the slave to peer authority I am - given how much it affects 
> documentation, code, comments, general environment of the projects 
> themselves. I enjoy being surrounded by people much smarter than I am when it 
> comes to the mailing list here. Let's keep it that way and not derange 
> ourselves into meaningless blabber from social media.
> 
> What I did notice over time however that most of the projects affected are 
> also those who do have to maintain a good public image, usually corporations. 
> Meanwhile projects such as Opal  and 
> recently Rubocop  as well 
> were not. The latter one I'd like to draw attention to. The maintainer 
> clearly didn't ask for this and asked everyone who shamed him, why are you 
> doing this? None of the complainers were affiliated to the project at all. 
> Chances are that they weren't even using it and just searched for projects 
> with the name "cop" in it instead. These are not the people I want to support 
> in my effort to end racism, which I /do/ support, and quite heavily so.
> 


Hear Hear -


This isn't political.  It's just dumb.

P.S. I wish the people all spun up on terminological trivia would actually
expend their energy and activist voice to stop _real_ slavery which
goes on routinely in parts of Africa, Eastern Europe, and in China
every single day.  But trying to grasp what is happening, say, to the
Uyghurs is just way more work than your virtue card punched ...
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Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: BIND Masters and slaves

[Michael De Roover]

Of course I could, but I do not feel like the effort to change 
nomenclature is either beneficial or worth taking for granted the 
requests of some people on Twitter - as the slave to peer authority I am 
- given how much it affects documentation, code, comments, general 
environment of the projects themselves. I enjoy being surrounded by 
people much smarter than I am when it comes to the mailing list here. 
Let's keep it that way and not derange ourselves into meaningless 
blabber from social media.


What I did notice over time however that most of the projects affected 
are also those who do have to maintain a good public image, usually 
corporations. Meanwhile projects such as Opal 
 and recently Rubocop 
 as well were not. 
The latter one I'd like to draw attention to. The maintainer clearly 
didn't ask for this and asked everyone who shamed him, why are you doing 
this? None of the complainers were affiliated to the project at all. 
Chances are that they weren't even using it and just searched for 
projects with the name "cop" in it instead. These are not the people I 
want to support in my effort to end racism, which I /do/ support, and 
quite heavily so.


On 6/15/20 8:00 PM, DeCaro, James John (Jim) CIV DISA FE (USA) wrote:

Or you can call the slave servers 'secondary' servers.

--
Met vriendelijke groet / Best regards,
Michael De Roover
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Re: [Non-DoD Source] Re: BIND Masters and slaves

[Ben Lavender]

Some servers already do

Regards

Ben Lavender

On Mon, 15 Jun 2020, 19:02 DeCaro, James John (Jim) CIV DISA FE (USA) via
bind-users,  wrote:

> Or you can call the slave servers 'secondary' servers.
>
>
> V/R
> Jim DeCaro
> DISA
> Systems Administrator
> Windows and Unix Server Operations
> FE222/DoDNet Service Section
> Defense Enclave Services Directorate
> ☎ 301-225-8180
> ☎ 301-375-8180
> james.j.decaro3@mail.mil
> james.j.decaro3@mail.smil.mil
>
> "If you always do what you always did you will always get what you always
> got."
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: bind-users  On Behalf Of Michael
> De Roover
> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2020 1:32 PM
> To: bind-users@lists.isc.org
> Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: BIND Masters and slaves
>
> All active links contained in this email were disabled. Please verify the
> identity of the sender, and confirm the authenticity of all links contained
> within the message prior to copying and pasting the address to a Web
> browser.
>
>
> 
>
>
>
>
> I concur with this. I'm still fairly new to BIND and DNS myself. I
> maintain 7 name servers (3 internal, 4 external) and master does signify to
> me that this is the server in control of the zone files for the other ones
> in that pool. The slaves are pretty much that to me, they take the zone
> files and apply them while not having any further control over the zone
> files themselves. In my external name servers it also goes paired with
> authority - slave authorities that are authoritative to the internet but
> slaves in that they replicate from an internal master. This is not
> something you'd see in real slavery, signifying that this is mere technical
> jargon. Is it a heavy term? Yes. Should we support "black lives matter" and
> condemn the completely egregious actions committed by the police officers
> towards George Floyd? Absolutely, and I hope that the former officers get
> convicted for not just manslaughter but murder, and that more protests will
> emerge (minus the plundering which was the case here in Brussels).
>
> However, changing a name and going for censorship of technical jargon
> which will only confuse newcomers who will now face duplicate nomenclature
> changes NOTHING. George Floyd wouldn't have been able to survive just
> because we give things a different name. Instead we'd border closer to
> censorship which we had during the wars, and still do in heavily oppressed
> countries like North Korea, China etc. It's ironic that what these people
> are pushing for in practice is exactly the thing they seemingly seek to
> eradicate.
>
> There is another relevant case where GitHub will apparently replace master
> branches in all their repositories. I'm really glad to be unaffected with
> my Gitea server. I may have to adjust my repository mirrors from GitHub
> however. For GitHub users, that change will likely break every one of their
> repositories that defaults to master and require adjustments from GitHub
> users of which many might not even know what branches are. That's the real
> impact of that and I find it deeply worrying.
>
> I do not want such a thing to happen to BIND just to please some people
> with large followings on Twitter who other than that, often have no
> affiliation with the project whatsoever.
>
>
> On 6/15/20 12:53 AM, Vinícius Ferrão via bind-users wrote:
>
>
> ISC had a statement about it a time ago: Caution-
> https://twitter.com/ISCdotORG/status/942815837299253248 < Caution-
> https://twitter.com/ISCdotORG/status/942815837299253248 >
>
> You can now call primary and secondary zones. But the prevalence
> of terms are still master and slave. And I really hope this thing of
> changing nomenclatures doesn’t go any further due to political correctness.
>
> For the newcomers it’s not OK to break years of terms, software
> and documentation just because some people can’t handle terms like master
> and slave. Slavery still exists today and making the word disappear will
> not solve the issue.
>
> And you’re correct about the BDSM thing. It’s a waste of time,
> efforts and lines of code.
>
>
> --
> Met vriendelijke groet / Best regards,
> Michael De Roover
> ___
> Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to
> unsubscribe from this list
>
> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support
> subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more
> information.
>
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>
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RE: [Non-DoD Source] Re: BIND Masters and slaves

[DeCaro, James John (Jim) CIV DISA FE (USA) via bind-users]

Or you can call the slave servers 'secondary' servers.  


V/R
Jim DeCaro
DISA
Systems Administrator
Windows and Unix Server Operations
FE222/DoDNet Service Section
Defense Enclave Services Directorate
☎ 301-225-8180 
☎ 301-375-8180 
james.j.decaro3@mail.mil
james.j.decaro3@mail.smil.mil

"If you always do what you always did you will always get what you always got."


-Original Message-
From: bind-users  On Behalf Of Michael De 
Roover
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2020 1:32 PM
To: bind-users@lists.isc.org
Subject: [Non-DoD Source] Re: BIND Masters and slaves

All active links contained in this email were disabled. Please verify the 
identity of the sender, and confirm the authenticity of all links contained 
within the message prior to copying and pasting the address to a Web browser. 







I concur with this. I'm still fairly new to BIND and DNS myself. I maintain 7 
name servers (3 internal, 4 external) and master does signify to me that this 
is the server in control of the zone files for the other ones in that pool. The 
slaves are pretty much that to me, they take the zone files and apply them 
while not having any further control over the zone files themselves. In my 
external name servers it also goes paired with authority - slave authorities 
that are authoritative to the internet but slaves in that they replicate from 
an internal master. This is not something you'd see in real slavery, signifying 
that this is mere technical jargon. Is it a heavy term? Yes. Should we support 
"black lives matter" and condemn the completely egregious actions committed by 
the police officers towards George Floyd? Absolutely, and I hope that the 
former officers get convicted for not just manslaughter but murder, and that 
more protests will emerge (minus the plundering which was the case here in 
Brussels).

However, changing a name and going for censorship of technical jargon which 
will only confuse newcomers who will now face duplicate nomenclature changes 
NOTHING. George Floyd wouldn't have been able to survive just because we give 
things a different name. Instead we'd border closer to censorship which we had 
during the wars, and still do in heavily oppressed countries like North Korea, 
China etc. It's ironic that what these people are pushing for in practice is 
exactly the thing they seemingly seek to eradicate.

There is another relevant case where GitHub will apparently replace master 
branches in all their repositories. I'm really glad to be unaffected with my 
Gitea server. I may have to adjust my repository mirrors from GitHub however. 
For GitHub users, that change will likely break every one of their repositories 
that defaults to master and require adjustments from GitHub users of which many 
might not even know what branches are. That's the real impact of that and I 
find it deeply worrying.

I do not want such a thing to happen to BIND just to please some people with 
large followings on Twitter who other than that, often have no affiliation with 
the project whatsoever.


On 6/15/20 12:53 AM, Vinícius Ferrão via bind-users wrote:


ISC had a statement about it a time ago: 
Caution-https://twitter.com/ISCdotORG/status/942815837299253248 < 
Caution-https://twitter.com/ISCdotORG/status/942815837299253248 > 

You can now call primary and secondary zones. But the prevalence of 
terms are still master and slave. And I really hope this thing of changing 
nomenclatures doesn’t go any further due to political correctness.

For the newcomers it’s not OK to break years of terms, software and 
documentation just because some people can’t handle terms like master and 
slave. Slavery still exists today and making the word disappear will not solve 
the issue.

And you’re correct about the BDSM thing. It’s a waste of time, efforts 
and lines of code.


-- 
Met vriendelijke groet / Best regards,
Michael De Roover
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Re: BIND Masters and slaves

[Michael De Roover]

I concur with this. I'm still fairly new to BIND and DNS myself. I 
maintain 7 name servers (3 internal, 4 external) and master does signify 
to me that this is the server in control of the zone files for the other 
ones in that pool. The slaves are pretty much that to me, they take the 
zone files and apply them while not having any further control over the 
zone files themselves. In my external name servers it also goes paired 
with authority - slave authorities that are authoritative to the 
internet but slaves in that they replicate from an internal master. This 
is not something you'd see in real slavery, signifying that this is mere 
technical jargon. Is it a heavy term? Yes. Should we support "black 
lives matter" and condemn the completely egregious actions committed by 
the police officers towards George Floyd? Absolutely, and I hope that 
the former officers get convicted for not just manslaughter but murder, 
and that more protests will emerge (minus the plundering which was the 
case here in Brussels).


However, changing a name and going for censorship of technical jargon 
which will only confuse newcomers who will now face duplicate 
nomenclature changes NOTHING. George Floyd wouldn't have been able to 
survive just because we give things a different name. Instead we'd 
border closer to censorship which we had during the wars, and still do 
in heavily oppressed countries like North Korea, China etc. It's ironic 
that what these people are pushing for in practice is exactly the thing 
they seemingly seek to eradicate.


There is another relevant case where GitHub will apparently replace 
master branches in all their repositories. I'm really glad to be 
unaffected with my Gitea server. I may have to adjust my repository 
mirrors from GitHub however. For GitHub users, that change will likely 
break every one of their repositories that defaults to master and 
require adjustments from GitHub users of which many might not even know 
what branches are. That's the real impact of that and I find it deeply 
worrying.


I do not want such a thing to happen to BIND just to please some people 
with large followings on Twitter who other than that, often have no 
affiliation with the project whatsoever.


On 6/15/20 12:53 AM, Vinícius Ferrão via bind-users wrote:
ISC had a statement about it a time ago: 
https://twitter.com/ISCdotORG/status/942815837299253248


You can now call primary and secondary zones. But the prevalence of 
terms are still master and slave. And I really hope this thing of 
changing nomenclatures doesn’t go any further due to political 
correctness.


For the newcomers it’s not OK to break years of terms, software and 
documentation just because some people can’t handle terms like master 
and slave. Slavery still exists today and making the word disappear 
will not solve the issue.


And you’re correct about the BDSM thing. It’s a waste of time, efforts 
and lines of code.



--
Met vriendelijke groet / Best regards,
Michael De Roover
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Re: BIND Masters and slaves

[Ben Lavender]

The terminology is fairly misleading, as in the slave is not doing the 
work on-behalf of or instruction of the the master. But there is ways 
for the master to influence the slaves; such as "allow-transfer".


I don't see the big issue with making a terminology change in this case.

On 15/06/2020 15:38, Tony Finch wrote:

Vinícius Ferrão via bind-users  wrote:

But the prevalence of terms are still master and slave. And I really
hope this thing of changing nomenclatures doesn’t go any further due to
political correctness.

"Political correctness" just means being considerate for other people,
especially people who do not have many of the advantages we might take for
granted.

In any case, master/slave is bad terminology because it is actively
misleading. It suggests that zone transfers to downstream servers are
under the control of the upstream servers, which is definitely not the
case. And it suggests a binary categorization of servers which is also
wrong, because zone transfers often form a multi-level cascade between
servers that perform several different functions. It's better to talk
about update servers, signing servers, zone transfer servers, public or
private or stealth authoritative servers. For zone transfers it's better
to talk about which servers are upstream and downstream of each other in
the distribution network.

You should find that your writing is easier to understand, both for
experts and non-experts, if you don't use the bad old terminology.

Tony.

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Re: BIND Masters and slaves

[Tony Finch]

Vinícius Ferrão via bind-users  wrote:
>
> But the prevalence of terms are still master and slave. And I really
> hope this thing of changing nomenclatures doesn’t go any further due to
> political correctness.

"Political correctness" just means being considerate for other people,
especially people who do not have many of the advantages we might take for
granted.

In any case, master/slave is bad terminology because it is actively
misleading. It suggests that zone transfers to downstream servers are
under the control of the upstream servers, which is definitely not the
case. And it suggests a binary categorization of servers which is also
wrong, because zone transfers often form a multi-level cascade between
servers that perform several different functions. It's better to talk
about update servers, signing servers, zone transfer servers, public or
private or stealth authoritative servers. For zone transfers it's better
to talk about which servers are upstream and downstream of each other in
the distribution network.

You should find that your writing is easier to understand, both for
experts and non-experts, if you don't use the bad old terminology.

Tony.
-- 
f.anthony.n.finchhttp://dotat.at/
Plymouth: Cyclonic 3 to 5. Mainly slight. Thundery showers. Good, occasionally
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Re: BIND Masters and slaves

[Ondřej Surý]

Hi Brett,

BIND 9 already uses primary/secondary as keywords and we are actively
working on updating BIND 9 to match the canon defined in RFC 8499.

You can find the latest documentation from the BIND 9 development branch
here: https://bind9.readthedocs.io/en/latest/

Cheers,
Ondrej
--
Ondřej Surý
ond...@isc.org

> On 15 Jun 2020, at 00:38, Brett Delmage  wrote:
> 
> I just read
> GitHub, Android, Python, Go: More Software Adopts Race-Neutral Terminology
> 
> at 
> https://developers.slashdot.org/story/20/06/14/173/github-android-python-go-more-software-adopts-race-neutral-terminology
> 
> The BIND 9.11 Administrator Reference Manual at
> https://kb.isc.org/docs/aa-01493
> still refers to masters and slaves.
> 
> Is this ARM the most recent version?
> 
> Are there any discussions about changing terms?
> 
> Anyway, when one is talking abut BDSM^H^H^H^H BIND, "master" and "slave" are 
> the established terms, I believe?
> 
> ___
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> 
> 
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Re: BIND Masters and slaves

[Nis Wechselberg]

Totally not BIND related, but in BDSM "top" and "bottom" are quite
widely used. So there is a non-slavery-related nomenclature there as well.


Am 15.06.20 um 00:53 schrieb Vinícius Ferrão via bind-users:
> ISC had a statement about it a time
> ago: https://twitter.com/ISCdotORG/status/942815837299253248
> 
> You can now call primary and secondary zones. But the prevalence of
> terms are still master and slave. And I really hope this thing of
> changing nomenclatures doesn’t go any further due to political correctness.
> 
> For the newcomers it’s not OK to break years of terms, software and
> documentation just because some people can’t handle terms like master
> and slave. Slavery still exists today and making the word disappear will
> not solve the issue.
> 
> And you’re correct about the BDSM thing. It’s a waste of time, efforts
> and lines of code.
> 
> Regards,
> 
>> On 14 Jun 2020, at 19:38, Brett Delmage > > wrote:
>>
>> I just read
>> GitHub, Android, Python, Go: More Software Adopts Race-Neutral Terminology
>>
>> at
>> https://developers.slashdot.org/story/20/06/14/173/github-android-python-go-more-software-adopts-race-neutral-terminology
>>
>> The BIND 9.11 Administrator Reference Manual at
>> https://kb.isc.org/docs/aa-01493
>> still refers to masters and slaves.
>>
>> Is this ARM the most recent version?
>>
>> Are there any discussions about changing terms?
>>
>> Anyway, when one is talking abut BDSM^H^H^H^H BIND, "master" and
>> "slave" are the established terms, I believe?
>>
>> ___
>> Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to
>> unsubscribe from this list
>>
>> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support
>> subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more
>> information.
>>
>>
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>> bind-users@lists.isc.org
>> https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
> 
> 
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Re: BIND Masters and slaves

[Brett Delmage]

On Sun, 14 Jun 2020, Vinícius Ferrão wrote:


ISC had a statement about it a time ago: 
https://twitter.com/ISCdotORG/status/942815837299253248


Thanks. I vaguely recalled something but my search didn't turn 
this up.
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Re: BIND Masters and slaves

[Vinícius Ferrão via bind-users]

ISC had a statement about it a time ago: 
https://twitter.com/ISCdotORG/status/942815837299253248

You can now call primary and secondary zones. But the prevalence of terms are 
still master and slave. And I really hope this thing of changing nomenclatures 
doesn’t go any further due to political correctness.

For the newcomers it’s not OK to break years of terms, software and 
documentation just because some people can’t handle terms like master and 
slave. Slavery still exists today and making the word disappear will not solve 
the issue.

And you’re correct about the BDSM thing. It’s a waste of time, efforts and 
lines of code.

Regards,

On 14 Jun 2020, at 19:38, Brett Delmage 
mailto:br...@brettdelmage.ca>> wrote:

I just read
GitHub, Android, Python, Go: More Software Adopts Race-Neutral Terminology

at 
https://developers.slashdot.org/story/20/06/14/173/github-android-python-go-more-software-adopts-race-neutral-terminology

The BIND 9.11 Administrator Reference Manual at
https://kb.isc.org/docs/aa-01493
still refers to masters and slaves.

Is this ARM the most recent version?

Are there any discussions about changing terms?

Anyway, when one is talking abut BDSM^H^H^H^H BIND, "master" and "slave" are 
the established terms, I believe?

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BIND Masters and slaves

[Brett Delmage]

I just read
GitHub, Android, Python, Go: More Software Adopts Race-Neutral Terminology

at 
https://developers.slashdot.org/story/20/06/14/173/github-android-python-go-more-software-adopts-race-neutral-terminology


The BIND 9.11 Administrator Reference Manual at
https://kb.isc.org/docs/aa-01493
still refers to masters and slaves.

Is this ARM the most recent version?

Are there any discussions about changing terms?

Anyway, when one is talking abut BDSM^H^H^H^H BIND, "master" and "slave" 
are the established terms, I believe?


___
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