Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

hello fellow old curmudgeon. :)

I have been wanting to port BrlTTY over to OS X, but it's being a pain in the 
butt. I am not a coder, so my knowledge is a bit limited there. Also, it seems 
that no one has considered porting this most useful of console tools to 
macports.

btw, OS X is not the only OS where Console support is needed. Interestingly 
enough, you can't get any accessibility to work anywhere in OpenBSD. I have 
tried, several times over the years to convince the powers that be (Theo De 
Raadt and company) that accessibility would be a very good addition to the OS. 
I have been rebuffed by Theo personally. Perhaps it time I pay him a visit at 
the next black hat convention in Las Vegas and impress upon him in person the 
kind of people who would benefit from an ultra secure OS that operates strictly 
from command line. perhaps he might listen if confronted in person (although I 
doubt it).

Anyway, having access to the command line with the ease that BrlTTY, Speakup, 
Emacsspeak and some others offer would definitely be a boon for many of us. And 
yes, there are a great many systems admins I know personally who prefer to work 
in a terminal (even the sighted ones!).

-eric

On Mar 2, 2018, at 9:19 AM, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

> Bryan:
> 
> I want to agree. I would expect that anything one reads here is
> someone's opinion. I believe that's a given especially in a nonfactual
> discussion where terms like "best" or "works well" are tossed about.
> 
> Some of us older curmudgeons on the list, perhaps especially yours
> truly, may jump in with some stridancy from time to time, especially
> when people new to accessibility try to use the Linux terminal with
> graphical accessibility tools with narry a reference to the still
> maintained and actively developed console accessibility tools. That's a
> disconnect in my mind, very possibly one that's cultural for younger
> generations or for newly blinded adults.
> 
> Point of fact is that serious engineers use the terminall all the time.
> That's true on Linux, but it's also true on Apple and Microsoft
> products. Apple doesn't provide the wealth of tooling available from its
> terminal for its customer base. Those tools are there primarily because
> Apple developers and engineers find them invaluable. The same can be
> said for Microsoft. I'm speaking of the majority of engineers who aren't
> needing assistive technology themselves.
> 
> For those of us who do require AT support I think it important to
> provide an accurate and comprehensive picture. AT on the Linux console
> continues to be actively developed. We have the grand old trio, Speakup,
> Brltty, and Emacspeak that remain highly effective and viable. The value
> of the native Linux console environment is only further demonstrated by
> the emergence of new screen reader AT, like Fenrir, that may yet take
> their place with the old stalwarts.
> 
> So, if VO in the Apple terminal floats your boat, I certainly wouldn't
> gainsay your satisfaction with that solution. And, I'm very glad that
> the powerhouse Windows screen readers are finally upgrading their
> terminal support now that Linux on Windows is a meaningful and
> mainstream Microsoft engineering addition. It's also great to see the
> terminal reemerge as a respectable environment in people's eyes. There
> was a long time when those of us who never left the terminal actually
> felt like we were discounted over that preference.
> 
> Janina
> 
> 
> Linux for blind general discussion writes:
>> I agree VoiceOver does require a lot to interact with navigation commands 
>> but the speech output is amazing. Also I only ever use a laptop so I do not 
>> use a num pad with my machine. Another thing I will add in all this is that 
>> we all will be a bit partial or bias toward the OS, screen reader or tools 
>> we use so as long as we keep in mind everything we post is meant to share 
>> our personal opinions it is all useful information. I like to hear how Linux 
>> users do what they do so I hope my perspective on Mac is equally as useful 
>> to someone else. 
>> Bryan Duarte | software engineer
>> 
>> ASU Computer Science Ph.D Student
>> IGERT Fellow
>> Alliance for Person-centered Accessible Technology (APAcT)
>> Center for Cognitive Ubiquitous Computing (CUbiC Lab)
>> National Federation of the Blind of Arizona | Affiliate Board Member
>> National Association of Blind Students | Board Member
>> Arizona Association of Blind Students | President
>> Phone: 480-652-3045
>> 
>>> On Mar 1, 2018, at 3:36 PM, Linux for blind general discussion 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Oh, yes, one can do this with Voice Over, but it's so very, very
>>> cumbersome compared to using Speakup's numeric keypad screen review.
>>> 
>>> I just don't have all day to fuss with VO. Just my experience.
>>> 
>>> Janina
>>> 
>>> Linux for blind general discussion writes:
 -eric,
 
 I honestly do not have any special software 

Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Voiceover can be made to act exactly like speakup using the numpad keys.

On Thu, 1 Mar 2018, Linux for blind general discussion wrote:

> Oh, yes, one can do this with Voice Over, but it's so very, very
> cumbersome compared to using Speakup's numeric keypad screen review.
>
> I just don't have all day to fuss with VO. Just my experience.
>
> Janina
>
> Linux for blind general discussion writes:
> > -eric,
> >
> > I honestly do not have any special software or configerations to interact 
> > with the Unix console. I have noticed that each person who is having issues 
> > with the Mac terminal have in common. Remember Voiceover requires that you 
> > use the VoiceOver keys to navigate the VoiceOver cursor. It is similar to 
> > the flat review in Linux but uses different keys. You have to hold down the 
> > CTRL + CMD keys to move the cursor. In addition to these keys you have to 
> > make sure you are interacting with the terminal window. VoiceOver requires 
> > that you are "interacting" with windows for VoiceOver to read the contents 
> > of that window. To do this you press the Shift key + CTRL + CMD + the down 
> > arrow. In terms of the terminal window you would listen for "Shell" and 
> > perform the interaction command. From this point you would use the 
> > VoiceOver navigation commands to move around the stdout including the man 
> > pages.
> >
> > To interact with the man pages simply execute the man page you are 
> > interested in then use the above commands to read it. Once you have read 
> > the currently displayed page you would press the space bar to bring up the 
> > next section of the man page. You can tell if there is additional pages not 
> > being displayed because at the bottom there will be a : displayed letting 
> > you know there are more pages to show. To exit the man pages you would 
> > simply type the letter q. I typically will execute this command to have 
> > more control of the man docs and can review them later.
> > $ man grep >> grep.txt
> >
> > I am sure you understand what that is doing but in case someone does not it 
> > is basically redirecting the stdout from the man command to a file named 
> > grep.txt. I then will use vim or cat to read the documentation. Hope this 
> > helps
> > Bryan Duarte | software engineer
> >
> > ASU Computer Science Ph.D Student
> > IGERT Fellow
> > Alliance for Person-centered Accessible Technology (APAcT)
> > Center for Cognitive Ubiquitous Computing (CUbiC Lab)
> > National Federation of the Blind of Arizona | Affiliate Board Member
> > National Association of Blind Students | Board Member
> > Arizona Association of Blind Students | President
> > Phone: 480-652-3045
> >
> > > On Feb 28, 2018, at 5:03 PM, Linux for blind general discussion 
> > >  wrote:
> > >
> > > -eric
> >
> > ___
> > Blinux-list mailing list
> > Blinux-list@redhat.com
> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
>
>

-- 
XB

___
Blinux-list mailing list
Blinux-list@redhat.com
https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list

Re: Screen reader advice for a Linux sysadmin

[Linux for blind general discussion]

Bryan:

I want to agree. I would expect that anything one reads here is
someone's opinion. I believe that's a given especially in a nonfactual
discussion where terms like "best" or "works well" are tossed about.

Some of us older curmudgeons on the list, perhaps especially yours
truly, may jump in with some stridancy from time to time, especially
when people new to accessibility try to use the Linux terminal with
graphical accessibility tools with narry a reference to the still
maintained and actively developed console accessibility tools. That's a
disconnect in my mind, very possibly one that's cultural for younger
generations or for newly blinded adults.

Point of fact is that serious engineers use the terminall all the time.
That's true on Linux, but it's also true on Apple and Microsoft
products. Apple doesn't provide the wealth of tooling available from its
terminal for its customer base. Those tools are there primarily because
Apple developers and engineers find them invaluable. The same can be
said for Microsoft. I'm speaking of the majority of engineers who aren't
needing assistive technology themselves.

For those of us who do require AT support I think it important to
provide an accurate and comprehensive picture. AT on the Linux console
continues to be actively developed. We have the grand old trio, Speakup,
Brltty, and Emacspeak that remain highly effective and viable. The value
of the native Linux console environment is only further demonstrated by
the emergence of new screen reader AT, like Fenrir, that may yet take
their place with the old stalwarts.

So, if VO in the Apple terminal floats your boat, I certainly wouldn't
gainsay your satisfaction with that solution. And, I'm very glad that
the powerhouse Windows screen readers are finally upgrading their
terminal support now that Linux on Windows is a meaningful and
mainstream Microsoft engineering addition. It's also great to see the
terminal reemerge as a respectable environment in people's eyes. There
was a long time when those of us who never left the terminal actually
felt like we were discounted over that preference.

Janina


Linux for blind general discussion writes:
> I agree VoiceOver does require a lot to interact with navigation commands but 
> the speech output is amazing. Also I only ever use a laptop so I do not use a 
> num pad with my machine. Another thing I will add in all this is that we all 
> will be a bit partial or bias toward the OS, screen reader or tools we use so 
> as long as we keep in mind everything we post is meant to share our personal 
> opinions it is all useful information. I like to hear how Linux users do what 
> they do so I hope my perspective on Mac is equally as useful to someone else. 
> Bryan Duarte | software engineer
> 
> ASU Computer Science Ph.D Student
> IGERT Fellow
> Alliance for Person-centered Accessible Technology (APAcT)
> Center for Cognitive Ubiquitous Computing (CUbiC Lab)
> National Federation of the Blind of Arizona | Affiliate Board Member
> National Association of Blind Students | Board Member
> Arizona Association of Blind Students | President
> Phone: 480-652-3045
> 
> > On Mar 1, 2018, at 3:36 PM, Linux for blind general discussion 
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > Oh, yes, one can do this with Voice Over, but it's so very, very
> > cumbersome compared to using Speakup's numeric keypad screen review.
> > 
> > I just don't have all day to fuss with VO. Just my experience.
> > 
> > Janina
> > 
> > Linux for blind general discussion writes:
> >> -eric,
> >> 
> >> I honestly do not have any special software or configerations to interact 
> >> with the Unix console. I have noticed that each person who is having 
> >> issues with the Mac terminal have in common. Remember Voiceover requires 
> >> that you use the VoiceOver keys to navigate the VoiceOver cursor. It is 
> >> similar to the flat review in Linux but uses different keys. You have to 
> >> hold down the CTRL + CMD keys to move the cursor. In addition to these 
> >> keys you have to make sure you are interacting with the terminal window. 
> >> VoiceOver requires that you are "interacting" with windows for VoiceOver 
> >> to read the contents of that window. To do this you press the Shift key + 
> >> CTRL + CMD + the down arrow. In terms of the terminal window you would 
> >> listen for "Shell" and perform the interaction command. From this point 
> >> you would use the VoiceOver navigation commands to move around the stdout 
> >> including the man pages. 
> >> 
> >> To interact with the man pages simply execute the man page you are 
> >> interested in then use the above commands to read it. Once you have read 
> >> the currently displayed page you would press the space bar to bring up the 
> >> next section of the man page. You can tell if there is additional pages 
> >> not being displayed because at the bottom there will be a : displayed 
> >> letting you know there are more pages to show. To exit the man