[Bloat] anyone out there using peplink?
I knew they had added fq-codel to some beta firmware a while back, but apparently it's not widely distributed. I like that firewalla just entered their market, but peplink's dual wan and other features have long been pretty impressive. https://forum.peplink.com/t/comcast-rolls-out-their-aqm-technology-for-bufferbloat-low-latency/61b14ffa7973e50352d4ccae/1 -- I tried to build a better future, a few times: https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC ___ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
Re: [Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel] tp-link request for SQM
On Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 19:23 Sebastian Moeller wrote: > Hi Luca, > > > > On Dec 9, 2021, at 18:38, Luca Muscariello wrote: > > > > Hi Sebastian > > > > On Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 17:09 Sebastian Moeller wrote: > > Hi Luca > > > > > On Dec 3, 2021, at 15:58, Luca Muscariello > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 3:35 PM Sebastian Moeller > wrote: > > > Hi Dave, > > > > > > > > > > On Dec 3, 2021, at 15:18, Dave Taht wrote: > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 4:00 AM Luca Muscariello < > muscarie...@ieee.org> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> Test using a tp-link AP EAP 245 > > > >> > > > >> > https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=bbcc5ef5-e677-4f27-aa04-1849db81d0f5 > > > > > > > > Nice. > > > > > > > > A kvetch is that I really wish they also tested up and down at the > same time. > > > > > > > > Another kvetch is I think the test needs to run longer at these > speeds. > > > > > > > > Another another kvetch is they factor in baseline latency to > determine > > > > if the link is suitable for gaming or not. > > > > > > Which is the sane thing to do... IMHO. For any "twitch"-type > reation-time gated gaming all players need to be in an acceptable range of > "RTTs" to and from the server so that all perceive the world similarly and > nobody has an unfair advantage/disadvantage, so absolute RTT does seem to > matter. I would agree that jitter is nastier in that is will cause > "randomish" variations of the RTT, but then the known solution against > jitter is additional buffering (large enough to simply even out the unequal > jittered packet arrival times) which in turn just increases the "RTT", no? > (I guess no game really does this enough, so jitter stays the constant > problem for internet game-play). > > > > > > > > > > Mobile multiplayer competitive games, like PvP, 5v5 such as CoDM, > Critical Ops, LoL Wild Rift may have very different ways to face/conceal > network conditions based on the experience the studio wants to offer to the > gamer. > > > > Care to elaborate, please? As far as I can tell what I describe > above is pretty universal iff fair "coordination" between different > player's actions is required. How do you conceal issues about causal > ordering of events that ideally are identical from all perspectives? > > > > Not all games use deterministic lockstep because it requires to > compensate latency from the different players. Of course if latency is zero > it is easier. But that assumption or that objective is one of the fallacies > of distributed computing. > > > > Predictive lockstep or even rollback netcode are examples where you fix > update accuracy reactively. > > Ah, sure, I was talking core principle not implementation. I fully > agree that predictive/speculative techniques help to make the causality > problems of different information propagation delays appear less often. In > retrospect that is what "conceal network conditions" alstready covered ;) > > > > Beyond specific netcode techniques, some mobile games can give you the > illusion that you're playing PvP while at some point reality is that you > can continue to play almost offline against bots. > > I don't want to sound harsh, but that feels like "cheating". > That's what I was referring to when I wrote that the game studio works on the experience they want to provide. If the game is a competitive game with esport competitions where accuracy is crucial that has implications on the way the netcode is written. If the studio is looking for gamer retention it's important the gamer with little experience is able to learn, get more skilled and have fun along the way before they get to the competitive level. BTW, it is not cheating. It is fishing in some sense. > > > > There are games where physics inaccuracies can be concealed. Physics is > very important for first person shooter games while an ARPG may conceal > inaccuracies in the middle of the mess that is rendered on screen, think of > League of Legends Wild Rift. > > Ah, okay. Didn't know at all about the last two ;) > > Thanks! > > Regards > Sebastan > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > Sebastian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We had them participating on this list at some point > > > > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 7:48 PM Dave Taht > wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>> tp-link, is, so far as I know, the last major home router vendor > NOT > > > >>> shipping a SQM system. Perhaps this could be modded up with > someones > > > >>> with accounts? > > > >>> > > > >>> https://community.tp-link.com/us/home/forum/topic/511156 > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> -- > > > >>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > > >>> https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > > > >>> > > > >>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > > >>> ___ > > > >>> Bloat mailing list > > > >>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > >>>
Re: [Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel] tp-link request for SQM
Hi Luca, > On Dec 9, 2021, at 18:38, Luca Muscariello wrote: > > Hi Sebastian > > On Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 17:09 Sebastian Moeller wrote: > Hi Luca > > > On Dec 3, 2021, at 15:58, Luca Muscariello wrote: > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 3:35 PM Sebastian Moeller wrote: > > Hi Dave, > > > > > > > On Dec 3, 2021, at 15:18, Dave Taht wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 4:00 AM Luca Muscariello > > > wrote: > > >> > > >> Test using a tp-link AP EAP 245 > > >> > > >> https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=bbcc5ef5-e677-4f27-aa04-1849db81d0f5 > > > > > > Nice. > > > > > > A kvetch is that I really wish they also tested up and down at the same > > > time. > > > > > > Another kvetch is I think the test needs to run longer at these speeds. > > > > > > Another another kvetch is they factor in baseline latency to determine > > > if the link is suitable for gaming or not. > > > > Which is the sane thing to do... IMHO. For any "twitch"-type > > reation-time gated gaming all players need to be in an acceptable range of > > "RTTs" to and from the server so that all perceive the world similarly and > > nobody has an unfair advantage/disadvantage, so absolute RTT does seem to > > matter. I would agree that jitter is nastier in that is will cause > > "randomish" variations of the RTT, but then the known solution against > > jitter is additional buffering (large enough to simply even out the unequal > > jittered packet arrival times) which in turn just increases the "RTT", no? > > (I guess no game really does this enough, so jitter stays the constant > > problem for internet game-play). > > > > > > > Mobile multiplayer competitive games, like PvP, 5v5 such as CoDM, Critical > > Ops, LoL Wild Rift may have very different ways to face/conceal network > > conditions based on the experience the studio wants to offer to the gamer. > > Care to elaborate, please? As far as I can tell what I describe above > is pretty universal iff fair "coordination" between different player's > actions is required. How do you conceal issues about causal ordering of > events that ideally are identical from all perspectives? > > Not all games use deterministic lockstep because it requires to compensate > latency from the different players. Of course if latency is zero it is > easier. But that assumption or that objective is one of the fallacies of > distributed computing. > > Predictive lockstep or even rollback netcode are examples where you fix > update accuracy reactively. Ah, sure, I was talking core principle not implementation. I fully agree that predictive/speculative techniques help to make the causality problems of different information propagation delays appear less often. In retrospect that is what "conceal network conditions" alstready covered ;) > Beyond specific netcode techniques, some mobile games can give you the > illusion that you're playing PvP while at some point reality is that you can > continue to play almost offline against bots. I don't want to sound harsh, but that feels like "cheating". > > There are games where physics inaccuracies can be concealed. Physics is very > important for first person shooter games while an ARPG may conceal > inaccuracies in the middle of the mess that is rendered on screen, think of > League of Legends Wild Rift. Ah, okay. Didn't know at all about the last two ;) Thanks! Regards Sebastan > > > > Regards > Sebastian > > > > > > > > > > > We had them participating on this list at some point > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 7:48 PM Dave Taht wrote: > > >>> > > >>> tp-link, is, so far as I know, the last major home router vendor NOT > > >>> shipping a SQM system. Perhaps this could be modded up with someones > > >>> with accounts? > > >>> > > >>> https://community.tp-link.com/us/home/forum/topic/511156 > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > >>> https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > > >>> > > >>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > >>> ___ > > >>> Bloat mailing list > > >>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > > >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > > > > > > Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > > ___ > > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > > cerowrt-de...@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ___ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
Re: [Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel] tp-link request for SQM
Hi Sebastian On Thu, Dec 9, 2021, 17:09 Sebastian Moeller wrote: > Hi Luca > > > On Dec 3, 2021, at 15:58, Luca Muscariello wrote: > > > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 3:35 PM Sebastian Moeller > wrote: > > Hi Dave, > > > > > > > On Dec 3, 2021, at 15:18, Dave Taht wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 4:00 AM Luca Muscariello > wrote: > > >> > > >> Test using a tp-link AP EAP 245 > > >> > > >> > https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=bbcc5ef5-e677-4f27-aa04-1849db81d0f5 > > > > > > Nice. > > > > > > A kvetch is that I really wish they also tested up and down at the > same time. > > > > > > Another kvetch is I think the test needs to run longer at these speeds. > > > > > > Another another kvetch is they factor in baseline latency to determine > > > if the link is suitable for gaming or not. > > > > Which is the sane thing to do... IMHO. For any "twitch"-type > reation-time gated gaming all players need to be in an acceptable range of > "RTTs" to and from the server so that all perceive the world similarly and > nobody has an unfair advantage/disadvantage, so absolute RTT does seem to > matter. I would agree that jitter is nastier in that is will cause > "randomish" variations of the RTT, but then the known solution against > jitter is additional buffering (large enough to simply even out the unequal > jittered packet arrival times) which in turn just increases the "RTT", no? > (I guess no game really does this enough, so jitter stays the constant > problem for internet game-play). > > > > > > > Mobile multiplayer competitive games, like PvP, 5v5 such as CoDM, > Critical Ops, LoL Wild Rift may have very different ways to face/conceal > network conditions based on the experience the studio wants to offer to the > gamer. > > Care to elaborate, please? As far as I can tell what I describe > above is pretty universal iff fair "coordination" between different > player's actions is required. How do you conceal issues about causal > ordering of events that ideally are identical from all perspectives? Not all games use deterministic lockstep because it requires to compensate latency from the different players. Of course if latency is zero it is easier. But that assumption or that objective is one of the fallacies of distributed computing. Predictive lockstep or even rollback netcode are examples where you fix update accuracy reactively. Beyond specific netcode techniques, some mobile games can give you the illusion that you're playing PvP while at some point reality is that you can continue to play almost offline against bots. There are games where physics inaccuracies can be concealed. Physics is very important for first person shooter games while an ARPG may conceal inaccuracies in the middle of the mess that is rendered on screen, think of League of Legends Wild Rift. > > Regards > Sebastian > > > > > > > > > > > We had them participating on this list at some point > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 7:48 PM Dave Taht wrote: > > >>> > > >>> tp-link, is, so far as I know, the last major home router vendor NOT > > >>> shipping a SQM system. Perhaps this could be modded up with someones > > >>> with accounts? > > >>> > > >>> https://community.tp-link.com/us/home/forum/topic/511156 > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> -- > > >>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > >>> https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > > >>> > > >>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > >>> ___ > > >>> Bloat mailing list > > >>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > > >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > > > > > > Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > > ___ > > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > > cerowrt-de...@lists.bufferbloat.net > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel > > ___ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
Re: [Bloat] [Cerowrt-devel] tp-link request for SQM
Hi Luca > On Dec 3, 2021, at 15:58, Luca Muscariello wrote: > > > > On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 3:35 PM Sebastian Moeller wrote: > Hi Dave, > > > > On Dec 3, 2021, at 15:18, Dave Taht wrote: > > > > On Fri, Dec 3, 2021 at 4:00 AM Luca Muscariello > > wrote: > >> > >> Test using a tp-link AP EAP 245 > >> > >> https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=bbcc5ef5-e677-4f27-aa04-1849db81d0f5 > > > > Nice. > > > > A kvetch is that I really wish they also tested up and down at the same > > time. > > > > Another kvetch is I think the test needs to run longer at these speeds. > > > > Another another kvetch is they factor in baseline latency to determine > > if the link is suitable for gaming or not. > > Which is the sane thing to do... IMHO. For any "twitch"-type > reation-time gated gaming all players need to be in an acceptable range of > "RTTs" to and from the server so that all perceive the world similarly and > nobody has an unfair advantage/disadvantage, so absolute RTT does seem to > matter. I would agree that jitter is nastier in that is will cause > "randomish" variations of the RTT, but then the known solution against jitter > is additional buffering (large enough to simply even out the unequal jittered > packet arrival times) which in turn just increases the "RTT", no? (I guess no > game really does this enough, so jitter stays the constant problem for > internet game-play). > > > > Mobile multiplayer competitive games, like PvP, 5v5 such as CoDM, Critical > Ops, LoL Wild Rift may have very different ways to face/conceal network > conditions based on the experience the studio wants to offer to the gamer. Care to elaborate, please? As far as I can tell what I describe above is pretty universal iff fair "coordination" between different player's actions is required. How do you conceal issues about causal ordering of events that ideally are identical from all perspectives? Regards Sebastian > > > > > We had them participating on this list at some point > > > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 7:48 PM Dave Taht wrote: > >>> > >>> tp-link, is, so far as I know, the last major home router vendor NOT > >>> shipping a SQM system. Perhaps this could be modded up with someones > >>> with accounts? > >>> > >>> https://community.tp-link.com/us/home/forum/topic/511156 > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> I tried to build a better future, a few times: > >>> https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > >>> > >>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > >>> ___ > >>> Bloat mailing list > >>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > > > > > > > > -- > > I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > > > > Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > ___ > > Cerowrt-devel mailing list > > cerowrt-de...@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/cerowrt-devel ___ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
Re: [Bloat] [Network-quality-workshop] dec 22: mikrotik talk about fq-codel and cake in russian
I used to run Microtik with OpenVPN for many years. Nice cost-effective home router hardware. Aren't the microtik also standard fare for our IETF hackathon VPN now ? not sure whether its MicroTik SW or OpenWRT though ... Some implementation survey draft would be nice. Could hang around for a few years before published as RFC, getting updated with new implementations we discover along the way. should be the most IETF'is way to track process in the industry. Doesn't have to be long! CHeers Toerless On Wed, Dec 08, 2021 at 03:44:27PM -0800, Greg Mirsky wrote: > Hi Dave, > I might be able to help with the interpretation. Is there anything in > particular you're interested in? > BTW, the company is from Latvia , my old country. > > Regards, > Greg > > On Wed, Dec 8, 2021, 12:41 Dave Taht wrote: > > > see https://mikrotik.team/ for signup details. > > > > The talk title is... very russian. I'm not sure if if google > > translate's translation is suitable for a family oriented mailing > > list, or is correct. > > > > Anyway, if there's a russian speaker out there that can kibitz?, I do > > worry about how our algorithms fare in translation, and i'm very > > pleased to see fq-codel and cake make the mikrotik 7.0 release. > > > > -- > > I tried to build a better future, a few times: > > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > > > > Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > > > -- > > Network-quality-workshop mailing list > > network-quality-works...@iab.org > > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/network-quality-workshop > > > -- > Network-quality-workshop mailing list > network-quality-works...@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/network-quality-workshop -- --- t...@cs.fau.de ___ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
Re: [Bloat] [Network-quality-workshop] dec 22: mikrotik talk about fq-codel and cake in russian
Hi Dave, I might be able to help with the interpretation. Is there anything in particular you're interested in? BTW, the company is from Latvia , my old country. Regards, Greg On Wed, Dec 8, 2021, 12:41 Dave Taht wrote: > see https://mikrotik.team/ for signup details. > > The talk title is... very russian. I'm not sure if if google > translate's translation is suitable for a family oriented mailing > list, or is correct. > > Anyway, if there's a russian speaker out there that can kibitz?, I do > worry about how our algorithms fare in translation, and i'm very > pleased to see fq-codel and cake make the mikrotik 7.0 release. > > -- > I tried to build a better future, a few times: > https://wayforward.archive.org/?site=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.icei.org > > Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > -- > Network-quality-workshop mailing list > network-quality-works...@iab.org > https://www.iab.org/mailman/listinfo/network-quality-workshop > ___ Bloat mailing list Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
