RE: Stirling engine queries
I wrote However, a base 12 counting system would have been much better ... and Bryon Daly [EMAIL PROTECTED] asked Why base 12? Why not base 16, and then we'd at least benefit from easy conversion to/from binary? Because base 12 can be divided by both 2 and 3 (and by 4 and 6) but base 16 can be divided only by 2 (and by 4 and 8). For non-programming purposes, 12 is a much better base than 16. People frequently divide things in half, thirds, and quarters. Hence the value of base 12. Base 10 is worse. You have to move to 100s to get a `quarter', such as 25 cents -- indeed, base 10 is even more limited than base 16. It would be much nicer for a `quarter' to be 0.3, which it is in base 12, and a `third' to be 0.4; they are nice round numbers (albeit round number fractions). (It goes without saying that some children would be confused that a third is 0.4 and a quarter is 0.3; understanding and remembering the difference would be one of rites of schooldom.) For programmers, base 16 is excellent; but programmers are both recent in history and a small minority of people. Also, if you look at the tips of your fingers and those knuckles closest to the tips, you will see 12 of them on one hand -- so it is easy to count on your fingers. While programmers never count on their fingers, over the past millennia, many other people have. (Indeed, I have heard it claimed that societies in which children are first taught to count on their fingers end up having more technically competent adults who do not count on their fingers. I don't whether this is true.) -- Robert J. Chassell Rattlesnake Enterprises http://www.rattlesnake.com GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.teak.cc [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Race to the Bottom
On Wed, Mar 03, 2004 at 09:35:55AM -0600, Dan Minette wrote: From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] average unemployment rate years % == 2001-2004 5.3 1997-2000 4.5 1993-1996 6.3 1989-1992 6.1 1985-1988 6.6 1981-1984 8.6 1977-1980 6.5 1973-1976 6.5 1969-1972 4.7 1965-1968 4.1 1961-1964 5.9 The last time there was a significant period with unemployment below the natural rate of 5%, it was the late 60's/early 70's, which was a big boom time. Which was followed by a big bust, with over a million jobs lost and a period of lower employment. I don't see where you got this. I made a couple assumptions and calculated assuming unemployment went from 4.7% to 6.5%. If unemployment went up because more than a million people out of the uncounted entered the job market looking for work net of those who left the market, then my conclusion may be wrong. Let me quote my statistics for those years jobs yearx1000 1968 66805 1969 69438 1970 71176 1971 70866 1972 72445 1973 75620 1974 78104 1975 77297 1976 78506 1977 80692 1978 84595 1979 88811 1980 90800 Over no two year period is there a job loss. Betwen jan 1974 and jan 1975, about 800 thousand jobs were lost, but in between 75 76, about 1.5 million were gained. So these data say my 1M estimate was too high, and should have been 800K. Let us look at the recent years: 2000 130730 2001 132388 2002 130494 2003 130190 2004 130155 All numbers are January numbers BTW, that's why 2001 looks so good. We see about 1.9 million jobs ere lost between jan 2001 and jan 2002, another 300 thousand between '02 and '03, and another 35 thousand between '03 and '04. This is unprecidented. If you leave out the spike in 2001, then your conclusion looks a lot different -- less than 600K jobs lost. I don't mean to dispute your suggestion of looking at the employment vs. unemployment numbers, I actually think that is a good idea. Perhaps we have both been too cavalier with drawing conclusions from the limited data set we were looking at. I don't really like looking at numbers that show monthly changes, since the data looks so noisy, but that seems to be what is most readily available. I'm looking around for more data myself, and I'll have more to discuss later, probably this weekend. If I can't find smoother data, I'll do some averaging myself and make some graphs on my web page for discussion. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: This Is Spinal Ta-, er, Metallica
From: Travis Edmunds [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] boring). You want a good guitarist, with good mechanics, that's not flashy/trashy, and just may have an exceptional ear? Mark Knopfler. How about Nils Lofgren? From what I've heard he's the guitarists pick for best guitarist. He's been around forever but has never completely gotten his due from the general public. - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bases, was Re: Stirling engine queries
Well, a little better. Depending how you count, you can argue that 12 has more factors than 10. This must be worth something, since I don't hear anyone pushing for prime bases such as 11. Agreed, it's not a big deal. It might be more to make a number base feel comfortable than a great aid in calculations. Base 10 has a minor advantage in divisibility tests that I don't think you get with any other possible base between 5 and 17. And unlike 5 and 17, it's not prime. Julia There are two kinds of divisibility tests. They aren't usually given names, but let's call them ending tests and sum of digits tests. Working base 10, there are ending tests for 2,4,8,... and 5,25,... as well as for their products. (Let's ignore combined tests for products such as 6, since those can always be created.) In base 10, there are nice sum of digits tests for 3 and 9, and a poor one for 11. (There's a really messy one for divisibility by 7 as well, illustrating that it is always possible to produce a poor test.) The tests for 3 and 9 are based on the fact that 10 = 9 + 1, and the test for 11 uses that 100 = 9*11 + 1. So base 12 is not bad, it gives nice tests for 2,4,8,... for 3,9,..., for 11 since 12 = 11 + 1 and it gives a poor test for 13 since 12^2 = 11*13 + 1. The situation for 5 and for 7 seems to be even worse. Contrast this with base 10, which gives a good test for 5 but has a worse test for 11 and none for 13. I'd say that this stuff gets pretty fuzzy. One could argue that 5 is more important than 11 and 13. On the other hand, one could say that ending tests are better than sum of digits tests, and conclude that 12 is superior since it replaces sum of digits tests for 3,9,... with ending tests. Is this the kind of thing you were thinking about? ---David ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Haiku
From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Haiku Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 17:39:52 -0600 - Original Message - From: Travis Edmunds [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 3:36 PM Subject: RE: Haiku xponent No Seasons Maru rob HAHA!!! Did you write that? Yes sir! Did you like it? xponent What I Do For Fun Maru rob That was great!! Had me laughing pretty hard. -Travis _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Haiku
From: Robert Seeberger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] SNIP This needs to be submitted to rec.humor.funny or something. These are great! I'm so totally going to steal them... grin - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Haiku
I cant reply to this.. 'cause no one likes me L Nick no likes me Lidster - Original Message - From: Travis Edmunds [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 10:32 AM Subject: Re: Haiku From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Haiku Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 17:39:52 -0600 - Original Message - From: Travis Edmunds [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2004 3:36 PM Subject: RE: Haiku xponent No Seasons Maru rob HAHA!!! Did you write that? Yes sir! Did you like it? xponent What I Do For Fun Maru rob That was great!! Had me laughing pretty hard. -Travis _ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Stirling engine queries
Also, if you look at the tips of your fingers and those knuckles closest to the tips, you will see 12 of them on one hand -- so it is Robert J. Chassell Rattlesnake Enterprises http://www.rattlesnake.com GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.teak.cc [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l yeh im probley stupid or forgot how to count.. but can someone please count to 12 using the tips and top knuckels of one hand, 'cause i only get 10. I can see how one can do it, exclude teh thumb and the base knuckles, use the tips and the top 2 knuckles of each finger, again rembering to exclude the thumb. So as far as my base 10 counting skills go, it is impossible to get 12 using 5 fingers, and 2 points of refrence. Nick I cant count Lidster ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Bitter Mellons, Gin and Tonic, and a an Un- reasonable view.
As far as I know, Gautam's and Dan's discussions of the US Civil War are correct: * The Fugitive Slave Act was an imposition on states' rights. It meant a change from the previous, more or less `live and let live' tolerance policy to a Federally imposed `you will help us kidnap your residents' policy. * Poor Southern whites -- most of the Confederacy's soldiers -- were fighting to maintain their respect, which meant fighting to maintain slavery. The South was more a shame/honor society than the North, which as more an actions/guilt society. Southerners maintained their social position by comparing themselves to other people, such as slaves, and felt a loss of honor and shame when the people previously below them socially gained honor. Northerners, on the other hand, felt guilty when they did not succeed. Success might only mean becoming an independent farmer, but that was often enough. As Robert Seeberger pointed out, these statements are just generalities. Not all Southerners fitted them, just as not all Northerners fitted theirs. But as a first approximation, as far as I know, they are correct. It goes without saying that to avoid being misled it is necessary to go further. Gautam Mukunda wrote How could the South have won? How about no major offensive operations, force the North into a grinding war of attrition and denying it any major victories while either getting European intervention (which almost happened) or a Democratic victory in 1864 (which _also_ almost happened, The South should have followed George Washington. In the colonies' war for independence from Great Britain, he adopted a strategy to `wait them out' and to gain European allies. Washington's strategy succeeded. As far as I can see, the guerilla war against the US in Iraq is based on the same strategy. Gautam Mukunda wrote Eli Whitney's invention of the cotton gin made slavery profitable once again In a sense, you could say that the American Civil War was a product of technological change ... This is definitely true. Without the cotton gin, slavery would have vanished. I have often wished that automated flax weaving had been developed earlier. Then slavery would not have been profitable. Unfortunately for linen, I have read that automated linen weaving requires metal looms, which were first developed in the 1820s, rather than wood looms, which were developed a half century earlier. Is this true? The cotton gin became well known 1790s, shortly after the US Constitution was negotiated. It enabled factories that used existing weaving technology to produce inexpensive cotton goods. Also, I have heard it said that cotton clothing is more comfortable than linen clothing, presuming the proper fineness for both. But the use of `linens' for underwear contradicts this claim. Does someone know? Is this the kind of knowledge that crafts people and members of the SCA maintain? Does any one know off hand the prices, by decade, for equivalent cotton and linen clothes through out the 19th century? My vague memory is that cotton clothes became and stayed cheaper than linen clothes, which was the reverse of previous centuries. As for the point that the Northern government did too little to help the former slaves after the Civil War: I think that is true. The famous phrase is that the Northern government was going to give former slaves `40 acres and a mule'. On the one hand, it may have been impossible for the North to provide mules, on account there not being enough of them (I don't know). Does any one know how many mules there were and what the demand might have been, both for mules and for whatever else former slave settlers would have needed? On the other hand, however, the Union government could have given each work group or family 120 acres round about the 100th line of longitude (i.e., at the approximate western end of the range in which non-irrigated agriculture is possible using 1860s technology). I fear that white northern farmers prevented this action, because they feared that former slaves would out compete them. Side query: I remember that Aristotle wrote that he favored slavery, until the shuttle could weave by itself'. However, I have not been able to find the reference, although I have searched through a good number of (English-language) books. Does anyone know the reference? (As for the technological change question: Aristotle never thought of the cotton gin. I suspect he was thinking of wool and flax. Also, quite possibly, he did not ever expect automated textile machinery; that machinery was not invented for two millenia after Aristotle's death.) -- Robert J. Chassell Rattlesnake Enterprises http://www.rattlesnake.com GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.teak.cc [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: L3 Bitter Mellons, Gin and Tonic, and a an Un- reasonable view.
Gautam Mukunda asks ... was Southern defeat inevitable? I would actually say, in retrospect, that it's actually fairly improbable. This is a nice question. The early 1860s were the first period in which the North had the economic power to fund a civil war and win. But it just barely had that ability. Yes, it was important, as Gautam points out, that Lincoln was a poor farmer's son. So was Grant. The two most important figures in the Union war effort were up from poverty types. The North benefited from the greater supply of talent its action/guilt society provided than the South for which Gautam cannot ..think of a single high officer ... who wasn't a part of the planter aristocracy. However, it was equally important that the North be able to afford the war. Before 1860, the South was the richer part of the US. After 1860, the North. This is because Northern manufacturing grew so much. Nearly every successfully developing country goes through a fast growth stage that lasts a generation or two. China is the current example. Japan was earlier. The US was even earlier. Its fast manufacturing growth stage took place in the middle 19th century, and primarily in the North. By 1860, the US had been going through its `double manufacturing output every 7 years' period for 15 or 20 years. (Maybe longer, but if I remember correctly, the period of 10% per year manufacturing growth started in 1840 - 1845; does someone know the figures better?) (The only successful country that did not go through a fast growth stage was Britain, the first country to develop economically in the modern manner. Generation by generation, Great Britain maintained a 1.7% or 1.8% per year growth rate from the latter third of the eighteenth century to the latter third of the twentieth century, except for a generation lost on account of WWI. I don't know Britain's growth rate since I looked, which would have been in the late 1960s or 70s. Does anyone know of long run British figures brought up to date and more likely to be accurate? Is my thesis reasonable? As for an explanation: Britain did not grow faster because people first had to invent the technologies; and then investors had to discover which were profitable.) Back to the US: suppose Lincoln had not been elected President in 1860 and suppose there had been no civil war and no succession. Would the North have become so much more successful economically in another 15 or 20 years and the South so weak, that slavery became irrelevant? This would be a argument that Lincoln should never have become President. Or were the early 1860s the last time the Southern leadership could see themselves as having a chance? Were they much like the leaders of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in 1914, who, as far as I know, decided `better to fight now, which a chance of victory, that face sure defeat in the future' (on account both their ally Germany and their enemy Russia were advancing ahead of them)? If the latter, not only would such thinking explain why the South decided to face Lincoln in war, but tell us that Lincoln was relevant. What does anyone know? -- Robert J. Chassell Rattlesnake Enterprises http://www.rattlesnake.com GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.teak.cc [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Race to the Bottom
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], ritu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 'Tis just that I can't see *how* India is supposed to be blamed for this and thus, I will ask when someone says that in front of me. The logic is that americans workers tax dollors, hard work building american corporations, and the political environemnt in which those corporations were able to exist, have payed for job expansion in India, therefore the Indian people owe the american worker compensation back. If a theif comes and steals your car and gives it to me, when all is discovered I would have to give the car back. Now, If I knew the car was stolen, and I sell it's parts, then I would be a criminal. You have to understand that what is going on right now is fostering a very negative emotional respons. I am not justifying that emotional response, only pointing it out, and asking what should be done about it. From the out of work american's perspective Indea is steeling our Jobs, and they know it. I have heard representatives from Indean companies say and I quoate, I can hve 200 developers on this toomarow for the price of one of your workers here. You can get rid yourself of these expensive development staff emediatly. How can we not hear this and not get angry and feel like we are being robbed? You see, it's not just about rational logic, it's also about irational logic, the kind that fosters the justification of raceism and nationalism. The kind that can create an environment ripe with anger and dispare. Americans, are a ficle people, you see one face now, the one giving, but you might have to deal with the other face eventualy, then one that has had their way of life taken away. What is going on right now is drasticaly shifting the political opinions of those being affected. Outside of work, in the bars and in the resturants, there is also raceism growing. Consider that it takes many CS majors 5 years (not 4) to get a BS. That is not 5 years of frat parties and spring breaks, it's 5 years of very intense long hours which are physicaly demenishing. Nearly very CS course I took ended with less than 10% of the students who started, and not all at the end passed. Meanwhile the buisnes majors drank and caroused and didn't have to work on projects over spring break. They took easy courses which allowed them time to go to the gym and party every night. Many of these so-clled students were the same ones droping out of CS classes. Now they have conspired with Indea to rob the American Computer Scientist of all their hard work, all the Software Companies we built with 16 hour days while others were working 8, all of the life postponements and dedication, and now, Indea and some frat-boy fat cats come and steel it, say thank you very much for the tax breaks, thank you vey much for doing all the hard work, thank you very much for putting your lives on hold, but we are now going to take that and give you nothing in return. Do you see, we are breading classism...but then I guess that is nothing to Indea, where classism is common place. Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe this will all pass, but right now, I m hearing strong raceism from those who use to be liberal, I'm being told not to bring my indian friends along, I am seeing fewer tables with Indeans and Americans eating together, Indean resturants that are empty of all but Indean patrons. I'm hearing reports of Indean kids getting beat up by other American kids who's parent are out of work. It's getting starting to get ugly. Am I angry? well, yes, but I still have a job. Do I think this raceism is right? No. Do I think that the Indean people owe the american worker, ...the guy telling my boss she can fire me and all my associates and replace us with some Indean sweat shop, yes, he owes the american worker, but the average Indean, No. Am I going to vote Republican in the next election. Hardly. I tensions rose between Indea and Pakistan would I be infavor of helping indea out. Doubt it. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Stirling engine queries
I think it was the babylonians who first used base 60, which is how we got hours, minutes and seconds, as well as the 360 points on a compass. Its worked pretty well so far. I found this on a web site as a possible reason for base 60. Here is one way that it could have happened. One can count up to 60 using your two hands. On your left hand there are three parts on each of four fingers (excluding the thumb). The parts are divided from each other by the joints in the fingers. Now one can count up to 60 by pointing at one of the twelve parts of the fingers of the left hand with one of the five fingers of the right hand. This gives a way of finger counting up to 60 rather than to 10. Anyone convinced? Nerd From Hell -Original Message- From: Nick Lidster [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 7:15 AM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: Stirling engine queries Also, if you look at the tips of your fingers and those knuckles closest to the tips, you will see 12 of them on one hand -- so it is Robert J. Chassell Rattlesnake Enterprises http://www.rattlesnake.com GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.teak.cc [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l yeh im probley stupid or forgot how to count.. but can someone please count to 12 using the tips and top knuckels of one hand, 'cause i only get 10. I can see how one can do it, exclude teh thumb and the base knuckles, use the tips and the top 2 knuckles of each finger, again rembering to exclude the thumb. So as far as my base 10 counting skills go, it is impossible to get 12 using 5 fingers, and 2 points of refrence. Nick I cant count Lidster ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bases, was Re: Stirling engine queries
David Hobby wrote: However, a base 12 counting system would have been much better; No, it wouldn't Well, a little better. A little worse. Depending how you count, you can argue that 12 has more factors than 10. This must be worth something, since I don't hear anyone pushing for prime bases such as 11. Agreed, it's not a big deal. It might be more to make a number base feel comfortable than a great aid in calculations. The problem with base 12 is that it has _2_ twice and _3_ once when you factor it, so that the practical man rules to check if a number is divisible by another would get a higher degree of confusion. Base 6 would be a much better choice than base 12. I don't see many advantages in base 6 over base 10: the only one that comes to my mind is that base 10 has simple rules to check if a number is divisible by 2, 5, 3, 9 and 11; with base 6, there would be simple rules for 2, 3, 5 and 7; maybe losing 11 and gaining 7 could count as a minor improvement. OTOH, base 12 would have simple rules for 2, 3, 4, 6, 11 and 13, and since the base-10 rules for 4 and 6 are one bit less simple than the rules for 4 and 6 in base-12, we would _lose_ the rules for 5 and gain the rules for 13 - which is a bad trade. Alberto Monteiro who spends his time in the traffic looking at the numbers of the cars and dividing them by 11. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Bitter Mellons, Gin and Tonic, and a an Un- reasonable view.
On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 11:10:04AM -0500, Robert J. Chassell wrote: Does anyone know of long run British figures brought up to date and more likely to be accurate? Is my thesis reasonable? As for an explanation: Britain did not grow faster because people first had to invent the technologies; and then investors had to discover which were profitable.) Interesting discussion and some graphs with answers to your question: http://www.efficientfrontier.com/ef/902/gmm.htm *** Angus Maddison, link below, gives the average annual compound real GDP growth rate for the U.K. as: 1500-1820 0.8% 1820-1870 2.05% 1870-1913 1.90% 1913-1950 1.19% 1950-1973 2.93% 1973-1998 2.00% http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/articles_of_the_month/maddison-millennial.html (see link to full article at bottom; if you have trouble viewing it, do save link as... and save it as a PDF file) *** For world stock and bond data for the 20th century, see _Triumph of the Optimists_, by Dimson, Marsh, and Staunton. For example, the real return on equities in the UK was: 1900 1.8% 10 0.2 20 3.1 30 3.0 40 3.0 50 4.7 60 5.0 70 4.2 80 5.4 90 5.8 *** And there is a great reference for these sorts of questions, and many others, coming out very soon: _The Birth of Plenty_ by William J. Bernstein, due out in April. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Race to the Bottom
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -Original Message- From: Jan Coffey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 5:52 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: Race to the Bottom --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Kevin Tarr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 11:36 AM 3/2/2004, you wrote: Half of our development staff is Indian. I turn to them to tell me the technology can do what I want it to do. They are the subject matter experts to programming. The American developers are OK, but the Indians really get it, and they really enjoy the work. They are also the most friendly. The American developers here are probably the most unsocial people in IT. They have not make the transcendental shift to socially connect to the business that supports their lifestyle. It is these people that complain that wages are diminishing, that there is too much foreign competition, and how everyone outside of their little world are idiots who don't get technology. I have news for them. The Ivory Tower they live in is falling. Nerd From Hell I would say that you don't get it. I have had a number of experiences with outsourcing and all of them have been the same. Let me clarify my position on Indian programmers. I was referring to the Indian programmers here on staff. Some of the friendliest guys here - Always say hi to me in the elevator. They love to do analysis. They would not be here if they could not compete head to head against U.S. programmers. In India, being paid to be a programmer is easy do to, but everyone needs to do the time to learn the ropes, here or abroad. Let me tell you, Programmers anywhere, of all nationalities and all races, have allways for me been a joy to work with. They are the best people in the world. I have many Indean friends at work, and in my personal life. My best friend is Indean. However, there is deffinatly a differnce between those who are hear to become Americans, and those who are not. I don't care if your here from Greate Briton, Ireland, Austrailia, Africa, Indea China, Indonisia, Malaysia (where my wife is from)or wherever, if you are hear to -- become an American-- then your welcome in my book. You know what though, The Indeans that are hear , are just as upset about the outsourcing as anyone, they don't want to be indeans any more, they came here to be Americans, I have seen project after project canceled, not because the software could not be written, but because the people writing the software were not capable, were not mature enough to succeed. Even when the designs were sound, the ability to execute on those designs...the ability to even understand those designs was minimal. Just look at the ratio of failures that Infosys has had, and they are India's top firm. I did mention earlier that a local company here did contract a Indian firm to do a project, analysis and all, and it failed horribly. I agree with you here. Outsourcing is still difficult to do successfully, and I can't remember anyone having good success with it. It still does not change the fact that Managers will at least try to sell out the American worker for a few bucks. The fool is right about that. It does not mean that it will be successful. It also does not mean that Managers should not try. The Fool is against letting market forces re-educate IT management about the value of American programming. It is a cry to say, We are afraid that we might lose, so let's whack them off at the knees before they have a chance to show their mettle. I am in favor of outsourcing because I think it will light a fire under the Lazy American Programmers . We withstood the Dotcom fallout, we can withstand this as well. I say, allow criticism to be the referee in this issue. I would agreee with you if it were a free - and OPEN - market, but it's not. If it were free -and ---OPEN--- then the best value would win out. The way it is set up, only the outsourcing can win. They will after all catch up if Americans are not allowed to particiapate. Besides, what on earth makes you think the american programmer is lazy? We work have worked harder than anyone else in the company, in every company. Still, it's allwyas the PM who get's the bonus and the promotion. SNIP Even if this were not the case, even if we were comparing like abilities (which WILL eventually be the case, and faster than you might think), even then, we are talking about flooding a market, we are talking about undercutting. If for instance we were talking about Diamonds, or Gold, or anything, this would not be acceptable. Free market does not mean that someone can artificially change the value of something by flooding the market with that product. You make a good segue for me to mention again that the value is very artificial.
Re: Bases, was Re: Stirling engine queries
From: David Hobby [EMAIL PROTECTED] There are two kinds of divisibility tests. They aren't usually given names, but let's call them ending tests and sum of digits tests. Working base 10, there are ending tests for 2,4,8,... and 5,25,... as well as for their products. (Let's ignore combined tests for products such as 6, since those can always be created.) In base 10, there are nice sum of digits tests for 3 and 9, and a poor one for 11. (There's a really messy one for divisibility by 7 as well, illustrating that it is always possible to produce a poor test.) The tests for 3 and 9 are based on the fact that 10 = 9 + 1, and the test for 11 uses that 100 = 9*11 + 1. What are the divisibility tests for 7 and 11? -bryon _ Store more e-mails with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage 4 plans to choose from! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bases, was Re: Stirling engine queries
David Hobby wrote: Well, a little better. Depending how you count, you can argue that 12 has more factors than 10. This must be worth something, since I don't hear anyone pushing for prime bases such as 11. Agreed, it's not a big deal. It might be more to make a number base feel comfortable than a great aid in calculations. Base 10 has a minor advantage in divisibility tests that I don't think you get with any other possible base between 5 and 17. And unlike 5 and 17, it's not prime. Julia There are two kinds of divisibility tests. They aren't usually given names, but let's call them ending tests and sum of digits tests. Working base 10, there are ending tests for 2,4,8,... and 5,25,... as well as for their products. (Let's ignore combined tests for products such as 6, since those can always be created.) In base 10, there are nice sum of digits tests for 3 and 9, and a poor one for 11. (There's a really messy one for divisibility by 7 as well, illustrating that it is always possible to produce a poor test.) The tests for 3 and 9 are based on the fact that 10 = 9 + 1, and the test for 11 uses that 100 = 9*11 + 1. So base 12 is not bad, it gives nice tests for 2,4,8,... for 3,9,..., for 11 since 12 = 11 + 1 and it gives a poor test for 13 since 12^2 = 11*13 + 1. The situation for 5 and for 7 seems to be even worse. Contrast this with base 10, which gives a good test for 5 but has a worse test for 11 and none for 13. I'd say that this stuff gets pretty fuzzy. One could argue that 5 is more important than 11 and 13. On the other hand, one could say that ending tests are better than sum of digits tests, and conclude that 12 is superior since it replaces sum of digits tests for 3,9,... with ending tests. Is this the kind of thing you were thinking about? The sum of digits test for 3 only works because it's the square root of 9. A sum of digits test would work for 2 and 4 in base 5. A sum of digits test would work for 4 and 16 in base 17. A sum of digits test would work for 5 and 25 in base 26. Etc. Base 12 would give better tests for more numbers. And a sum of digits test would work for 11 there. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: This Is Spinal Ta-, er, Metallica
Horn, John wrote: From: Travis Edmunds [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] boring). You want a good guitarist, with good mechanics, that's not flashy/trashy, and just may have an exceptional ear? Mark Knopfler. How about Nils Lofgren? From what I've heard he's the guitarists pick for best guitarist. He's been around forever but has never completely gotten his due from the general public. And he hasn't had a dinosaur named after him. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Pledge of Allegiance
Horn, John wrote: From: Dan Minette [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] In Texas, school children are required to either say the pledge of allegiance to Texas or to stand respectfully while others do. There's a pledge of allegiance to Texas? The state? Weird. Just when you think you've heard everything. How does it go? I pledge allegiance to the Dallas Cowboys and the NFL for which they stand... No, because football is the *religion* here, and there's separation of church and state. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Stirling engine queries
Nick Lidster wrote: Also, if you look at the tips of your fingers and those knuckles closest to the tips, you will see 12 of them on one hand -- so it is Robert J. Chassell Rattlesnake Enterprises http://www.rattlesnake.com GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.teak.cc [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l yeh im probley stupid or forgot how to count.. but can someone please count to 12 using the tips and top knuckels of one hand, 'cause i only get 10. I can see how one can do it, exclude teh thumb and the base knuckles, use the tips and the top 2 knuckles of each finger, again rembering to exclude the thumb. So as far as my base 10 counting skills go, it is impossible to get 12 using 5 fingers, and 2 points of refrence. How's this: Use your thumb as a pointer. You have 3 segments each on 4 fingers. Count the segments in some particular order using your thumb as the pointer for each count. With 2 hands, you can get up to 144. Next exercise: Describe how to count up to 1023 on 10 fingers. :) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Stirling engine queries
- Original Message - From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 1:40 PM Subject: Re: Stirling engine queries Describe how to count up to 1023 on 10 fingers. :) I'm not sure that regestered with me. :-) Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: L3 Bitter Mellons, Gin and Tonic, and a an Un- reasonable vie w.
I have not seen any mention of the North's concern about the White Slave. Since slavery was defined as a racial thing, and people born to slaves inherited being a slave, the possiblity existed of a slave being born that was mostly white, but a slave since their mother was a slave. It would only take about four generations for a white slave to emerge. It was the possibility of white slaves that was used as propaganda to abolish slavery, so that even if a Northerner felt that blacks should be slaves (racial inheritance), they could not intellectually support slavery if there was the possibility that a white person could be born a slave. Ref: http://scholarspublishing.com/ Tenzer explains that in the antebellum South, the children of slave mothers were slaves from the moment of birth. Even though miscegenation lightened skin color, virtually white slave children were still considered mulattoes and remained slaves nonetheless, even after an endless number of generations went by and all discernible Negroid traits were long gone. A good example is a case he reports in which a slave woman who was one sixty-fourth black was on the auction block. One of her great-great-great-great grandparents was black. Not all slaves in the South were black, and this phenomenon of white slaves, whites with a distant black ancestor, was to have unexpected political consequences. A large number of white slaves escaped to the Northern states hoping to pass into free white society, and slave catchers went North looking for them. This posed a direct threat to white people living in the North because under the provisions of the Fugitive Slave Law of 1850, runaway slaves could be reclaimed without due process, which in effect allowed for free whites to be mistakenly seized. Any thoughts on this? The claim on this web site is that this is the real reason for the civil war. Nerd From Hell ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: L3 Bitter Mellons, Gin and Tonic, and a an Un- reasonable vie w.
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have not seen any mention of the North's concern about the White Slave. Since slavery was defined as a racial thing, and people born to slaves inherited being a slave, the possiblity existed of a slave being born that was mostly white, but a slave since their mother was a slave. It would only take about four generations for a white slave to emerge. I don't think this was a very big deal. I've never heard of the book you referred to, nor the guy who wrote it, and the tenor of the website does not inspire confidence in me. The particular case of the slave who was 1/64th blck was quite famous. Salmon Chase (later Lincoln's Secretary of Treasury and appointee as Chief Justice) was sent to represent a group of Northern abolitionists to buy her freedom. I don't remember if he succeeded or not - I think that he did, but am not certain. But it was just one incident among many. The paradox that he sought to address isn't, to my mind, much of a paradox. Northern society was very racist. It was entirely possible to abhor slavery and _still_ be a racist. That was, I think, pretty much the default position in the North, actually. So it really isn't that surprising that after the war and abolition the North didn't make the efforts that it should have to promote equality. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Shrub: people are poor because they are lazy.
--- The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.glocom.org/opinions/essays/20040301_tsurumi_president/ President George Bush and the Gilded Age Yoshi Tsurumi (Professor of International Business, Baruch College, the City University of New York ) most snipped At Harvard Business School, thirty years ago, George Bush was a student of mine. I still vividly remember him. In my class, he declared that people are poor because they are lazy. He was opposed to labor unions, social security, environmental protection, Medicare, and public schools... And his admin is pushing for changing the Endangered Species Act to allow the importation of any of more than 500 foreign endangered species protected by the Act - a major revision of the Act. (Bona fide species survival/breeding programs are already allowed to import breeding stock.) Public comments on this revision are closed after March 9. This is a very bad idea; public demand for rare species such as hyacinth macaws has already created tremendous pressure on the wild breeding population, and in the case of primates, adults are often killed to get the young. Debbi If we are saying that the loss of species in and of itself is inherently bad -- I don't think we know enough about how the world works to say that. -Interior Department Assistant Secretary Craig Manson, appointed by President Bush to position overseeing the Endangered Species Act, Los Angeles Times, Nov. 12, 2003 __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Farewell and Goodnight (was: Re: Race to the Bottom)
From Russell C.: Thankyou Michael for the profanity - big help from someone who has made such demands about the way we treat him onlist in the past... You are right, I am an unreasonable person, I've been so demanding. By the by I've only made requests, not demands, but I'm sure you see it differently. Part of the reason I've made those requests is because I've been so stressed out in the last year due to financial problems that any subject too close to me sets me off rather quickly, as was seen here. I'm glad I checked the archives, because this proves to me what I already suspected. I'm not really welcome here. Moreover, I've come to realize that participating in this list makes me feel worse, not better. I'm unsubscribing completely, and doubt seriously if I'll come back even after I get a job. Nobody cares about my 3D stuff on the rare occasions that I actually produce something that I can share publically., so there's no point in sticking around to post about it. I'm CCing this message to myself as a reminder as to why I left in case the notion of coming back creaps into my screwed-up brain. Goodbye everyone, some of you I will miss, others not so much. Michael Harney [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Republicans: 'a Vote Against Bush Is a Vote For Hitler'
Feel the HATE flowing from GOP republiKKKlans: http://www.ktok.com/cc-common/feeds/view.php?feed_id=135feed=/local.htm linstance=1article_id=1559 Cole Claims a Vote Against Bush Is a Vote For Hitler Wednesday, March 3, 2004 at 9:04pm Republican Congressman Tom Cole claims a vote against the re-election of President Bush is like supporting Adolph Hitler during World War Two. It's what he said recently before a meeting of Canadian County Republicans. U-S Representative Tom Cole might have stirred up Democrats by saying a vote against the re-election of President Bush is like supporting Adolph Hitler during World War Two. Or supporting Osama bin Laden now. If George Bush loses the election, Osama bin Laden wins the election, Cole is quoted in this week's edition of the Yukon Review which covered the recent meeting of the Canadinan County Republicans where Cole was a speaker. The newspaper says Cole claims if Bush loses his re-election bid, the enemies of the U-S will interpret it as a victory for bin Laden. No comment so far from Oklahoma Democratic party leaders to see if they think Cole is comparing John Kerry to Adolph Hitler or Osama bin Laden. In the Yukon Review article, Cole is quoted as asking what Hitler might have thought had Franklin Roosevelt not been re-elected in 1944. (JB) - I Pledge Impertinence to the Flag-Waving of the Unindicted Co-Conspirators of America and to the Republicans for which I can't stand one Abomination, Underhanded Fraud Indefensible with Liberty and Justice Forget it. -Life in Hell (Matt Groening) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Shrub avoids attacking suspected terrorist mastermind 3 times
Are you any safer because of this incompetence? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4431601/ Avoiding attacking suspected terrorist mastermind Abu Musab Zarqawi blamed for more than 700 killings in Iraq By Jim Miklaszewski Correspondent NBC News Updated: 7:14 p.m. ET March 02, 2004 With Tuesday's attacks, Abu Musab Zarqawi, a Jordanian militant with ties to al-Qaida, is now blamed for more than 700 terrorist killings in Iraq. But NBC News has learned that long before the war the Bush administration had several chances to wipe out his terrorist operation and perhaps kill Zarqawi himself -- but never pulled the trigger. In June 2002, U.S. officials say intelligence had revealed that Zarqawi and members of al-Qaida had set up a weapons lab at Kirma, in northern Iraq, producing deadly ricin and cyanide. The Pentagon quickly drafted plans to attack the camp with cruise missiles and airstrikes and sent it to the White House, where, according to U.S. government sources, the plan was debated to death in the National Security Council. People were more obsessed with developing the coalition to overthrow Saddam than to execute the president's policy of pre-emption against terrorists.' -- Roger Cressey Terrorism expert Here we had targets, we had opportunities, we had a country willing to support casualties, or risk casualties after 9/11 and we still didn't do it, said Michael O'Hanlon, military analyst with the Brookings Institution. Four months later, intelligence showed Zarqawi was planning to use ricin in terrorist attacks in Europe. The Pentagon drew up a second strike plan, and the White House again killed it. By then the administration had set its course for war with Iraq. People were more obsessed with developing the coalition to overthrow Saddam than to execute the president's policy of preemption against terrorists, according to terrorism expert and former National Security Council member Roger Cressey. In January 2003, the threat turned real. Police in London arrested six terror suspects and discovered a ricin lab connected to the camp in Iraq. The Pentagon drew up still another attack plan, and for the third time, the National Security Council killed it. Military officials insist their case for attacking Zarqawi's operation was airtight, but the administration feared destroying the terrorist camp in Iraq could undercut its case for war against Saddam. The United States did attack the camp at Kirma at the beginning of the war, but it was too late -- Zarqawi and many of his followers were gone. Here's a case where they waited, they waited too long and now we're suffering as a result inside Iraq, Cressey added. And despite the Bush administration's tough talk about hitting the terrorists before they strike, Zarqawi's killing streak continues today. - Shrub 04: Don't Switch Horsemen Mid-Apocalypse ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bases, was Re: Stirling engine queries
Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Base 10 has a minor advantage in divisibility tests that I don't think you get with any other possible base between 5 and 17. And unlike 5 and 17, it's not prime. What are the tests and the advantage? I don't know anything about this. Perhaps it will reconcile me to base 10! -- Robert J. Chassell Rattlesnake Enterprises http://www.rattlesnake.com GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.teak.cc [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bases, was Re: Stirling engine queries
... but can someone please count to 12 using the tips and top knuckels of one hand, 'cause i only get 10. I count 12: Looking at my left hand, palm towards my eyes, with my fingers curled over, I see the four tips of my fingers and four of the knuckles closest to my finger tips and four more which are the knuckles second closest to my finger tips. I can either divide that 12 into either * three sets of four: tips, first set of knuckles, second set of knuckles, each a set of four in three rows; or into * four sets of three: for each of four fingers, the tip, first, and second knuckle, each finger having three obvious and visible places on it. -- Robert J. Chassell Rattlesnake Enterprises http://www.rattlesnake.com GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.teak.cc [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bases, was Re: Stirling engine queries
Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote The problem with base 12 is that it has _2_ twice and _3_ once when you factor it, so that the practical man rules to check if a number is divisible by another would get a higher degree of confusion. Ah, I see your point. However, I don't use those rules. I learned them many years ago, but don't remember them. You raise an interesting point. My question is whether the application of those rules provides enough of a issue to have made much of a difference these last 800 (base 10) years? Base 6 would be a much better choice than base 12. No, it would not, since 6 is not readily divisible by 4. If you want to make halves, thirds, and quarters easy, then 12 is the minimum. -- Robert J. Chassell Rattlesnake Enterprises http://www.rattlesnake.com GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.teak.cc [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Race to the Bottom
Russell wrote: Out of curiosity, and without wanting to get into the whole is it good/is it bad/is it fair thing: What is it that the people who complain about off-shoring want done about it. I see this proposal has been submitted to the house: * The proposed Defending American Jobs Act, introduced on Wednesday, requires federal agencies that provide grants or loan guarantees to businesses to obtain reports on the number of employees those companies have inside and outside the United States, and on how much each group is being paid. One year after the bill becomes law, which is unlikely to happen this year, grant or loan recipients would be required to disclose how many domestic employees have been laid off as a proportion of the company's total global work force. Here's the catch: If more U.S. workers than foreign workers received the ax, the company would be ineligible for further assistance until it started hiring American employees again. ** I think (a) it's doomed, (b) it's probably a bit limited in scope because the big stick only applies to a limited number of companies, and (c) it's probably a good idea - at least it's a formula that encourages companies to think twice about layoffs, though it completely misses outsourcing (where the US company doesn't actually have any foreign employees, just a contract with a foreign company). Cheers Russell C. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Stirling engine queries
Julia, et al, Describe how to count up to 1023 on 10 fingers. :) That's easy to describe, but a whole lot more difficult to use :-). I remember seeing Doug Engelbart (inventor of the computer mouse, etc) http://tinyurl.com/9km7 using a one-handed chorded keyboard http://tinyurl.com/3ajld that worked like your suggestion. Imagine having to learn the binary representation of ASCII characters and repeat it reliably! He claimed that it only took a couple of hours to learn. But then again, he was Doug Engelbart. Towards the more day-to-day end of the scale, I learned a very usable way to count to 100 on two hands. It's interesting in that it mixes bases 5 and 10 to work its magic. Poise your hands just above a surface, as over a piano keyboard. In this position, your hands represent that famous Arabic contribution to mathematics, the invaluable zero. Starting with your pinky and moving towards your index finger, count off 1-2-3-4 by lowering each successive finger to the surface (and keeping it there), as you might when drumming your fingers. Next, lift all four fingers and drop your thumb for 5. Repeat steps 1-2-3-4 (with your thumb down) to represent 6-7-8-9. Here's where base 10 comes in. Raise all five fingers and drop your other pinky to represent 10. Repeat as necessary. I think you can take it from there. It's really fast -- I've used it when I had to count noses of people coming into a room. Dave David M. Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] 408-551-0427 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Republicans: 'a Vote Against Bush Is a Vote For Hitler'
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Feel the HATE flowing from GOP republiKKKlans: http://www.ktok.com/cc-common/feeds/view.php? feed_id=135feed=/local.htm linstance=1article_id=1559 Cole Claims a Vote Against Bush Is a Vote For Hitler Wednesday, March 3, 2004 at 9:04pm Republican Congressman Tom Cole claims a vote against the re- election of President Bush is like supporting Adolph Hitler during World War Two. It's what he said recently before a meeting of Canadian County Republicans. Here we go again. Cole is clearly anti-semetic. Besides he probably drives a Ford. Even though thee may be a bit of evidence suggesting that some who are against the reelection og Bush are for OBL, it doesn't mean that everyone who votes for him is a nazi. Wait, where are my references? Never mind, since I don't have any, Cole must be right! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Race to the Bottom
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Russell Chapman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Russell wrote: Out of curiosity, and without wanting to get into the whole is it good/is it bad/is it fair thing: What is it that the people who complain about off-shoring want done about it. I see this proposal has been submitted to the house: * The proposed Defending American Jobs Act, introduced on Wednesday, requires federal agencies that provide grants or loan guarantees to businesses to obtain reports on the number of employees those companies have inside and outside the United States, and on how much each group is being paid. One year after the bill becomes law, which is unlikely to happen this year, grant or loan recipients would be required to disclose how many domestic employees have been laid off as a proportion of the company's total global work force. Here's the catch: If more U.S. workers than foreign workers received the ax, the company would be ineligible for further assistance until it started hiring American employees again. ** I think (a) it's doomed, (b) it's probably a bit limited in scope because the big stick only applies to a limited number of companies, and (c) it's probably a good idea - at least it's a formula that encourages companies to think twice about layoffs, though it completely misses outsourcing (where the US company doesn't actually have any foreign employees, just a contract with a foreign company). Nothing wrong with the idea of America for Americns (devoid of ratial conotiation of course) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: L3 Bitter Mellons, Gin and Tonic, and an Un- reasonable view.
--- Robert J. Chassell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The famous phrase is that the Northern government was going to give former slaves `40 acres and a mule'. On the one hand, it may have been impossible for the North to provide mules, on account there not being enough of them (I don't know). Does any one know how many mules there were and what the demand might have been, both for mules and for whatever else former slave settlers would have needed? I couldn't find the exact answer to your question, but here are my guesstimates: According to a site on Southern agriculture, ...black slaves increase from fewer than 1 million in 1800 to 3 million by 1850, so I'm assuming that roughly 750,000 mules would have been needed to fulfill that promise, assuming 1 mule per family rather than per slave. Given the post-Civil War decline in mule production according to the Missouri site below - and I have no idea how many animals died in the war, but blindly guess in the hundreds of thousands range* - I think that it would have been impossible to supply the newly-freed families with a mule. From these sites, the cost would have been about 750K x $60/head = $45,000,000 for mules alone, had they been available. http://nature.berkeley.edu/departments/espm/env-hist/espm160/studyguide/chap7.htm (This site gives some figures on cotton and sugar production, as well as mentioning technological and social changes; I think it's a bit PC as well.) *According to this National Museum of Civil War Medicine site, 1 million horses died in the conflict. http://www.civilwarmed.org/exhibits.cfm And this cites 1.3-1.5 million: http://www.nsl.org/warhorse.htm On the number of mules foaled in the US post-Civil War: http://ag.smsu.edu/mule2.htm In 1889, there were 34,500 mules foaled in the state of Missouri alone out of a total 117,000 in the United States. Of the 330,000 sold, Missouri alone supplied 68,300. On the price of mules before the Civil War: http://ag.smsu.edu/mule4.htm In 1852...One lot of 154 two-year-old mules brought $86 per head...In 1854, Jacob and Irwin Maddox of Fulton had reportedly sold 100 yearling mules to N. L. Lindsay of Bourbon County, Kentucky for $10,000... [Note that mules could not be expected to be 'useful' on the farm until they were at least 3-year-olds.] During the war: Most of the time, Missouri breeders found that most of their mules were simply taken by one side or other. To make matters even worse, mules that once brought in $150 per animal had dropped to a trading price of around $61. And after the war It was noted that it took until 1879 for the [Missouri] mule industry to reach the level that it had been in 1860. This was largely due to the slow recovery to the cotton industry in the south. According to this site (which also has some bias), The South lost agricultural resources - 42% of its pigs, 20% of its sheep, 30 % of its mules, 32% of its horses, 35% of its cattle. http://www.calstatela.edu/faculty/jtomask/471/Postcw.html From a timeline-format of US agriculture: http://www.usda.gov/history2/text4.htm 1945: 42 labor-hours required to produce 100 pounds (2/5 acre) of lint cotton with 2 mules, 1-row plow, 1-row cultivator, hand how, and hand pick Other mule factoids: http://www.britishmulesociety.org.uk/ Rare cases of mules producing live foals, which apparently inspired the Roman equivalent of 'once in a blue moon: Cum mula peperit. http://www.qmfound.com/remount1.htm The procurement and training of horses and mules for military use was the function of the Quartermaster Corps from 1775 to 1957. During and after World War II the Quartermaster Corps was responsible for the training of War Dogs... This site reports on the use of mules ( horses) by the US during WWII. As I posted before, mules (from Tennessee) were sent to Afghanistan during the 1980s to support the muhajideen (sp?). Debbi who is glad for her horses' sakes that cavalry is now mechanized __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bases, was Re: Stirling engine queries
- Original Message - From: Robert J. Chassell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 6:38 PM Subject: Re: Bases, was Re: Stirling engine queries ... but can someone please count to 12 using the tips and top knuckels of one hand, 'cause i only get 10. I count 12: Looking at my left hand, palm towards my eyes, with my fingers curled over, I see the four tips of my fingers and four of the knuckles closest to my finger tips and four more which are the knuckles second closest to my finger tips. I can either divide that 12 into either * three sets of four: tips, first set of knuckles, second set of knuckles, each a set of four in three rows; or into * four sets of three: for each of four fingers, the tip, first, and second knuckle, each finger having three obvious and visible places on it. -- Robert J. Chassell Rattlesnake Enterprises http://www.rattlesnake.com GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.teak.cc [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ill repost as you have missed my count, and how we were to make the count using your provided rules. ( Also, if you look at the tips of your fingers and those knuckles closest to the tips, you will see 12 of them on one hand -- so it is Robert J. Chassell Rattlesnake Enterprises http://www.rattlesnake.com GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.teak.cc [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l yeh im probley stupid or forgot how to count.. but can someone please count to 12 using the tips and top knuckels of one hand, 'cause i only get 10. I can see how one can do it, exclude teh thumb and the base knuckles, use the tips and the top 2 knuckles of each finger, again rembering to exclude the thumb. So as far as my base 10 counting skills go, it is impossible to get 12 using 5 fingers, and 2 points of refrence. Nick I cant count Lidster) as you can see you stipulated that you were to use the tips of your fingers, and the closest knucle to the tip, not all of the knuckles minus the base knuckle as I stated in my rebuttle. I stand on the threshold of tommorow, atop the stairway of yesterday, holding the key to today, staring through the door into the future. -Nick Lidster 26 May 2003 http://capelites.no-ip.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Pledge of Allegence
--- Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip In Texas, school children are required to either say the pledge of allegence to Texas or to stand respectfully while others do. Ted says the US pledge of allegence, because he feels comfortable doing so. He's not against Texas, but he and I don't see having allegence to Texas in its disputes with, say Oklahoma, makes much sense at all. Is it just me, or is there something wrong with requiring two pledges? serious I think it's ridiculous, but maybe that's because I grew up all over the 'States, and never considered myself anything but American (well, and a proud 'Army brat'). I would personally object to my child (if I had one) pledging allegiance to any state. Debbi who 'fits in' more with being a Westerner than anything else...too polite to be a Northeasterner, too outspoken to be a Southerner, likes too much spicy food to be a Midwesterner... ;) __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Haiku
From: Nick Lidster [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] I cant reply to this.. 'cause no one likes me L Nick no likes me Lidster I don't see that stopping anyone else posting. Go on, give it a go, it can't get any worse can it? Subject: RE: Haiku xponent No Seasons Maru rob Good work by the way Bob, although I did note your lack of seasons, (apart from the moulting hair/autumn one of course). Be warned but, it might inspire me, and it could be messy. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Pledge of Allegiance
- Original Message - From: Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 6:41 AM Subject: RE: Pledge of Allegiance From: Dan Minette [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] In Texas, school children are required to either say the pledge of allegiance to Texas or to stand respectfully while others do. There's a pledge of allegiance to Texas? The state? Weird. Just when you think you've heard everything. How does it go? I pledge allegiance to the Dallas Cowboys and the NFL for which they stand... Not too weird really. Texas was a Nation in the more or less modern sense for a few years. (As opposed to a kingdom or such) Its not surprising that Texas would have appendix like attributes as part of its civic requirements. But I disagree with forcing kids to pledge to Texas. It's just unnecessary. xponent Texas Flag In Every Classroom Too Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Finger math (was RE: Stirling engine queries)
--- Robert J. Chassell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snippage Also, if you look at the tips of your fingers and those knuckles closest to the tips, you will see 12 of them on one hand -- so it is easy to count on your fingers. While programmers never count on their fingers, over the past millennia, many other people have... http://personal.cfw.com/~clayford/finger.html Using fingers to perform math computations is known as Chisenbop. Here's a site that will tell you all you want to know. In the meantime, here's a couple of examples of Chisenbop to get you started...Multiplying by 9... Now _my_ recall of the name of this method was Chismbob - which was nearly the name of my 'tuxedo cat' (the woman who gave him to me wanted me to call him Bob after her husband, but I gave her the choice of Chismbob or 'Zimbobwe' -- thus Zimba joined the household). Lo and behold, there is indeed Chismbob on the web: http://www.eyrie.org/~drizzt/mylnh/tfw3-1.html [Third section down] Chismbob Boy strode proudly into the LNH lobby. I'm here to be a Legionnaire! he announced proudly. Lester the receptionist looked up blandly. Uh huh. Isn't this a school day? Evil knows no tardy bell. Alllright. what's your name, son? I am Chismbob Boy -- when Evil needs accounting! Lester sucked his teeth, staring at the dramatic pose the skinny adolescent had assumed. He pressed the intercom. Master Blaster, Frat Boy, Incredible-Man-With-No-Life to the lobby please. Are they going to guide me in? Kewl! The summoned Net.Heroes burst into the lobby. Lester gestured a thumb at the garish hero-wannabe. Ah! Look out, guys. It's Continuity Champ's Tailor Jr.! quipped Master Blaster. I'm, ah, Chismbob Boy. Sarcastic Lad sent me to join up. The three heroes looked to each other. Chismbob Boy? Ahhahahahah! They broke out into laughter so intense tears were flying. Oh man, Sarc has the best one yet! Frat Boy said between guffaws. That's better than Lawn-Flamingo Lass you sent in last week, MB. Incredible-Man-With-No-Life started waggling his fingers. The answer is...10 to life! Sorry Clueless Master, it adds up to jail for you! Beware, these fingers are weapons of math fu! Much, much, much more on-site... ;) Debbi who still thinks that most folks, if they count on their fingers, are gonna wind up with base 10 __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bases, was Re: Stirling engine queries
- Original Message - From: David Hobby [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 7:38 AM Subject: Re: Bases, was Re: Stirling engine queries Well, a little better. Depending how you count, you can argue that 12 has more factors than 10. This must be worth something, since I don't hear anyone pushing for prime bases such as 11. Agreed, it's not a big deal. It might be more to make a number base feel comfortable than a great aid in calculations. Base 10 has a minor advantage in divisibility tests that I don't think you get with any other possible base between 5 and 17. And unlike 5 and 17, it's not prime. Julia There are two kinds of divisibility tests. They aren't usually given names, but let's call them ending tests and sum of digits tests. Working base 10, there are ending tests for 2,4,8,... and 5,25,... as well as for their products. (Let's ignore combined tests for products such as 6, since those can always be created.) In base 10, there are nice sum of digits tests for 3 and 9, and a poor one for 11. (There's a really messy one for divisibility by 7 as well, illustrating that it is always possible to produce a poor test.) The tests for 3 and 9 are based on the fact that 10 = 9 + 1, and the test for 11 uses that 100 = 9*11 + 1. So base 12 is not bad, it gives nice tests for 2,4,8,... for 3,9,..., for 11 since 12 = 11 + 1 and it gives a poor test for 13 since 12^2 = 11*13 + 1. The situation for 5 and for 7 seems to be even worse. Contrast this with base 10, which gives a good test for 5 but has a worse test for 11 and none for 13. I'd say that this stuff gets pretty fuzzy. One could argue that 5 is more important than 11 and 13. On the other hand, one could say that ending tests are better than sum of digits tests, and conclude that 12 is superior since it replaces sum of digits tests for 3,9,... with ending tests. Is this the kind of thing you were thinking about? ---David Who needs whole number divisibility when you have fractions and can work decimals? You would have to do these things no matter what the base you use, in the real world. Getting people to change bases would be whole magnitudes of difficulty greater than getting them to go metric. G xponent Numbers game Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Haiku
- Original Message - From: Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 8:18 AM Subject: RE: Haiku From: Robert Seeberger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] SNIP This needs to be submitted to rec.humor.funny or something. These are great! I'm so totally going to steal them... grin *** Permission granted! G xponent Goodwill Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Haiku
- Original Message - From: Nick Lidster [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 9:05 AM Subject: Re: Haiku I cant reply to this.. 'cause no one likes me L Nick no likes me Lidster Why do you say that? Or am I missing something? xponent Confusions Reins Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Haiku
- Original Message - From: Andrew Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 5:24 PM Subject: RE: Haiku xponent No Seasons Maru rob Good work by the way Bob, although I did note your lack of seasons, (apart from the moulting hair/autumn one of course). Be warned but, it might inspire me, and it could be messy. ** Ha Ha! When I decided to write those, I went to look at a few Haiku websites and noted that the experts bent the rules whenever they felt like it. Not just the seasons but the number of syllables too. Golly gee whilikers I thought. I can ignore rules as good as the next guy. So I did. G Anytime you want to play dueling Haiku, I'll be game. Sounds like fun! And please ignore the Bear when he calls me Bob. He is just teasing me because I told him my name is Rob and bob is what newlyweds in San Francisco do. Simply awful. I can't believe I said that! Bad Me! Spank Spank Spank xponent Whimpering In The Corner Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Stirling engine queries
On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 01:40:47PM -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: Describe how to count up to 1023 on 10 fingers. :) 132 to you! -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Pledge of Allegiance
At 06:46 PM 3/4/2004, you wrote: - Original Message - From: Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 6:41 AM Subject: RE: Pledge of Allegiance From: Dan Minette [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] In Texas, school children are required to either say the pledge of allegiance to Texas or to stand respectfully while others do. There's a pledge of allegiance to Texas? The state? Weird. Just when you think you've heard everything. How does it go? I pledge allegiance to the Dallas Cowboys and the NFL for which they stand... Not too weird really. Texas was a Nation in the more or less modern sense for a few years. (As opposed to a kingdom or such) Its not surprising that Texas would have appendix like attributes as part of its civic requirements. But I disagree with forcing kids to pledge to Texas. It's just unnecessary. rob 's funny, when I was down there the natives were proud to be from texas, to have their own pledge, that texas history was a requirment in grades x- xx. The texas flag story is a myth however. (That it's state flag is the only one that can be as high as the US flag.) Wish I'd known that 13 years ago. Kevin T. - VRWC wasting time ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Stirling engine queries
I can do it to 1024.. but to 1023 i have no idea I stand on the threshold of tommorow, atop the stairway of yesterday, holding the key to today, staring through the door into the future. -Nick Lidster 26 May 2003 http://capelites.no-ip.com - Original Message - From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 9:23 PM Subject: Re: Stirling engine queries On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 01:40:47PM -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: Describe how to count up to 1023 on 10 fingers. :) 132 to you! -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Stirling engine queries
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Describe how to count up to 1023 on 10 fingers. :) My wife and I (both CS) use this method exclusivly. I think I have even posted this here before. Anyway, one day we went to the grocer on our way for a long road trip. From across the store, she wanted to know how many Necterines to get total. Using hand signals I asked how many se whould like. She held up her index finger signeling that she would want 2. I then replied that I would also want 2 and responded that this made 4 total. A guy that had been standing close to me but between my wife and I came over and began to yell at me. I had no idea why, and I called for security. When security arived, several soccer moms close by got involved and told them that I had been rude to the man and that was why he was attacking me. I then realized what had happned and tried to explainIt did little good though, they just could not understand how I could have been counting in that manner. I like to use this now as a kind of insult, you hold up 4 fingers on one hand and ask the insult reciever to convert to binary. The UT marching band went to south america and were thrown out of a band competition for using the hook-em-horns sign, which means something very vulgar. After a lot of explaining and a promise not to repeat the offense they were allowed back 3 years latter. At this point they decided that if they could not use the hoom-em then they would hold up an OK sign. Unfortunatly the hand signals are synonimous. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Stirling engine queries
On 5 Mar 2004, at 1:03 am, Nick Lidster wrote: I can do it to 1024.. but to 1023 i have no idea Your fingers must have had a fencepost accident :) -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ It is our belief, however, that serious professional users will run out of things they can do with UNIX. - Ken Olsen, President of DEC, 1984. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Stirling engine queries
Nick, I can do it to 1024.. but to 1023 i have no idea Zero counts, but for nothing. I stand on the threshold of tommorow, atop the stairway of yesterday, holding the key to today, staring through the door into the future. Bully for you. As for me, I generally stumble up the stairway of my lost youth, only to stand on the threshhold of tomorrow with the cold rain of the future ruining the belated birthday card I clutch in my hand as I pat myself down frantically, searching for the key to today, only to realize that it's in the right-front pocket of trousers of yesterday, which I left on the floor of my ancestors at the foot of the bed of overstretched metaphors. Dave David M. Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] 408-551-0427 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Pledge of Allegiance
- Original Message - From: Kevin Tarr [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 7:02 PM Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance At 06:46 PM 3/4/2004, you wrote: - Original Message - From: Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 6:41 AM Subject: RE: Pledge of Allegiance From: Dan Minette [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] In Texas, school children are required to either say the pledge of allegiance to Texas or to stand respectfully while others do. There's a pledge of allegiance to Texas? The state? Weird. Just when you think you've heard everything. How does it go? I pledge allegiance to the Dallas Cowboys and the NFL for which they stand... Not too weird really. Texas was a Nation in the more or less modern sense for a few years. (As opposed to a kingdom or such) Its not surprising that Texas would have appendix like attributes as part of its civic requirements. But I disagree with forcing kids to pledge to Texas. It's just unnecessary. rob 's funny, when I was down there the natives were proud to be from texas, to have their own pledge, that texas history was a requirment in grades x- xx. The texas flag story is a myth however. (That it's state flag is the only one that can be as high as the US flag.) Wish I'd known that 13 years ago. The flags are displayed that way all the time though. Its kinda like the argument about the San Jacinto Monument being taller than the Washington Monument. xponent A Star Of Difference Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Pledge of Allegiance
- Original Message - From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 5:46 PM Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance - Original Message - From: Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 6:41 AM Subject: RE: Pledge of Allegiance From: Dan Minette [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] In Texas, school children are required to either say the pledge of allegiance to Texas or to stand respectfully while others do. There's a pledge of allegiance to Texas? The state? Weird. Just when you think you've heard everything. How does it go? I pledge allegiance to the Dallas Cowboys and the NFL for which they stand... Not too weird really. Texas was a Nation in the more or less modern sense for a few years. (As opposed to a kingdom or such) Its not surprising that Texas would have appendix like attributes as part of its civic requirements. But, its kinda funny to glue on an appendix 160 years later. :-) Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Stirling engine queries
Jan, Anyway, one day we went to the grocer on our way for a long road trip... Great story. It reminded me of the Gangs Kill Sign Language Users urban legend that http://tinyurl.com/2a8vf. So be careful: you and your wife could end up dead, or worse -- an urban legend! I like to use this now as a kind of insult, you hold up 4 fingers on one hand and ask the insult reciever to convert to binary. In what culture is 15 an insult? ;-) Dave Hand Signs are Evil and Should be Eradicated Land David M. Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] 408-551-0427 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Stirling engine queries
- Original Message - From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 10:01 PM Subject: Re: Stirling engine queries On 5 Mar 2004, at 1:03 am, Nick Lidster wrote: I can do it to 1024.. but to 1023 i have no idea Your fingers must have had a fencepost accident :) -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ It is our belief, however, that serious professional users will run out of things they can do with UNIX. - Ken Olsen, President of DEC, 1984. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l no no... If i remeber my diagram, I excluded teh thumbs untill last, although this has no real bearing on teh final outcome. You then use the tips and all knuckles of your fingers, it breaks down something like: 16*4=64 64*4=256 now at this point you bring back the thumbs using the tips and first knucle, 256*4=1024 the way it is done is that you use your left hand as your counter, and your right as the pointer using all points of reference that are used on the left hand. doing that gives you 1024 nick going number boggled lidster ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
States Bent on Collecting Internet Taxes
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2cid=528u=/ap/20040304/ap_on_hi_te/internet_sales_tax_7printer=1 Remember all those gifts you bought online during the holidays? Now it's time to pay sales tax on them, at least so say the income tax forms of 20 states. The latest to outstretch that revenue-seeking hand are New York and California, which this year added a line requiring taxpayers to declare any tax they owe on out-of-state purchases. Though state revenue agencies similarly sought sales tax on mail-order items before the e-commerce boom of the late 90s, Internet sales have really shined a spotlight on it and increased the urgency, said Harley Duncan, executive director of the Federation of Tax Administrators. By law, residents are supposed to pay sales taxes to their states if they order books, clothing, computers and other items by mail or online from businesses based elsewhere. Nobody very few ever followed that rule, said Anthony Leone, a certified public accountant in Buffalo. The National Governors Association estimates state and local governments will lose at least $35 billion this year from Internet sales. The new tax return line, New York state officials say, forces taxpayers to confront their liability or potentially face audits that could uncover credit card statements and mounting tax debt. But it's unclear whether that threat is enough. Dan DeVeronica, 21, who owns an Internet cafe in Rochester, says most New Yorkers, including himself, will likely leave line 56 blank as sort of a protest. Though Supreme Court precedents side with the states, DeVeronica said he was outraged New York would try to collect: The Internet is not a government service. It's privately owned so it shouldn't be taxable. It looks like scofflaws need worry little. Officials from several states said they expect few, if any, tax returns to be audited even if a taxpayer claims zero liability. And so the revenues should keep trickling in. New York tax officials are expecting the new tax line, for which they've added seven pages of instructions and tables, to yield just $2.5 million. Like New York, most states let taxpayers estimate their liability based on household income. California projects its out-of-state sales line will bring in $13 million this year out of an estimated $1.2 billion owed by individuals and businesses, said California Equalization Board spokesman Vic Anderson. That's always a problem, making people aware of this liability, Anderson said. It's one of the most misunderstood taxes out there. New York loses more than $1 billion in sales tax revenues from out-of-state purchases, according to a University of Tennessee study. In Ohio, when the line was added to tax forms four years ago, 52,000 taxpayers participated. In 2002, the number dropped to 46,000, out of 5.7 million total returns, said Gary Gudmundson, a spokesman for the Ohio tax department. The state raises about $2 million, but projects that about $500 million goes uncollected. States have tried other tactics, without any more success. When Maine added the line in 1989, it also created a default assessment of 0.04 percent of adjusted gross income if the line was left blank. By 1998, the default was gone because of concerns the system wasn't fair for taxpayers who simply forgot or didn't know the rules, said Eileen Bemis, deputy director of the Maine Sales, Fuel and Special Tax Division. Without the default, Maine generated $1.3 million from the line last year, but might be missing out on as much as $30 million a year, she said. It's pretty much an honor system in that it's very difficult to go back and audit someone's checkbook or credit card statements, Bemis said. Already, a New York lawmaker has introduced a bill to drop the line. We're going to make tax evaders out of law-abiding citizens and policemen out of tax preparers and accountants, said Assemblyman Ronald Tocci, a Democrat in the chamber's majority. Who, he asked, keeps tabs of what they buy on vacation in the Bahamas or Canada? Or anyplace? It's crazy. It's insane. Forty-five states require buyers to pay sales taxes on Internet and other out-of-state purchases, though a few, including California and Minnesota, exempt the first few hundred dollars and focus on high-ticket items. Meanwhile, a number of major retailers including Wal-Mart, Toys R Us and Target voluntarily collect state taxes. And some states are working on a streamlined sales tax project that would tax online purchases at the point of sale. Congress would have to enact a law, however, to make such a system nationwide. States with sales tax lines on their tax forms include Alabama, California, Connecticut, Idaho, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Utah, Vermont, Virginia and Wisconsin, according to the Federation of Tax Administrators. Georgia, Hawaii and the District
Re: Stirling engine queries
so it should be 123?...man what a long day, first teh federation declears war on me and now this... lol... if only i could beat the Kobayashi Maru - Original Message - From: Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 10:01 PM Subject: Re: Stirling engine queries Nick, I can do it to 1024.. but to 1023 i have no idea Zero counts, but for nothing. I stand on the threshold of tommorow, atop the stairway of yesterday, holding the key to today, staring through the door into the future. Bully for you. As for me, I generally stumble up the stairway of my lost youth, only to stand on the threshhold of tomorrow with the cold rain of the future ruining the belated birthday card I clutch in my hand as I pat myself down frantically, searching for the key to today, only to realize that it's in the right-front pocket of trousers of yesterday, which I left on the floor of my ancestors at the foot of the bed of overstretched metaphors. Dave David M. Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] 408-551-0427 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Pledge of Allegiance
- Original Message - From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 7:54 PM Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance - Original Message - From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 5:46 PM Subject: Re: Pledge of Allegiance - Original Message - From: Horn, John [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 6:41 AM Subject: RE: Pledge of Allegiance From: Dan Minette [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] In Texas, school children are required to either say the pledge of allegiance to Texas or to stand respectfully while others do. There's a pledge of allegiance to Texas? The state? Weird. Just when you think you've heard everything. How does it go? I pledge allegiance to the Dallas Cowboys and the NFL for which they stand... Not too weird really. Texas was a Nation in the more or less modern sense for a few years. (As opposed to a kingdom or such) Its not surprising that Texas would have appendix like attributes as part of its civic requirements. But, its kinda funny to glue on an appendix 160 years later. :-) I think they used to do it in some schools when I was a kid, but dropped it later. What's funny is having it removed and then gluing it back in 20 or so years later. G Patriotism is kinda weird sometimes anyway. xponent Pledge And Pray Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Pledge of Allegiance
I'm not pledging allegiance to anyone's ass. And who is Tex? -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ It is our belief, however, that serious professional users will run out of things they can do with UNIX. - Ken Olsen, President of DEC, 1984. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Haiku
From: Robert Seeberger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] When I decided to write those, I went to look at a few Haiku websites and noted that the experts bent the rules whenever they felt like it. Not just the seasons but the number of syllables too. Golly gee whilikers I thought. I can ignore rules as good as the next guy. So I did. G Yes, the syllable restrictions don't make a lot of sense in English, its got a whole different structure to Japanese. But that's as far as I go! The satori (enlightenment) is critical, it's the point of haiku for mine. And the seasonal reference (kigo) invoke a physicality, a sense of place that brings it home. One can be fairly subtle about the seasons bit though. Those ones about the blue screen of death etc. I think the sense of season/place is one sitting in front of ones computer, and so it works. Keeping it real, so to speak. Without seasons and a sense of satori, I think it looses its hakuiness. Not to say its bad, but its not haiku. There is a name for it, which escapes me right now. Five, Seven, Five, A hint of season, then cut. To Satori. Anytime you want to play dueling Haiku, I'll be game. Sounds like fun! And please ignore the Bear when he calls me Bob. He is just teasing me because I told him my name is Rob and bob is what newlyweds in San Francisco do. Sorry Rob.. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Pledge of Allegiance
William T Goodall wrote: I'm not pledging allegiance to anyone's ass. And who is Tex? Picture at http://www.texastwisted.com/attr/bigtex/ :) Julia alternate answer: anyone you can sarcastically say nice shooting to ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Stirling engine queries
Jan Coffey wrote: --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Describe how to count up to 1023 on 10 fingers. :) My wife and I (both CS) use this method exclusivly. I think I have even posted this here before. Anyway, one day we went to the grocer on our way for a long road trip. From across the store, she wanted to know how many Necterines to get total. Using hand signals I asked how many se whould like. She held up her index finger signeling that she would want 2. I then replied that I would also want 2 and responded that this made 4 total. A guy that had been standing close to me but between my wife and I came over and began to yell at me. I had no idea why, and I called for security. When security arived, several soccer moms close by got involved and told them that I had been rude to the man and that was why he was attacking me. I then realized what had happned and tried to explainIt did little good though, they just could not understand how I could have been counting in that manner. I like to use this now as a kind of insult, you hold up 4 fingers on one hand and ask the insult reciever to convert to binary. Oh, man, that story is even better than the one I have about that gesture! Ages ago, Dan was working on software to help make AutoCAD run faster. The software included a display list, which made things go faster, and they could add extra features that AutoCAD didn't have at the time. One such feature was True Erase(tm). (At least, I think it was trademarked, I could be wrong, though.) If you wanted to change a vector in AutoCAD, what it did initially was to put a black vector over the one that was there, and then create the new vector. True Erase would get rid of the old vector and the black vector a lot sooner than AutoCAD would, which helped boost performance. The company president was trying to explain this to a customer at a trade show, and held up three fingers -- one for the old vector, one for the new vector, one for the covering vector. He then went on to say how True Erase got rid of the old and covering vectors. He didn't pick the correct finger for the new vector. So one of our little inside jokes is to say True Erase! instead of the actual insult. The UT marching band went to south america and were thrown out of a band competition for using the hook-em-horns sign, which means something very vulgar. After a lot of explaining and a promise not to repeat the offense they were allowed back 3 years latter. At this point they decided that if they could not use the hoom-em then they would hold up an OK sign. Unfortunatly the hand signals are synonimous. Query: When was this? Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Stirling engine queries
Erik Reuter wrote: On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 01:40:47PM -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: Describe how to count up to 1023 on 10 fingers. :) 132 to you! Erik! I didn't know you cared! Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Stirling engine queries
On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 09:26:00PM -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: Erik Reuter wrote: On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 01:40:47PM -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: Describe how to count up to 1023 on 10 fingers. :) 132 to you! Erik! I didn't know you cared! Wouldn't that be 9 (thumbs in) or 18 (thumbs out)? -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Stirling engine queries
Dave Land wrote: Julia, et al, Describe how to count up to 1023 on 10 fingers. :) That's easy to describe, but a whole lot more difficult to use :-). I remember seeing Doug Engelbart (inventor of the computer mouse, etc) http://tinyurl.com/9km7 using a one-handed chorded keyboard http://tinyurl.com/3ajld that worked like your suggestion. Imagine having to learn the binary representation of ASCII characters and repeat it reliably! He claimed that it only took a couple of hours to learn. But then again, he was Doug Engelbart. Sounds like something I might like to play with one day. Towards the more day-to-day end of the scale, I learned a very usable way to count to 100 on two hands. It's interesting in that it mixes bases 5 and 10 to work its magic. Poise your hands just above a surface, as over a piano keyboard. In this position, your hands represent that famous Arabic contribution to mathematics, the invaluable zero. Starting with your pinky and moving towards your index finger, count off 1-2-3-4 by lowering each successive finger to the surface (and keeping it there), as you might when drumming your fingers. Next, lift all four fingers and drop your thumb for 5. Repeat steps 1-2-3-4 (with your thumb down) to represent 6-7-8-9. Here's where base 10 comes in. Raise all five fingers and drop your other pinky to represent 10. Repeat as necessary. I think you can take it from there. It's really fast -- I've used it when I had to count noses of people coming into a room. I go index to pinky, not pinky to index. Otherwise, this is the system I've used for counting on my fingers for awhile. I read an article about it when I was in 6th grade or so. (Maybe 7th.) It's useful for keeping track of a total when you're adding a lot of smallish numbers. (The last time I used it was to count the number of great-grandchildren my mother-in-law's parents have. Not that either of them are still alive, but it tells me how many people from that branch are in my children's generation.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Stirling engine queries
- Original Message - From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 9:26 PM Subject: Re: Stirling engine queries Erik Reuter wrote: On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 01:40:47PM -0600, Julia Thompson wrote: Describe how to count up to 1023 on 10 fingers. :) 132 to you! Erik! I didn't know you cared! He's a real stand up guy. xponent Multiplier Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bases, was Re: Stirling engine queries
Robert J. Chassell wrote: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Base 10 has a minor advantage in divisibility tests that I don't think you get with any other possible base between 5 and 17. And unlike 5 and 17, it's not prime. What are the tests and the advantage? I don't know anything about this. Perhaps it will reconcile me to base 10! In base N, to check to see if a number is divisible by N-1, just add the digits, and if their sum is divisible by N-1, the number itself is. So in base 10, if the sum of the digits of a number add up to 9 or 18 or 27, etc., the number is divisible by 9. If N-1 is a square, a similar divisibility test will work on sqrt(N-1). So if the sum of digits of a number in base 10 is divisible by 3, the number itself is divisible by 3. If you like having that nifty little extra divisibility test, your base must be N^2+1 for some N. So 5, 10 and 17 all work as bases with that feature. Base 12 has easier divisibility tests for more numbers, though. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: States Bent on Collecting Internet Taxes
At 08:48 PM 3/4/2004, you wrote: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2cid=528u=/ap/20040304/ap_on_hi_te/internet_sales_tax_7printer=1 snip Forty-five states require buyers to pay sales taxes on Internet and other out-of-state purchases, though a few, including California and Minnesota, exempt the first few hundred dollars and focus on high-ticket items. Meanwhile, a number of major retailers including Wal-Mart, Toys R Us and Target voluntarily collect state taxes. And some states are working on a streamlined sales tax project that would tax online purchases at the point of sale. Congress would have to enact a law, however, to make such a system nationwide. States with sales tax lines on their tax forms include Alabama, California, Connecticut, Idaho, Indiana, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Massachusetts, Michigan, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Ohio, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Utah, Vermont, Virginia and Wisconsin, according to the Federation of Tax Administrators. Georgia, Hawaii and the District of Columbia have separate forms in their income tax packages. rob Forty five states have sales tax, but they do not require sales tax collection on mail order or internet sales except where a store has a physical location. That's why target and walmart collect taxes on sales to most every state. I'm going to get some information about this. The debate here is to lower the sales tax from 6 to 4%, but tax everything. Currently uncooked food and clothes are exempt. The hue and cry of course is that this will unfairly target the poor. But most studies show that overall the consumer will see lower taxes and with a single tax structure retailers could collect taxes easier. Kevin T. - VRWC Insider trading ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: States Bent on Collecting Internet Taxes
Kevin Tarr wrote: The debate here is to lower the sales tax from 6 to 4%, but tax everything. Currently uncooked food and clothes are exempt. The hue and cry of course is that this will unfairly target the poor. But most studies show that overall the consumer will see lower taxes and with a single tax structure retailers could collect taxes easier. What about dealing with people who are tax-exempt? That was more of a pain than dealing with non-taxable items when I was having to figure out how much sales tax we owed each month when I did that for the company I worked for. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Shrub avoids attacking suspected terrorist mastermind 3 times
At 03:57 PM 3/4/2004 -0600 The Fool wrote: Are you any safer because of this incompetence? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4431601/ It is positive to see that The Fool's opposition to the War in Iraq is now based on the fact that we did not attack Iraq soon enough. Glad to see that you are on board. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Shrub avoids attacking suspected terrorist mastermind 3 times
From: John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 03:57 PM 3/4/2004 -0600 The Fool wrote: Are you any safer because of this incompetence? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4431601/ It is positive to see that The Fool's opposition to the War in Iraq is now based on the fact that we did not attack Iraq soon enough. Glad to see that you are on board. But I've always been pro-war in iraq. I'm just anti-incompetence. The kind of incompetence that has shrubCo _not_ securing and investigating 800 suspected WMD sites (including the 4 known nuclear sites) for months, but instead securing the oil ministry. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Race to the Bottom
Jan Coffey wrote: --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], ritu [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 'Tis just that I can't see *how* India is supposed to be blamed for this and thus, I will ask when someone says that in front of me. The logic is that americans workers tax dollors, hard work building american corporations, and the political environemnt in which those corporations were able to exist, have payed for job expansion in India, therefore the Indian people owe the american worker compensation back. If a theif comes and steals your car and gives it to me, when all is discovered I would have to give the car back. Now, If I knew the car was stolen, and I sell it's parts, then I would be a criminal. Dunno - I still don't get why everyone is so very eager to hate the third party rather than the actual thief which carried out the entire displacement of property. And as for the criminal bit, well, it isn't some shady, underground, fly-by-the-night illegal operation. These contracts follow the laws of two countries and are in tune with the concept of globalisation. You have to understand that what is going on right now is fostering a very negative emotional respons. Oh, I know that. Sometime in March a young American killed himself over this issue. I don't know how many times this has happened but that incident made the headlines here. People don't kill themselves if the issue isn't emotional and once people are driven to that point, bitterness and hate only intensifies. All this I know. I am not justifying that emotional response, only pointing it out, and asking what should be done about it. And I am just asking what these people would like the Indians to do. Not accept the jobs that are being offered? Insist on being paid the salary of their US counterparts? Put aside a part of their paycheck each month and send it to the US? From the out of work american's perspective Indea is steeling our Jobs, and they know it. I have heard representatives from Indean companies say and I quoate, I can hve 200 developers on this toomarow for the price of one of your workers here. You can get rid yourself of these expensive development staff emediatly. How can we not hear this and not get angry and feel like we are being robbed? Oh, there is no way you can not get angry. But I thought value for money was a basic tenet of capitalism and robbery involved coercion. To use your previous example of a car, it is like one mechanic accusing the other of robbery just because the latter offered a lower price and wooed the former's customers away. As far as I can make out, the salient point here is that a choice was offered and that the second mechanic neither used guns/threats/blackmail, nor got into the car and drove it away. About that Indian chap you quoted above, the only way he was telling the truth was if each US developer is paid around USD 60,000 pm. Is that the going rate in the US? Americans, are a ficle people, you see one face now, the one giving, but you might have to deal with the other face eventualy, then one that has had their way of life taken away. Oh, please, nobody here is under any illusions about 'the giving face of the Americans'. We know that we are being paid a pittance by your standards, that the jobs are coming here not out of any concern for us but because it suits the bottom line of these companies and that the minute they find a cheaper alternative, they would relocate the jobs. Which is part of the reason why the Indian govt. has been encouraging people to explore the African and Asian market for these jobs. The other part of the reason being the backlash being felt in US and Europe. What is going on right now is drasticaly shifting the political opinions of those being affected. Outside of work, in the bars and in the resturants, there is also raceism growing. Yep. The NRIs mention it frequently. Consider that it takes many CS majors 5 years (not 4) to get a BS. That is not 5 years of frat parties and spring breaks, it's 5 years of very intense long hours which are physicaly demenishing. Nearly very CS course I took ended with less than 10% of the students who started, and not all at the end passed. Meanwhile the buisnes majors drank and caroused and didn't have to work on projects over spring break. They took easy courses which allowed them time to go to the gym and party every night. Many of these so-clled students were the same ones droping out of CS classes. Now they have conspired with Indea to rob the American Computer Scientist of all their hard work, all the Software Companies we built with 16 hour days while others were working 8, all of the life postponements and dedication, and now, Indea and some frat-boy fat cats come and steel it, say thank you very much for the tax breaks, thank you vey much for doing all the hard work, thank you very much for putting your lives on hold, but we are now going to take
Re: Race to the Bottom
Kevin wrote- The American developers here are probably the most unsocial people in IT. Jan wrote- This may be the case, but I do not believe you are correct when you say unsocial, maybe just social in a different way than many who studied Business instead of Computer Science. But do you believe that these people should not be able to make a good living? Is it your opinion that only ~Social~ people should be allowed into the middle, or upper middle class? It's true, many of the Computer Scientists I know who grew up in the US, and who enjoy Software Engineering, have an alternative social ability. Does that mean that they should only be allowed to work for McDonalds wages? This group of people have found a carrier that affords them the ability to participate in the American Dream, but form the sound of it, you would have them all unemployed, and their jobs all sent over seas to people who will treat you as if you are their master, and work for slave wages. This is wrong on so many levels, I do not even know where to begin. There is a total skill set in any job. How/what social skills someone has may only be limiting when they are contrary to what needs to be done to complete the job (frex within the corporate customer service requirements). In some ways the type of living you want to make is dictated by a match between what you want to do (or do) and the expectations of those you work for. Frex, if you like animals, but don't have great (define as you want, merely for illustrative purposes) social skills, then working with the animals behind the scenes may be a better match than that of an intake person/vet in a local practice. No one is forcing anyone to work at McDonalds, there are many other professions that have suffered cycles of change. Perhaps it is simplistic (since computer stuff is waay slow to stick in my brain), but I seem to recall alot of previous posts on how computer people can never stop learning, it is a trap in many professions to rest on your laurels. Many in health professions have transferred their skills to non-patient care as conditions changed, jobs were cut back, etc. I like the example of toy makers who saw their business go overseas, probably for many of us it is one of the first concrete examples of outsourcing we can practically remember. No one is saying others in other countries to work for slave wages, saving money is a corporate strategy that happens probably more than it doesn't (examples in the next post). Re: not knowing where to start- sometimes we all are too close to something, it may be easier for me to see since in my profession, the changes, fear, cut backs and job losses, were at their worst more than 5 years ago and things are slowly turning around. Dee ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Race to the Bottom
Jan wrote- I wonder what would happen if we started outsourcing the project management, the accounting and the administration, Indian doctors are cheaper, Indian Drugs, Indian lawyers I bet there would be quite a number laws made quite quickly to keep this from happeningoh wait, there already are. This is happening all over, maybe not the way you think, but variations that take money away from people who were trained in a certain career/profession. In medicine there was/is ongoing movement to train someone cheaper to do tasks (I will forgo the debate of skilled interventions vs tasks). Physician extenders are one example, job enrichment for OJT personnel is another, (hiring foreign trained providers was quite the rage for a while, but comparable training/ competency/english speaking quality made this more difficult once quality measures were instituted at state levels.) Probably the most classic example of cycles of highs and lows are nurses. Over my lifetime I have seen approx 3 cycles where nurses were treated to cutbacks, excessive hours, demands and delegation of tasks to others- to the point where many left the profession. Eventually their value was identified again, prices when up and nurses returned to the fray. In therapy professions there has been mounting pressure to delegate tasks to lower wage workers for years. Then, as icing on the cake, the gov't cut back in Medicare several years ago, and workers went to work to find 30% pay cuts, 24 hour decisions to sign modified working contracts, on call shifts, mandatory changes in working hours without negotiation, loss of jobs (I think in some settings/parts of the country there were 20-30% losses). There was major geographical relocation of therapists and assistants, and previously unappealing jobs were filled. Quite a big change from our time in the 80's/90's where PT/OT were one of the most promising vocations in the country, to years with salary cuts (and if you were lucky no salary increases. We are starting to see some return of salaries with cutbacks in those entering the profession and regulations, but granted public safety is probably seen as a bit less negotiable than code (in no way placing value on either, btw). Various professionals see similarities and differences in their paths. We can't stop people from trying to make money, I guess we need to survive professional evolution. I think it sucks if our taxes are paying to help locals lose jobs though. Dee ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Stranger in a Strange Land :-) Re: Tyranny
John wrote- Fine then. Like Tom said, I am just going to have to accept that Brin-L is what it is. I will accept the fact that in the minds of plenty of the Left-Wingers around here it is impossible to be right-wing and have respectability and credibility. That's just how it is then, and I am just going to deal with it. I realize that certain things are hot buttons for all of us, recognizing your own hot buttons is helpful. I am glad you want to accept differences, and sorry others occasionally jab at you. I think you need to trust that people do respect your right to have your positions without ongoing validation. My mom used to say... give people the response they least expect, which may be a variant on don't let others control your reactions/push your buttons. That being said, this must be the 23rd email that people pick on you (ok, I haven't really counted), and it would take a dense brain not to know how you feel. I am not sure how much more change you are going to effect with the same style emails. Dee who could use a button pushing moratorium overall, but heck I have been quiet and not as active a member as I could be ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
