Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
Well, ask and ye shall receieve. There are three major threads of analysis here, the last two of which are intertwined and I'm vaguely thinking about turning into something a little more serious. Anyways, they are: 1. A few quick thoughts on the plot 2. Some more serious thoughts on the moral messages and ideas I think Rowling is trying to convey (and why they make me far more impressed by her writing than I was before reading this one) 3. A few brief thoughts on the extent to which Rowling is engaging in - at least to a small extent - some political allegory So, spoilers ho! 1. The plot of this book was actually very sparse. In terms of the main plot - the war - what happened? Three chief events. Dumbledore is killed. Snape is revealed. We learn what Harry will have to do to defeat Voldemort. That's all I can think of. Each of these is important, of course, but it's really not much for a 652 page book. The big shock was not Dumbledore dying, of course - it's been obvious that that had to happen at the end of Book Six since, well, Book 1, probably. What is a huge shock, of course, is that _Snape_ would be the one who murders him. I am quite impressed by Rowling's skill in setting this up. As in each of her other books, she plays absolutely fair with the reader. We had enough information to figure out (before Harry does) what Malfoy was doing, for example - although I doubt many people will. But in each book Rowling has carefully crafted a structure - we suspect Snape, we hate Snape, we discover that Snape is actually a good guy. By this book, of course, I was so used to that structure that I completely failed to suspect Snape. So when Snape appeared at the last minute - I expected him to rescuce Dumbledore (somehow) or perhaps even die in glorious but futile defense of him. I certainly didn't expect the murder. Yet again, here - Rowling actually provides us with a Voldemort-approved explanation for his behavior, and we knew (from Harry's Occlumency lessons) that Snape was a half-blood - although I don't recall _anyone_ suggesting Snape as the Half-Blood Prince, and it certainly didn't occur to me while I was reading. The focus was clearly (as it says on the dust jacket flap, of all things) on the home front. We got to see relationships further develop at Hogswarts - in a highly amusing and enjoyable fashion, of course. We get to see Harry mature a great deal. We get to see the alliances and relationships that will be crucial to the final confrontation finally fall into place. All of this is important, but no exactly eventful. The book is successful, I think, largely because at this point we have so much invested in the characters that I (at least) really do find myself caring about what happens to them - even their relationships, not just the war effort. Rowling has earned our (or at least my) affection enough that I'm willing to read the book just to spend time with her characters, even if not a lot happens. If you don't feel that way about them (and you don't care about the stuff I'll write about in my next two points), you probably won't like the book nearly as much as I did. So, what does this say for the final book? Well, I'm sure that Harry will, in fact, return to Hogwarts, despite what he says at the conclusion. I presume that McGonagall will take over permanently as Headmaster - which implies a new head for Gryffindor and (of course) Slytherin. Malfoy will not be back - and Hogwarts without Malfoy and Snape doesn't have much potential for dramatic conflict, so I'm guessing that while Harry will be there, not that much of the plot will actually take place there. I bet he does end up taking his NEWTS, though. One wonders what Rowling would do to the SATs. 2. OK - this is really the part of the book I find most interesting. The extent to which these books are, in a sense, didactic is quite remarkable to me, and I really admire both Rowling's skill and her principles. There are a few scenes in particular that, to me, send this message. But let's set the context a little bit. In the earlier books Harry was, in general, a poor, downtrodden kid. Abused by his parents, often an outcast at school, not all that successful with girls (when it became important) and so on. One message of the earlier books was thus a powerful one sent to readers - many of whom (before the books took off) would, of course, fall into that category. That's a powerful and important message, and I appreciate Rowling doing it. But that's a routine message in children's literature. How many kids books _don't_ focus on the downtrodden outcast who ends up being a hero? It's not exactly rare. In this book, however, the situation is different - and here, in a real sense, I am more impressed. Now, Harry is the king of Hogwarts. A hero to most of his peers, adored by girls, the favorite of most of the teachers, captain of the Quidditch team. Harry isn't the downtrodden
Re: Harry Potter - no actual spoiler, just a complaint
At 12:34 AM Sunday 7/17/2005, Julia Thompson wrote: Ronn!Blankenship wrote: At 11:13 PM Saturday 7/16/2005, Gautam Mukunda wrote: --- Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The sight/site switch? Jumps off the page, doesn't it? Yes it does, expletive! At least, at me! Julia Ah, now I see it :-) Good thing she cited it, huh? Homophony Maru Yep. I might have just been spoiling for a complaint, though, having earlier spotted two problems in headlines in my Saturday paper: A evening's love affair with Etta that Austin won't soon forget and Motorist drowns fleeing troopers The second one I read the way it hadn't been intended at first, and it was confusing for some percentage of a second Paramedics Help Dog Bite Victim Maru -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Half-Blood Prince (No spoilers)
Maru Dubshinki wrote: How about some discussion of the book? I'm pretty happy with this one; for all the exposition and mild climax, I've always been slightly miffed that all the pre-existing bits of alchemy and magic and old fairy tales and such that Rowling borrowed from were not really extended or improved- so you can imagine how happy I was when she borrowed an old fairy tale element, improved it, and made it exactly what was needed for a credible strategy for you-know-who (this is no spoilers, right?) On another note, all the backstory and revelations in this slow-moving installment have made the previous novels considerably deeper, IMO. Anyone else think so? -- Please, discuss away, but leave spoiler space for those of us who have yet to read it. George A ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter - no actual spoiler, just a complaint
At 09:45 PM Saturday 7/16/2005, Max Battcher wrote: Julia Thompson wrote: THERE IS A MISTAKE ON PAGE 10! At least in the US edition. Was Gautam reading too fast to catch it? :) Julia who is on page 10 The sight/site switch? Jumps off the page, doesn't it? Although I'm of the opinion that book editors are getting sloppier and sloppier lately. If I had cataloged all of the recent mistakes that had jumped out at me from big name books I think I might have a very long list. I wish I got paid every time I discovered an editing mistake. Perhaps you could apply for the job of one of those who *are* paid for that task who are so obviously not earning their pay . . . :P Typo Negative Maru -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Uplift locations and dates. Hey, Alberto?
Vilyehm asked: What number galaxy is it for: Kithrup Gubru home planet Synthian home planet Thennanin home planet Information not available. Now, Streaker is gone for three years. The siege of Earth was a little over two years. That's possible. I still don't have a fix on its date. When did the Thennanin arrive, and would it be logical that there was a short lifting of the siege? I don't know the dynamics of hyperspace sieges :-) Dates? I seem to get two different dates from looking in two different places on the web. The Web has wrong information, based on wrong dates from the 1st edition of GURPS Uplift. The 2nd edition and the Contacting Aliens book have more accurate dates. FWIW: 2192: Bureaucracy Ends 2212: Contact with the Tymbrimi 2246: Sundiver incident [*] 2489: Streaker in Kithrup and invasion of Garth [**] 2490: Gubru expelled from Garth [***] 2491 or 2492: Streaker in Jijo 2492: Streaker comes back to Earth Of couse, I kept on updating things, I could just point you to... http://www.geocities.com/albmont/brin.htm ... but that timeline is horribly wrong. Alberto Monteiro [*] explicit year mentioned in the book!] [**] most references get it wrong, ignoring the fact that while Uplift War lasts about 1 year, Startide Rising takes about a month [the core action, from Chapter 1 to Chapter 124, lasts even less], and is almost completely located inside UW [***] probably ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Bad editing (was Re: Harry Potter - no actual spoiler, just a complaint)
Julia Thompson wrote: The sight/site switch? Jumps off the page, doesn't it? Yes it does, expletive! At least, at me! Yes it did. Glaring as heck, and another reason why I think spell-checker can make folks lazy. I had to fix a number of those when I was prepping the transcript for the book I told you about in my LJ. Which, BTW, I hope you downloaded for your friend, Julia. Otherwise, I might be forced to make the sad face. :) Jim Editing gaffes Maru ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
BSG in today's NYT
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/17/magazine/17GALACTICA.html?8hpib ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
Gautam Mukunda wrote: 1. A few quick thoughts on the plot 2. Some more serious thoughts on the moral messages and ideas I think Rowling is trying to convey (and why they make me far more impressed by her writing than I was before reading this one) 3. A few brief thoughts on the extent to which Rowling is engaging in - at least to a small extent - some political allegory S P O I L E R S P A C E Snape is revealed. Is he? I think Ms. Rowling *still* left enough wiggle room for Severus not to be the bad guy. Yes, he did kill Dumbledore, but there are signs both in that scene and in Harry's pursuit of him that suggest there's more to it than Snape is on the Dark Side. For example, Dumbledore had to know he had no chance of surviving his encounted with four Death Eaters, weakened as he was by his (as it turned out, fruitless) pursuit of Voldemort's horcrux. Was his pleading to Snape actually a desire to save the lives of Malfoy and his family, and of Snape himself, rather than him hoping that he hadn't been wrong about Snape all along? Of course, on the flip side of that is how Dumbledore repeatedly insists that his few mistakes are inevitably enormous ones. Which only furthers the ambiguity, but I like that Ms. Rowling is trying to keep us guessing. :) Well, I'm sure that Harry will, in fact, return to Hogwarts, despite what he says at the conclusion. I hope you are right. I think a quest for the horcruxes book would be doing a disservice to the many secondary characters she's created, especially after giving Neville and Luna (two fan favorites from what I've seen) such short shrift this time around. In this book, however, the situation is different - and here, in a real sense, I am more impressed. Now, Harry is the king of Hogwarts. A hero to most of his peers, adored by girls, the favorite of most of the teachers, captain of the Quidditch team. Harry isn't the downtrodden outcast. He's the elite. What does he do? He (in my single favorite moment of the book) invites Luna Lovegood to a prestigious party. Now that the books are being read by everyone, I think Rowling is taking advantage of this popularity to send a new, much rarer message. Now, knowing that the kings of the school will also be reading her books, I think Rowling is trying to teach _them_ something. This is how you should behave. You reach out to the poor kids, the unpopular kids. That's not a common message, because most kids lit doesn't have the popular kids as the heroes. That's a very interesting analysis, Gautum. It's one heck of a message to send, I agree, and it's the kind of quality of character I hope my own children will have. I see it in my son; he hates for anyone, even the weird kids, to feel left out, despite the fact that he has some quality about him that makes almost everyone want to be his friend. I can only hope that he keeps that as he gets older. Character is, I have always thought, the product of choice. You are who you choose to be. Absolutely. I remember reading a saying that said something along the lines of Character is the choice you make when no one is watching. In the course of the books, Harry tries very hard to make the right choices. And even when they are the wrong choices, he makes them for the right reasons. I could not imagine a better set of messages than the dual ones of rejecting bigotry and accepting differences while also focusing on the importnace of recognizing evil and fighting it when you see it. Nor could I. Though Rowling doesn't seem to mind the wizards' anti-Muggle prejudices as much as their prejudices against other magical creatures. Yes, most wizards reject the term Mudblood, et. al., but most still look down on the non-magical as your average person on the street looks down at a mentally retarded person. That is one thing that's always bothered me a trifle about her books, frankly. I truly enjoyed your analysis, Gautum. Thanks for taking the time to post it. Jim When's book seven coming out? Maru ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter - no actual spoiler, just a complaint
Ronn!Blankenship wrote: At 09:45 PM Saturday 7/16/2005, Max Battcher wrote: Julia Thompson wrote: THERE IS A MISTAKE ON PAGE 10! At least in the US edition. Was Gautam reading too fast to catch it? :) Julia who is on page 10 The sight/site switch? Jumps off the page, doesn't it? Although I'm of the opinion that book editors are getting sloppier and sloppier lately. If I had cataloged all of the recent mistakes that had jumped out at me from big name books I think I might have a very long list. I wish I got paid every time I discovered an editing mistake. Perhaps you could apply for the job of one of those who *are* paid for that task who are so obviously not earning their pay . . . :P Typo Negative Maru Well, if I had a lot more time for that sort of thing, I was sort of offered a job for that sort of thing. (I.e., I met the description of who they were looking for, and it was a friend putting the word out for his employer -- but I don't want to take on anything like that for another 2 or 3 years.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bad editing (was Re: Harry Potter - no actual spoiler, just a complaint)
Jim Sharkey wrote: Julia Thompson wrote: The sight/site switch? Jumps off the page, doesn't it? Yes it does, expletive! At least, at me! Yes it did. Glaring as heck, and another reason why I think spell-checker can make folks lazy. I had to fix a number of those when I was prepping the transcript for the book I told you about in my LJ. Which, BTW, I hope you downloaded for your friend, Julia. Otherwise, I might be forced to make the sad face. :) I hadn't yet. I'd been all set to do so, and then things started heading south in baskets carried by hand Thank you for the reminder! Julia and we're going to find out Real Soon Now if I actually *fixed* the plumbing emergency this morning, or if we're going to have to call a professional (and not run the dishwasher until the professional has taken care of the problem) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Uplift locations and dates. Hey, Alberto?
In a message dated 7/17/2005 6:52:49 AM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Vilyehm asked: What number galaxy is it for: Kithrup Gubru home planet Synthian home planet Thennanin home planet Information not available. Then it'll be fun to have one from each. What was called Wazoon Two-step is now titled Uplift Respite, as a Gubru joke now turns deadly serious. Now, Streaker is gone for three years. The siege of Earth was a little over two years. That's possible. I still don't have a fix on its date. Directly from the last chapters of Heaven's Reach. When did the Thennanin arrive, and would it be logical that there was a short lifting of the siege? I don't know the dynamics of hyperspace sieges :-) Then I'll do the same as the good Dr. Brin. Just make it up and use it cuz it fits. Dates? I seem to get two different dates from looking in two different places on the web. The Web has wrong information, based on wrong dates from the 1st edition of GURPS Uplift. The 2nd edition and the Contacting Aliens book have more accurate dates. So I'll insert as needed here: FWIW: 2192: Bureaucracy Ends 2212: Contact with the Tymbrimi 2246: Sundiver incident [*] 2489: Streaker in Kithrup and invasion of Garth [**] 2490: Gubru expelled from Garth [***] 2490 December. Thennanin fleet arrives Sol System. Siege lifted as enemies 'bug out' until they know the new score. 2491 January. Uplift Respite. Krondesfire purchased from Synthian scrap dealer. Sealed up for security reasons. Put in storage until it can safely be transported to Earth. 2491 February. Siege renewed. 2491 or 2492: Streaker in Jijo 2492: Streaker comes back to Earth and then... 2493 Alvin's end tale. 2493 + one day. Alvin gets his first royalty check for his book. And by pure conjecture based upon Brin going. @#%^#$ How'd you guess? 2494 Early Siege of Earth lifted for very obvious reasons. 2494 Krondesfire comes to LaPaz. Gillian sees first physical proof that Tom made it off of Kithrup. And after that, who knows? Four years. Brin is going to have to figure out how to keep the skiff from being seen for at least four years. Of couse, I kept on updating things, I could just point you to... http://www.geocities.com/albmont/brin.htm ... but that timeline is horribly wrong. Which I looked at. Alberto Monteiro [*] explicit year mentioned in the book!] [**] most references get it wrong, ignoring the fact that while Uplift War lasts about 1 year, Startide Rising takes about a month [the core action, from Chapter 1 to Chapter 124, lasts even less], and is almost completely located inside UW [***] probably Good enough for me. Vilyehm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
My RPG book (was Re: Bad editing)
Julia Thompson wrote: Jim Sharkey wrote: I had to fix a number of those when I was prepping the transcript for the book I told you about in my LJ. Which, BTW, I hope you downloaded for your friend, Julia. Otherwise, I might be forced to make the sad face. :) I hadn't yet. I'd been all set to do so, and then things started heading south in baskets carried by hand Thank you for the reminder! I hope things are better now. You're welcome for the reminder. It looks like it's selling well enough that they may do a print version near year-end, but I'm not going to put too many eggs in that basket until I actually have a copy in my hand. On the bright side, it looks like I'm going to get paid for the work after all, which I had given up on. Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
- Original Message - From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 1:07 AM Subject: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3 So, spoilers ho! 1. The plot of this book was actually very sparse. In terms of the main plot - the war - what happened? Three chief events. Dumbledore is killed. Snape is revealed. We learn what Harry will have to do to defeat Voldemort. That's all I can think of. Each of these is important, of course, but it's really not much for a 652 page book. I'll bet against #2. Say first time we meet after book 7, the loser buys drinks? There are some indications that things are more complicated than we think. From memory after reading yesterday, 1) I see a parallel between the arguement between Snapes and Dumbledore and the arguement between Potter and Dumbledore. Dumbledore made Harry promise to do what he said, no matter what the consequences were to Dumbledore. Harry lied to Dumbledore about what he was drinking towards the end, knowing full well he could be killing him. My guess is that Dumbledore had some guess of the chances of he, Potter, and the Death Eaters being together. He would have given Snape an if this happened, do this order. Because Snape did it, Malfoy still hasn't killed anyone. The look on Snapes' face is a clue I think. His reaction to being called a coward is another. I think it would be a wonderful twist if Snape, who has now lost all honor, actually did it because he promised Dumbledore that he wouldand because it was necessary for Harry to succeed. There is one more clue concerning this, Dumbledore knows something about Snape that no-one else does. He was not fooled by Tom Riddle, and I don't think he was fooled by Snape. 2. OK - this is really the part of the book I find most interesting. The extent to which these books are, in a sense, didactic is quite remarkable to me, and I really admire both Rowling's skill and her principles. There are a few scenes in particular that, to me, send this message. But let's set the context a little bit. In the earlier books Harry was, in general, a poor, downtrodden kid. I don't think so. He is _the_ Harry Potter almost from the beginning. He is a favorite of the headmaster, of many of the teachers, and is a rare first year Seeker, who is remarkedly good at it, too. He is proclaimed a hero at the end of the first book, and wins glory for his house with his actions. Only Snape, who distrusts the family, and Malfoy and his henchmen are against him. Further, Malfoy is against him because he turned down an invitation to join him very publically. Harry was sticking by ordinary people (a poorer wizzard family and a Mudblood from the the very beginning. Abused by his parents (aunt and uncle, which is important I think) often an outcast at school, When was he an outcast? He had two great friends, he was a key player on _the_ sports team, etc. It wasn't until book 4 5 that people in general started questioning him because he said that You-Know-Who was back and that he fought him. not all that successful with girls (when it became important) and so on. I think the lack of success with girls was not atypical for a 15 year old boy. :-) One message of the earlier books was thus a powerful one sent to readers - many of whom (before the books took off) would, of course, fall into that category. That's a powerful and important message, and I appreciate Rowling doing it. But that's a routine message in children's literature. How many kids books _don't_ focus on the downtrodden outcast who ends up being a hero? It's not exactly rare. I agree that spans the first part of the first bookeven the first book. But, by the second book, being famous was getting to be a problem, IIRC. I think that Rowling is good in that she started playing variations on this familiar story rather early. Harry _chose_ to be a hero, as Snape and Voldemort choose to be evil. In emphasizing the centrality of choice, Rowling says something to all her readers. Harry isn't special because of a prophecy or destiny. He is special because of the choices he makes - and you too can make choices. I agree that, after setting up a classic prince in hiding scenario, Rowling changes it into what you saidwhich is well done. I think that our disagreement on Snape is tied into the nuances of the moral message we think Rowling is teaching. If Snape turns out to be a hero in the end, I think that it will tied up with a key lesson that Harry has to learn. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
- Original Message - From: Jim Sharkey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 10:12 AM Subject: RE: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3 Gautam Mukunda wrote: 1. A few quick thoughts on the plot 2. Some more serious thoughts on the moral messages and ideas I think Rowling is trying to convey (and why they make me far more impressed by her writing than I was before reading this one) 3. A few brief thoughts on the extent to which Rowling is engaging in - at least to a small extent - some political allegory S P O I L E R S P A C E Nor could I. Though Rowling doesn't seem to mind the wizards' anti-Muggle prejudices as much as their prejudices against other magical creatures. Yes, most wizards reject the term Mudblood, et. al., but most still look down on the non-magical as your average person on the street looks down at a mentally retarded person. That is one thing that's always bothered me a trifle about her books, frankly. But, one of the three main characters is a Mudblood. Three critical characters are half-breeds. The pure blood ancestors of Tom Riddle were wizzard trash. I think she was just being subtle about this, not ignoring it. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bad editing (was Re: Harry Potter - no actual spoiler, just a complaint)
At 11:23 AM Sunday 7/17/2005, Julia Thompson wrote: Jim Sharkey wrote: Julia Thompson wrote: The sight/site switch? Jumps off the page, doesn't it? Yes it does, expletive! At least, at me! Yes it did. Glaring as heck, and another reason why I think spell-checker can make folks lazy. I had to fix a number of those when I was prepping the transcript for the book I told you about in my LJ. Which, BTW, I hope you downloaded for your friend, Julia. Otherwise, I might be forced to make the sad face. :) I hadn't yet. I'd been all set to do so, and then things started heading south in baskets carried by hand Thank you for the reminder! Julia and we're going to find out Real Soon Now if I actually *fixed* the plumbing emergency this morning, or if we're going to have to call a professional (and not run the dishwasher until the professional has taken care of the problem) Can you swim? -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bad editing (was Re: Harry Potter - no actual spoiler, just a complaint)
Ronn!Blankenship wrote: At 11:23 AM Sunday 7/17/2005, Julia Thompson wrote: Jim Sharkey wrote: Julia Thompson wrote: The sight/site switch? Jumps off the page, doesn't it? Yes it does, expletive! At least, at me! Yes it did. Glaring as heck, and another reason why I think spell-checker can make folks lazy. I had to fix a number of those when I was prepping the transcript for the book I told you about in my LJ. Which, BTW, I hope you downloaded for your friend, Julia. Otherwise, I might be forced to make the sad face. :) I hadn't yet. I'd been all set to do so, and then things started heading south in baskets carried by hand Thank you for the reminder! Julia and we're going to find out Real Soon Now if I actually *fixed* the plumbing emergency this morning, or if we're going to have to call a professional (and not run the dishwasher until the professional has taken care of the problem) Can you swim? I can. The stuff on the floor of the pantry can't, though, and for some reason if there's a leak in the kitchen, downhill means into the pantry. :P My fix seems to have worked. Dishwasher ran and nothing failed. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Uplift locations and dates. Hey, Alberto?
In a message dated 7/17/2005 2:58:49 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [BTW: what crappy mailer did you use? It's almost impossible to know what was written by me and your replies :-/] AOL, of course. Still free. No charge. Still brought to me by Compaq, as proudly proclaimed on the sign-on screen. For four years now. there is a strong possibility that UW Chapter 81 takes place in 2489-November. That would make things easier. The first of the Thennanin fleet arriving December 2489 The two and a half year siege could then be continuous after the Thennanin arrive. Sounds good to me. Now, how to get the Gubru on that first Thennanin ship. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Twist of Face, anyone?
At 5,500 words, and having gone through the Critters story review process, does anyone want to read and review it? Anyone? Anyone who finished their Potter book already? And THIS time I have it in .doc format. Funny thing that change to MS Word 2002. Even it has given up on .wps Vilyehm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
--- Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] So, spoilers ho! 1. The plot of this book was actually very sparse. In terms of the main plot - the war - what happened? Three chief events. Dumbledore is killed. Snape is revealed. We learn what Harry will have to do to defeat Voldemort. That's all I can think of. Each of these is important, of course, but it's really not much for a 652 page book. I'll bet against #2. Say first time we meet after book 7, the loser buys drinks? There are some indications that things are more complicated than we think. From memory after reading yesterday, Dan hasn't completed his thought here, unfortunately. Jim made the same point (Hi Jim! I deleted your post by accident, or I would be responding to it first). Thinking about it a little more after both your posts, I think you're both right. This probably was a setup by Rowling - something that takes particular strength, I think, from the fact that she has stated that she thinks of this book and the 7th one as really a single, longer book, in which case she'd be maintaining her pattern if we're supposed to be surprised by Snape's innocence at the end. That being said, if it turns out that way, I'll be both happy with Rowling (because it would be a little annoying if Harry was right all along about Snape) and disappointed (because given the way it was set up, it seems to me that Snape could have rescued Dumbledore if he wanted to - he had the opportuntity to take all four Death Eaters by surprise from behind, and we know that Snape is an exceptionally dangerous combatant). But I'll take your bet, Dan, even though I think you'll probably win it :-) I think there's one other point that further strengthens this argument. We know that Harry's father saved Snape's life, we know that a powerful bond is formed when a wizard saves another wizard's life, and we know that Snape repayed James by being indirectly responsible for his murder. What happened to that debt? It has to have been passed along to Harry, and knowing that, it seems unlikely to me that Snape can really have turned. 2. OK - this is really the part of the book I find most interesting. The extent to which these books are, in a sense, didactic is quite remarkable to me, and I really admire both Rowling's skill and her principles. There are a few scenes in particular that, to me, send this message. But let's set the context a little bit. In the earlier books Harry was, in general, a poor, downtrodden kid. I don't think so. He is _the_ Harry Potter almost from the beginning. He is a favorite of the headmaster, of many of the teachers, and is a rare first year Seeker, who is remarkedly good at it, too. He is proclaimed a hero at the end of the first book, and wins glory for his house with his actions. Only Snape, who distrusts the family, and Malfoy and his henchmen are against him. Further, Malfoy is against him because he turned down an invitation to join him very publically. Harry was sticking by ordinary people (a poorer wizzard family and a Mudblood from the the very beginning. That's true, but I think it understates the power of the scenes where Harry is at the Dursley's. There he's clearly the oppressed one, and Rowling (significantly, until this book) is careful to give us a good long taste of what it's like for Harry to live there. Similarly, it may be true that only Snape is against him - but the other teachers really do little to help him, while Snape does a great deal to harm him. So I think it's true that Harry stuck by ordinary people from the beginning - but it's different to do so when your primary identification is as one of the downtrodden, and another when you're the elite. When was he an outcast? He had two great friends, he was a key player on _the_ sports team, etc. It wasn't until book 4 5 that people in general started questioning him because he said that You-Know-Who was back and that he fought him. I think that it's true that he was only an outcast at Hogwarts for some periods. But he was an outcast for _the first 11 years of his life_. And Rowling is careful to make that status clear in all of the earlier books. One of the striking things about the books, really, is how _angry_ they are. You get the feeling that Rowling works herself up into a howling rage at the British class system - something she is able to do despite being a billionaire. That was the biggest insight to come out of Slate's Book Clubs on Harry Potter, I think. I agree that, after setting up a classic prince in hiding scenario, Rowling changes it into what you saidwhich is well done. I think that our disagreement on Snape is tied into the nuances of the moral message we think Rowling is teaching. If Snape turns out to be a hero in the end, I think that it will tied up with a key lesson that
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
Gautam Mukunda wrote: One of the striking things about the books, really, is how _angry_ they are. You get the feeling that Rowling works herself up into a howling rage at the British class system - something she is able to do despite being a billionaire. I believe she was all but homeless shortly before HPtPS sold, however. That may go a long way to explaining things. Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Evolution in action?
Chinese elephants are losing their tusks: http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=scienceNewsstoryid=2005-07-17T030544Z_01_N16192796_RTRIDST_0_SCIENCE-ENVIRONMENT-CHINA- ELEPHANTS-DC.XML OR http://tinyurl.com/7lmtd Jim What? More than one post in a week? Inconceivable!! Maru ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: BSG in today's NYT
On 17 Jul 2005, at 3:16 pm, Ronn!Blankenship wrote: http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/17/magazine/17GALACTICA.html?8hpib Ronald D Moore also does a podcast commentary for each episode. You can subscribe to these using iTunes or download them at http:// www.scifi.com/battlestar/downloads/podcast/ These are like the commentaries that you get on DVDs and you just play them along with your recording of the episode (after you've watched it!). There are a few (slight) spoilers revealed in the 2x01 podcast so you might want to save them up until later in the season. There are also podcasts of commentaries for eps 1x09 through 1x13 which aren't on the region 2 DVD set of season 1. And 2x01 - great episode! S2 is off to a great start. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
Gautam Mukunda wrote: The big shock was not Dumbledore dying, of course - it's been obvious that that had to happen at the end of Book Six since, well, Book 1, probably. What is a huge shock, of course, is that _Snape_ would be the one who murders him. I am quite impressed by Rowling's skill in setting this up. As in each of her other books, she plays absolutely fair with the reader. We had enough information to figure out (before Harry does) what Malfoy was doing, for example - although I doubt many people will. But in each book Rowling has carefully crafted a structure - we suspect Snape, we hate Snape, we discover that Snape is actually a good guy. By this book, of course, I was so used to that structure that I completely failed to suspect Snape. So when Snape appeared at the last minute - I expected him to rescuce Dumbledore (somehow) or perhaps even die in glorious but futile defense of him. I certainly didn't expect the murder. Yet again, here - Rowling actually provides us with a Voldemort-approved explanation for his behavior, and we knew (from Harry's Occlumency lessons) that Snape was a half-blood - although I don't recall _anyone_ suggesting Snape as the Half-Blood Prince, and it certainly didn't occur to me while I was reading. Very enjoyable analysis, Gautam. The plot was defintely slower than usual because of all the revelations/memories/ backstory (which, as I said, improve the previous ones. A dab bit of retconning.). But I must quibble with one bit: How on earth can you claim that we could've figured out Malfoy's plot? We knew that there was a plot, yes, and that it would involve smuggling past the security (here's an interesting and timely parallel: for all the endless cameras and paranoid signs I saw in London, the bombers *still* got through handily, just as Malfoy and the Deatheaters did with the endless reams of security 'round Hogwarts.), and that two large objects would be involved, but we had no information suggesting that the pair of objects would be the key to circumvention. Even stretching Harry's observation that the security would ignore poison in a bottle doesn't lead us to all of Malfoy's plot, and most definitely not to a pair of space-twisting chests or whatevers as the mechanism, esp. a pair of chests which have never been mentioned before (IMO... I could have missed a reference or two. Correct me here if I'm wrong please.) And I felt very annoyed when the Prince turned out to be Snape rather than Voldemort. I feel a little cheated at such dishonesty- one expected the Prince to be actually a prince, no? ~Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3
- Original Message - From: Maru Dubshinki [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Sunday, July 17, 2005 10:57 PM Subject: Re: Harry Potter Discussion (Spoilers!!!) L3 Spoiler Space Returned And I felt very annoyed when the Prince turned out to be Snape rather than Voldemort. I feel a little cheated at such dishonesty- one expected the Prince to be actually a prince, no? I knew from the very start that Voldermort was not the Prince. There was a big clue before the book came out. (Rowling said he wasn't.) :-) Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
