Re: Lead (was: Resending: Malaria in the world)
Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro wrote: Deborah Harrell wrote: snip The possible link between crime and lead levels is intriguing; articles on lead's harmful effects particularly WRT children have been posted previously... I am curious about this (lead tetraethyl) - crime link. Brazil was one of the first countries to ban lead (because of ethanol, whose octane rating is high), and we don't have nice numbers on crime. It was a paragraph from the posted article I was commenting on - I didn't actually do any digging myself. http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=932 ...The specific harms done by environmental lead are difficult to quantify. It is known that children are much more apt to absorb the neurotoxic metal than adults, and it is suspected to have stricken many children with behavior problems, learning difficulties, hyperactivity, and breathing complications. Even more troubling, a number of recent studies have shown a strong correlation between atmospheric lead levels and crime rates. A study published in the peer-reviewed journal Environmental Research, which used data spanning more than fifty years, reported a very strong association between the exposure of young children to lead, and crime rates twenty years later when they became young adults. This correlation holds true for a wide variety of locales, social conditions, and models of government. The sharp decline in US crime rates which began in the early 1990s dovetails perfectly with the reduction of leaded gasoline in the early 1970s; and other countries which followed suit saw similar declines, also delayed by twenty years. It seems that the lawmakers who claim credit for crime-reducing legislation during that time are probably misplacing their congratulations. In another study, Pittsburgh University researchers found that juvenile delinquents had lead levels four times higher on average than law-abiding adolescents... There have been several studies that show decreased IQ with even very low levels of lead in children; IIRC it was in the 2-4ug/dl range, with the grosser effects of lead poisoning manifesting at greater than ~40ug/dl. This is the Medline for laypersons page: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002473.htm ...Over time, even low levels of lead exposure can harm a child's mental development. The possible health problems get worse as the level of lead in the blood gets higher. Possible complications include: Reduced IQ Slowed body growth Hearing problems Behavior or attention problems Failure at school Kidney damage A more detailed article from the Mayo Clinic: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/lead-poisoning/FL00068 ...Lead levels in the blood are measured in micrograms per deciliter (mcg/dL). An unsafe level is 10 mcg/dL or higher a guideline set by the CDC. This was set in 1991; the articles I cited some years ago about subtle effects at very low levels were from the late nineties to early 21st, IIRC. http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1993/5/93.05.06.x.html#r [Has the 1991 CDC guidelines in addition to even more detail on lead poisoning and prevention.] I'm short on time today, but if you like I will see what PubMed has on crime/lead exposure, if anything. Debbi Colonel Mustard In The Library With The Lead Pipe Maru Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
keystick! Re: Lead
Ah! Darn heavy finger! Sorry... :P Debbi It Never Did Go To My Draft File Maru Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lead (was: Resending: Malaria in the world)
Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro wrote: Deborah Harrell wrote: snip The possible link between crime and lead levels is intriguing; articles on lead's harmful effects particularly WRT children have been posted previously... I am curious about this (lead tetraethyl) - crime link. Brazil was one of the first countries to ban lead (because of ethanol, whose octane rating is high), and we don't have nice numbers on crime. It was a paragraph from the posted article I was commenting on - I didn't actually do any digging myself. http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=932 ...The specific harms done by environmental lead are difficult to quantify. It is known that children are much more apt to absorb the neurotoxic metal than adults, and it is suspected to have stricken many children with behavior problems, learning difficulties, hyperactivity, and breathing complications. Even more troubling, a number of recent studies have shown a strong correlation between atmospheric lead levels and crime rates. A study published in the peer-reviewed journal Environmental Research, which used data spanning more than fifty years, reported a very strong association between the exposure of young children to lead, and crime rates twenty years later when they became young adults. This correlation holds true for a wide variety of locales, social conditions, and models of government. The sharp decline in US crime rates which began in the early 1990s dovetails perfectly with the reduction of leaded gasoline in the early 1970s; and other countries which followed suit saw similar declines, also delayed by twenty years. It seems that the lawmakers who claim credit for crime-reducing legislation during that time are probably misplacing their congratulations. In another study, Pittsburgh University researchers found that juvenile delinquents had lead levels four times higher on average than law-abiding adolescents... There have been several studies that show decreased IQ with even very low levels of lead in children; IIRC it was in the 2-4ug/dl range, with the grosser effects of lead poisoning manifesting at greater than ~40ug/dl. This is the Medline for laypersons page: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002473.htm ...Over time, even low levels of lead exposure can harm a child's mental development. The possible health problems get worse as the level of lead in the blood gets higher. Possible complications include: Reduced IQ Slowed body growth Hearing problems Behavior or attention problems Failure at school Kidney damage A more detailed article from the Mayo Clinic: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/lead-poisoning/FL00068 ...Lead levels in the blood are measured in micrograms per deciliter (mcg/dL). An unsafe level is 10 mcg/dL or higher a guideline set by the CDC. This was set in 1991; the articles I cited some years ago about subtle effects at very low levels were from the late nineties to early 21st, IIRC. http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1993/5/93.05.06.x.html#r [Has the 1991 CDC guidelines in addition to even more detail on lead poisoning and prevention.] I'm short on time today, but if you like I will see what PubMed has on crime/lead exposure, if anything. Debbi Colonel Mustard In The Library With The Lead Pipe Maru Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lead (was: Resending: Malaria in the world)
Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro wrote: Deborah Harrell wrote: snip The possible link between crime and lead levels is intriguing; articles on lead's harmful effects particularly WRT children have been posted previously... I am curious about this (lead tetraethyl) - crime link. Brazil was one of the first countries to ban lead (because of ethanol, whose octane rating is high), and we don't have nice numbers on crime. It was a paragraph from the posted article I was commenting on - I didn't actually do any digging myself. http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=932 ...The specific harms done by environmental lead are difficult to quantify. It is known that children are much more apt to absorb the neurotoxic metal than adults, and it is suspected to have stricken many children with behavior problems, learning difficulties, hyperactivity, and breathing complications. Even more troubling, a number of recent studies have shown a strong correlation between atmospheric lead levels and crime rates. A study published in the peer-reviewed journal Environmental Research, which used data spanning more than fifty years, reported a very strong association between the exposure of young children to lead, and crime rates twenty years later when they became young adults. This correlation holds true for a wide variety of locales, social conditions, and models of government. The sharp decline in US crime rates which began in the early 1990s dovetails perfectly with the reduction of leaded gasoline in the early 1970s; and other countries which followed suit saw similar declines, also delayed by twenty years. It seems that the lawmakers who claim credit for crime-reducing legislation during that time are probably misplacing their congratulations. In another study, Pittsburgh University researchers found that juvenile delinquents had lead levels four times higher on average than law-abiding adolescents... There have been several studies that show decreased IQ with even very low levels of lead in children; IIRC it was in the 2-4ug/dl range, with the grosser effects of lead poisoning manifesting at greater than ~40ug/dl. This is the Medline for laypersons page: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002473.htm ...Over time, even low levels of lead exposure can harm a child's mental development. The possible health problems get worse as the level of lead in the blood gets higher. Possible complications include: Reduced IQ Slowed body growth Hearing problems Behavior or attention problems Failure at school Kidney damage A more detailed article from the Mayo Clinic: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/lead-poisoning/FL00068 ...Lead levels in the blood are measured in micrograms per deciliter (mcg/dL). An unsafe level is 10 mcg/dL or higher a guideline set by the CDC. This was set in 1991; the articles I cited some years ago about subtle effects at very low levels were from the late nineties to early 21st, IIRC. http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1993/5/93.05.06.x.html#r [Has the 1991 CDC guidelines in addition to even more detail on lead poisoning and prevention.] I'm short on time today, but if you like I will see what PubMed has on crime/lead exposure, if anything. Debbi Colonel Mustard In The Library With The Lead Pipe Maru Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: No education in Florida
Ronn! Blankenship wrote: William T Goodall quoth: * 54 percent of men said humans evolved over millions of years compared with 35 percent of women. The difference being those women who have experience with men who they are very sure haven't evolved at all . . . LOL I didn't think that! Nossir, not me! Debbi Plead The Fifth Maru ;) Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lead (was: Resending: Malaria in the world)
Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro wrote: Deborah Harrell wrote: snip The possible link between crime and lead levels is intriguing; articles on lead's harmful effects particularly WRT children have been posted previously... I am curious about this (lead tetraethyl) - crime link. Brazil was one of the first countries to ban lead (because of ethanol, whose octane rating is high), and we don't have nice numbers on crime. It was a paragraph from the posted article I was commenting on - I didn't actually do any digging myself. http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=932 ...The specific harms done by environmental lead are difficult to quantify. It is known that children are much more apt to absorb the neurotoxic metal than adults, and it is suspected to have stricken many children with behavior problems, learning difficulties, hyperactivity, and breathing complications. Even more troubling, a number of recent studies have shown a strong correlation between atmospheric lead levels and crime rates. A study published in the peer-reviewed journal Environmental Research, which used data spanning more than fifty years, reported a very strong association between the exposure of young children to lead, and crime rates twenty years later when they became young adults. This correlation holds true for a wide variety of locales, social conditions, and models of government. The sharp decline in US crime rates which began in the early 1990s dovetails perfectly with the reduction of leaded gasoline in the early 1970s; and other countries which followed suit saw similar declines, also delayed by twenty years. It seems that the lawmakers who claim credit for crime-reducing legislation during that time are probably misplacing their congratulations. In another study, Pittsburgh University researchers found that juvenile delinquents had lead levels four times higher on average than law-abiding adolescents... There have been several studies that show decreased IQ with even very low levels of lead in children; IIRC it was in the 2-4ug/dl range, with the grosser effects of lead poisoning manifesting at greater than ~40ug/dl. This is the Medline for laypersons page: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002473.htm ...Over time, even low levels of lead exposure can harm a child's mental development. The possible health problems get worse as the level of lead in the blood gets higher. Possible complications include: Reduced IQ Slowed body growth Hearing problems Behavior or attention problems Failure at school Kidney damage A more detailed article from the Mayo Clinic: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/lead-poisoning/FL00068 ...Lead levels in the blood are measured in micrograms per deciliter (mcg/dL). An unsafe level is 10 mcg/dL or higher a guideline set by the CDC. This was set in 1991; the articles I cited some years ago about subtle effects at very low levels were from the late nineties to early 21st, IIRC. http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1993/5/93.05.06.x.html#r [Has the 1991 CDC guidelines in addition to even more detail on lead poisoning and prevention.] I'm short on time today, but if you like I will see what PubMed has on crime/lead exposure, if anything. Debbi Colonel Mustard In The Library With The Lead Pipe Maru Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Per capita cost/value of infrastructure?
William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The deniers are practising religious thinking. They start from the desired conclusion and cherry pick and misrepresent evidence to support that desired conclusion. Just like creationists and other religious asshats. rolls eyes...again As all here know, I have no patience with deliberately ignorant fundamentalists of all ilk, but once again you are lumping together all believers. And even all conservative evangelicals are not in one camp: http://www.religionlink.org/tip_061017a.php ...Evangelical Christians - who wield power through their increasing numbers and political influence - made headlines by joining the many faith groups expressing concern about climate change. The Evangelical Climate Initiative - including megachurch pastors, presidents of Christian colleges, and other leaders - issued a manifesto called Climate Change: An Evangelical Call to Action. While liberal and moderate faith groups have long embraced environmental concerns, many conservative Christians have considered the scientific evidence inconclusive and called steps to reduce greenhouse gases unwarranted, detrimental and, in some cases, unrelated to religious obligation. Evangelical leaders' high-profile campaign against global warming, however, revealed that sharp disagreement still exists among some in this group. Experts say the divided opinions among evangelicals may be key to political action on global warming... ...'The Great Warming' [is a film] endorsed by religious groups including the Evangelical Environmental Network. Narrated by stars Keanu Reeves and Alanis Morissette, it includes an interview with Richard Cizik, vice president for governmental affairs of the National Association of Evangelicals and a major voice supporting creation care, a favored Christian term for environmental awareness and action. Cizik has written a letter on NAE letterhead that appears on the film's Web site urging churches to screen the film and join the campaign to reduce global warming. The producers are encouraging congregations of all persuasions to screen the film for their members... And what about Buddhists and Hindus who honor or revere Nature as manifestation of Creation or the Divine? Debbi Heretic Lutheran Gaian Deist Maru Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Per capita cost/value of infrastructure?
On 22 Feb 2008, at 21:43, Deborah Harrell wrote: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip The deniers are practising religious thinking. They start from the desired conclusion and cherry pick and misrepresent evidence to support that desired conclusion. Just like creationists and other religious asshats. rolls eyes...again As all here know, I have no patience with deliberately ignorant fundamentalists of all ilk, but once again you are lumping together all believers. And even all conservative evangelicals are not in one camp: My point was that this form of thinking can be used to support anything. Some will use it to support one thing, others its opposite. What none of them do is consider the evidence and decide based on that. Instead they pick a conclusion based on faith (based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof) and then try and bolster it with misinformation and illogic. Religion is Evil because it destroys rational discourse Maru. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lead (was: Resending: Malaria in the world)
Deborah Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I'm short on time today, but if you like I will see what PubMed has on crime/lead exposure, if anything. Well, not as short as I thought. This is the abstract of the 2002 study about bone lead levels and adjudicated delinquency: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12460653 ...This is a case-control study of 194 youths aged 12-18, arrested and adjudicated as delinquent by the Juvenile Court of Allegheny County, PA and 146 nondelinquent controls from high schools in the city of Pittsburgh. Bone lead was measured by K-line X-ray fluorescence (XRF) spectroscopy of tibia...Covariates entered into the model were race, parent education and occupation, presence of two parental figures in the home, number of children in the home and neighborhood crime rate. Separate regression analyses were also conducted after stratification on race. RESULTS: Cases had significantly higher mean concentrations of lead in their bones than controls (11.0+/-32.7 vs. 1.5+/-32.1 ppm). This was true for both Whites and African Americans... A 2001 study on lead levels in blood and 'antisocial' behaviors: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11792521?ordinalpos=1itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlusDrugs1 ... A prospective longitudinal birth cohort of 195 urban, inner-city adolescents recruited between 1979 and 1985 was examined. Relationships between prenatal and postnatal exposure to Pb (serial blood Pb determinations) and antisocial and delinquent behaviors (self- and parental reports) were examined. Prenatal exposure to Pb was significantly associated with a covariate-adjusted increase in the frequency of parent-reported delinquent and antisocial behaviors, while prenatal and postnatal exposure to Pb was significantly associated with a covariate-adjusted increase in frequency of self-reported delinquent and antisocial behaviors, including marijuana use. Use of marijuana itself by Cincinnati Lead Study (CLS) teens was strongly associated with all measures of delinquent and antisocial behavior. This prospective longitudinal study confirmed earlier clinical observations and recent retrospective studies that have linked Pb exposure with antisocial behavior in children and adolescents... Both of these were small (N 200), but I'd say justify larger studies to elaborate. Here's one of the 'Freakonomics' guy's take on the subject: http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/30/did-banning-lead-lower-crime/ [Boils down to 'possibly maybe.'] This summary of two articles has some graphs and numbers supporting the hypothesis: http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-10-28-lead-crime_N.htm ...a pair of studies by economist Rick Nevin that suggest the nation's violent-crime rate in the second half of the 20th century is closely tied to the widespread consumption of leaded gasoline... This is more detailed about Nevin's studies: http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2007/07/get-the-lead-ou.html Commentary by Peter Schaeffer, the eighth and ninth down, offers counterarguments that seem pretty sound to me, except for that about 'presumably lower lead levels in rural areas'; while rural kids no doubt had less car exhaust exposure, they very likely had increased gasoline/diesel fume exposure from refilling tractors and other farm equipment. I have no idea if diesel had lead in it, but I can state absolutely that you get fuel on you, your clothes, and inhale fumes while filling farm equipment from portable fuel containers. (Very nasty indeed, even being as careful as I can - watching me refuel would make any farm kid laugh at the sissy.) Also, farm kids did/do more chorework like painting and pesticide/herbicide application than their city-living counterparts. Debbi Use Of Borax Soap Maru :P Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lead (was: Resending: Malaria in the world)
growling Today seems to be my day for computer gremlins. Several of the URLs in my prior post have extraneous ... or even ...words. If you delete those and tap Enter, the proper article does arrive... Debbi Exasperation Excess Maru Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Per capita cost/value of infrastructure?
On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 2:24 PM, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My point was that this form of thinking can be used to support anything. Some will use it to support one thing, others its opposite. Ah, yes. We know. Did it have something to do with the per capita cost of infrastructure, or is this just becoming a standard reply to any question? Perhaps you were suggesting that religion should not be used to calculate the cost of infrastructure? Or what? Religion is Evil because it destroys rational discourse Maru. It certainly seems to have hijacked this thread. Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Per capita cost/value of infrastructure?
On 23 Feb 2008, at 00:56, Nick Arnett wrote: On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 2:24 PM, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My point was that this form of thinking can be used to support anything. Some will use it to support one thing, others its opposite. Ah, yes. We know. Did it have something to do with the per capita cost of infrastructure, or is this just becoming a standard reply to any question? The pernicious influence of religion infests the discussion of a great many topics. Perhaps you were suggesting that religion should not be used to calculate the cost of infrastructure? Or what? It shouldn't be used to calculate anything. Religion is Evil because it destroys rational discourse Maru. It certainly seems to have hijacked this thread. Asking the right questions is better than arguing about the answers to the wrong questions. Simplify Maru. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Per capita cost/value of infrastructure?
On Feb 22, 2008, at 6:05 PM, William T Goodall wrote: Religion is Evil because it destroys rational discourse Maru. It certainly seems to have hijacked this thread. Asking the right questions is better than arguing about the answers to the wrong questions. Actually, the right question would have been one that addresses the per capita cost and/or value of infrastructur, rather than yet another of your tiresome piss-posts about religion. As it is, your posts are the exact equivalent of someone habitually posting FIRST! to an online forum: It's repetitive, adds zero value to the discussion, and seems to satisfy only your need to interrupt the natural flow of the conversation. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Semantic pollution
'Theory' means something quite different in science than in the vernacular and despite the sheer idiocy of this confusion it continues to be one of the debating points of those trying to insinuate religion into education. Perhaps instead of trying to explain the difference scientists should just coin a new word for what they do that can't be so trivially misrepresented. 'Faith' in the vernacular has a range of meanings from hope to confidence. Everybody thinks those are good and so the religious meaning of faith (believing unsubstantiated bollocks) gets in through the back door. Linguistics Maru. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Per capita cost/value of infrastructure?
On 23 Feb 2008, at 02:26, Dave Land wrote: On Feb 22, 2008, at 6:05 PM, William T Goodall wrote: Religion is Evil because it destroys rational discourse Maru. It certainly seems to have hijacked this thread. Asking the right questions is better than arguing about the answers to the wrong questions. Actually, the right question would have been one that addresses the per capita cost and/or value of infrastructur, rather than yet another of your tiresome piss-posts about religion. As it is, your posts are the exact equivalent of someone habitually posting FIRST! to an online forum: It's repetitive, adds zero value to the discussion, and seems to satisfy only your need to interrupt the natural flow of the conversation. I think I add enormous value to the conversation. It's just a pity you can't see it yet. Most valuable contributor Maru. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Semantic pollution
On 23/02/2008, at 1:42 PM, William T Goodall wrote: 'Theory' means something quite different in science than in the vernacular and despite the sheer idiocy of this confusion it continues to be one of the debating points of those trying to insinuate religion into education. Perhaps instead of trying to explain the difference scientists should just coin a new word for what they do that can't be so trivially misrepresented. Or, do as the Florida standards just did - put scientific theory of in front of evolution, gravity, etc. Yay say local creationists, it says it's a theory. Oh crap, say the 'Discovery' Institute and others, that's buggered it up for us. W00t. Charlie. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Per capita cost/value of infrastructure?
On 23/02/2008, at 9:24 AM, William T Goodall wrote: My point was that this form of thinking can be used to support anything. Some will use it to support one thing, others its opposite. Anyone can do that, doesn't take religion. What none of them do is consider the evidence and decide based on that. Actually, some of them do. They may use the hey, we've got faith too bit in order to spread it, but at least *part* of their thinking is evidence based. Look at Ken Miller for a great example - Christian but one of the best lecturers on evolution. Instead they pick a conclusion based on faith (based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof) and then try and bolster it with misinformation and illogic. Not just the religious do that. There are plenty of non-religious anti- vaccination twats, HIV deniers and so on. Lack of critical thinking is a big issue, and religion does encourage that, but look after the critical thinking and the religion will look after itself. If the church is relegated to social club as it is in large parts of Europe, that's fine. Charlie. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Per capita cost/value of infrastructure?
On 23 Feb 2008, at 03:03, Charlie Bell wrote: Lack of critical thinking is a big issue, and religion does encourage that, but look after the critical thinking and the religion will look after itself. If the church is relegated to social club as it is in large parts of Europe, that's fine. Religion has a vested interest in discouraging critical thinking. Christianity The belief that some cosmic, Jewish zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree. Religion advocates use all the dirty tricks in the debating manual to promote their filthy disgusting lies. And they overcome their hatred for each other to band together to attack rationality since it threatens them all. Brotherhood of con-men Maru. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Per capita cost/value of infrastructure?
At 09:50 PM Friday 2/22/2008, William T Goodall wrote: Christianity The belief that some cosmic, Jewish zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree. That's only one version. And even a cursory perusal of the daily news suggests that plenty of people today seem to be possessed by an evil force regardless of whether they believe in original sin or in anything resembling religion at all . . . -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
On the Power of Religion
From Bank's new culture novel, _Matter_, no spoilers: A temple was worth a dozen barracks; a militia man carrying a gun could control a small unarmed crowd only for as long as he was present; however, a single priest could put a policeman inside the head of every one of their flock, for ever. Doug VFP Well Said ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Per capita cost/value of infrastructure?
== Traffic Woes and Light Derailments == == A Drama in Two Acts== == Act the First: Two PERSONS and a GODBOY in an elevator. Person 1: The other day I was stuck in traffic for nearly two hours. Sheesh! Person 2: Yeah, it's a real nightmare since the construction began. GodBoy: When I'm stuck in traffic I like to pray to Jesus! Person 1: I wonder if the plans they have for light rail will help. Person 2: Can you imagine the construction issues with *that*? GodBoy: I can't wait for light rail! Then I'll be able to sit and read the Bible instead of having to drive! Person 1: Actually I'd like to see more bike paths. Person 2: No joke! Less traffic congestion, less pollution, and a healthier population. Wins all around. GodBoy: When I ride my bike I listen to ChristGasm on my iPod! Person 1: Hey, man, do you have to turn everything we talk about into some kind of God or Jesus issue? Person 2: Yeah. This one-track-mind thing of yours gets pretty fuckin' old. It's like religion has fried your capacity to carry on a rational discussion about anything else. GodBoy: ...I'm going to pray for you. [Exit.] Act the Second: Two PERSONS and an ATHEIST in an elevator. Person 1: The other day I was stuck in traffic for nearly two hours. Sheesh! Person 2: Yeah, it's a real nightmare since the construction began. Atheist: They're just widening to road so the Jesus freaks can get to church more quickly. Person 1: I wonder if the plans they have for light rail will help. Person 2: Can you imagine the construction issues with *that*? Atheist: Can you imagine light rail filled with religious lunatics all spouting off about their god? Person 1: Actually I'd like to see more bike paths. Person 2: No joke! Less traffic congestion, less pollution, and a healthier population. Wins all around. Atheist: The thing I hate about bikes is all the damned Mormon missionaries. Sheesh! Person 1: Hey, man, do you have to turn everything we talk about into some kind of God or Jesus issue? Person 2: Yeah. This one-track-mind thing of yours gets pretty fuckin' old. It's like religion has fried your capacity to carry on a rational discussion about anything else. Atheist: ...At least I don't believe in god. [Exeunt. Curtain.] == Speaking as one atheist to another, William, seriously: You need to ease off. You're simply not helping the cause any more than if you were out tracting houses with the rest of the JWs at 7 AM on Saturday. I'd like to see you go for a week's worth of posts without once mentioning religion. Think you could manage that kind of a challenge? -- Warren Ockrassa Blog | http://indigestible.nightwares.com/ Books | http://books.nightwares.com/ Web | http://www.nightwares.com/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
